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Tags Afghanistan issues , afghanistan war , taliban , US-Afghanistan relations

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Old 15th August 2021, 01:18 PM   #1
Hercules56
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Maybe Afghanistan wants the Taliban

Maybe we should stop demanding that the people of Afghanistan choose OUR way of doing things. Maybe they want the Taliban. Or maybe they just don't give a ****.

And if THEY don't give a ****, why should we? Why should we fight for freedom for a people who don't want it, and surely not fighting for it?

This is clearly a situation of "help us help you", and they just don't care.
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Old 15th August 2021, 01:20 PM   #2
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And if they only want freedom if someone else is going to protect it for them, then I guess they don't actually want it.
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Old 15th August 2021, 02:12 PM   #3
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It's not just about Afghansitan. The whole Islamic Militant movement around the world has just gotten a huge victory.
Your viewpoint it pretty short sighted, to say the least.
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Old 15th August 2021, 02:53 PM   #4
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's not just about Afghansitan. The whole Islamic Militant movement around the world has just gotten a huge victory.
Your viewpoint it pretty short sighted, to say the least.
LOL. There is no such thing as the "islamic militant movement".

Regardless, we can also bomb the **** out of the Taliban from the air.

How many of YOUR children are you willing to send to Afghanistan, to fight a war that their own people won't fight? Are they the 51st state or something?

Is there ANY doubt that after 20 years and $120 billion, we did not give them more than enough training, intelligence and weaponry to successfully defend themselves against the Taliban?????

they gave up cause they dont believe in the fight. why the hell should I?
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:19 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
LOL. There is no such thing as the "islamic militant movement".

Regardless, we can also bomb the **** out of the Taliban from the air.

How many of YOUR children are you willing to send to Afghanistan, to fight a war that their own people won't fight? Are they the 51st state or something?

Is there ANY doubt that after 20 years and $120 billion, we did not give them more than enough training, intelligence and weaponry to successfully defend themselves against the Taliban?????

they gave up cause they dont believe in the fight. why the hell should I?
God, that is incredibly ignorant.
But you have one rack mind, I see.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Maybe we should stop demanding that the people of Afghanistan choose OUR way of doing things. Maybe they want the Taliban. Or maybe they just don't give a ****.

And if THEY don't give a ****, why should we? Why should we fight for freedom for a people who don't want it, and surely not fighting for it?

This is clearly a situation of "help us help you", and they just don't care.
No, I don't think so, the Taliban have no real democratic legitimacy.
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Old 15th August 2021, 05:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I don't think so, the Taliban have no real democratic legitimacy.
Considering that Government officials pretty much signed the country over to them without a shot being fired in most cases, I'd say that they do seem to want them, or at least are unwilling to fight not to have them.
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Old 15th August 2021, 05:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Maybe we should stop demanding that the people of Afghanistan choose OUR way of doing things.
Maybe our way is better.
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Old 15th August 2021, 07:20 PM   #9
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I'd say it's mainly because nobody felt like dying for a thoroughly corrupt and incompetent government. The same reason that South Vietnam collapsed. A smaller but dedicated force of fighters will almost always beat a larger but dispirited army.
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Old 15th August 2021, 07:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe our way is better.
That's one idea the West seems to have lost sight of, in its quest to be even better.
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Old 15th August 2021, 07:51 PM   #11
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Think it is probably more a case of not having a choice now the US has run away with their tails between their legs again.
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Old 15th August 2021, 09:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'd say it's mainly because nobody felt like dying for a thoroughly corrupt and incompetent government. The same reason that South Vietnam collapsed. A smaller but dedicated force of fighters will almost always beat a larger but dispirited army.
True, but it is going to be like Vietnam in that what the Afghans get might be wrose then then what they had, however inept and corrupt it was.
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Old 15th August 2021, 09:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think it is probably more a case of not having a choice now the US has run away with their tails between their legs again.
What were they supposed to do? Stay there forever? Their mission was successfully completed years ago. Afghanistan has had 18 years to rebuild into something that was capable of withstanding the Taliban. They didn't do it and clearly don't want to do it.
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Old 15th August 2021, 10:51 PM   #14
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What the Afghani don't want is a central government. The Taliban are at least tribal and local, which means that, whichever way their settle disputes, at least they are aware of the local conditions.
The same could not be said about the US supported government in Kabul.
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Old 15th August 2021, 10:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What the Afghani don't want is a central government. The Taliban are at least tribal and local, which means that, whichever way their settle disputes, at least they are aware of the local conditions.
The same could not be said about the US supported government in Kabul.
Where did you get this idea from?

Are they all agreed on this?
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Old 15th August 2021, 11:03 PM   #16
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Where did you get this idea from?

Are they all agreed on this?
From everything I've read and seen - yes. The Kabul government was seen as ineffectual, corrupt and out-of-touch, not interested in anything beyond the major cities.
Whatever good that was done did not came from the central government, but from aid organizations and foreign forces.

The reason being that a central government isn't capable of collecting and redistributing taxes. Afghanistan just isn't a nation state.
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Old 15th August 2021, 11:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
From everything I've read and seen - yes. The Kabul government was seen as ineffectual, corrupt and out-of-touch, not interested in anything beyond the major cities.
Whatever good that was done did not came from the central government, but from aid organizations and foreign forces.

The reason being that a central government isn't capable of collecting and redistributing taxes. Afghanistan just isn't a nation state.
Well, I think that yes there is probably agreement that the central government is corrupt and useless and that it should be replaced with something "better", but now the Taliban have to prove they are that, and of course they won't. So they will end up in the same position as the central government is now, unable to run a country and not speaking for everyone in the country, becoming reviled by various groups and factions, and then civil war.
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Old 15th August 2021, 11:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but it is going to be like Vietnam in that what the Afghans get might be worse then then what they had, however inept and corrupt it was.
Vietnam is doing just fine after the end of French colonialism and US intervention:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE
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Old 15th August 2021, 11:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, I think that yes there is probably agreement that the central government is corrupt and useless and that it should be replaced with something "better", but now the Taliban have to prove they are that, and of course they won't. So they will end up in the same position as the central government is now, unable to run a country and not speaking for everyone in the country, becoming reviled by various groups and factions, and then civil war.
I think that it will be quite possible it will turn out something like this.

Twenty years ago the fall of the Taliban was very quick after the west started attacking them and the Northern Alliance started their offensive.

Now, twenty years later Afghan people seem to have forgotten how it was under the Taliban, but they do seem to know that what they had in the last years certainly was not how they wanted to be governed.

And thus the Taliban is more or less welcomed back. Maybe not welcomed as such, but seeing them as a better alternative than what was untill recently, the government in kabul.

I think the biggest mistake the west made was going too far too fast in changing their society. Yes we do, tend to, have more democratic and personal freedom, than what do did have over there. But was that really what they aspired to, or wanted as a people (of course there are individual exceptions)?
At heart, Afghanistan, and a lot of other countries there, are very, very religious and conservative.

Maybe helping Afghanistan into a country whose government looked like they had in Iran during the Khomeiny years would have been better? I tend to think this would have been more acceptable to the Afghani people and thus hopefully more longer lasting, than what they had during the last 20 years.
Yes, this is far, far away from western values, but Iran under Khomeiny was much more 'free' than Aghanistan was, and most likely will be, under the Taliban. If that was acceptable to the Afghan people, maybe in due time they would have slowly opened up. Like even Iran is doing right now.

But taking that option would have been absolutely impossible to do by a western power. So we'll never know.

At the moment, the Taliban are in even firmer control of the country than they were twenty years ago, as I don't see a strong Northern Alliance type of counter at this moment.
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Old 16th August 2021, 04:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that Government officials pretty much signed the country over to them without a shot being fired in most cases, I'd say that they do seem to want them, or at least are unwilling to fight not to have them.
The Taliban have a fearsome reputation. Maybe surrender is the best way to stop tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians from being slaughtered.

I understand that Ghengis Khan sometimes offered a similar deal, surrender or be put to the sword.
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Old 16th August 2021, 04:33 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The Taliban have a fearsome reputation. Maybe surrender is the best way to stop tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians from being slaughtered.

I understand that Ghengis Khan sometimes offered a similar deal, surrender or be put to the sword.
Since it seems that most of the officials that surrendered were paid to do so...
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Old 16th August 2021, 04:33 AM   #22
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They love the "submission" aspect of Islam - so yeah, kowtowing is a reasonable response to a probable Taliban takeover.
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Old 16th August 2021, 04:57 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
They love the "submission" aspect of Islam - so yeah, kowtowing is a reasonable response to a probable Taliban takeover.
While it's going to be the everyday people that suffer and a lot aren't wanting it, the local authorities basically handed over their cities for money and promise that if they joined they could carry on being the officials. Same job different masters. Does help that the whole system was corrupt and Kabul wasn't paying its bills. Apparently, a lot of the police in the other lying providence hadn't been paid in six months, so when the Taliban turned up waving cash they were more than happy to give the towns over to them.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
While it's going to be the everyday people that suffer and a lot aren't wanting it, the local authorities basically handed over their cities for money and promise that if they joined they could carry on being the officials. Same job different masters. Does help that the whole system was corrupt and Kabul wasn't paying its bills. Apparently, a lot of the police in the other lying providence hadn't been paid in six months, so when the Taliban turned up waving cash they were more than happy to give the towns over to them.
Send the people In charge to Prison or deport them back to Afghanistan and the next time there will be a lot less couption from governments we aid!
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:10 AM   #25
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The people who care aren't soldiers. The question of what happened to the hypothetical "army" doesn't have much to do with what the general population wants.

Or maybe you expected them to charge the Taliban and get mowed down to show how much they want freedom?
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:15 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Send the people In charge to Prison or deport them back to Afghanistan and the next time there will be a lot less couption from governments we aid!
The people that are corrupt are already in Afghanistan for the most part, they just switched teams when they saw which way the wind was blowing and were offered piles of cash.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:34 AM   #27
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Not sure if this is the place, but is anyone else shocked by the images of Taliban fighters using American Humvees, trucks and small arms?



I guess “shocked” may not be the right word, due to the inevitability when a withdrawal is so disorganized. I guess “outraged” might be better, since our tax dollars were spent on devices of war which may now be used to round up and imprison and possibly execute those guilty of religious crimes.

Maybe my inability to settle on a word to express my feelings best expresses my feelings.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The people who care aren't soldiers. The question of what happened to the hypothetical "army" doesn't have much to do with what the general population wants.

Or maybe you expected them to charge the Taliban and get mowed down to show how much they want freedom?
The Army was supposed to have 300,000 Troops.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Maybe my inability to settle on a word to express my feelings best expresses my feelings.
In those cases it's best to just make one up.

Outrangpointed. Outranged, angry and disappointed.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:41 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The people who care aren't soldiers. The question of what happened to the hypothetical "army" doesn't have much to do with what the general population wants.

Or maybe you expected them to charge the Taliban and get mowed down to show how much they want freedom?
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Not sure if this is the place, but is anyone else shocked by the images of Taliban fighters using American Humvees, trucks and small arms?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...55e03a6f_z.jpg

I guess “shocked” may not be the right word, due to the inevitability when a withdrawal is so disorganized. I guess “outraged” might be better, since our tax dollars were spent on devices of war which may now be used to round up and imprison and possibly execute those guilty of religious crimes.

Maybe my inability to settle on a word to express my feelings best expresses my feelings.
No the Peace deal was negotiated By Donald John Trump, so nothing about it going bad surprises me.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:44 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's not just about Afghansitan. The whole Islamic Militant movement around the world has just gotten a huge victory.
Your viewpoint it pretty short sighted, to say the least.
Trouble is it's short sighted in both directions. It's not that you're wrong BUT, the history of folks trying to occupy and control Afghanistan has never ended well for the French, the Brits or the Soviets before us. We should have been a better student of history.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:47 AM   #32
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This just popped up on my Twitter feed.



I can’t verify the authenticity, but if correct it’s quite relevant to this thread.

We view a public stoning to death for adultery as an atrocity, but do most Afghans see it as justice? I recall soccer stadiums were used for such executions. Sadly, maybe this will fill the seats once again.
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Old 16th August 2021, 05:58 AM   #33
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https://twitter.com/TOLOnews/status/...695997442?s=20
Here is a short video of people clinging to the side of a US aircraft as it tries to leave Afganistan.
There is another showing people falling from it after it had taken off.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:03 AM   #34
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Horrific.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I recall soccer stadiums were used for such executions.
It's certainly more entertaining than soccer!

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Old 16th August 2021, 06:08 AM   #36
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Inappropriate and not funny.

Please consider deleting.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
Trouble is it's short sighted in both directions. It's not that you're wrong BUT, the history of folks trying to occupy and control Afghanistan has never ended well for the French, the Brits or the Soviets before us. We should have been a better student of history.
I'm not aware of the French being particularly active in Afghanistan, apart from being part of the coalition forces.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:24 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Inappropriate and not funny.
Appropriate humour is rarely particularily funny.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
This just popped up on my Twitter feed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f7bfa955_z.jpg

I can’t verify the authenticity, but if correct it’s quite relevant to this thread.
... and if it just pops up in your Twitter feed without accrediting any source, my view is that it is 98% BS.
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Old 16th August 2021, 06:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'd say it's mainly because nobody felt like dying for a thoroughly corrupt and incompetent government. The same reason that South Vietnam collapsed. A smaller but dedicated force of fighters will almost always beat a larger but dispirited army.
Thanks much.

Quite well said indeed.
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