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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 3rd June 2021, 03:28 PM   #1801
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Establishing an ethnostate for the purpose of preserving an ethnic group does not require believing that group is superior to others, the way white supremacists believe that whites are superior to other. Nor is privileging that ethnicity within their ethnostate the same as believing that that ethnicity should be globally supreme over all others. So when you use the racial supremacy language, I call it a lie.
How about a race that claims that they are the chosen people of the one true god? Maybe just a hint of supremacism there?
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Old 3rd June 2021, 05:05 PM   #1802
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
How about a race that claims that they are the chosen people of the one true god? Maybe just a hint of supremacism there?
Jews are proud of the fact that we were 'chosen' by God to receive the Torah (laws given to Moses) and to this day we maintain a faithful and stringent connection to the Torah.
(See: Shavuot, just celebrated last month)
As far as I know, that is the primary meaning of 'chosen' --- your mileage may vary.

Also, keep in mind that both Christianity and Islam both recognize that Jews are the "People of the Book" أهل الكتاب‎, ahl al-kitāb -- Mohammed and Jesus both understood that Jews have accepted God's revealed teaching or guidance for humankind.

Now, where is the 'supremacism' in that?
I think you need to avoid placing stuff in a skeptics forum that doesn't conform to the facts.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 07:35 PM   #1803
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
How about a race that claims that they are the chosen people of the one true god? Maybe just a hint of supremacism there?
Not really. It seems to be viewed more as an obligation than a blessing.
http://www.satirewire.com/news/march02/chosen.shtml

It’s also a very ironic charge in regards to the current conflict, given how explicitly supremacist the Palestinian government is.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 09:53 PM   #1804
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
How about a race that claims that they are the chosen people of the one true god? Maybe just a hint of supremacism there?
You're giving me that Henri McPhee vibe... Memories.
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Old 4th June 2021, 10:10 AM   #1805
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You're giving me that Henri McPhee vibe... Memories.
So others offered up explanations as to why the Jewish claim to be the chosen people is not a claim of supremacy and you offer up...that. Well done, lovely contribution.
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Old 4th June 2021, 10:13 AM   #1806
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not really. It seems to be viewed more as an obligation than a blessing.
http://www.satirewire.com/news/march02/chosen.shtml

Itís also a very ironic charge in regards to the current conflict, given how explicitly supremacist the Palestinian government is.
You know I had been tempted to go find that article and post a link at various points but the name of the site had faded away. Thanks for that.
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Old 4th June 2021, 10:54 AM   #1807
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So others offered up explanations as to why the Jewish claim to be the chosen people is not a claim of supremacy and you offer up...that. Well done, lovely contribution. : rolleyes :
Again, this is not a doctrine of racial biological superiority, such as is connoted by terms like "white supremacism" and "jewish supremacism". The goal of such rhetoric is not to debate the apartheid nature of the Israeli regime, but to paint the Israelis as neo-nazis.
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Old 4th June 2021, 11:05 AM   #1808
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So others offered up explanations as to why the Jewish claim to be the chosen people is not a claim of supremacy and you offer up...that. Well done, lovely contribution.
It's the truth. Part of my Chosen people, Jew supremacy package entitles me to tell bigots the truth.
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Old 6th June 2021, 03:42 AM   #1809
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
It's the truth. Part of my Chosen people, Jew supremacy package entitles me to tell bigots the truth.
Then I suggest you take it in for a service, cause its seeing bigots where none exists. I am perfectly happy to accept the correction that the Jews see being the chosen people as a duty or burden rather than a source of superiority. Of course you won't believe that statement because you know a bigot when you see one right?
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Old 6th June 2021, 03:51 AM   #1810
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Again, this is not a doctrine of racial biological superiority, such as is connoted by terms like "white supremacism" and "jewish supremacism". The goal of such rhetoric is not to debate the apartheid nature of the Israeli regime, but to paint the Israelis as neo-nazis.
Again I'm happy to accept that they see it as a sacred duty or burden rather than a source of superiority and I have mentioned in previous posts that Apartheid era South Africa is a better analogy than invoking Nazi Germany. Would you accept that belief in that duty, combined with the scarring effects of the Holocaust, have led a certain section of Israeli society to believe its acceptable to treat others as second class citizens to preserve the Jewish faith and carry out their duty to god? And that those people have disproportionate political influence courtesy of Israel's electoral system? I can't help but feel that if Israeli elections were run on a 'first past the post' system Israel's policies in the West Bank would be far mor moderate.
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Old 6th June 2021, 06:56 AM   #1811
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I can't help but feel that if Israeli elections were run on a 'first past the post' system Israel's policies in the West Bank would be far more moderate.

OK, let's roll the videotape.

1996-2001 had exactly that type of system in place during the thirteenth Knesset session (direct election of the Prime Minister).
(Source: WIKIPEDIA) Ehud Barak beat Netanyahu in the 1999 election. However, although Barak's One Israel alliance (an alliance of Labour, Gesher and Meimad) won more votes than any other party in the Knesset (Parliament) election, they garnered only 26 seats, the lowest ever by a winning party or alliance. Barak needed to put together a coalition with six smaller parties to form a government.
In early 2001, Barak resigned following the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada. However, the government was not brought down, and only elections for prime minister were necessary. In the election itself, Ariel Sharon of Likud comfortably beat Barak, taking 62.4% of the vote. However, because Likud only had 21 seats in the Knesset, Sharon had to form a national unity government. Following Sharon's victory, it was decided to do away with separate elections for prime minister and return to the previous system.

Just recently, in April, Netanyahu incorrectly asserted that a return to direct elections for PM ('first past the post' system) would result in him automatically being able to form a government.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...form-coalition

and
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/17163/pdf
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Old 6th June 2021, 09:36 AM   #1812
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I can't help but feel that if Israeli elections were run on a 'first past the post' system Israel's policies in the West Bank would be far more moderate.

OK, let's roll the videotape.

1996-2001 had exactly that type of system in place during the thirteenth Knesset session (direct election of the Prime Minister).
(Source: WIKIPEDIA) Ehud Barak beat Netanyahu in the 1999 election. However, although Barak's One Israel alliance (an alliance of Labour, Gesher and Meimad) won more votes than any other party in the Knesset (Parliament) election, they garnered only 26 seats, the lowest ever by a winning party or alliance. Barak needed to put together a coalition with six smaller parties to form a government.
In early 2001, Barak resigned following the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada. However, the government was not brought down, and only elections for prime minister were necessary. In the election itself, Ariel Sharon of Likud comfortably beat Barak, taking 62.4% of the vote. However, because Likud only had 21 seats in the Knesset, Sharon had to form a national unity government. Following Sharon's victory, it was decided to do away with separate elections for prime minister and return to the previous system.

Just recently, in April, Netanyahu incorrectly asserted that a return to direct elections for PM ('first past the post' system) would result in him automatically being able to form a government.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...form-coalition

and
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/17163/pdf
First past the post does not equate to direct elections for PM. I was referring to the UK electoral system.
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Old 6th June 2021, 11:41 AM   #1813
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Garrison, I was just using my own American English point-of-reference which is horse-racing terminology, the winner is the one leading at the finish line (a physical post).
They even need to place a camera at the post, in case of two (or more) horses reaching it almost simultaneously. 'Winning by a nose' is the phrase used when there's a Photo Finish.

Anyway, right now, there are many in Israel who are upset that our next Prime Minister is the head of a party with only 7 seats.

Personally, I'm pleased about the way Lapid and Bennett got this sorted out.
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Old 7th June 2021, 05:05 AM   #1814
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
First of all, the laws of the State of Israel have nothing in them pertaining to "superior classes" --- as it stands Arab citizens aren't even required to defend their country (no draft into the military for them). We Jews handle that; you're welcome.
Honestly baffled that you think a segregated draft is a sign of good treatment by the state.
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Old 7th June 2021, 06:48 AM   #1815
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Honestly baffled that you think a segregated draft is a sign of good treatment by the state.
Isn't it?

How is being drafted a good thing for you as an individual? How is being forced to do something you don't want to some sort of favoritism towards you?

And BTW, Israeli arabs who DO want to serve, can. You don't need to draft people who want to serve, you only have to draft people who don't want to.
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Old 7th June 2021, 12:08 PM   #1816
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I was in the IDF for nearly two decades (reservist duty -- a month out of every year).
Not my choice, but rather, a mandatory call-up that disrupted my life annually.
I've served under Arab commanders ('palestinian' Bedouins), also non-Jewish fellow soldiers, and of course women, too.

Did I EVER consider the non-Jews in Israel to be 'lesser' in any way? No. And I am pretty sure most Israelis don't, either.

Zigg has it right. IF the Arabs want to volunteer, they may, although they often face problems within their families and communities for doing so. (Bedouins, less so)
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Old 7th June 2021, 12:43 PM   #1817
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Isn't it?

How is being drafted a good thing for you as an individual? How is being forced to do something you don't want to some sort of favoritism towards you?

And BTW, Israeli arabs who DO want to serve, can. You don't need to draft people who want to serve, you only have to draft people who don't want to.
Historically speaking, countries did not exclude populations from military service as a kindness. Rather, exclusion is usually a reflection on the broader belief that certain types were not up to the challenge of service or were not of sufficient character to do so.

For example, while black soldiers did serve in apartheid South Africa in some numbers, only whites were subject to mandatory conscription. Seems like a pretty direct parallel to the IDF.
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:23 PM   #1818
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
It's the truth. Part of my Chosen people, Jew supremacy package entitles me to tell bigots the truth.
"I know we are your chosen people, Lord, but could'nt you choose someone else for a while"?

Tevye in "Fiddler On The Roof".
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:24 PM   #1819
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
How about a race that claims that they are the chosen people of the one true god? Maybe just a hint of supremacism there?
You really need to read a bit more about Judaism.
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:27 PM   #1820
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The "International Community" will throw Zionist Israel to the wolves first chance it gets. Israel will defend herself... win or lose.
I don't blame the Jews for being a bit skeptical about leaving their defense to outsiders given their history.
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Old 7th June 2021, 03:26 PM   #1821
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't blame the Jews for being a bit skeptical about leaving their defense to outsiders given their history.
Which is also why the Arabs are not drafted. Would you want other soldiers in YOUR unit who are on the ideological side of your enemy? Who sympathize with your enemy? Who actually want your enemy to win a war?
Or, looking at it another way, why should the IDF force Palestinian citizens into a position of having to fight their fellow Palestinians? It's a moral dilemma that the Israeli military faces, and they decided to not place the Arabs in that awkward position of having to go into battle against their kin.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/a...icials-n724586

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Old 7th June 2021, 04:37 PM   #1822
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Historically speaking, countries did not exclude populations from military service as a kindness.
Motive and effect are distinct. The effect is still a kindness, even if that isnít the motive.

Quote:
For example, while black soldiers did serve in apartheid South Africa in some numbers, only whites were subject to mandatory conscription. Seems like a pretty direct parallel to the IDF.
Women are not subject to draft in the US. Does that mean we treat women like South Africa treated blacks? Why would you draw the parallel to black in SA rather than women in the US? This is motivated reasoning on your part, not an actual useful insight.
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Old 7th June 2021, 04:43 PM   #1823
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The obligation to military service seems like the most dire responsibility any citizen can face. I can't see a draft as anything other than a woeful but necessary imposition on those subject to it. I can't see it as anything other than a kindness to those exempted. Even when the exemption is rooted in patronizing viewpoints or even outright mistrust, I still see it as a kindness. Simply because there's nothing kind about forcing people to fight and die for their country. Necessary? Perhaps. Morally sound? Perhaps. But kind? I just don't see it.

If exception from the draft is the anti-semite's definitive example of "apartheid" in Israel, then I'd say Israeli arabs have it pretty good. Certainly compared to middle class white American males, when it comes to the draft.
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Old 7th June 2021, 05:52 PM   #1824
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Bibi is playing the Trump card; claiming that the new govenrment is somehow fraudulent .
Not surprised.
Just went to the forums at the Jerusalem Post and appaled on the amount of hate in the forums,including a common belief that "Samaria and Judea" need to be somehow purged of the non Jews. I hope this is just small minority in Israel just making a lot of noise.
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Old 7th June 2021, 05:54 PM   #1825
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I have to wonder if Israel might be bettered served by going to a full time volunteer Military .
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Old 7th June 2021, 08:21 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
...
Just went to the forums at the Jerusalem Post and appalled on the amount of hate in the forums,including a common belief that "Samaria and Judea" need to be somehow purged of the non Jews. I hope this is just small minority in Israel just making a lot of noise.
I have followed the talkbacks on the JP for a while -- I really think those comments that are the most hateful and anti-Arab are coming from foreign agents who are using the Israeli media platforms to PRETEND to be virulently racist Jews, and are intended to make Jews appear like Nazis. Are there people in Israel who are anti-Arab? Sure. They even go so far as to chant "Death to Arabs" in the streets, especially after Arab attacks against Jews.
However, it is indeed a very very small minority (in England, for instance, these types of racist folks are exemplified in the 'football fans').
https://www.theguardian.com/football...ycle-be-broken
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Old 7th June 2021, 08:41 PM   #1827
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have to wonder if Israel might be better served by going to a full time volunteer Military .
The standing Army of the State of Israel is small. The entire force is less than 200,000 active-duty personnel (with about 110,000 conscripts).

It's the RESERVISTS who are the backbone of the IDF.
You think us older Israelis who have to leave our jobs and families for a month (each year until age 40) would volunteer to that disruption? Yeah, uh, that's a No.

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Old 8th June 2021, 04:56 AM   #1828
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Motive and effect are distinct. The effect is still a kindness, even if that isn’t the motive.



Women are not subject to draft in the US. Does that mean we treat women like South Africa treated blacks? Why would you draw the parallel to black in SA rather than women in the US? This is motivated reasoning on your part, not an actual useful insight.
There's a very strong argument that sexual discrimination in the US draft is an unconstitutional violation of civil rights that is rooted in patronizing views of women. I would not be surprised if such discrimination is abolished in the future.

You are surely aware that there has been a push by women to be allowed to serve in combat roles that they have historically been prohibited and this is sometimes seen as a women's rights issue.

It's a strange situation because most people see compulsory service in the military as a burden that they might prefer to avoid, but it still reveals the attitudes of how the state views the various populations it governs.
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Old 8th June 2021, 08:33 AM   #1829
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's a very strong argument that sexual discrimination in the US draft is an unconstitutional violation of civil rights that is rooted in patronizing views of women. I would not be surprised if such discrimination is abolished in the future.
And that's relevant to your attempt to equate Israel with South African apartheid... how?

Quote:
You are surely aware that there has been a push by women to be allowed to serve in combat roles that they have historically been prohibited and this is sometimes seen as a women's rights issue.
Strangely enough, draft eligibility isn't seen as a women's rights issue. Why?

Because there's a difference between being allowed to do something and being forced to do it. Nobody wants to be forced to do something, even if they want to be allowed to do that same thing.

Now see if you can figure out the relevance of this to your actual original claims, which weren't about the US and women, but about Israel and arab citizens.
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Old 8th June 2021, 08:39 AM   #1830
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And that's relevant to your attempt to equate Israel with South African apartheid... how?



Strangely enough, draft eligibility isn't seen as a women's rights issue. Why?

Because there's a difference between being allowed to do something and being forced to do it. Nobody wants to be forced to do something, even if they want to be allowed to do that same thing.

Now see if you can figure out the relevance of this to your actual original claims, which weren't about the US and women, but about Israel and arab citizens.
You're the one that brought up women draftees in the US, I'm not sure why you're complaining it's a poor analogy.

My point remains a simple one. Racial and ethnic exemption from military service is a "kindness" almost always motivated by deep animus. The analogy to South Africa is a direct parallel. In both systems, the privileged classes (Jews or white South Africans) are required to participate in military oppression of the undesirable classes (Arabs and black South Africans). The reasons for not requiring the oppressed classes to participate in the military are obvious.

It would be a major crisis for Israel if every Palestinian was trained and armed by the military, obviously they are not going to be drafted.
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Old 8th June 2021, 09:01 AM   #1831
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You're the one that brought up women draftees in the US, I'm not sure why you're complaining it's a poor analogy.
Draftees. Not voluntary combat roles. I was talking the former, you switched to the latter as if that was comparable. It's not.

Quote:
My point remains a simple one. Racial and ethnic exemption from military service is a "kindness" almost always motivated by deep animus.
Again, motive is not effect. Of all the things South Africa did wrong, not drafting blacks doesn't even make the list.

I find that when people need to appeal to motives in order to attack something, rather than the actual effects, their position is invariably weak.

Quote:
The analogy to South Africa is a direct parallel. In both systems, the privileged classes (Jews or white South Africans) are required to participate in military oppression of the undesirable classes (Arabs and black South Africans).
Nice sleight of hand. The Israeli military doesn't oppress Israeli arab citizens.

Quote:
It would be a major crisis for Israel if every Palestinian was trained and armed by the military, obviously they are not going to be drafted.
More sleight of hand, but even cruder this time. Israeli arab citizens are not Palestinian. Suggesting that Palestinians should be eligible for the draft in Israel is like saying Chinese citizens should be eligible for the draft in the US. No. That's stupid.
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Old 8th June 2021, 09:06 AM   #1832
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Draftees. Not voluntary combat roles. I was talking the former, you switched to the latter as if that was comparable. It's not.



Again, motive is not effect. Of all the things South Africa did wrong, not drafting blacks doesn't even make the list.

I find that when people need to appeal to motives in order to attack something, rather than the actual effects, their position is invariably weak.



Nice sleight of hand. The Israeli military doesn't oppress Israeli arab citizens.



More sleight of hand, but even cruder this time. Israeli arab citizens are not Palestinian. Suggesting that Palestinians should be eligible for the draft in Israel is like saying Chinese citizens should be eligible for the draft in the US. No. That's stupid.
Right, the Israeli state has simply made the vast majority of Palestinians stateless non-citizens. The ultimate expression of apartheid, huge swaths of Palestinians will be born, live short lives, and die in a country that doesn't recognize them as citizens.
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Old 8th June 2021, 09:17 AM   #1833
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Right, the Israeli state has simply made the vast majority of Palestinians stateless non-citizens. The ultimate expression of apartheid, huge swaths of Palestinians will be born, live short lives, and die in a country that doesn't recognize them as citizens.
Wait... are you saying that Gaza and the West Bank actually belong to Israel?

Wow. I didn't figure you for a hard core Zionist.
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Old 8th June 2021, 09:28 AM   #1834
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wait... are you saying that Gaza and the West Bank actually belong to Israel?

Wow. I didn't figure you for a hard core Zionist.
It is de facto a occupied territory and has been for decades. It surely doesn't operate with any meaningful sovereignty, don't you agree?
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Old 8th June 2021, 11:24 AM   #1835
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It is de facto a occupied territory and has been for decades. It surely doesn't operate with any meaningful sovereignty, don't you agree?
That wasn't your claim. And you also claimed Israel made them stateless. But that's obviously false. Egypt and Jordan made them stateless.
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Old 8th June 2021, 12:16 PM   #1836
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I have followed the talkbacks on the JP for a while -- I really think those comments that are the most hateful and anti-Arab are coming from foreign agents who are using the Israeli media platforms to PRETEND to be virulently racist Jews, and are intended to make Jews appear like Nazis. Are there people in Israel who are anti-Arab? Sure. They even go so far as to chant "Death to Arabs" in the streets, especially after Arab attacks against Jews.
However, it is indeed a very very small minority (in England, for instance, these types of racist folks are exemplified in the 'football fans').
https://www.theguardian.com/football...ycle-be-broken
I wonder how many of them are Trumpers in the US pretending to be Israelis?
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Old 8th June 2021, 12:18 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The standing Army of the State of Israel is small. The entire force is less than 200,000 active-duty personnel (with about 110,000 conscripts).

It's the RESERVISTS who are the backbone of the IDF.
You think us older Israelis who have to leave our jobs and families for a month (each year until age 40) would volunteer to that disruption? Yeah, uh, that's a No.
I know that, but have a general skepticism about how a mass conscription army would work nowdays,
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Old 9th June 2021, 07:03 AM   #1838
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Right, the Israeli state has simply made the vast majority of Palestinians stateless non-citizens. The ultimate expression of apartheid, huge swaths of Palestinians will be born, live short lives, and die in a country that doesn't recognize them as citizens.
Exactly there is simply no way to form two seperate states there, they are about as seperate and independant as the Bantustans in South Africa were.
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Old 9th June 2021, 07:48 AM   #1839
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I know that, but have a general skepticism about how a mass conscription army would work nowdays,
Well, you have an actual working example: Israel. A mass of conscripted reserves, who show up each year for their month of service. And there's little indication they wouldn't show up en masse for the duration, if a major war broke out between Israel and its neighbors.
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Old 13th June 2021, 08:19 AM   #1840
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ziggurat noted (Upthread): "Israeli arab citizens are not Palestinian"

They often self-associate as such.
Bedouins, not so much.
Druze, also, no.

As for me being called up for IDF draft, it was not a huge imposition. We get those regular-as-clockwork draft notices (call-up assembly orders) and just grab our boots from under the bed, and go.
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