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Tags benjamin netanyahu , corruption scandals , Israel issues , Israel politics , politics scandals

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Old 21st November 2019, 11:41 AM   #1
plague311
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Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu will be indicted on charges of bribery, fraud...

Pretty huge announcement out of Israel:

Quote:
Charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust have been unveiled against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in three separate corruption cases, the Attorney General announced on Thursday evening, marking the first time in Israel's history that a sitting PM faces indictment in criminal investigations
This is going to cause some issues in US politics as well!
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Last edited by Agatha; 21st November 2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 21st November 2019, 11:52 AM   #2
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The surprise is 'untouchable' Netanyahu is not above the law after all.

He might still get off, though.
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Old 21st November 2019, 12:00 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The surprise is 'untouchable' Netanyahu is not above the law after all.

He might still get off, though.
Which would be extremely disappointing.
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Old 21st November 2019, 12:20 PM   #4
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I think the term is "Gonif".
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Old 21st November 2019, 12:30 PM   #5
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Bibi is playing "The Police done set me up" card.
Also there apparently is a growing revolt within Likud against Bibi.
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Old 21st November 2019, 02:08 PM   #6
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As someone who is basically sympathetic to Israel, and finds a lot of the Anti Zionism on thie forum to be pretty damn stupid, the sooner Bibi is gone the better. He has been a disaster for Israel. He has, frankly, been a huge asset for the Palestinian Extremists.
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Old 21st November 2019, 02:10 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As someone who is basically sympathetic to Israel, and finds a lot of the Anti Zionism on thie forum to be pretty damn stupid, the sooner Bibi is gone the better. He has been a disaster for Israel. He has, frankly, been a huge asset for the Palestinian Extremists.
Those were the policies that got him in and kept him there though, it isn't like his little corruption kickbacks benefited the Palestinian Extremists.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 04:30 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As someone who is basically sympathetic to Israel, and finds a lot of the Anti Zionism on thie forum to be pretty damn stupid, the sooner Bibi is gone the better. He has been a disaster for Israel. He has, frankly, been a huge asset for the Palestinian Extremists.
I have to confess I have always hated Netanyahu. Does that make you an anti Semite? What about if you think Likud has been a disaster for Israel? Make you anti Semitic? What if I say the electoral system of parties submitting lists leads to the election of unrepresentative swill? How long before I become an anti Semite?

As you can see I really want to bash some aspects of Israel’s political structure and foreign and domestic policy as much as I want to bash rocketfiring Hamas extremists without putting up with the slander....do you think it’s possible?
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:45 AM   #9
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I always liked hearing the newsreaders say "Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu". It has such a musical ring to it.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 05:34 PM   #10
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Poor Israel. They can now expect America's anti-corruption president to put a hold on all future aid.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 06:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Poor Israel. They can now expect America's anti-corruption president to put a hold on all future aid.
Oh, I'm sure that weapons will still be sent. After all, gotta have that sweet Armageddon so Fundie Jesus can come back!
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As someone who is basically sympathetic to Israel, and finds a lot of the Anti Zionism on thie forum to be pretty damn stupid, the sooner Bibi is gone the better. He has been a disaster for Israel. He has, frankly, been a huge asset for the Palestinian Extremists.
At the risk of starting the usual debate I won't get into, I think they used each other
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Old 23rd November 2019, 03:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Oh, I'm sure that weapons will still be sent. After all, gotta have that sweet Armageddon so Fundie Jesus can come back!
All I know is that if Pence is a legit theocrat, he almost definitely thinks Jesus wants the US to protect Israel, and somehow that will help Fundie Jesus come back and turn Earth into a Christian Theocracy. There's a rapture and an apocalypse in there somewhere, too, but there's no consensus on the timeline.
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Old 25th November 2019, 09:31 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
All I know is that if Pence is a legit theocrat
He isn't.
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Old 26th November 2019, 02:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I have to confess I have always hated Netanyahu. Does that make you an anti Semite? What about if you think Likud has been a disaster for Israel? Make you anti Semitic? What if I say the electoral system of parties submitting lists leads to the election of unrepresentative swill? How long before I become an anti Semite?

As you can see I really want to bash some aspects of Israel’s political structure and foreign and domestic policy as much as I want to bash rocketfiring Hamas extremists without putting up with the slander....do you think it’s possible?
The working definition of anti-semitism allows for "sharp and vigorous criticism of Israel's government and policies".
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issu...JBI-Annex1.pdf

Of course, you knew this already, and were just being disingenuous. Do you think this will help the Palestinian Arab cause? Do you think this will help anything at all?
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The working definition of anti-semitism allows for "sharp and vigorous criticism of Israel's government and policies".
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issu...JBI-Annex1.pdf

Of course, you knew this already, and were just being disingenuous. Do you think this will help the Palestinian Arab cause? Do you think this will help anything at all?
I don’t think that’s the working definition used over the years on this forum by Likud apologists. But maybe you were not around for the show.
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Old 27th November 2019, 05:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He isn't.
Evidence?

I realise that your claim is a negative, but you seem pretty sure, so I'd like to know why.
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Old 27th November 2019, 08:08 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Evidence?

I realise that your claim is a negative, but you seem pretty sure, so I'd like to know why.
It's strange that you want to know why I think Pence isn't a theocrat, rather than why kellyb thinks he is. Him being one is by far the more remarkable claim.

But it's really rather simple. First, he hasn't shown any real signs of being a theocrat. Religious, sure. But that's far from sufficient to qualify as theocratic. Second, theocracy isn't really a thing in American politics. All those idiots dressing up in Handmaid's Tale dresses to protest Republicans? They seem to be blissfully unaware that the story wasn't a warning about what Republicans might do in the US, it was a warning about what was actually happening in Iran. Labeling a Republican as a theocrat is a cliche which only fools the gullible and paranoid.
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Old 27th November 2019, 08:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's strange that you want to know why I think Pence isn't a theocrat, rather than why kellyb thinks he is.
I'd certainly want to know if she thought that, but perhaps you didn't read her post very well.

Quote:
But it's really rather simple. First, he hasn't shown any real signs of being a theocrat. Religious, sure. But that's far from sufficient to qualify as theocratic.
So, simple lack of evidence, then? I've been told that you can't draw a conclusion based on that. Argument from ignorance, I think it's called.
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Old 27th November 2019, 08:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's strange that you want to know why I think Pence isn't a theocrat, rather than why kellyb thinks he is. Him being one is by far the more remarkable claim.

But it's really rather simple. First, he hasn't shown any real signs of being a theocrat. Religious, sure. But that's far from sufficient to qualify as theocratic. Second, theocracy isn't really a thing in American politics. All those idiots dressing up in Handmaid's Tale dresses to protest Republicans? They seem to be blissfully unaware that the story wasn't a warning about what Republicans might do in the US, it was a warning about what was actually happening in Iran. Labeling a Republican as a theocrat is a cliche which only fools the gullible and paranoid.
Do you have a source for your claim that the Handmaid's Tale was about events in Iran? Nothing I've read from Margaret Atwood about the gestation of the book mentions it.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So, simple lack of evidence, then? I've been told that you can't draw a conclusion based on that. Argument from ignorance, I think it's called.
Well, no. We're not ignorant of Pence's political beliefs. He isn't silent about the topic, because, get this, he's a politician. It's kind of their job to talk about what they want to achieve politically. And what he says doesn't indicate he's in favor of theocracy.

And while it is theoretically possible he's been fooling everyone his entire career about what he really believes, that possibility exists in principle for every politician. Nancy Pelosi could be a closet theocrat, if you want to consider everything that's possible. But it's not a possibility we have any reason to take seriously. It's basically a Russell's teapot threat of theocracy.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
Do you have a source for your claim that the Handmaid's Tale was about events in Iran? Nothing I've read from Margaret Atwood about the gestation of the book mentions it.
Not near at hand, can't remember where I ran into that. But the book was written shortly after the Iranian revolution, and events there match much more closely with the book than anything modern Christian right ever got close to in the US.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
Do you have a source for your claim that the Handmaid's Tale was about events in Iran? Nothing I've read from Margaret Atwood about the gestation of the book mentions it.
In her own words, she used real events and didn't include anything that wasn't true somewhere in the world. No single country was mentioned.

Not sure which country has handmaids, though, maybe the polygamous Mormons?
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:37 PM   #24
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Not sure if I am just cynical, but cant help wondering if he is worse than the others, or getting charged for it is just a sign of fall from power.
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Old 28th November 2019, 03:22 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, no. We're not ignorant of Pence's political beliefs. He isn't silent about the topic, because, get this, he's a politician. It's kind of their job to talk about what they want to achieve politically. And what he says doesn't indicate he's in favor of theocracy.

And while it is theoretically possible he's been fooling everyone his entire career about what he really believes, that possibility exists in principle for every politician. Nancy Pelosi could be a closet theocrat, if you want to consider everything that's possible. But it's not a possibility we have any reason to take seriously. It's basically a Russell's teapot threat of theocracy.
Fine, fine. That's reasonable. But, did you re-read Kelly's post to verify what she actually said? Hint: it all hinges on a two letter word.
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Old 28th November 2019, 05:41 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I don’t think that’s the working definition used over the years on this forum by Likud apologists. But maybe you were not around for the show.
Well, I started looking at this forum a few years before I joined. Didn't spot any 'Likud apologists' accusing anyone of anti-semitism when they were merely giving valid criticism that could apply to anyone- but memory can be fallible.
If you have any examples of this, it would be interesting.
Either way, that's obviously not the case now, so you can put your mind at rest.
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Old 29th November 2019, 06:26 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, I started looking at this forum a few years before I joined. Didn't spot any 'Likud apologists' accusing anyone of anti-semitism when they were merely giving valid criticism that could apply to anyone- but memory can be fallible.
If you have any examples of this, it would be interesting.
Either way, that's obviously not the case now, so you can put your mind at rest.
LOL....let me guess. It would be you that judges what is “valid criticism”?

I wont be spending any time providing examples for you to apply your pre prepared excuse to.
I would encourage you to take advantage of the forums excellent search system if you are interested in reviewing any of the posts you previously didn’t spot.....
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This is going to cause some issues in US politics as well!
Why would it do that?
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I have to confess I have always hated Netanyahu. Does that make you an anti Semite? What about if you think Likud has been a disaster for Israel? Make you anti Semitic? What if I say the electoral system of parties submitting lists leads to the election of unrepresentative swill? How long before I become an anti Semite?

As you can see I really want to bash some aspects of Israel’s political structure and foreign and domestic policy as much as I want to bash rocketfiring Hamas extremists without putting up with the slander....do you think it’s possible?
In my experience both on the JREF and other places on the internet is the one who whinges about being called an anti-Semite "just because" they disagree with Israeli policy, don't like Netenyahu, or Sharon is invariably the guy who goes on to promote actual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

Ones that stand out in my memory include the conspiracy theory that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and Euphrates rivers, indicating zionist secret plans to take all the lands between. Another is that the word "goy" means "cow" in Hebrew (it doesn't) and proves that Jews consider non-Jews to be the same as cattle. Also accusing Jewish people of dual loyalty or of having undue and secret control over US policy.

So, chances are if someone gets accused of anti-Semitism, it's not "just because" they criticized Netenyahu or Likud. It's very likely they have more thorny issues in their body of work, or will have very soon.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:10 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
LOL....let me guess. It would be you that judges what is “valid criticism”?
Lol! I think it's funny you take it for granted you and Cosmic Yak would disagree. Why do you think so?
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
LOL....let me guess. It would be you that judges what is “valid criticism”?
Who else would it be? There is no Bureau of Valid Criticism to whom we can appeal. We all have to decide for ourselves.
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Old 1st December 2019, 01:43 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, I started looking at this forum a few years before I joined. Didn't spot any 'Likud apologists' accusing anyone of anti-semitism when they were merely giving valid criticism that could apply to anyone- but memory can be fallible.
If you have any examples of this, it would be interesting.
Either way, that's obviously not the case now, so you can put your mind at rest.
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
LOL....let me guess. It would be you that judges what is “valid criticism”?
What a peculiar thing to say.
No, of course not. That's why I posted a commonly-accepted definition of anti-semitism, so it could be used as a framework to decide if the criticism was valid, or actually anti-semitic.
Then we could discuss it. I know I joined this forum after you, so maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that that was the point of this forum: to discuss things.
How you got from what I said to the idea that I'm somehow appointing myself as sole arbiter, or that I would automatically come down against you, is a mystery to me.
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I wont be spending any time providing examples for you to apply your pre prepared excuse to.
In other words, you can't actually cite any examples, and instead are resorting to accusing me of doing something I have not actually done, nor would I actually do.
Very poor.

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I would encourage you to take advantage of the forums excellent search system if you are interested in reviewing any of the posts you previously didn’t spot.....
Again, I newer here than you, but I'm fairly sure that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, which in this case would be you.
That, and Hitchens' Razor: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence". Pretty sure that's been mentioned here before too.
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
In my experience both on the JREF and other places on the internet is the one who whinges about being called an anti-Semite "just because" they disagree with Israeli policy, don't like Netenyahu, or Sharon is invariably the guy who goes on to promote actual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

Ones that stand out in my memory include the conspiracy theory that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and Euphrates rivers, indicating zionist secret plans to take all the lands between. Another is that the word "goy" means "cow" in Hebrew (it doesn't) and proves that Jews consider non-Jews to be the same as cattle. Also accusing Jewish people of dual loyalty or of having undue and secret control over US policy.

So, chances are if someone gets accused of anti-Semitism, it's not "just because" they criticized Netenyahu or Likud. It's very likely they have more thorny issues in their body of work, or will have very soon.
Probably got lots of examples to back this up? The blue stripes and the cow stuff? Who has professed that stuff on this forum?
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Old 5th December 2019, 02:19 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Probably got lots of examples to back this up? The blue stripes and the cow stuff? Who has professed that stuff on this forum?
Someone said something about finding posts on this forum. Who was it?
Oh, yes. It was you:

Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I wont be spending any time providing examples for you to apply your pre prepared excuse to.
I would encourage you to take advantage of the forums excellent search system if you are interested in reviewing any of the posts you previously didn’t spot.....
You now need to decide whether you agree with yourself or not.
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Old 5th December 2019, 04:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Someone said something about finding posts on this forum. Who was it?
Oh, yes. It was you:



You now need to decide whether you agree with yourself or not.
Sorry but you seem to not be paying attention one is asking for examples of fact....have people claimed two specific claims........the other is asking for examples that Require a judgement call if something is “valid criticism”

Your are not very good at this are you.....maybe Mycroft can coach you?
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Old 5th December 2019, 03:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Probably got lots of examples to back this up? The blue stripes and the cow stuff? Who has professed that stuff on this forum?
Unlike you, I think the search function on this board is terrible. You can find recent stuff and very old stuff, but good luck finding anything in the middle. Also, if you claim you never held any of these positions, if you care to disavow them I'll be happy to take your word for it.

In any case, you're actually the one who made the first claims here, so how about you find some examples where someone, anyone, was "slandered" for saying they don't like Netanyaho or Likud. I bet you can't find any.
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Old 5th December 2019, 03:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Unlike you, I think the search function on this board is terrible. You can find recent stuff and very old stuff, but good luck finding anything in the middle. Also, if you claim you never held any of these positions, if you care to disavow them I'll be happy to take your word for it.

In any case, you're actually the one who made the first claims here, so how about you find some examples where someone, anyone, was "slandered" for saying they don't like Netanyaho or Likud. I bet you can't find any.


The search function here is pretty bad.
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Old 5th December 2019, 03:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Probably got lots of examples to back this up? The blue stripes and the cow stuff? Who has professed that stuff on this forum?
Oh heck, I took a stab at it and found a guy spouting the stripes on the Israeli flag theory.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...71#post2587071

And I found one example of the Goyim means cattle too:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...29#post4242229

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Old 5th December 2019, 04:46 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The search function here is pretty bad.
[Off-topic]It's WAY better than the one at Cosmoquest, which can't find anything at all.[/Off-topic]
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Oh heck, I took a stab at it and found a guy spouting the stripes on the Israeli flag theory.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...71#post2587071

And I found one example of the Goyim means cattle too:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...29#post4242229
Quotes from magz and some banned Dude I’ve never heard of? Not surprised about that....but you say people that complain about being called an anti Semite for criticising Israel are “ invariably” people that also spout these silly theories about blue lines on flags and the meaning of the word goyim? Are you suggesting Magz and that banned guy are the only ones that are critical of Israel? This is the downside of slipping words like “invariably” into you claims.

If you want examples of slander maybe you could review the contributions to this forum by your old friend “skeptic” he was banned for repeatedly doing it.

Anyway...enough of the historic stuff. What day you think of Netanyahu’s recent problems?
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