IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , diseases

Closed Thread
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:55 AM   #641
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
You're going to see a lot more of them, it's going to be manadory from tomorrow. I drove through the village yesterday and every single person I saw on the pavement was wearing a mask even though they were outside. (I expect they were moving from shop to shop.) All the staff in the restaurant where I had a steak yesterday evening were wearing them and most diners had one on which they only removed when they were seated at their socially distanced table.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:00 AM   #642
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 49,957
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You're going to see a lot more of them,
Masks? Yes, of course.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:09 AM   #643
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 26,785
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You're going to see a lot more of them, it's going to be manadory from tomorrow. I drove through the village yesterday and every single person I saw on the pavement was wearing a mask even though they were outside. (I expect they were moving from shop to shop.) All the staff in the restaurant where I had a steak yesterday evening were wearing them and most diners had one on which they only removed when they were seated at their socially distanced table.
That's standard here right now. (And mandatory, here in Michigan, where we have a Democratic governor.) When I was in Home Depot three weeks ago, a lot of customers, up to I would say 25% had masks that were pulled down off their nose or completely off their nose and mouth. Last week when I went to Lowe's (basically the same sort of store) I didn't see that.

But for faces shields, it was just me. My wife and I are going to Costco tonight. I'll be wearing mine again. I think my wife will be, too. In addition to a mask.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 23rd July 2020 at 10:11 AM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:12 AM   #644
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,078
Sigh. After 14 consecutive days with no new cases weíve had 50 in the last week. Thatís still well under 10 cases per million people but I think there will be a couple months where it it will be a fight to keep things under control.
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"For the COVID-19 vaccine, we would need live tracking of every vial with all the storage and handling environment parameters with doubtless integrity and open accessibility by all stakeholders which can only be done with a decentralised open ledger."


Blockchain and distributed ledger technology will be essential for an equitable COVID-19 vaccine distribution. - World Economic Forum.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...d-make-history
It may or may not be a good fit but Blockchain isnít *essential* for anything. More often than not it just gets thrown in because it is (or until recently was) one of the cool new buzzwords.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:18 AM   #645
pipelineaudio
Illuminator
 
pipelineaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,869
Latest medcram has the TLDR on the latest TWIV which showed how we can immediately get back to work and school and whatever with 2 dollar, ten minute tests

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Sv_pS8MgQ
__________________
Don't fear the REAPER, embrace it

Last edited by pipelineaudio; 23rd July 2020 at 10:22 AM.
pipelineaudio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:37 AM   #646
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
Sure. Antigen ELISAs don't stop you catching the virus.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 11:33 AM   #647
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,945
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
This was the second post in the original thread:

Oops!
Don't feel too bad - there were worse efforts at that time.

Unlike the prescience of my post on 21 January:

Originally Posted by Legendary Commenter on Covid-19, long before it was namded
Looks to me like this one is well and truly out of the bag.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't talk to anyone when I go to the supermarket, unless I need to ask where something is. I use the hand scanner, so don't even need to go to the human-operated till.
Try doing that when you shop for a family of five!
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 12:13 PM   #648
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 49,957
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post





Try doing that when you shop for a family of five!
Not seeing a problem.

Iím not talking about self-scanning at the automatic checkout, but using a hand-held wand to scan each item as you put it in your trolley. Itís probably better for a large load, because you pack your bags as you go, so when youíve finished youíre ready to leave the shop.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 12:35 PM   #649
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,560
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Is that what they also meant by it inducing an immune response?
Yes. Antibodies are part of one's immune response.

Effective immunity is not guaranteed just because antibodies are produced.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:10 PM   #650
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 25,652
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Not seeing a problem.

Iím not talking about self-scanning at the automatic checkout, but using a hand-held wand to scan each item as you put it in your trolley. Itís probably better for a large load, because you pack your bags as you go, so when youíve finished youíre ready to leave the shop.
That's not an option at any store I've ever been to.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:12 PM   #651
JeanTate
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
That is 10% of who? I assume hospitalized patients? When 93% of us are asymptomatic, 10% of 7 percent is .7% tops.

I wonder how many have chronic effects from: Epstein-Barr, Chickenpox,.....
10% of those infected, whether the infection was "bad" (hospitalization, ICU, that sort of thing), "mild" (headache, cough, temperature, etc), or asymptomatic. Some recent posts by aduin (especially), Aridas, Myriad, and Planigale seem to be pointing - albeit anecdotally - to covid-19 being "long" for some significant %age of all infections.

Will likely take many more months for this to be studied rigorously, but these early indications are somewhat concerning at least.
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:24 PM   #652
Pixel42
SchrŲdinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,920
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's not an option at any store I've ever been to.
I know of just one (a massive Tesco).
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:24 PM   #653
JeanTate
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,001
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hi all. Dropping into this thread. This may have been covered recently, so I apologize if this is well worn territory, but I want to ask about face shields.

Here's an excerpt from a CNN article today:



So here is what I don't get. The second paragraph above clearly implies that face shields provide extra protection. Extra protection is good, right? We're all in on extra protection, aren't we? And if it's good enough for hospital workers, why wouldn't it be good enough for me?

When I go into stores these days, I wear a mask and a face shield. I think that means that both I and the people around me are better protected than if I wore just a mask. So far, I've never seen anyone else with a shield.

What's the deal with not recommending them? I get that maybe they don't provide a lot of benefit. I can say with certainty that they are uncomfortable and inconvenient, so I can understand why people wouldn't want to wear them, and might feel that the extra protection isn't worth the extra discomfort or inconvenience, but the guidance from CDC, expressed in that article and many others, seem to be saying that it's a bad idea to wear a face shield. Does anyone understand this?

ETA: And looking at the way I edited the original quote, the lack of recommendation doesn't seem as strong as it did in the original article. In the article, it really came across as "you shouldn't wear a face shield". I could understand a statement if it said something along the lines of, "You don't need a face shield, and above all do not substitute a shield for a mask, but a mask plus shield is better than a mask alone."
Some face shield anecdotes from Sandy Territory a.k.a. the tri-state area, hottest of global hotspots (perhaps surpassing Wuhan). Recently, where Rt<1.0.

On the street etc: an apparently random 10% or so wearing them.

Health-care settings: quite common, both heathcare workers (doctors, etc) and patients. Masks mandatory*, but apparently not face sheilds.

Variety! From a super-deluxe, motor-bike-like one to obviously cheap and cheerful DIY.

*cool! I saw a patient with an N95-like mask with a valve (protects the wearer, but not anyone else if the wearer is breathing out viruses) being asked to don a cloth mask over the valve.
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:31 PM   #654
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,560
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I would like to see something more official and detailed than a Facebook post. I would sincerely like to see my pessimism re an effective vaccine proved wrong but this does nothing to alleviate my concerns.
There's plenty of early research out there. Did you look?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:39 PM   #655
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 9,862
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's plenty of early research out there. Did you look?
Yes. I looked at the Lancet article that ohms referred me to. Then I commented on it.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:44 PM   #656
JeanTate
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,001
~47% of the world's people live in China, India, the EU1, or the US.

Per yesterday's WHO report:
- ~45% of covid-19 cases are in these four places
- ~58% of the deaths
-> deaths/case ~5.3% cf ~4.1% for the whole world
- range is ~2.4% (India) to ~11.1% (EU)

(to be continued)

1Including the UK
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:58 PM   #657
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,945
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Not seeing a problem.

Iím not talking about self-scanning at the automatic checkout, but using a hand-held wand to scan each item as you put it in your trolley.
Not available anywhere I know of. Other comments seem to show it's not common.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:17 PM   #658
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 49,957
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's not an option at any store I've ever been to.
Really? I thought the US had technology ahead of the rest of the world.

I use it at Tesco and Waitrose; not sure which other supermarkets have it. Here’s the details about the Tesco version (Waitrose is pretty much identical).

https://secure.tesco.com/clubcard/scan-as-you-shop

ETA: Sainsbury’s, too, and Asda.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20

Last edited by zooterkin; 23rd July 2020 at 02:19 PM.
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:18 PM   #659
Capsid
Graduate Poster
 
Capsid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,817
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not available anywhere I know of. Other comments seem to show it's not common.

Been using this for nearly a year.

https://smartshop.sainsburys.co.uk/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Capsid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:33 PM   #660
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
Self-scan? It's been available in the bigger supermarkets for ages. Even our wee village Co-op has one.

I hate it.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:51 PM   #661
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,261
I finally got my blood test results (drawn 10 days ago). Surprise! I didn't have Covid-19. I had (have) Lyme disease instead. Which was a possibility I considered, and even mentioned in some of my posts about my symptoms, but I didn't think it was likely because I wasn't aware of any tick bite, and I didn't have the one most common Lyme symptom, a skin rash. Plus there's a freakin' pandemic of that other thing going on! But, reality overrules all those reasons for suspecting otherwise.

It's another disease with possible long-term after-effects, so I don't seem to be much better or worse off either way. It would be nice to have turned out to be Covid immune now (even if for only a few months), but on the other hand, I don't have to worry that I might have unknowingly infected anyone else. (There's no lasting immunity to Lyme, but you can't spread it to others.)
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:53 PM   #662
Capsid
Graduate Poster
 
Capsid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,817
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Self-scan? It's been available in the bigger supermarkets for ages. Even our wee village Co-op has one.

I hate it.

No, this is different. You scan as you go.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Capsid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 03:02 PM   #663
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Wouldn't China have a number of factors going for it in producing and testing a vaccine?

Mainly I'm thinking about how the CCP would probably have no compunction at all about testing using human subjects believed to have a low social worth, such as Ugyhurs, many of whom are confined to concentration camps. China might have an ability to get things done because it doesn't have an embedded culture of respect for individual rights. So, no problem vaccinating someone, then exposing them deliberately to high levels of virus. No review or consent needed. It could also harvest plasma at will and see how that works as treatment or prophylaxis. If the disease starts to again run amok in a given region China can contain it by decrees that could go further than US or EU standards.

Do they have standards that restrict the way human trials are run? I kind of doubt it.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 03:18 PM   #664
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 26,785
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Really? I thought the US had technology ahead of the rest of the world.
I remember when that was true.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 03:50 PM   #665
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
No, this is different. You scan as you go.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oh, that? Yes I've seen that too.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 03:59 PM   #666
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I finally got my blood test results (drawn 10 days ago). Surprise! I didn't have Covid-19. I had (have) Lyme disease instead. Which was a possibility I considered, and even mentioned in some of my posts about my symptoms, but I didn't think it was likely because I wasn't aware of any tick bite, and I didn't have the one most common Lyme symptom, a skin rash. Plus there's a freakin' pandemic of that other thing going on! But, reality overrules all those reasons for suspecting otherwise.

It's another disease with possible long-term after-effects, so I don't seem to be much better or worse off either way. It would be nice to have turned out to be Covid immune now (even if for only a few months), but on the other hand, I don't have to worry that I might have unknowingly infected anyone else. (There's no lasting immunity to Lyme, but you can't spread it to others.)

If you get diagnosed and treated early there's a good chance of not suffering longterm after-effects from Lyme. It's undiagnosed Lyme that gets to the tertiary stage that's the nasty, especially if the patient has been treated with steroids in the belief they have something auto-immune. Doxycycline is pretty good stuff.

The bulls-eye rash only appears in 50% of patients they say, but I don't know how they can tell because it doesn't last long, it can be difficult to see (immediately after a bath or shower is a good time) and if it's on your back you may not see it even if it's prominent. (That's primary Lyme, secondary is feeling like you have flu, and tertiary is the arthritis-like symptoms and so on.)

And immunity isn't that bad. It's been said that if you want to get immune to Lyme, go for a walk in the New Forest, don't take the doxycycline when you see the bulls-eye rash, wait till you feel like you have flu, then take the doxycycline, because you have to leave it that long to get the immune response. The doxycycline will clear the Borrelia and you'll be immune.

This only works (if it does, it's scuttlebutt from immunologists at Southampton General Hospital and GPs in the New Forest) because the ticks in England have only about a tenth of the number of Borrelia organisms as are seen in New England, and the strain of Borrelia is much less virulent. Do not try this in America.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 23rd July 2020 at 04:00 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 04:43 PM   #667
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,945
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I finally got my blood test results (drawn 10 days ago). Surprise! I didn't have Covid-19. I had (have) Lyme disease instead.
That's just about the ultimate good news/bad news story.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Wouldn't China have a number of factors going for it in producing and testing a vaccine?

Mainly I'm thinking about how the CCP would probably have no compunction at all about testing using human subjects believed to have a low social worth, such as Ugyhurs, many of whom are confined to concentration camps.
They're no good - the subjects wouldn't necessarily co-operate in giving accurate feedback.

Plus, there's no need when you've 3 million military personnel to test it on:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/scie...avirus-vaccine

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
China might have an ability to get things done because it doesn't have an embedded culture of respect for individual rights. So, no problem vaccinating someone, then exposing them deliberately to high levels of virus. No review or consent needed. It could also harvest plasma at will and see how that works as treatment or prophylaxis. If the disease starts to again run amok in a given region China can contain it by decrees that could go further than US or EU standards.
All of the above.

It's an advantage of being an authoritarian regime that you can get things done without worrying about pesky things like ethics & human rights. Their record in beating the virus is an excellent example. Western countries are plagued by people refusing to be tested, or breaking rules by leaving hime when you're not supposed to. These things are not an issue in China.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do they have standards that restrict the way human trials are run? I kind of doubt it.
I'm sure they have some on paper, but paper rules come a distant second to direct orders.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:01 PM   #668
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 39,399
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Thanks. A lot of that is above my comprehension level but it does look promising. A concern of mine has been long term effectiveness. If it has to be given on an annual basis that would be fine. If effectiveness fades after a few months the practicality may be questionable. We will see.
They're testing longterm and outbreak areas etc in Brazil, South Africa, and the USA.

(The Global News Podcast from the BBC on 21 July in an interview with the researchers.)
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:04 PM   #669
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 39,399
More on the Oxford Vaccine (ChAdOx1 nCoV-19).

AstraZeneca to supply Europe with up to 400 million doses of Oxford University’s vaccine at no profit

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-06-14...cine-no-profit

Oh, noes, conspiracy theorists won't know what to make up about Big Pharma for that one... except the usual depopulation antivax stuff...

[BTW, The link is from the Oxford vaccine site, so check it out.)
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:08 PM   #670
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 39,399
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It may or may not be a good fit but Blockchain isnít *essential* for anything. More often than not it just gets thrown in because it is (or until recently was) one of the cool new buzzwords.
I'm surprised you don't think every man and his dog aren't going to want to know how many doses are available to whom and where and what happens all along the supply chain, let alone all governments, healthcare organisations and corporations.

Tracking this sort of supply and delivery requires blockchain.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:11 PM   #671
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
That's not how you use a vaccine in this situation. You use it as another tool for eradication. You can have a time-limited vaccination operation to get 70% to 80% of the population vaccinated within a fairly tight time window and that has a high chance of achieving herd immunity and eliminating the virus from the population even if vaccine immunity is quite short-lived.

You can ring-vaccinate around outbreaks as an adjunct to contact-tracing to stamp out the flare-ups. This will be much more successful than contact-tracing and isolation along. If a developed country can't eradicate this within its borders within a year of a vaccine becoming available, it isn't trying. And that's a generous time allowance. When you realise that eradication is actually possible (although difficult) even without a vaccine, you should then realise how practical a vaccine makes it.

How can these idiots with one breath say, oh just let most people get it and herd immunity will solve everything (not true), and then in the next breath when considering the game-changer that will actually allow herd immunity to be achieved, start telling us that it can't be eradicated and we have to live with it forever?

The other use for a vaccine is for international travel. No more quarantine, maybe no more testing even. Mandatory travel vaccination and you won't even have to pause to have your temperature taken.

Once the developed countries have sorted themselves out, they can assist the WHO to help the developing countries follow suit until global eradication has been achieved. That will take longer obviously, but within a year of a vaccine being available it should be no more than a memory in developed countries and you won't even need a booster vaccination unless you're travelling to a country that requires it of you.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 23rd July 2020 at 05:13 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:27 PM   #672
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,945
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Tracking this sort of supply and delivery requires blockchain.
lomiller is right about Blockchain - it's an over-hyped, trendy new thing that is a lot more expensive to run than the old thing, with few actual benefits.

One very senior IT manager described it to me as "Excel for idiots" and I have to take his word for it - the bloke is a genuine genius of software and systems. I've yet to see any evidence he's wrong.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:36 PM   #673
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,945
A note on potential vaccine and side effects - the Oxford team is reporting that all participants experience some kind of side effect: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/new...e-side-effects

As long as it's like the 'flu vaccine - bit of a sore arm or a few 'flu-like feelings - no problem.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 05:42 PM   #674
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,688
Preliminary results from a small (150 person) phase 3 trial of favipiravir in India showed a modest improvement in patients with mild to moderate symptoms. 69.8% of treated vs. 44.9% of placebo patients became symptomless within 4 days.

https://www.expresspharma.in/covid19...-19-treatment/
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 23rd July 2020 at 05:44 PM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:29 PM   #675
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,517
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It may or may not be a good fit but Blockchain isnít *essential* for anything. More often than not it just gets thrown in because it is (or until recently was) one of the cool new buzzwords.
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Tracking this sort of supply and delivery requires blockchain.
Blockchain would definitely work for this purpose. But it is not the only system that would. Other more "traditional" methods could certainly be used.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:57 PM   #676
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,688
The Hindustan Times has an article about the various treatments currently being tried in India. One hospital director claims that his hospital has a 90% survival rate among critically ill patients who are given remdesivir and tocilizumab (an immunosuppressant) "within 24 hours" (it wasn't clear what the 24 hours referred to).

https://www.hindustantimes.com/healt...3rvEfN0pJ.html
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:17 PM   #677
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,261
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you get diagnosed and treated early there's a good chance of not suffering longterm after-effects from Lyme. It's undiagnosed Lyme that gets to the tertiary stage that's the nasty, especially if the patient has been treated with steroids in the belief they have something auto-immune. Doxycycline is pretty good stuff.

The bulls-eye rash only appears in 50% of patients they say, but I don't know how they can tell because it doesn't last long, it can be difficult to see (immediately after a bath or shower is a good time) and if it's on your back you may not see it even if it's prominent. (That's primary Lyme, secondary is feeling like you have flu, and tertiary is the arthritis-like symptoms and so on.)

And immunity isn't that bad. It's been said that if you want to get immune to Lyme, go for a walk in the New Forest, don't take the doxycycline when you see the bulls-eye rash, wait till you feel like you have flu, then take the doxycycline, because you have to leave it that long to get the immune response. The doxycycline will clear the Borrelia and you'll be immune.

This only works (if it does, it's scuttlebutt from immunologists at Southampton General Hospital and GPs in the New Forest) because the ticks in England have only about a tenth of the number of Borrelia organisms as are seen in New England, and the strain of Borrelia is much less virulent. Do not try this in America.

I live about a hundred miles (that's 88,000 fathoms for you Europeans), as the tick flies, from Lyme, CT. You don't need one guess how Lyme disease got its name. So, yeah, I think I got the virulent kind.

I had no noticeable primary symptoms, and got the secondary symptoms (aka the "covid" symptoms I thought I had) in the latter half of June. Even some normally tertiary symptoms (stiff hands and knees) seemed mixed in at the same time. At this point I've recovered from all that as of weeks ago, so it's probably kind of late. But it might still be close enough to the get-immune strategy you describe, and might stave off tertiary problems, if my own immune system hasn't already hammered those.

Obviously the doxycycline could have helped more against the secondary symptoms if taken sooner, but due to understandable Covid tunnel vision (on my own part and the medical system's), it took quite a while to get to today and actually taking the antibiotic. I'm pretty sure the only reason my Physicians Assistant even called me back two weeks ago, after I'd complained about all the previous symptoms I'd had to her assistant, was that at some point I'd mentioned my blood pressure had spiked during the illness. The call-back was, "I understand you had some blood pressure problems." I picture the assistant-assistant sitting there thinking "yadda, yadda, who cares" as I described two weeks of no appetite, muscle aches, and extreme fatigue, and finally writing down "blood pressure" (maybe along with a little doodle of a blood pressure cuff, or perhaps a pony) when I mentioned those magic attention-getting words along the way.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:21 PM   #678
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,688
India is reportedly going to begin mass producing an Israeli breathalyzer test for SARS-Cov-2 that return results in about half a minute.

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...pdate-6518884/

An article in an Australian newspaper from a couple of months ago stated that the test had "a greater than 90 percent" success rate. Presumably, this means that the there are close to 10 percent false negatives. Which leads to the question of whether the errors are random, so that a second test would detect 90 percent of the false negatives from a first test or due to the person not emitting enough virus particles to trigger detection in which case they would be likely to repeatedly falsely test negative.

https://ajn.timesofisrael.com/israel...s-breath-test/
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 23rd July 2020 at 07:25 PM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:25 PM   #679
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 25,652
At first glance this poster seems to get the entire mask thing wrong. I think they should have gone with an inverse image.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg faceeyemask.jpg (27.8 KB, 6 views)
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 08:33 PM   #680
GraculusTheGreenBird
Critical Thinker
 
GraculusTheGreenBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
At first glance this poster seems to get the entire mask thing wrong. I think they should have gone with an inverse image.
Batman: "Robin? Is that you?"
GraculusTheGreenBird is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:05 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.