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Tags recovered memories , Satanism conspiracies , The Satanic Temple

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Old 14th January 2021, 10:22 PM   #1
Collin237
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Recovered Memories

It started when I saw an article about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. It claimed they were founded by probable child-molesters, had hoodwinked the scientific community into believing that SRA doesn't happen, and had gone underground as the "Gray Faction" of the "Satanic Temple". I did some googling, and I found that:

1. Organizations for child abuse victims all seem to sponsor paranoid ravings about Satanists.
2. Everyone criticizing them for their bull seems to be connected to the same source.
3. This source apparently does call itself the "Gray Faction", and does seem to actually be an operation of the "Satanic Temple", the same troupe that's notorious for the Baphomet statue pranks.

So on one side there's a group promoting conspiracy theories as well as apparently doing brainwashing of their own. And on the other side there's a self-contradictory troll farm with a big whiff of cryptofascism.

Am I really the only one to admit that both sides are up to no good?
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:24 PM   #2
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The what's this now?
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Old 15th January 2021, 01:12 AM   #3
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Recovered memories = woowoo & psychobabble

/thread
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Old 15th January 2021, 01:41 AM   #4
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GREY FACTION

Quote:
Grey Faction is an educational and advocacy organization whose mission is to protect mental health patients and their families from dangerous pseudoscience and discredited therapies, particularly in the area of so-called “repressed memories.”
From what little I've found so far, apparently this Satanic Temple group was formed in 2012 to troll the religious right, and since then has developed into an organization to resist their religious based agenda. They have seven fundamental tenets.
Quote:
I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.

V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.

VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
They don't actually believe Satan exists.
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Old 15th January 2021, 02:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
2. Everyone criticizing them for their bull seems to be connected to the same source.
That would be science.

Satanic abuse/recovered memory is more busted than dowsing. If only a small number of people bother trolling the True Believers, it's no surprise. I thought it had all died out, so I'm pleased someone is keeping an eye on the nutters.

As an aside, we have a dead bloke in NZ who died while still convicted under recovered/false memory. Thanks to our peculiar laws, the case for his exoneration is still ongoing.

Those filth destroyed many lives, and put an indelible blight on male teachers of young kids for at least an entire generation. ******* them with Baphomet's horns would be too good for them.
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:33 AM   #6
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No evidence that SRA ever existed: go read some of Jean La Fontaine's excellent work on the subject.

Recovered Memories isn't A Thing either: it's been debunked so many times.

Never come across anyone who works with abuse victims or advocates for them (including myself) who could remotely be consideed an apologist for Satanists of whatever and I'd smack anyone who did so upside the head.

Nor did I ever meet anyone who believed in SRA or recovered memories in decades in the relevant field: yes, some over here did, but most of us laughed at them.

Why are we still talking about this manure of the bovine? I do wonder sometimes if it isn't put about by the RCC and the CoE to distract from their inactions in dealing with the well-documented abuse by their priests.
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:34 AM   #7
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Since when is it acceptable to respond to a concern about poor sourcing by just throwing the word "science"? There are plenty of science organizations that should have the power to condemn recovered memory therapy. These organizations have real, respectable names. They do not troll. They do not proclaim things they don't believe. And they certainly do not set up temples!

The leader of the Gray Faction, Doug Mesner, wrote an article claiming that dissociative identity disorder is a myth, and then staged a debate about it, which looked suspiciously like a sockpuppet show. On another blog, he takes the opposite position, affirming that DID exists, and accusing his so-called opponents of being the ones doubting it. Obviously, he doesn't believe his own Tenet #5 either.
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:08 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post

The leader of the Gray Faction, Doug Mesner, wrote an article claiming that dissociative identity disorder is a myth, and then staged a debate about it, which looked suspiciously like a sockpuppet show. On another blog, he takes the opposite position, affirming that DID exists, and accusing his so-called opponents of being the ones doubting it. Obviously, he doesn't believe his own Tenet #5 either.
Douglas Mesner is, or at least used to be, a member here.

Perhaps you could provide links to back up your post?
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:12 AM   #9
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CFK, I'm with you on that 100%. Which is exactly what I'm complaining about; sites that deserve to be "smacked upside the head" seem to be all there are.

The article that got me started was written by Katie Heaney just this January 6. (I wasn't searching for anything like it. It just appeared on a side column while I was looking for news about the coup in Washington DC.) She seems to be implying that recovered memory must be real, because the false memory defense is fake. Yes, I know how heaps-of-illogical that is.
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:17 AM   #10
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There's a message saying I can't post URLs because I don't have 15 posts yet. How do I get around that?
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Old 15th January 2021, 05:27 AM   #11
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Post the URL with spaces, or make 15 posts.
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Old 15th January 2021, 12:07 PM   #12
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h t t p s : / / w w w . d a i l y k o s . c o m /stories/2013/6/6/1214283/-The-Censored-Name-is-Neil-Brick-how-Examiner-com-fails-its-writers-and-readers

compare with

h t t p s : / / w w w . p a t h e o s . c o m /blogs/infernal/2020/02/the-false-survivor-advocates-whose-incompetence-helped-weinsteins-defense/
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:02 PM   #13
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Rebecca, late of this parish, blogged about a recent article on the subject today, and there was a reply from the director of the Grey Faction campaign (see the comments at the bottom).
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:07 PM   #14
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What's SRA?
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
... believing that SRA doesn't happen ...
SRA does happen! Gee, whiz, The Sacramento Running Association (SRA) is happening - https://runsra.org/california-international-marathon
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What's SRA?
Satanic Ritual Abuse
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Old 15th January 2021, 08:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Satanic Ritual Abuse
No thanks. I gave at the office.
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Old 16th January 2021, 03:57 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
h t t p s : / / w w w . d a i l y k o s . c o m /stories/2013/6/6/1214283/-The-Censored-Name-is-Neil-Brick-how-Examiner-com-fails-its-writers-and-readers

compare with

h t t p s : / / w w w . p a t h e o s . c o m /blogs/infernal/2020/02/the-false-survivor-advocates-whose-incompetence-helped-weinsteins-defense/
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...rs-and-readers

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/infern...teins-defense/

Both interesting articles. I'm not sure I am following what your problem is with them. Perhaps you can elaborate.
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Old 16th January 2021, 10:49 AM   #19
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The second article, by itself, does seem like a rational argument. I presented it as contrast to the first one, apparently written by the same Doug Mesner aka Lucien Greaves. In the first article he comes across as incoherent and vindictive, in the manner of people like William Barr, Lindsey Graham, or Mitch McConnell.

Incidentally, his "process" logo does indeed look eerily like a swastika. And he's also on record saying something very ugly about Jews.
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Old 16th January 2021, 11:18 AM   #20
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I'm not sure I get what the contrast is supposed to be.

You said he "wrote an article claiming that dissociative identity disorder is a myth, and then staged a debate about it, which looked suspiciously like a sockpuppet show. On another blog, he takes the opposite position, affirming that DID exists." How about you link to those articles, and the debate, because I thought that was what I was going to find when you produced those links. But there was nothing like that.

Quote:
And he's also on record saying something very ugly about Jews.
Here you are doing it again. What exactly did he say? And please link to it. I'm happy to convert the links for you if you post them with spaces.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:44 PM   #21
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h t t p s : / / w w w . r e d d i t . c o m /r/atheism/comments/3xw1gn/satanic_temple_leader_doug_mesner_lucien_greaves/
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:46 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
I do wonder sometimes if it isn't put about by the RCC and the CoE to distract from their inactions in dealing with the well-documented abuse by their priests.
Funny you should mention that. I just discovered that bishop-accountability.org is promoting recovered memory woo.
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Satanic Ritual Abuse
Is this a common enough discussion topic that a normie would recognize that acronym sans explanation?
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Old 16th January 2021, 01:12 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is this a common enough discussion topic that a normie would recognize that acronym sans explanation?
What's a normie?
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Old 16th January 2021, 01:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
The second article, by itself, does seem like a rational argument. I presented it as contrast to the first one, apparently written by the same Doug Mesner aka Lucien Greaves. In the first article he comes across as incoherent and vindictive, in the manner of people like William Barr, Lindsey Graham, or Mitch McConnell.

Incidentally, his "process" logo does indeed look eerily like a swastika. And he's also on record saying something very ugly about Jews.
http://zeroequalstwo.net/satanic-tem...being-trolled/
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Old 16th January 2021, 09:15 PM   #26
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Verified statements of such extreme bigotry have been enough to ruin many people's careers, and nobody except wingnuts is complaining. Why is Mesner getting a free pass?

It doesn't take a genius to see that this is a double-bind operation. The "satanists" and the quack therapists are joined at the hip. The original allegation about the FMSF may even be fabricated. Why else would it be coming out now, during the coup?

If they make up an abduction story about Joe Biden, and Mesner's troupe rallies to his defense in the name of "satan", what does the country do then?
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Old 16th January 2021, 11:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Verified statements of such extreme bigotry have been enough to ruin many people's careers, and nobody except wingnuts is complaining. Why is Mesner getting a free pass?
Are people not allowed to learn? To grow? To change their minds? The guy who wrote Amazing Grace was in his earlier life one of the scummiest persons imaginably.

Quote:
It doesn't take a genius to see that this is a double-bind operation. The "satanists" and the quack therapists are joined at the hip. The original allegation about the FMSF may even be fabricated. Why else would it be coming out now, during the coup?
All those are very interesting questions. Ones that have real world answers that do not depend on convoluted conspiracies.

Quote:
If they make up an abduction story about Joe Biden, and Mesner's troupe rallies to his defense in the name of "satan", what does the country do then?
And who are they? I would suppose that, if the "troupe" (whoever that might be) calls upon Satan (or satan) or "satan" for help, people who have a good sense of humour will have a good laugh.

Could you please explain what point you are trying to make?
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Old 17th January 2021, 12:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You said he "wrote an article claiming that dissociative identity disorder is a myth, and then staged a debate about it, which looked suspiciously like a sockpuppet show. On another blog, he takes the opposite position, affirming that DID exists." How about you link to those articles, and the debate, because I thought that was what I was going to find when you produced those links. But there was nothing like that.
Still waiting - this is turning into quite the Gish Gallop, isn't it?
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Old 17th January 2021, 12:41 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
What's a normie?
Normal person. Provisionally defined as one who is not conversant with the acronyms for satanic abusive rituals, but that starting assumption may currently be under scrutiny.
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Old 17th January 2021, 02:04 AM   #30
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Matthew, I can see a big problem with Doug in those two links. If you don't see it, I can't make you.
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Old 17th January 2021, 02:24 AM   #31
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The lovely thing is that the truth doesn't care who recognizes it or denies it. We can follow the information available.

If there is some unsavory truth or ridiculous conspiracy theory about one or both sides of any public debate, it has nothing to do with what is actually true.
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Old 17th January 2021, 02:36 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Matthew, I can see a big problem with Doug in those two links. If you don't see it, I can't make you.
What you could do is explain exactly what the problem is.
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Old 17th January 2021, 04:11 AM   #33
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Cavemonster: If the statement is about the physical world, then obviously there's nothing that cares. But if the statement is about people, people certainly do care about not being lied about!

And in a debate between unsavory and ridiculous allegations, not counting those that are manifestly absurd, finding out the truth is the only way to find who, in reality, is most probably guilty or innocent. I'm shocked that someone on a Skeptic forum would suggest otherwise.

Matthew: When a symbol that's archetypally good is borne by people doing evil, it's justified -- offensive to common sensibilities, perhaps, but justified -- to put an evil spin on it. But the reason it's justified is that people matter and symbols don't.

But when a symbol that's archetypally evil is branded in denouncement against people doing evil, it's horribly f_ed-up to put a good spin on it.

h t t p s : / / w w w . w a s h i n g t o n p o s t . c o m /news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/23/im-a-founder-of-the-satanic-temple-dont-blame-satan-for-white-supremacy/

As if this is a contest between Nazis and Christians??? What about us? The actual targets of the hate, liberal Jews like me, who don't believe that Satan exists, but who are just as terrified by Satan-like imagery for the very real reason that it's used by those who killed millions of us and are waiting for a chance to kill more.

In the Trump era, when far-left and far-right are becoming almost indistinguishable, I won't turn a blind eye to someone who thinks he can play around with right-wing tropes

h t t p s : / / a n n o u n c e m e n t . t h e s a t a n i c t e m p l e . c o m /rrr-campaign41280784

and turns around and acts like he's rational and on the good side of things.

Last edited by Collin237; 17th January 2021 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 17th January 2021, 04:27 AM   #34
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ite-supremacy/

https://announcement.thesatanictempl...mpaign41280784
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Old 17th January 2021, 04:34 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
In the Trump era, when far-left and far-right are becoming almost indistinguishable, I won't turn a blind eye to someone who thinks he can play around with right-wing tropes and turn around and act like he's rational and on the good side of things.
OK. Let me know how you get on with that.
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Old 17th January 2021, 04:53 AM   #36
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Sorry, I left out two S's.

Last edited by Collin237; 17th January 2021 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 17th January 2021, 05:42 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Cavemonster: If the statement is about the physical world, then obviously there's nothing that cares. But if the statement is about people, people certainly do care about not being lied about!
Psychology is a science. The truth does not depend on the character of popular proponents of a particular viewpoint. There are standards of research.


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And in a debate between unsavory and ridiculous allegations, not counting those that are manifestly absurd, finding out the truth is the only way to find who, in reality, is most probably guilty or innocent. I'm shocked that someone on a Skeptic forum would suggest otherwise.
I have no idea what you're saying here. I'm 100% in favor of finding out the truth. Looking at conspiracy theories about popular proponents of a particular viewpoint is not a way to learn about the truth of the claims involved.
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Old 17th January 2021, 06:36 AM   #38
Collin237
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Psychology is a science. The truth does not depend on the character of popular proponents of a particular viewpoint. There are standards of research.
The success of a psychological intervention very much depends on the character of the practitioner. If he's inclined toward scientific evidence, he'll probably end up helping the patient. If he's inclined toward woo, he'll probably end up doing the patient enormous harm. And the fact that woo is still accepted in the field of psychology shows that it does not have standards.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Looking at conspiracy theories about popular proponents of a particular viewpoint is not a way to learn about the truth of the claims involved.
Yes it is, in the hands of responsible investigators. That's how we know about Trump's shenanigans in the first place.
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Old 17th January 2021, 07:27 AM   #39
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post


Yes it is, in the hands of responsible investigators. That's how we know about Trump's shenanigans in the first place.
You have conflated "proponent" with "claimant". Among other things.
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
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Old 17th January 2021, 07:31 AM   #40
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But I am a claimant. I'm expressing a concern about Doug Mesner. I haven't even gotten a perfunctory "we'll look into it".
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