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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 4th January 2021, 11:17 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why do you do that?

Now I have mental images of naked fat Trump wrapped in Saran wrap in my head.
As long as it covers his face...

Dave
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:17 AM   #82
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
From: Rolling Stone
Raffensperger and Germany’s refusal to cooperate led the president to issue a vague legal threat against the secretary and his counsel, saying they were at “risk” if they did not investigate his conspiracy theories. “That’s a criminal offense,” Trump said. “And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”

Although Trump's threats were vague, he did use the phrase "risk to you" and brought up "criminal offence".

Given the fact that Trump is president, and has managed in the past to find Attorney Generals who have been willing to engage in shady practices on his behalf, such a statement cannot be completely ignored. (Even if such accusations are unlikely to lead to a conviction, they would still be detrimental to people's political careers.)
The DoJ can normally leverage their broad discretionary power to compel suspects.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:20 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Why do you do that?

Now I have mental images of naked fat Trump wrapped in Saran wrap in my head.
Its apparently been a National problem for four years.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:22 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As long as it covers his face...

Dave
I've conjured that image on occasion when holding a shovel to fill a ditch.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:27 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Yes, of course, if we can say that everything good that comes out of the UN is because of its member states, then of course we can conclude that the UN is useless.
If what they accomplish could have been done without 90% of it's overhead and membership, I would conclude it's a poor business model..

IMO, useless.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:34 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
As an aside, Raffensperger very publicly supported Trump before the elections, and told everyone that he and his family had all voted for Trump. I'm wondering if he regrets that support and those votes yet?
Didn't realize when he boarded the Trump bus, he'd be riding down by the axels.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:35 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Above that he said they will find hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes.

He isn't required to ask for them to do more work uncovering truth than is necessary to change the result. We are back to if he believes it is hundreds of thousands.
You're just being obtuse.

Trump isn't asking a Secretary of State to do his job and ensure a fair election. No, he's asking specifically for enough votes to overturn the election in Georgia. That demonstrates intent and state of mind.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 4th January 2021 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:43 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're just being obtuse.

Trump isn't asking a Secretary of State to do his job and ensure a fair election. No, he's asking specifically for enough votes to overturn the election in Georgia. That demonstrates intent and state of mind.
He isn't required to ask for throwing out more illegal votes than he needs.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:43 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're just being obtuse.

Trump isn't asking a Secretary of State to do his job and ensure a fair election. No, he's asking specifically for enough votes to overturn the election in Georgia. That demonstrates intent and state of mind.
I like how Trump asking for an investigation just big enough in scope enough to serve his interests is held out to prove that Trump isn't asking for an investigation to serve his interests.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:46 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I like how Trump asking for an investigation just big enough in scope enough to serve his interests is held out to prove that Trump isn't asking for an investigation to serve his interests.
I don't see who is claiming that. Opportunism in asking for something legal is not necessarily illegal.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:47 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He isn't required to ask for throwing out more illegal votes than he needs.
He is "required" to not ask to have any thrown out at all. The whole conversation is so far out of bounds as to boggle the mind.

Now, had he not brought up the exact number he needed, there at least would be a credible argument that this was about something larger than his own gratification, but here we are.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:50 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
He is "required" to not ask to have any thrown out at all. The whole conversation is so far out of bounds as to boggle the mind.

Now, had he not brought up the exact number he needed, there at least would be a credible argument that this was about something larger than his own gratification, but here we are.
If the request is legal, and he believes the votes are illegal, it doesn't have to be more than his own gratification.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:51 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He isn't required to ask for throwing out more illegal votes than he needs.
Again, this is obtuse. "Hey, find me enough illegal votes for the other guy to overturn the election". This isn't a search for the truth, this is a search for a specific outcome.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:52 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's extremely difficult to sue a politician/pubic figure in the US for defamation...more difficult than a private citizen...because actual malice has to be proved. In this case that would be almost impossible because one would have to prove that Trump didn't believe Freeman was committing fraud in the video. At this point, I don't think Trump believes she isn't. He's that far gone into denial.
I don't think she's a public figure, though he is trying his best to make her one. Maybe she is. But there are different bars for different allegations. A poll worker getting her name plastered all over social media and traditional media is perhaps an invasion of privacy. I'm sure someone would be willing to take the case on contingency ... they'd never collect a judgment, of course, because Trump, but it would be worth something for bragging rights.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:54 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't see who is claiming that. Opportunism in asking for something legal is not necessarily illegal.
"necessarily" is what makes this a meaningless point.

It is perfectly legal for me to ask you for your wallet.

Therefore, if I do so when we are alone in a dark alley and I'm holding a crowbar then I have not committed a crime. Since it is not "necessarily" illegal to make such a request. I just happened to have a blunt instrument and you just happen to feel like you will be harmed if you don't do as I say. So all above board.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:55 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, this is obtuse. "Hey, find me enough illegal votes for the other guy to overturn the election". This isn't a search for the truth, this is a search for a specific outcome.
He isn't required to be a good person in pursuing this.

Bad people can also be the victims of fraud. Good people can falsely think themselves victims of fraud.

Bad person that truly believes he is a victim pursues legal remedy selfishly may not be a crime.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
"necessarily" is what makes this a meaningless point.

It is perfectly legal for me to ask you for your wallet.

Therefore, if I do so when we are alone in a dark alley and I'm holding a crowbar then I have not committed a crime. Since it is not "necessarily" illegal to make such a request. I just happened to have a blunt instrument and you just happen to feel like you will be harmed if you don't do as I say. So all above board.
What makes this scenario different is we have a system where hitting someone with a crowbar is legal. It may be terrible where crowbar hitting (discretionary authority to prosecute things you think are crimes) is legal, but those are the rules. I hate the offsides rule in soccer, too.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In context, he said to find 11,780 more votes, which was one more than they needed to win and turn the election. You cannot be instructed to find a specific number of votes to produce a desired result. It is clear instruction to fabricate evidence, albeit thinly veiled.
Now I am sure bob is concerned over how bad a rap the mafia gets when all they are is really concerned over something bad happening to small businesses.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:03 PM   #99
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In saner times, a President who looks to have lost an election just calling the Secretary of State of a state crucial to his election chances would alone be grounds to run that President out of office and public life.

Never mind the content of this call. If he were calling to ask for advice as to the nimzo-larsen attack it would still be a massive scandal. Placing the call is so out of bounds that if the call were him just begging the SOS to be absolutely neutral and fair no matter the result it would rightly be seen as coercion.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:05 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now I am sure bob is concerned over how bad a rap the mafia gets when all they are is really concerned over something bad happening to small businesses.
Let's be clear.

That is exactly what Trump did. What I'm saying is it is occurring where protection money and burning down property is legal.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He isn't required to ask for throwing out more illegal votes than he needs.
Don't be ridiculous. The only thing he's allowed to demand is that the law be observed. As soon as he asks for a specific number of votes to be flipped, he's stepping outside the law.

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Old 4th January 2021, 12:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What makes this scenario different is we have a system where hitting someone with a crowbar is legal. It may be terrible where crowbar hitting (discretionary authority to prosecute things you think are crimes) is legal, but those are the rules. I hate the offsides rule in soccer, too.
No, no hitting. I'm just holding it in my hand when I ask you for your wallet.

Also, it is perfectly legal to hit you with the crowbar if it is in self defense. So it is no more "necessarily" illegal than anything else here. I'm just in this alley asking for your wallet and that crowbar is strictly only for use to protect myself.

So totally above board.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:07 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Don't be ridiculous. The only thing he's allowed to demand is that the law be observed. As soon as he asks for a specific number of votes to be flipped, he's stepping outside the law.

Dave
Government officials have broad discretion and limited resources. He can ask those resources be limited in a manner that maximizes his benefit.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:09 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
No, no hitting. I'm just holding it in my hand when I ask you for your wallet.

Also, it is perfectly legal to hit you with the crowbar if it is in self defense. So it is no more "necessarily" illegal than anything else here. I'm just in this alley asking for your wallet and that crowbar is strictly only for use to protect myself.

So totally above board.
I'm not hiding qualifiers. I literally mean that the situation for trump is effectively legal unprovoked crowbar hitting.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:10 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
In saner times, a President who looks to have lost an election just calling the Secretary of State of a state crucial to his election chances would alone be grounds to run that President out of office and public life.

Never mind the content of this call. If he were calling to ask for advice as to the nimzo-larsen attack it would still be a massive scandal. Placing the call is so out of bounds that if the call were him just begging the SOS to be absolutely neutral and fair no matter the result it would rightly be seen as coercion.


Well, looking at his family, he clearly never heard the aphorism, "Caesar's wife must be above reproach".
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:11 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Government officials have broad discretion and limited resources. He can ask those resources be limited in a manner that maximizes his benefit.
He's not asking for a limited investigation, he's demanding with threats a specific remedy that he knows has already been denied by the courts. A reasonable person would know he was acting illegally.

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Old 4th January 2021, 12:14 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He isn't required to be a good person in pursuing this.

Bad people can also be the victims of fraud. Good people can falsely think themselves victims of fraud.

Bad person that truly believes he is a victim pursues legal remedy selfishly may not be a crime.
You just proved the point. It's about intention. That the intent is as you admit is selfish demonstrates that Trump isn't seeking a correct outcome, but a selfish one.
That is putting himself before the laws of Georgia and the United States.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:16 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
He's not asking for a limited investigation, he's demanding with threats a specific remedy that he knows has already been denied by the courts. A reasonable person would know he was acting illegally.

Dave
He is asking for a limited investigation

Quote:
And you'll find that you have many different signatures. But in Fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren't even signed and you have many that are forgeries.
OK, you know that. You know that. You have no doubt about that. And you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes, because Fulton County is totally corrupt and so is she, totally corrupt.
That is what they will find if they look at it.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:17 PM   #109
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Maybe Trump released the tape; he probably thinks it makes him look strong. Objecting strongly. Or maybe it was Cleta ... she got browbeat almost as much as Raffensperger did.

ETA: I've never been too worried about Trump appointing people whom he considers loyalists. I don't think very many people in his orbit stay loyal for long. His kids, maybe, for the money.

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Old 4th January 2021, 12:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You just proved the point. It's about intention. That the intent is as you admit is selfish demonstrates that Trump isn't seeking a correct outcome, but a selfish one.
That is putting himself before the laws of Georgia and the United States.
Why would he be legally required to seek a correct outcome? If, as he says, they take the few minutes, find the 12k illegal votes, and stop, what along that way violates the law?
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:31 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Government officials have broad discretion and limited resources. He can ask those resources be limited in a manner that maximizes his benefit.
This isn't his government. He has no legal authority whatsoever over Georgia's elections much less any say in their discretion as to how they go about things. Federalism and all that.

He is implying that he will use federal resources to punish a state official doing state business in a way that displeases him. Simple as that.

There isn't all that much difference between him calling the Georgia SOS and suggesting this as if he called the CEO of HBO and suggested that charging him for cable is illegal.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:34 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
This isn't his government. He has no legal authority whatsoever over Georgia's elections much less any say in their discretion as to how they go about things. Federalism and all that.

He is implying that he will use federal resources to punish a state official doing state business in a way that displeases him. Simple as that.

There isn't all that much difference between him calling the Georgia SOS and suggesting this as if he called the CEO of HBO and suggested that charging him for cable is illegal.
I would hope every prosecution by the DoJ had the prosecutor displeased with the way the accused does business.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:35 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would he be legally required to seek a correct outcome?
Why is he legally permitted to seek a correct outcome in this way?

That is the issue. The answer is that he isn't. Had he not been so obvious about it by giving an exact number then there would be a dubious at best argument that this call was out of concern and not out of self-dealing. Which is a far cry from making it legal.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:36 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would he be legally required to seek a correct outcome?
Do you actually have to ask such an inane question?

If so, then you should be advised that the President is legally and morally required "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution to the best of [his/her] ability".

Since you claim to have read the US Constitution many times, then you should be already be quite aware of this fact.

Quote:
If, as he says, they take the few minutes, find the 12k illegal votes, and stop, what along that way violates the law?
Again, do you actually have to ask such an inane question?

If so, then you should be aware that all of the Georgia votes have already been tallied twice by machine and once by hand.

Therefore, there are not 12,000 illegal votes to be obtained.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:37 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would hope every prosecution by the DoJ had the prosecutor displeased with the way the accused does business.
I'd rather that the DOJ be enforcing the law consistent with the oath of office rather than based on personal interest, but I'm weird about that sort of thing.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:37 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Why is he legally permitted to seek a correct outcome in this way?
Because you can ask almost anybody almost anything.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:39 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Do you actually have to ask such an inane question?

If so, then you should be advised that the President is legally and morally required "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution to the best of [his/her] ability".

Since you claim to have read the US Constitution many times, then you should be already be quite aware of this fact.



Again, do you actually have to ask such an inane question?

If so, then you should be aware that all of the Georgia votes have already been tallied twice by machine and once by hand.

Therefore, there are not 12,000 illegal votes to be obtained.
No one is disputing that the president is incorrect. But if he believes he right, that complicates a few laws.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:40 PM   #118
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Would Ruby Freeman be able to sue Stubby McBonespurs over his spreading of the election fraud conspiracy theory?
Has it actually been established that a person/poll worker/whatever named Ruby Freeman actually exists? ETA: BTW I don't want her personal details repeated here, just want to know how made up this conspiracy theory is.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 4th January 2021 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:41 PM   #119
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
This isn't his government. He has no legal authority whatsoever over Georgia's elections much less any say in their discretion as to how they go about things. Federalism and all that.
I don't think that really helps the point you're trying to make.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
He is implying that he will use federal resources to punish a state official doing state business in a way that displeases him. Simple as that.
And, per your first paragraph, this is a completely empty threat, if it is a threat.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There isn't all that much difference between him calling the Georgia SOS and suggesting this as if he called the CEO of HBO and suggested that charging him for cable is illegal.
Yes, they're both absurd.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:43 PM   #120
Suddenly
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because you can ask almost anybody almost anything.
Again, this is a meaningless general statement.

We are talking about a President threatening to use his powers of office to coerce someone over whom he has no legal authority to take action in a way to bring the President a personal material gain.

Not me asking my neighbor for a cup of sugar.
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