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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 5th January 2021, 05:42 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ronald Reagan spent so much on military spending that a graduating electrical engineer was almost forced to work on military programs in order to find a job. That affected my life personally.

ETA: The above is offered as an illustration of how a president can affect your life, even indirectly.
Just to play Devil's Advocate : things happened during the Reagan Administration which have shaped the world today (with its gross and growing inequality) but they weren't his doing, nor of his instigation. Much the same can be said of Bush Jr. They were just the smiling faces bringing in the votes. Presidents who have an active influence are few and far between. I think Obama qualifies, but it's debatable. Biden won't be. Kamala Harris maybe? I'll try to hang in long enough to find out.
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Old 5th January 2021, 05:48 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
And you suggested I didn't have a sense of humor..
No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny.
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Old 5th January 2021, 05:54 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Lets see. Reagan raised the rate of FICA taxes. He doubled it. This led to a larger percentage of my weekly check taken out. My brother lost his home to his skyrocketing interest rates on his ARM and the mortgage crash.

My eldest brother went to Vietnam because of LBJ.
I haven't needed Medicare but someday I might. That was created by LBJ.
Carter ended the redlining in home mortgages.
Carter deregulated the Airlines which made travel both more inexpensive and less comfortable.

There are foreign policy decisions that affects food and fuel prices.

The cost of automobiles. Jobs in manufacturing being shipped abroad. Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway Act. That created millions of jobs and made travel easy. FDR created Social Security.

Care for me to go on? I can.
As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.

I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably.

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...
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Old 5th January 2021, 05:56 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Good example..
I do not have anything similar to have happened to me.
I wrote an answer related to the Affordable Care Act, but decided it was off topic for the thread.

I do agree with part of your general statements and attitude about the POTUS or other elected officials. People worry too much about them. Yes, they affect our lives, but regardless of who occupies the White House or the Senate, we can still muddle through. I lived through Democrats, Republicans, and whatever the hell Trump is. It isn't the most important thing in the world.

However, on this thread's topic, one thing that I am absolutely certain of is that whoever occupies the White House, it had better be the person chosen in the rules of a fair and free election, and Donald Trump is trying to subvert that by pressuring election officials from Georgia and elsewhere to lie about how many votes were cast for which candidate. Neither he nor anyone who supports that effort ought to be cut any slack. For the rank and file, Joe Average from Sandusky who has been duped by the lies, I'll cut him a little bit of slack because some of those people are just too stupid to understand what's going on. For the elected officials, though, there is no excuse. Every one of them should be removed from office.


ETA: Removed by elections, unless a specific law has been broken.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:01 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny.
Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune..
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:04 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.

I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably.

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...
At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way?

Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did?

Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...
Nobody does anything in a vacuum. That also wasn't part of your question.

And yes the roots of the war in Vietnam preceded LBJ. Still, there is no question that LBJ escalated the war in Vietnam which sent many young men to their deaths.

I'm not sure what your point was. Maybe, I misunderstood it. I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way?

Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did?

Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune..
Royal we?
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:06 PM   #290
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I feel pretty good about the Republicans getting bounced in Georgia.. (So far...)

Do we need a new thread for that?

I'm going to report myself for being off topic...
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:09 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Royal we?
You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics?

Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way..

They exist but are hard to find..
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:33 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That is so weird. I thought Trump was speaking over Mitchell because she was on the Georgia side of the call supporting Raffensperger.

Was she on the Georgia side of the call but she's a Trump advisor?
Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:41 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics?

Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way..

They exist but are hard to find..
You claimed that all the things "we" find funny allude to someone else's stupidity or misfortune. Now your claim has shifted to being subtly demeaning. That's different, but still not by any stretch a universally accurate description.

All I can say is that when a person claims that the only things he finds funny are demeaning or hurtful, I can see why they would find electing Trump humorous.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:33 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.
The ending of mortgage redlining was part of Carter's personal mission, and I do give him credit for it actually happening.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:40 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?
Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.

It pretty much made me a D even though my registration is R.
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Old 5th January 2021, 07:47 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call.
She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of.

She was getting at some interesting stuff, IMO. Having to do with not having access to Georgia's data. Having seen what Team Trump does with data, I certainly don't blame Georgia for not just bundling everything up and sending it straight to the Trump campaign.

In 2016 Trump met with a similar response from (almost?) every state when his commission looked into electoral fraud. They pretty all much told him to take a hike.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:01 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not.
Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.)

Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:08 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of.
Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual??
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:16 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.
This did not occur in a vacuum, given that there were surely many voters just like you, but Obama did make it the defining issue of his Presidency, did believe in it, and did get something done which Republicans argued could never be undone once experienced by millions of their voters. A warning that has been justified by events.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:20 PM   #300
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Obama's mandate to get insurance meant I had coverage six months later when I found out I'd had cancer for a bit.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:09 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The President does not affect those things in a vacuum.

What do you know about Clinton's position on trade and tariffs; particularly when it comes to China?
I thought we were discussing concrete ways the presidentís decisions effects people lives? Pointing out another theoretical president would have also effected your life in the same way seems like it proves the point more.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:16 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.)

Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress.
Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.

The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously.

Here's another example of a President's policy that probably had a huge effect on all of us. Nixon ended the Oak Ridge Laboratory Molten Salt Reactor Experiment in the mid 70s which is a new much safer variety of nuclear reactor.

The best thing we can do to end poverty is to create cheaper cleaner energy. And the MSR has tremendous potential Nixon's decision put that possibility 40 years behind.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:20 PM   #303
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Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:25 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer.
Too EARLY. I think anything supernatural is ridiculous. But I do have my superstitions.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:33 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.
And for the most part they failed.

There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:36 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual??
In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:43 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
And for the most part they failed.

There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter.
I'm not that big of fan of Volcker. He may be the biggest reason Carter lost reelection. The Fed policies included astronomically high interest rates. You couldnt buy a home in 1980 unless it was owner financed.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:44 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.

The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously.
A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide.


Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day.
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Old 5th January 2021, 10:04 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide.

Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day.

I'd love to discuss this further, but we are getting off into the weeds and it is off topic.
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Old 6th January 2021, 01:29 AM   #310
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Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:02 AM   #311
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Deleted. I'm always late to the party, and it was off-topic.
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:09 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...
Trump epitomises the adage about wrestling in the mud with a pig.
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:32 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...
I wonder what the phone calls to Pence will sound like.
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:39 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...
Unless you see Trump as a democrat stooge seeing to destroy the republican party.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:21 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.
Yeah, the 5000 dead people voting thing has been around for a while I think. IIRC, after the election, some people went on to the Georgia voter registration site and entered in the names of dead people and the year of their births (since that's the only information available on the public facing website) and found 5000 "matches". But the SoS had access to full dates of birth and SSNs, and only found two dead people voted (illegal votes cast by a Trumpist).

The Trump campaign has asked for the full data with DoBs and SSNs, for their own super special magic secret squirrel investigation, but the SoS says they can't do that since it would be illegal.

It makes a good talking point to say that the Secretary of State is blocking their investigations by failing to provide data, but there is no real reason to believe the SoS is lying, and the full data set probably would not change things in the slightest.

If you think about it though, the full data is not actually needed by the Trump campaign. There is nothing stopping them from hiring some investigators to go to the homes of the people on the voter lists and finding out if they are, in fact, dead. It would be a lot more work, but it would neatly sidestep the SoS completely. Of course, they would lose their shiny talking point, spend a lot of money, and probably not find anything, but they could do it.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:33 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.

It pretty much made me a D even though my registration is R.
I was voting mostly D anyway, but I'm pretty sure some of my friends are still alive because of the ACA. Or more functional instead of suffering and dependent on others.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:35 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not that big of fan of Volcker. He may be the biggest reason Carter lost reelection. The Fed policies included astronomically high interest rates. You couldnt buy a home in 1980 unless it was owner financed.
I am not sure there was a non-painful way out of "stagflation".
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:21 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Unless you see Trump as a democrat stooge seeing to destroy the republican party.
I'd love that to gain traction - would be the fastest way to turn his support against him...
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:46 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I was voting mostly D anyway, but I'm pretty sure some of my friends are still alive because of the ACA. Or more functional instead of suffering and dependent on others.
(waives hand)

There is about a 50% chance I'm dead without it. Even with the ACA I was about 5% to ever be a fully functional person again, so best case if I spent that crucial two years without insurance I'm permanently disabled.

(I'm enough of a jerk to still be annoyed that with all that congressional control the ACA was the best they could do, but I gotta be me. )
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:29 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I'd love that to gain traction - would be the fastest way to turn his support against him...
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
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