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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 6th January 2021, 07:31 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:34 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences.
I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:38 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?
I don't want to go down this ugly road, but presidents appoint supreme court judges, and if you were a woman, you might be more concerned about the current lineup therein affecting your personal life.


EDIT: Honestly though, that seems like small potatoes now. I am genuinely worried the current President has irrevocably started the collapse of this nation. Which is a problem even for solipsists, because it means we're all going to have to live in scarcity, violence, and chaos. With a pandemic going on.

I REALLY wish I were currently taking something for my anxiety.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:44 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
He is an A-political creature who seeks personal power over all else. He calls himself a Republican now, but many of his "policies" would not be recognized as Republican under any other POTUS. He has destroyed the GOP and I am happy for that.
However, I don't know that it was worth the cost.
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Old 6th January 2021, 07:47 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
Absolutely. As someone else pointed out, he is in everything for himself.

Trump wanted to be president, and he figured out he couldn't scam democrats as easily as he could scam republicans. So, voila, he's a republican.

It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:49 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
He was a NY Dem when it was politically advantageous, being a NY based developer. But I think we have seen that he was always an authoritarian at heart. Well, as long as he is the one wielding the authority.
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:52 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.
That's coherent enough to speak to me.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:57 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.
FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:08 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts.
That's unfair. An awful lot of them are just racists.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:17 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.

OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:30 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??
Depends - is she a 6 or a 9?
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:49 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?
This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:53 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended.
Only if you have empathy. Once you are a properly psychopathic person, the kind the worlds smartest person Ayn Rand viewed as the ideal human being it is easy to just forget all that.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:05 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.
My observation is that he was a Republican up to the end of the 90s, at which point he changed to Libertarian and put his hat in the ring for presidential candidacy.

That didn't pan out, and during the Bush II administration, his views about involvement in foreign wars were no longer aligned to Libertarian or Republican parties, so he switched to Democratic.

This affair with Democratic Party ended when they nominated a negro for president, and he switched back to Republican.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:05 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I am not sure there was a non-painful way out of "stagflation".
I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:07 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!
19 years?
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:08 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
19 years?
FOUR MORE!!!
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:10 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
19 years?
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
FOUR MORE!!!
23?
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:11 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
23?
FOUR MORE YEARS!

(I can keep this up for ages, you know.)
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:25 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
FOUR MORE YEARS!

(I can keep this up for ages, you know.)
LOL. I'm sure you can.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:36 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??
First of all, Trump was never going to let her talk. Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know. But as soon as she proposed something like that, IIRC he began talking over her. He did not want to go down the path of anything that could actually be resolved. I'm not saying she was a good guy here, although I did like her persistence in trying to get a word in edgewise.

Certainly if I were SoS I wouldn't be sharing data with the Trump cabal if I could help it, because we've seen what his supporters do with data. Again, IIRC, this matches the response states gave Trump's special commission when they were supposedly trying to investigate Trump's alleged 3 million illegal votes after the 2016 election. Not just blue states either. That commission came up with nothing.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:42 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian.
By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around?
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:43 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know.
So you suspect Trump is torturing her son to death with force lightning in front of her eyes?
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:18 AM   #344
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And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:29 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout
Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote.

They aren't even being subtle about it.
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Old 8th January 2021, 06:12 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote.

They aren't even being subtle about it.
That is exactly right, the sticking point for the GOP. I'd been wondering (naively, I admit) why they were so opposed to a system that, after all, they had as much access to as anyone. Then I realized that it isn't that they're against a system that entitles them to an equal voice, it's that they're against a system that doesn't deny the other side a full voice.
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:57 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout

Don't they realize that if there is no COVID at the time of the next election, this will most quite possibly hurt them?
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:10 AM   #348
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Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer.
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:12 AM   #349
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Watching Republicans word and reword "If just let all eligible voters vote, we won't stand a chance" would be pathetic if it wasn't actually working with some people.

Have some goddamn dignity and stop shaking in fear at the idea of losing in a fair fight.
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:34 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around?
Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically.

My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone.
People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US

This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices.

OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie.

Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything.
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:49 AM   #351
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The Opening Arguments podcast next Tuesday is going to be talking about the phone call. Host and lawyer Andrew Torrez says that making and winning a criminal case from that phone call would be incredibly easy to do, to the point where he's pushing his co-host to title the episode "Donald Trump is going to prison".
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:35 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer.
No kidding. On Tuesday, I was thinking this was a huge story that couldn't be pushed off the radar so easily. Once again, I underestimated the Trump-era level of corruption and stupidity.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:37 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically.

My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone.
People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US

This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices.

OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie.

Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything.
We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player.

I found this as an overall treatment.

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation

However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm

Originally Posted by Steve Kangas
Growing inflation in the 70s received two huge boosts: the first comprised the late-1973 and 1979 oil shocks from OPEC (the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries). Soaring oil prices compelled most American businesses to raise their prices as well, with inflationary results. The second boost to inflation came in the form of food harvest failures around the world, which created soaring prices on the world food market. Again, U.S. companies that imported food responded with an inflationary rise in their prices.

All this was accompanied by a growing crisis in monetary policy at the Federal Reserve. Traditionally, the Fed has fought inflation by contracting the money supply, and fought unemployment by expanding it. In the 60s, the Fed conducted an expansionary policy, accepting higher inflation in return for lower unemployment. It soon became clear, however, that this strategy was flawed. Expanding the money supply created jobs because it put more money in the hands of employers and consumers, who spent it. But eventually businesses learned to expect these monetary increases, and they simply raised their prices by the anticipated amount (instead of hiring more workers). The result was that the Fed gradually lost its ability to keep down unemployment; the more money it pumped into the economy, the more businesses raised their prices. As a result, both inflation and unemployment started growing together, forming a twin monster that economist Paul Samuelson dubbed "stagflation."

Stagflation happened to reach its peak on Carter's watch, spurred on by the 1979 oil shock. How Carter can be blamed for a trend that began a decade and a half earlier is a mystery -- and a testimony as to how presidential candidates often exploit the public's economic ignorance for their own political gain.

However, Carter did in fact take a tremendously important step in ending stagflation. He nominated Paul Volcker for the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. Volcker was committed to eradicating stagflation by giving the nation some bitter medicine: an intentional recession. In 1980, Volcker tightened the money supply, which stopped job growth in the economy. In response to hard times, businesses began cutting their prices, and workers their wage demands, to stay in business. Volcker argued that eventually this would wring inflationary expectations out of the system.

The recovery of 1981 was unintentional, and with inflation still high, Volcker tightened the money supply even more severely in 1982. This resulted in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Unemployment in the final quarter of 1982 soared to over 10 percent, and Volcker was accused of the "cold-blooded murder of millions of jobs." Even high-ranking members of Reagan's staff were vehemently opposed to his actions. Congress actually considered bringing the independent Fed under the government's direct control, to avoid such economic pain in the future. Today, economists calculate that the cost of Volcker's anti-inflation medicine was $1 trillion -- an astounding sum. But Wall Street demanded that Volcker stay the course, and that may have been the only thing that saved him.

In the late summer of 1982, inflation looked defeated, so Volcker sharply expanded the money supply. Once as high as 14 percent in 1981, the Fed's discount rate fell from 11 to 8.5 percent between August and December 1982. Within months, the economy roared to life, and took off on an expansion that would last seven years. Because the recession had been so deep, and the number of available workers so large (with not only laid-off workers waiting to return to work, but also a record number of women seeking to join the workforce), the recovery was guaranteed to be long and healthy.

Interestingly, Volcker was transformed from villain to hero after the victory over inflation. His reputation and integrity were so unquestioned that when his term as Chairman came up for renewal, Reagan renominated him with overwhelming popular approval. Another interesting tidbit is that although Volcker's intentional recession was a classically Keynesian approach to combating inflation, he did so under the name of "monetarism". (The policies recommended by the two theories converged at this point.) Milton Friedman, the creator of monetarist theory, and other conservatives were pleased that the Fed had finally converted to monetarism. However, they were outraged in late 1982 when Volcker threw off the cloak of monetarism and openly returned to Keynesian policies for expanding the economy. Most economists now accept that the Fed was not monetarist at all during this period, and that the label was merely political cover for drastic but necessary action.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:54 AM   #354
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player.

I found this as an overall treatment.

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation

However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm
I don't agree with that at all. I think it was the result of the oil shocks. You combine the increased base commodity prices with the job losses in manufacturing and home building and it was a perfect storm. And the nation didn't really recover until the Fed lowered interest rates again. I think the tightening of the money supply at that time was a disaster.
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:24 PM   #355
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I'm picturing Trump in a staff meeting:
"The Fake News is making hay with this phone call! We need something to take their minds off it!"
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Old 8th January 2021, 12:32 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm picturing Trump in a staff meeting:
"The Fake News is making hay with this phone call! We need something to take their minds off it!"
Crosby's dead cat strategy.
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:38 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
No kidding. On Tuesday, I was thinking this was a huge story that couldn't be pushed off the radar so easily. Once again, I underestimated the Trump-era level of corruption and stupidity.
One Trump disaster bleeds into the next. There really aren't clear dividing lines.
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Old 9th January 2021, 02:10 PM   #358
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So apparently, Trump had a practice run a week before he called Raffensperger:

‘Find the fraud’: Trump pressured a Georgia elections investigator in a separate call legal experts say could amount to obstruction
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