IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Closed Thread
Old 11th February 2021, 03:06 PM   #1
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

Mod Info Discussion continued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from previous parts of this thread. But please use your best endeavours to stick to your MA when composing and submitting your posts.
Posted By:Agatha



Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
There are no actual concerns here, just "what if" scenarios and slippery slopes.
They are all things that are ALREADY happening.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

Last edited by Agatha; 11th February 2021 at 03:35 PM.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:08 PM   #2
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Suppose these girls want to keep their cisgender male classmates out of the same room, for the same reasons. Should that also be termed prejudicial?
This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:10 PM   #3
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,744
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be.
Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:17 PM   #4
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:19 PM   #5
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
That's a classic begging of the question. These facilities, when set up, were segregated by sex. You have given no explanation at all why you suddenly insist they should be segregated by "gender", other than your own personal feelings.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 11th February 2021 at 03:37 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:20 PM   #6
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Paranoid and delusional fantasies, eh?

females don't have the right to prevent males from looking at them when they're naked
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/SPP_Or...ntoDismiss.pdf
Judge Alonso concludes that young girls have no right to visual privacy - they have no right to prevent males from looking at them naked without their consent. That is pretty much equivalent to legalizing peeing toms and voyeurism.

nor will females have any right to object if a male exposes their penis to a female
The law came down on the side of Colleen Brenna, and sided with that person's right to have her penis viewable by minor females in the changing room, regardless of whether those girls wanted to see it. Pretty much legalizing flashing and exhibitionism.

Females will certainly not have a right to compete in sports fairly.
Well, Biden just took care of that, didn't he?

they won't have the right to fair representation in politics or to fully participate in the economy on equal footing.
NY has a completely untransitioned transwoman as the "female" representative, supposedly to uphold the needs and interests of female constituents. A few female seats in the UK have been taken by transwomen, which reduces the representation of females in politics. A transwoman was named the most successful female CEO. Eddie Izzard was named the funniest female comedian.

They won't even have the right to be reasonably protected from sexual assault in prison, because the won't have the right to expect that penises won't be present.
California has led the way with that one, allowing transwomen to be placed in female prisons on the basis of their self-identification. Canada has done the same, and also the UK. There've already been several cases of female prisoners' being raped by testicle-having prostate bearer's penises as a result.

So... tell me again how my view of things that have already happened and are continuing to happen are "paranoid and delusional"?
These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:20 PM   #7
Louden Wilde
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: NYC
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.
You do not understand what 'female' means....
Louden Wilde is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:21 PM   #8
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,569
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
That's not actually an answer.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:22 PM   #9
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,744
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before.
Stipulated, but why is it okay to discriminate against just one of these unchosen personal characteristics?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:29 PM   #10
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,917
A perfect example of why I genuinely feel this issue will never be fully resolved (either here or in meatspace). When the phrase "a female can have a penis" is uttered unironically then one side is discussing from a PoV so utterly divorced from reality that sane (let alone productive) conversation won't be possible. If someone truly believes that a female can have a penis there is no amount of reason capable of cutting through the brain-fog necessary to hold that belief.

Last edited by Joe Random; 11th February 2021 at 04:13 PM. Reason: grammar fix
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:33 PM   #11
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This kind of argument has been used many times before in this thread and no, it wouldn't be. I have never argued for males (either cisgender or transgender) to be given access to the same facilities as females, only that transgender females aren't excluded by cisgender females.
Again... How are we supposed to distinguish between a transgirl and cisboy?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:33 PM   #12
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
This is false. A female cannot have a penis, a male cannot have a vulva. Not a real one at least.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:35 PM   #13
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.
So we've gone from "paranoid and delusional" to "well, that's just your interpretation".

These are things that are already actually happening. They are neither paranoid nor delusional. They are very real. And they have very real negative consequences for females.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:40 PM   #14
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
A perfect example of why I genuinely feel this issue will never be fully resolved (either here or in meatspace). When the phrase "a female can have a penis" is utter unironically then one side is discussing from a PoV so utterly divorced from reality that sane (let alone productive) conversation won't be possible. If someone truly believes that a female can have a penis there is no amount of reason capable of cutting through the brain-fog necessary to hold that belief.
That link to the article comparing creationism to sex-denialism kinda has a point.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 04:15 PM   #15
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,917
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That link to the article comparing creationism to sex-denialism kinda has a point.

I thought the link was to a video so I skipped it. I see now it's a transcript, so off to read ...
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 04:19 PM   #16
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So we've gone from "paranoid and delusional" to "well, that's just your interpretation".

These are things that are already actually happening. They are neither paranoid nor delusional. They are very real. And they have very real negative consequences for females.
I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 04:49 PM   #17
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 47,483
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
I thought the link was to a video so I skipped it. I see now it's a transcript, so off to read ...

I've just read it. It's very good. I appreciate the last paragraph more than most, in a queasy sort of way.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 04:58 PM   #18
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why not, though? Why is it okay (in your view) for the girls to discriminate based on gender but not genitals?
Because it fits her own needs.

Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.

Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.

Boudicca won't even concede for transgirls to use a separate single space area to alleviate the stress it causes on some of these females- again, because she doesn't know about it or, if she does, does not consider it as important as her own needs. She stated that these cases are female girls being discriminatory to transpersons instead of even considering other options like them coping and avoiding reliving a reminder of their trauma again and again and again.
No wonder many girls might just choose NOT to use those types of co-ed rooms, or may even change schools. I think most parents might do it quietly, or the girl will feign some drastic need to leave. Anything to get out of it with the least confrontation which could be just more triggering. That's why a lot of these cases don't get reported or brought to court. That process is horrible too.
They are statistically certain to exist in most of these spaces. There will be abuse survivors trying to cope while others yell at them for being transphobic. They might not have the courage to even say why they cant cope.

If you think this is anecdote, just look at stats, though not every girl is affected the same. Sometimes stats use rape, attempted rape, or other types of assault. Some abuse is way worse than others and I'm not going into it. She can look for herself to see. There may be 6 in the room, and there may be none and they will have reactions unique to themselves.

These spaces are important to them and some girls are frankly not going to handle a male body in their changing space very well. If it is a family member abusing them, this may be the only safe space they know.
The reaction may depend on the personality of that trans person though, perhaps if they were friends beforehand, and how caring and connected the male-bodied person is or can appreciate the reality of those issues to offer appropriate consideration of the girl's absolute need to feel safe there. Many of the other girls also won't know. At this age it is pretty secret and often shameful so they may say different reasons for their actions to not want to be in that space. Even adult women do this. Shame lasts a long time.

Hopefully it is just simple ignorance on the topic.
Maybe she will read a bit about it and find out more about girl's lives.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 11th February 2021 at 05:35 PM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:00 PM   #19
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.
Good decisions for trans equality, bad decisions for females. I suppose that's a matter of "interpretation"

Still neither paranoid nor delusional though.

Are you walking back your prior claim that this is all in the heads of females? Would you rather clarify your position to be clearer that it's a matter of you not caring that these policies harm females?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:06 PM   #20
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
I do find the goalpost shifting to be... interesting, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90
Once again, these paranoid and delusional fantasies of a dystopian future for cisgender women are completely unfounded.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90
There are no actual concerns here, just "what if" scenarios and slippery slopes.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
These are your very one-sided interpretations of these events.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I'm saying that these are for the most part good decisions for trans equality, and you interpret it differently.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:01 PM   #21
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Because it fits her own needs.

Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.

Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.

Boudicca won't even concede for transgirls to use a separate single space area to alleviate the stress it causes on some of these females- again, because she doesn't know about it or, if she does, does not consider it as important as her own needs. She stated that these cases are female girls being discriminatory to transpersons instead of even considering other options like them coping and avoiding reliving a reminder of their trauma again and again and again.
No wonder many girls might just choose NOT to use those types of co-ed rooms, or may even change schools. I think most parents might do it quietly, or the girl will feign some drastic need to leave. Anything to get out of it with the least confrontation which could be just more triggering. That's why a lot of these cases don't get reported or brought to court. That process is horrible too.
They are statistically certain to exist in most of these spaces. There will be abuse survivors trying to cope while others yell at them for being transphobic. They might not have the courage to even say why they cant cope.

If you think this is anecdote, just look at stats, though not every girl is affected the same. Sometimes stats use rape, attempted rape, or other types of assault. Some abuse is way worse than others and I'm not going into it. She can look for herself to see. There may be 6 in the room, and there may be none and they will have reactions unique to themselves.

These spaces are important to them and some girls are frankly not going to handle a male body in their changing space very well. If it is a family member abusing them, this may be the only safe space they know.
The reaction may depend on the personality of that trans person though, perhaps if they were friends beforehand, and how caring and connected the male-bodied person is or can appreciate the reality of those issues to offer appropriate consideration of the girl's absolute need to feel safe there. Many of the other girls also won't know. At this age it is pretty secret and often shameful so they may say different reasons for their actions to not want to be in that space. Even adult women do this. Shame lasts a long time.

Hopefully it is just simple ignorance on the topic.
Maybe she will read a bit about it and find out more about girl's lives.
I am very much aware of all of that, and have a lot of sympathy for those girls and women. Many of my female friends (both cis and trans) have been sexually assaulted before and I know the trauma they go through because they speak to me about it. It's also a high likelihood it would happen to me now as well, which is why I've had to learn to be more careful and cautious around men I'm not familiar with. Hell, I've already made some decisions around men that would have put me in danger and I didn't realize it until later.

But we are not men, and shouldn't be judged as men, or as a gateway for men to intrude into spaces they are not welcome. And experiencing trauma doesn't give anyone a license to inflict trauma on others as a protective measure.

Last edited by Boudicca90; 11th February 2021 at 06:20 PM.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:02 PM   #22
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,744
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Their mental health and trauma doesn't matter to Boudicca because she doesn't even know it exists, how her presence may be a trigger, and actually believes that she is the one who needs to be affirmed by THEM...not knowing the severe damage it can cause.
If she passes and keeps a towel on, perhaps not. A passable trans man (also with a towel on) likely would, though. Not seeing a bright line rule which will make everyone feel safe here.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:10 PM   #23
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If she passes and keeps a towel on, perhaps not. A passable trans man (also with a towel on) likely would, though. Not seeing a bright line rule which will make everyone feel safe here.
This is a good point.

If I'm in a women's locker room or spa I always keep my lower half covered out of respect for the other women there, and I'm passable enough that I am seen as a woman as long as nobody knows I have a penis. But a passable trans man keeping his lower half covered would be rightfully seen as a man and I would imagine there would be an issue there.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 07:55 PM   #24
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,060
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
Oh FSM, please save us from this utter poppycock!
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 09:41 PM   #25
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Because genitals do not determine gender, as I have stated before. A female/woman can have a penis and a male/man can have a vulva.
Yes. We have read that most trans persons don't go all the way with the SRS surgeries, for various reasons. So that's certainly would not a woman make. I'll assume invasive surgery can be dealt with, or not, later on.

Let's say d4m10n finally leaves his man closet and admits that he has been a woman all along. His struggles with this are over and he is 100% sure of it.
She likes the name Judi and she is already used to it because she looks just like Jude Law (but more of the current off-season Jude, and without any of his cash)

Judi asks for your advice on the things she needs to do now and moving forward. She hates this Covid weight and wants to sign up asap at the "Women's Gym" down the road.

What advice do you give her on her next steps? What minimal actions does she need to do before signing up at "Women's Gym"??
This is the current Judi:


Last edited by Sherkeu; 11th February 2021 at 09:46 PM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 09:45 PM   #26
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,917
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Yes. We have read that most trans persons don't go all the way with the SRS surgeries, for various reasons. Given. So let's move on....

Let's say d4m10n finally leaves his man closet and admits that he has been a woman all along. His struggles with this are over and he is 100% sure of it.
She likes the name Judi and she is already used to it because she looks just like Jude Law (but has none of that kind of cash value)

Judi asks for your advice on the things she needs to do now and moving forward. She hates this Covid weight and wants to sign up asap at the "Women's Gym" down the road.

What advice do you give her on her next steps? What minimal actions does she need to do before signing up there?
This is the current Judi:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/08...7573130914.jpg

Her bra strap is showing and she doesn't seem to care - 1/10, would not bang.
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 05:04 AM   #27
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Good decisions for trans equality, bad decisions for females. I suppose that's a matter of "interpretation"

Still neither paranoid nor delusional though.

Are you walking back your prior claim that this is all in the heads of females? Would you rather clarify your position to be clearer that it's a matter of you not caring that these policies harm females?
No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.
Boudicca90 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 05:58 AM   #28
Manger Douse
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.
We know what your saying - the problem is you've been given evidence that you're wrong
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 06:30 AM   #29
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,744
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
This is the current Judi
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 08:29 AM   #30
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 881
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Boudicca must not know that in every 30 person locker room of youth girls, there are very likely at least 3 or 4 who experience sexual assault from a male, usually known to them. They often develop PTSD.
When I first started trying to figure out a stance on these issues, one of the things I wanted to see were rates of things like sexual assault/violence/murder on trans since many of the measures put forward to begin with were in regards to physical safety. While it is hard to really get completely accurate stats, it was surprising to me that trans rates were basically falling in line with women in a lot of categories. Not to overgeneralize but the reaction to the risks to transgenders is weird when you consider the status quo allowed for women.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 08:45 AM   #31
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
But we are not men, and shouldn't be judged as men, or as a gateway for men to intrude into spaces they are not welcome.
How do you, personally, distinguish between a transwoman who isn't passing and a cisman?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 08:47 AM   #32
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
If I'm in a women's locker room or spa I always keep my lower half covered out of respect for the other women there, and I'm passable enough that I am seen as a woman as long as nobody knows I have a penis. But a passable trans man keeping his lower half covered would be rightfully seen as a man and I would imagine there would be an issue there.
As I've said before, you personally are not someone I see as a risk.

What should we do about those that do NOT keep covered out of respect for the women here?

What do we do about those that are NOT remotely close to passing?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 08:52 AM   #33
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
No, I'm saying that these policies don't harm females at all. Rather they benefit transgender females, but not at the expense of cisgender ones.
The girls who have been told that they don't have a choice about whether or not they are seen by a penis-haver while naked haven't been harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were told that you have no choice and men were free to look at you while you're naked whether you like it or not?

The female prisoners who were raped by the penises of transwomen placed in their cells with them weren't harmed? Would you consider it harm to you if you were raped by a cisman placed in a confined area with you against your will?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 09:10 AM   #34
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,903
The are only two possible questions are:

1. To what degree do women... err I guess say deserve ("deserve" isn't exactly the right word and has connotations of entitlement I'm not trying to put across, but something like that) spaces kept separate from men for purpose of safety, security, and dignity.

2. How do we define "woman" for the purposes of applying point 1.

The problem is both of those questions have been declared "Oh dear God how dare you even ask, you not only have to agree with me but you have to see it as so completely obvious as to not even be worth asking.."

So what are we supposed to talk about? Hardshell versus softshell tacos? (Hardsell, softshell tacos are burritos that didn't commit and I will die on that hill.)
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 12th February 2021 at 09:50 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 09:24 AM   #35
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,557
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Hardsell, softshell tacos are burritos that didn't commit and I will die on that hill.
I'll get my bow...
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 09:28 AM   #36
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,917
"I'm telling you it's a taco. I don't care that your bigoted vision sees a sausage roll, it's every bit a taco in all the ways that really count. Stop mis-fooding me!"
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 09:51 AM   #37
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,903
And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 09:52 AM   #38
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,760
The biggest progress made in installment 5 of this thread was apparently that we convinced Boudicca to use "female" where the rest of us would use "woman". Almost certainly to further deny and erase the biological facts and the distinction between biology and social construct.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 10:00 AM   #39
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,760
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I will ask then what is the problem with just segregating bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports by genitalia then? Penis and vaginas demarcation, drop male/female and man/woman all together.

That seems like it would solve the problem yet very few people are really seeming to jump on it.
You know it doesn't seem like it would solve the problem.

The problem is that transwomen want to perform womanhood, but medical and surgical transition is expensive and risky. Even under an NHS programme, it would still not be a trivial thing that anyone can do on a weekend. And a lot of transwomen may have good reasons for not doing that anyway.

Segregating by genitalia tells transwomen that their feelings and needs aren't valid unless they've actually gone under the knife. That doesn't seem fair.

Remember, the solution can't just be the easiest solution for the curmudgeons and the unreconstructed reactionary conservatives. It also has to honor the premise, needs, and feelings of transsexuals.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 10:03 AM   #40
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,903
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You know it doesn't seem like it would solve the problem.
Of course it wouldn't, I fully know that.

I'm saying it everyone in this discussion was being honest that would solve the problem because it gives everyone* what they are claiming they want.

(*Well I mean as far as the women and the transwomen are concerned. I'm still not happy, but it's been made clear that I don't have a voice in this discussion.)
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.