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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th February 2021, 04:20 AM   #241
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
There are some really good ones in there.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:38 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There are some really good ones in there.

So without having to go read about the whole science of the census...
Are they adding a gender question as something extra? or actually using it as a real measure of # of men and # of women?

Because the second one would truly be insane and would erode the ability to track a whole bunch of public issues.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:41 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
So without having to go read about the whole science of the census...
Are they adding a gender question as something extra? or actually using it as a real measure of # of men and # of women?

Because the second one would truly be insane and would erode the ability to track a whole bunch of public issues.
As far as I understand it the problem is that they are now allowing the answer to the "sex" question to be whatever the individual identifies as, rather than their actual "birth sex" as it used to be.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:02 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(A couple of days old, I know, but....)
I think it's the opposite sex, and this is more true for women.


I don't think the average woman is all that concerned about modesty in the presence of lesbians, assuming the lesbian's behavior isn't problematic.

I think guys might be a little bit more squeamish about being naked in front of a gay guy. I'm not, anymore, but I will admit the first time I took a shower in a locker room after one of my friends came out of the closet, it was a bit awkward for me. That lasted about 10 minutes. (He was someone that I frequently joined in athletic competitions with, so taking a shower in his presence wasn't unusual.)

Maybe everyone is modest in the presence of a male if we think the male might be enjoying the view. For females, there's at least some doubt about that even among people who are gay or who we think might be gay.

It's very hard to sort out what is social conditioning and what is instinct among humans. I have a feeling that modesty is at least partially instinctive, and is definitely sex-linked, but proving that would be difficult or impossible.
I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:09 AM   #245
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.
You're still ignoring that the rates are completely different because about 95% of the population is heterosexual. A woman, when presented with 20 women in a locker room, should only expect about 1 to be prone to the "lustful eyes" thing whereas, when presented with 20 men in a locker room, she should expect about 19 of them to be. In one case we're talking about some rare exception, in the other we're talking about the vast majority.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:16 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I question this. I don't think it was the rule, but rather an occasional thing especially in the deep South. Toilets were fairly expensive to start with, plus the available real estate to make an extra washroom is a real cost. Googling a little showed the same one or two images over and over, not the many thousands expected. There were more dual fountains than separate unisex washrooms.
you've discovered the lie of "separate but equal". Sure, not that many buildings had redundant toilets. Instead, black people simply didn't have one they could use. It was very common for buildings to have only a "White's only" restroom.

I simply don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that racial segregation in public bathrooms was not rigorously enforced. This is a stunning ignorance of the relevant history.

You are correct that there were not redundant restrooms everywhere. Black people simply did not have access to public restrooms in white parts of society. This was a small facet of Jim Crow that intended to keep blacks in their place, by making simple existence outside the designated niche established by the white supremacist state impossible. Outside of the black parts of town, it would be very difficult indeed to perform the basic biological necessities of life, be it using toilets, buying food, using transit, and so on. That was the whole point, to prevent comingling of blacks and whites by building these barriers that made sharing the same spaces impractical.

Finding a place to take a piss was such a problem for black motorists that a popular guide book, the Green Book, was published listing restrooms, hotels, and other necessities that were available to black patrons.

Quote:
Black travelers often had to carry buckets or portable toilets in the trunks of their cars because they were usually barred from bathrooms and rest areas in service stations and roadside stops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ne...ist_Green_Book
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:17 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You're still ignoring that the rates are completely different because about 95% of the population is heterosexual. A woman, when presented with 20 women in a locker room, should only expect about 1 to be prone to the "lustful eyes" thing whereas, when presented with 20 men in a locker room, she should expect about 19 of them to be. In one case we're talking about some rare exception, in the other we're talking about the vast majority.
I don't follow your point. Trans women are even more rare than lesbian women.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:20 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I posted a link to a story of a lesbian girl being ejected from a school locker room over very similar concerns about modesty. Such complaints about modesty were very common during the years of the gay rights debates, less so now. Prior to the more mainstream acceptance of homosexual people, very similar complaints about modesty were made.

I think you're likely right that today most people would not raise an objection, but only because the social norms have moved enough that many no longer feel this way about gay and lesbian people, or at the least have the common sense not to raise an objection for fear of social backlash.
You really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to women's modesty. We had several lesbians in my all-girl high school. When one of them revealed her 'crush' on another friend, that's when things got into an 'avoid' stage. But not because of modesty concerns. Otherwise, we were all friends.

But a boy or man in there? TOTALLY different. Female bodies are not a mystery to females body owners. It's just not a big deal, lesbian or not.

If you had not figured it out my now, females aren't as visually enticed as males. FACT. Deny it, and suffer my wrath of avalanching facts about it. Or...just look at the market for naked bodies and see who the customers are. Please do not gaslight us females or distort reality. We ALL know it to be true from all of human history in every place and culture, everywhere.

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Old 15th February 2021, 05:23 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You really have no idea what you are talking about with respect to women's modesty. We had several lesbians in my all-girl high school. When one of them revealed her 'crush' on another friend, that's when things got into an 'avoid' stage. But not because of modesty concerns. Otherwise, we were all friends.

But a boy or man in there? TOTALLY different. Female bodies are not a mystery to females body owners. It's just not a big deal, lesbian or not.
Cool anecdote.

I posted a link to a story where the ACLU had to become involved to protect the rights of a lesbian girl to use a sex-segregated locker room. Here's the press release in case you missed it.

Originally Posted by DECEMBER 17, 2002
LOS ANGELES - The American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California and the National Center for Lesbian Rights today filed a lawsuit on behalf of Ashly Massey, an eighth grader from the rural town of Banning who was forced to sit in the principal's office during physical education class after the gym teacher heard that she was a lesbian.

According to the legal complaint, soon after the gym teacher heard that Ashly was a lesbian, she called Ashly's mother to inform her that there was a problem with Ashly being in the girl's locker room because of Ashly's sexual orientation.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/...al-orientation

An embarrassing history that the bathroom defenders would rather not be brought up I'm sure.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:32 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't follow your point. Trans women are even more rare than lesbian women.
It depends on what policy exactly you'd use. If you only allow fully-transitioned transwomen they'll be very rare, if you go by self-id they'll be less rare but it also becomes more prone to abuse, all the way up to simply having unisex facilities with no separation at all. The only data I've seen so far on sexual harassment (not full-blown assault, but simply harassing behaviour like what we're focusing on) compared single-sex to unisex facilities in the UK and found significantly higher incidence rates in the latter.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:38 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cool anecdote.

I posted a link to a story where the ACLU had to become involved to protect the rights of a lesbian girl to use a sex-segregated locker room. Here's the press release in case you missed it.



https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/...al-orientation

An embarrassing history that the bathroom defenders would rather not be brought up I'm sure.
It was a stupid complaint (by an adult btw) and decision. End of story.

What is your point? That men in women's locker rooms is fine because one single girl Ashly was wrongly banned in her rural town by some asshats? I agree with the ACLU!!

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Old 15th February 2021, 05:39 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It was a stupid complaint and decision. End of story.

What is your point? That men in women's locker rooms is fine because one single girl Ashly was wrongly banned in her rural town by some asshats?
My point is that panic mongering about queer sex pests in locker rooms is a bad-faith tactic decades old.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:46 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My point is that panic mongering about queer sex pests in locker rooms is a bad-faith tactic decades old.
Ok...so lets just let all the kids be one big locker room, queer, bi, straight, male, female, non-binary. Genitals matter not one whit. Why does just a piece of flesh or outdated modesty matter in education or when you just need to get dressed? How silly and unevolved that is!!
That way no one feels excluded or feel like they are in the wrong space. 100% inclusion. No male. No female. No segregation.
They will all just get used to it.
What do you think. Good policy?

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Old 15th February 2021, 05:52 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Ok...so lets just let all the kids be one big locker room, queer, bi, straight, male, female, non-binary. Genitals matter not one whit. That way no one feels excluded or that they feel like they are in the wrong space. No male. No female. No segregation.
They will all just get used to it.
What do you think. Good policy?
I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:54 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...d9ReuFyTQF5KK-
Here is their definition of woman:
"One of two binary categories of gender, typically associated with feminine behaviors and constructs."

I seem to recall getting a fair bit of pushback for suggesting a similar definition awhile back.
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Old 15th February 2021, 06:14 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns
In a High School setting, about 85% of the trans kids will desist if not put on a bunch of medical inteventions so maybe one big room is possible with a LOT of privacy.

Also if the spaces are shared, you'll need to give a class on the difference between shampoo, hairgel, and ejaculate to keep the kids sanitary and, to be honest, not totally grossed out.. Also need to tell some of them that blood spatter and clots on the floor are not from a murder. Then have some sort of lock box for disposing the blood items. The non-menstruators will need some education if they see blood coming into the shared drain.

Maybe they even need to have separate showers in the same area....oh but then we are back to segregation...gah!

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Old 15th February 2021, 06:34 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns
Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.
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Old 15th February 2021, 06:42 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.
Lol be mad. A hit dog will holler, or so I've been told.

Read my post again. I suspect that addressing privacy concerns would please a large portion of the anti-trans voices in this debate, but a smaller fringe of TERFs would still insist on the divide for purely symbolic reasons largely driven by animus. TERFs and right wing extremists would probably agree on this animus-driven stance, though for slightly different reasons.

There's a thread for pearl clutching about the term TERF (among others). Feel free to participate there where it isn't off topic.
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Old 15th February 2021, 06:42 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Jehovah.





"First though, it is necessary to point out that the terms sex and gender are not synonyms. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females. Gender refers to the continuum of complex psychosocial self-perceptions, attitudes, and expectations people have about members of both sexes. Even the terms male and female, man and woman are not interchangeable. What it means to be male or female originates from physical characteristics derived from sex chromosomes and genes that lead to certain gonads, internal and external genitalia, and physiological hormones. Being a man or a woman holds broader meaning, with cultural concepts of masculinity and femininity coming into play."




https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org...matter/2008-07







"'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:



Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.



Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society."




https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html







"Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. In humans, male sex is determined (with a few exceptions) by the presence of the Y chromosome. A gene on the Y chromosome directs the differentiation of the fetal gonads into testes, resulting in the production of testosterone — which affects many of the body’s tissues — early in development. People with one X and one Y chromosome, or variants like XXY or XYY, are typically male, while those who have solely X chromosomes are usually female. People have a sex; animals have a sex; all tissues, including the fetal placenta, have a sex; even individual cells have a sex.



Gender, on the other hand, is socially, culturally and personally defined. It includes how individuals see themselves (gender identity), how others perceive them and expect them to behave (gender norms), and the interactions (gender relations) that they have with others. Often one’s gender aligns with one’s sex: Men tend to assume more masculine behaviors and traits, and to be seen as masculine by others around them, for example. But not always. Increasingly, researchers like Stefanick and Schiebinger are realizing that both men and women exhibit a spectrum of gender traits that aren’t purely masculine or feminine."




https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spr...ur-health.html







"Gender, according to the Global Health 50/50 definition, refers to the socially constructed norms that impose and determine roles, relationships, and positional power for all people across their lifetime. Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities. Gender is not a binary term. It includes the understanding that in many people, traits of masculinity or femininity coexist and are expressed to different degrees. Gender attributes are fluid; more than two thirds of women and men report gender-related characteristics traditionally attributed to the opposite sex. In transgender people, gender identity differs with the sex they were assigned at birth. So far, transgender people have generally been underrepresented in clinical studies to date, although this underrepresentation is changing. Gender is an equally important variable as biological sex in human health, and influences the behaviour of communities, clinicians, and patients. Gender roles represent the behavioural norms applied to men and women in society, which influence individuals' everyday actions, expectations, and experiences, including diet, perceived stress, smoking, and physical activity, and affect health and disease susceptibility. Gender identity describes the fluidity of how a person perceives oneself as a woman or a man, which affects feelings and behaviours. Gender relations refer to how we interact with or are treated by people, on the basis of our ascribed gender. Institutionalised gender reflects the distribution of power between men and women in the political, educational, and social institutions in society and shapes social norms that define, perpetuate, and often justify different expectations and opportunities for women and men."



https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...561-0/fulltext







And then read this medical paper in full (pdf):



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...d9ReuFyTQF5KK-







And then..... stop asking this stupid question (for which the answer was obvious long ago to anyone who knows anything about the subject and who also wishes to debate/discuss in good faith)
There's nothing that says Trans women are Women and should be treated as such which was your claim
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Old 15th February 2021, 06:45 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your use of TERF for everyone who doesn’t agree with every detail of your opinions is wrong, telling and ********. Just stop.
I do see that term thrown around a lot, as if anyone that agrees is some card carrying sycophant. I have no such label for myself. Never been a feminist, or a 'radical' on anything. haha. I don't know anyone in my circle who would consider themselves any such thing.

Even saying 'TRA' isn't fair really since activists argue vehemently amongst themselves about all this too. (and this is sort of new knowledge to me since a lot has been scrubbed/canceled from the internet and harder to find)

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Old 15th February 2021, 08:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
you've discovered the lie of "separate but equal". Sure, not that many buildings had redundant toilets. Instead, black people simply didn't have one they could use. It was very common for buildings to have only a "White's only" restroom.

I simply don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that racial segregation in public bathrooms was not rigorously enforced. This is a stunning ignorance of the relevant history.

You are correct that there were not redundant restrooms everywhere. Black people simply did not have access to public restrooms in white parts of society. This was a small facet of Jim Crow that intended to keep blacks in their place, by making simple existence outside the designated niche established by the white supremacist state impossible. Outside of the black parts of town, it would be very difficult indeed to perform the basic biological necessities of life, be it using toilets, buying food, using transit, and so on. That was the whole point, to prevent comingling of blacks and whites by building these barriers that made sharing the same spaces impractical.

Finding a place to take a piss was such a problem for black motorists that a popular guide book, the Green Book, was published listing restrooms, hotels, and other necessities that were available to black patrons.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ne...ist_Green_Book
This is the only part that had anything to do with the post you replied to.

When someone claims "oh yeah, we have had three bathrooms in the States for just until the last few decades", it's kind of reasonable to call that out as made-up bull ****.
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:30 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Looks like the ONS definitions that LJ gave are disputed by clinical researchers. So much for LJ's claims of the ONS representing the opinion of the medical experts.
Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
There's nothing that says Trans women are Women and should be treated as such which was your claim
Yeah. LJ keeps telling us that all the important and vexing questions have been decisively answered by the medical authorities. But according to these citations, the medical authorities are stuck at exactly the same point as us laymen.
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Old 15th February 2021, 08:32 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is the only part that had anything to do with the post you replied to.

When someone claims "oh yeah, we have had three bathrooms in the States for just until the last few decades", it's kind of reasonable to call that out as made-up bull ****.
Apologies, I misunderstood your post.

An interesting historical oddity is that the Pentagon has twice as many restrooms as you might expect for exactly this reason.

Quote:
The Pentagon was designed in accordance with the racial segregation laws in force in the state of Virginia at the time, with separate eating and lavatory accommodations for white and black persons; the sets of lavatories were side by side, and the dining areas for black persons were in the basement.[41][42] However, when Roosevelt visited the facility before its dedication, he ordered removal of the "Whites Only" signs, and the Pentagon became the only building in Virginia where segregation laws (which remained in force until 1965) were not enforced. The side by side sets of restrooms still exist, but are used by all.[42]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon
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Old 15th February 2021, 09:51 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Even saying 'TRA' isn't fair really since activists argue vehemently amongst themselves about all this too. (and this is sort of new knowledge to me since a lot has been scrubbed/canceled from the internet and harder to find)
Labels are harder in this topic than in many. It isn't a left/right thing, at least not in ISFLand.

Saying, "People who generally think that biological sex is very important and support rights for female only spaces and activities." versus "People who generally think that in all social interactions people should be treated according to internal gender identity" just gets tedious.

So, "TRA" it is. And "TERF"? People use it as an insult, which is unfortunate, and most people who are called TERFs aren't radical feminists, so that's unfortunate, too.

Maybe I'll start saying, "biological segregationist" versus "psychological segregationist". Somehow I don't think that would work well, either.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:07 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... the medical authorities are stuck at exactly the same point as us laymen.
Careful...
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:15 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I do see that term thrown around a lot, as if anyone that agrees is some card carrying sycophant. I have no such label for myself. Never been a feminist, or a 'radical' on anything. haha. I don't know anyone in my circle who would consider themselves any such thing.

Even saying 'TRA' isn't fair really since activists argue vehemently amongst themselves about all this too. (and this is sort of new knowledge to me since a lot has been scrubbed/canceled from the internet and harder to find)
Hmm, you are right that many transphobes like you may not really be feminists. But you certainly like to use feminist language and justifications a lot, in your case you use them to back up your "Won't somebody think of the children?!" arguments.

That's why I am coming around to the fact that TERF may not be as accurate as the alternative suggested acronym of FART - Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

And I never really considered myself a 'TRA', since while I am an activist and organizer, I don't tend to focus on trans rights much in real life compared to other causes. Lately I've been more focused with mutual aid, Medicare For All in California, and improving free and affordable housing in my community. Trans rights are very important to me, but there is not too much locally to really do in a state like mine.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:16 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah. LJ keeps telling us that all the important and vexing questions have been decisively answered by the medical authorities. But according to these citations, the medical authorities are stuck at exactly the same point as us laymen.
To be perfectly honest, when it comes to the question "what is a man", I'm not sure a PhD psychologist is more qualified to answer than a 17 year old girl.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:19 AM   #268
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I'd say there is no point in this much "Stop the discussion and let's label everything" but then I remember what the actual topic is...

Again "I have four fingers and a thumb!" screaming at "No I have five fingers!" wash, rinse, repeat is not an argument.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:19 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, you are right that many transphobes like you may not really be feminists. But you certainly like to use feminist language and justifications a lot, in your case you use them to back up your "Won't somebody think of the children?!" arguments.

That's why I am coming around to the fact that TERF may not be as accurate as the alternative suggested acronym of FART - Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

.
What's a good word for someone who calls every sports woman in the world lazy because they can't admit men have a physical advantage over women? Misogynist maybe?
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:29 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
The same thing IGLYO is trying to do in the "liberal" direction. They're both an attack on trans rights.
Okay, I've wanted to address these falsehoods for a while now.

IGLYO and the other liberal/leftist organizations you have deemed as anti-trans rights are fully supportive of us and our goals. I'm not sure what game you are trying to play by painting our allies as anti-trans, but you are absolutely wrong.

And the fact that one of the only organizations you cite as being supportive of us are the Log Cabin Republicans?! A blatantly anti-LGBTQ group posing as a supporter of our rights but support anti-LGBTQ politicians and issues at every turn? They are sellouts who care more about paying less taxes than their own civil rights, and certainly don't support trans rights.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:39 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
What's a good word for someone who calls every sports woman in the world lazy because they can't admit men have a physical advantage over women? Misogynist maybe?
As I said before, I only say that for sports women/girls who use their transphobia as an excuse for why they lost.

Like the girls who lost to Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller, and instead of losing gracefully, are trying to infringe on their rights to compete with their own gender/sex. And the bigots in this case (Selina Soule, Alanna Smith and Chelsea Mitchell) have partnered up with known hate group Alliance Defending Freedom in trying to discriminate against us.

I have no sympathy for people like that.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:44 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be perfectly honest, when it comes to the question "what is a man", I'm not sure a PhD psychologist is more qualified to answer than a 17 year old girl.
Dracula, on the other hand, knows what's up. But enough talk…
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:47 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
As I said before, I only say that for sports women/girls who use their transphobia as an excuse for why they lost.



Like the girls who lost to Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller, and instead of losing gracefully, are trying to infringe on their rights to compete with their own gender/sex. And the bigots in this case (Selina Soule, Alanna Smith and Chelsea Mitchell) have partnered up with known hate group Alliance Defending Freedom in trying to discriminate against us.



I have no sympathy for people like that.
But it's not just the women you've just now mentioned losing to men, it's ALL of them losing to men - are they all TERFS to?

Why do women not run as fast as men in your opinion, if not laziness?
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:49 AM   #274
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I'm tempted to ask "why do you need the 'trans' qualifier if you assert you are a woman?" 'Trans' acknowledges that there is a real difference. But I'm pretty sure that must have been covered several thousand posts ago and also went nowhere.
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:49 AM   #275
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Okay. Let's try a different approach here. Let's take the language off the table as much as possible and still be talking.

100 people consisting of people with both penises and vaginas (that's various people who have either a penis or vagina not people with both oh you know what I mean...) all enter an athletic competition. At the end of the competition the top 10% of people all have a penis. The people with vaginas feel they are not being represented in the sport and start a seperate league where they have a chance of being in the top 10%.

Without using the words man, woman, male, female, trans(X), or any other oblique referencing to the labeling of the sexes and genders answer the following the question.

Is the complaint and actions of the vagina havers valid? Why or why not?
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Old 15th February 2021, 10:52 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think personal privacy is the best way to ensure personal privacy. I don't necessarily believe sex-segregated spaces need to end, but there should be a general acknowledgement that our understanding of people who aren't cis and heterosexual exist and that sex-segregation alone is not adequate to provide an attraction free environment.


I don't see why trans people need to be thrown under the bus when the obvious solution of just adding privacy screens is available. Even beyond the trans debate, most people would probably prefer more, not less, privacy in these spaces. Just give it to them.

I have a sneaking suspicion that even if such personal privacy was guaranteed and modesty/safety were no longer a concern, the most virulent TERFs would still object to trans inclusion. It's as much about sending a message that trans people are the "other" than it is about any practical concerns
Bwahahaha! This kind of stupid statement tells me you have probably never been in a locker room! Perhaps you can show us all how these "privacy screens" will work in the situations below... I'm keen to see what you have in mind!



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Old 15th February 2021, 11:00 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
But it's not just the women you've just now mentioned losing to men, it's ALL of them losing to men - are they all TERFS to?

Why do women not run as fast as men in your opinion, if not laziness?
They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.

Sports women who lose to actual men aren't what we are talking about here, like the Williams sisters losing to a man. That's not the issue here and accusations of "TERF" would make no sense.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:01 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Let's try a different approach here. Let's take the language off the table as much as possible and still be talking.

100 people consisting of people with both penises and vaginas (that's various people who have either a penis or vagina not people with both oh you know what I mean...) all enter an athletic competition. At the end of the competition the top 10% of people all have a penis. The people with vaginas feel they are not being represented in the sport and start a seperate league where they have a chance of being in the top 10%.

Without using the words man, woman, male, female, trans(X), or any other oblique referencing to the labeling of the sexes and genders answer the following the question.

Is the complaint and actions of the vagina havers valid? Why or why not?
Identical to weight divisions in boxing, or age classes.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:02 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Identical to weight divisions in boxing, or age classes.
I think that's a valid comparison.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:07 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Bwahahaha! This kind of stupid statement tells me you have probably never been in a locker room! Perhaps you can show us all how these "privacy screens" will work in the situations below... I'm keen to see what you have in mind!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j50y2cirbw...oom1.jpg?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq233w83kg...oom2.jpg?raw=1
Quote:
BREAKING UP THE GANG FOR GOOD?
For many architects, specification of traditional locker room gang showers has slowed to a trickle — even in varsity sports facilities. "I would say in the past 15 years, for every 95 showers we've designed, at most only five of those have been gang style," Patton says. "We've really moved to very privatized showering areas."

"Every guest has a different need when using a locker room," Heimmer says. "Uses range from guests who come dressed and are looking for a secure place to store their wallet and phone, to the pool user who needs a large accessible area to change, shower and prepare themselves for a day of work. Providing users with flexibility to have a personalized locker room experience that meets their needs is a key consideration for locker room design."

"It's all about inclusivity," says Ostertag. "If you have an all-gender locker room, it's really for those with disabilities, those with families and children, those who are transgender. It's really about making an area that's inclusive for everyone. And that's just what we try to achieve."

Modesty rules in 2017, no matter the user, according to Kocher. "You can say this is being driven to the forefront by the topic of providing transgender spaces, but the reality is everybody has some sense of privacy or level of shyness," he says. "If a person has the opportunity to use one space versus another, they're going to always migrate to the more private than the more public."
https://www.athleticbusiness.com/loc...n-privacy.html

There's no need for privacy in areas where people aren't nude. People putting on their cleats or shoulder pads don't need privacy stalls.
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