IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Capitol riot , donald trump , protest incidents , Trump controversies , Washington DC incidents

Reply
Old 15th June 2021, 12:27 PM   #281
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tucker on fox saying it's time for 'transparency' about Ashli Babbitt and her death.
He wants to know if the cop has a history of being 'reckless' as the family attorney believes. Apparently they are hiding the cops identity because they don't have a good explanation for the shooting.

Video in link

https://twitter.com/SHEsus__Christ/s...15514862600200
Extremely qualified statement, but I agree it's pretty grotesque that a cop can kill a member of the public while on duty and their identity is not a matter of public record automatically even months after the fact. Likewise for any reports about the use of force. Babbit's surviving family have the right to this information, even though I have no reason to believe that any info will lead to any successful wrongful death lawsuit or criminal complaint against the cop that escorted this CHUD to the forever box.

The rest of the lawsuit sounds like pure bunkum, but there should be complete transparency. I suspect that transparency will confirm what the video of Babbitt getting 360 no-scoped clearly showed, she got rightly shot dead by Capitol security because she was taking part in a violent coup attempt.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 15th June 2021 at 12:32 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 12:33 PM   #282
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,706
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, if Ashley Babbit had been black, we'd be hearing crickets chirping!
Well, difference is you have to shoot a few n______S to keep the others in line,but Babbit was a member of the Master race.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 12:35 PM   #283
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,706
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's unbelievable that a mob of violent angry people trying to get in a room where the people they want to attack are holed up should be viewed like that. We all saw it, multiple times. She was unfortunate enough to be the first person through the door (window in the door). WTF did the mob expect? No one had shot at them yet ergo no one would? The people inside would let them in?

Of course this is just Carlson upping his ratings by saying outrageous things.
Tucker is playing to the White Supremist crowd with "How dare the police shoot a WHITE WOMAN?".

I am shocked..SHOCKED I tell you..to hear that.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:08 PM   #284
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,950
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Extremely qualified statement, but I agree it's pretty grotesque that a cop can kill a member of the public while on duty and their identity is not a matter of public record automatically even months after the fact.
Why? My opinion is we release suspects names too quickly in most cases. A crime has even been identified at all, right? So this guy isn't even a "suspect". Not seeing a pubic benefit to identifying him publicly.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:16 PM   #285
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why? My opinion is we release suspects names too quickly in most cases. A crime has even been identified at all, right? So this guy isn't even a "suspect". Not seeing a pubic benefit to identifying him publicly.
Because an agent of the state used force, in this case lethal force, against a member of the public. Regardless of whether or not it was justified (all indications it was), such incidents should be a matter of public record, or at the very least available to the involved parties (or their next of kin).

Like you say, there's no crime here. There's no investigation that might be sensitive because the suspect, Babbitt, is dead and cannot be prosecuted. The records should be available to her family, even if that means they go running off on some fruitless lawsuit and propaganda tour. It's their right to file losing lawsuits or go on Fox News to talk about how their Q-poisoned, CHUD daughter is actually a martyr.

Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for agents of the state to be able to kill members of the public anonymously?
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 15th June 2021 at 01:20 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:32 PM   #286
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Extremely qualified statement, but I agree it's pretty grotesque that a cop can kill a member of the public while on duty and their identity is not a matter of public record automatically even months after the fact. Likewise for any reports about the use of force. Babbit's surviving family have the right to this information, even though I have no reason to believe that any info will lead to any successful wrongful death lawsuit or criminal complaint against the cop that escorted this CHUD to the forever box.

The rest of the lawsuit sounds like pure bunkum, but there should be complete transparency. I suspect that transparency will confirm what the video of Babbitt getting 360 no-scoped clearly showed, she got rightly shot dead by Capitol security because she was taking part in a violent coup attempt.
I think you need to consider the circumstances here. There are idiots in Dump's cult making death threats against mere election workers and their family members. His name should definitely not be released. We have the video. We know what happened.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:35 PM   #287
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think you need to consider the circumstances here. There are idiots in Dump's cult making death threats against mere election workers and their family members. His name should definitely not be released. We have the video. We know what happened.
Perhaps, but I have no idea if such concerns are a legitimate reason to not respond to a FOIA request.

To be honest, refusing to turn over information that the family likely has the right to possess is only adding fuel to the conspiratorial fire. The cops could easily be setting this family up for a minor legal win in order to compel these records, which will only validate the false narrative that the killing was improper.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:38 PM   #288
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps, but I have no idea if such concerns are a legitimate reason to not respond to a FOIA request.

To be honest, refusing to turn over information that the family likely has the right to possess is only adding fuel to the conspiratorial fire. The cops could easily be setting this family up for a minor legal win in order to compel these records, which will only validate the false narrative that the killing was improper.
That armada has already sailed.

There are instances when courts protect the identity of certain people. This one is legit. I don't see a judge ordering that name released but who knows.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:42 PM   #289
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That armada has already sailed.

There are instances when courts protect the identity of certain people. This one is legit. I don't see a judge ordering that name released but who knows.
WAPO claims that the cops did not respond at all to the FOIA request. Even if they were going to deny the request, a response of some kind with an explanation is required.

I wish there were better discussion in the press about what contexts a FOIA denial is permissible and if it seems likely that such criteria are met in this case.

Breaking the laws when it comes to FOIA request is probably not the best way to handle this nutbag family, and it could even disadvantage them in court later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...ba6_story.html
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 01:53 PM   #290
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,950
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Because an agent of the state used force, in this case lethal force, against a member of the public. Regardless of whether or not it was justified (all indications it was), such incidents should be a matter of public record, or at the very least available to the involved parties (or their next of kin).

Like you say, there's no crime here. There's no investigation that might be sensitive because the suspect, Babbitt, is dead and cannot be prosecuted. The records should be available to her family, even if that means they go running off on some fruitless lawsuit and propaganda tour. It's their right to file losing lawsuits or go on Fox News to talk about how their Q-poisoned, CHUD daughter is actually a martyr.

Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for agents of the state to be able to kill members of the public anonymously?
This sounds to me like you are just re-stating your opinion but not giving me any reasons to change my mind.

The officer isn't anonymous, he is known to people with a need to know.

Two good reasons to not make his name public are to not aid parties intending to to take his revenge and to not remove his anonymity without good reason. If the officer was reasonably suspected of a crime it might be different but that's not the case.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 02:31 PM   #291
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,697
On CNN.com
"Proud Boys descended into dysfunction and finger-pointing as members were arrested in US Capitol riot, new messages show"
Quote:
The same person went on to criticize other Proud Boys who handled communications and security on January 6, saying, "I mean, ******, 'tifa looks like professionals compared to us," referring to Antifa.
LOL. Yup, they sure do. Some clowns are even more clownish than others.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 02:36 PM   #292
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,175
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
On CNN.com
"Proud Boys descended into dysfunction and finger-pointing as members were arrested in US Capitol riot, new messages show"

LOL. Yup, they sure do. Some clowns are even more clownish than others.
Antifa sure is good. They managed to keep their participation in the Walk to the Capitol secret before, during and since.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 10:12 PM   #293
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,970
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for agents of the state to be able to kill members of the public anonymously?
Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for anyone involved in the killing of a terrorist to have their name publicised when there are several million goggle-eyed, bat-**** crazy terrorist-supporting Trumpistas making death threats against anyone not on their side? Remember, these are the same bunch of scumbag froot loops who threatened the lives of Lt Col Vindman and Christine Blasey-Ford for telling the truth before Congress, and threatened to kill Vice President Mike Pence for not doing what they wanted, even though there was no way for him to do it.

If a Delta Force team took out a terrorist cell in Columbia, would you expect JSOC to publicise the names of the soldiers involved?

If a Secret Service agent killed someone while they were attempting to assassinate POTUS, would you expect the Secretary of Homeland Security to publish the name of the agent involved?
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 10:49 PM   #294
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,697
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for anyone involved in the killing of a terrorist to have their name publicised when there are several million goggle-eyed, bat-**** crazy terrorist-supporting Trumpistas making death threats against anyone not on their side? Remember, these are the same bunch of scumbag froot loops who threatened the lives of Lt Col Vindman and Christine Blasey-Ford for telling the truth before Congress, and threatened to kill Vice President Mike Pence for not doing what they wanted, even though there was no way for him to do it.

If a Delta Force team took out a terrorist cell in Columbia, would you expect JSOC to publicise the names of the soldiers involved?

If a Secret Service agent killed someone while they were attempting to assassinate POTUS, would you expect the Secretary of Homeland Security to publish the name of the agent involved?
I agree 100%, keep his identity anonymous, it would basically ruin his life to release his name. the traitors are extremely fortunate that only a few of them died.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th June 2021, 11:01 PM   #295
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,158
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I agree 100%, keep his identity anonymous, it would basically ruin his life to release his name. the traitors are extremely fortunate that only a few of them died.
I am quite fine with keeping the officer anonymous for various reasons listed by you and others. With that said, though, if it's true that a properly applicable FOIA request is simply being completely ignored to accomplish that, rather than simply denied with the good cause that we may see to do so, that's a separate issue and plenty problematic itself.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 01:23 AM   #296
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
On CNN.com
"Proud Boys descended into dysfunction and finger-pointing as members were arrested in US Capitol riot, new messages show"

LOL. Yup, they sure do. Some clowns are even more clownish than others.
Soo...a bunch of local chapters, like when other serious street gangs collapse? Or will the muppets realize the problem and stay home?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 08:41 AM   #297
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,791
Congressional Gold Medal vote for January 6 police officers overwhelmingly passes House as 21 Republicans vote no

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/15/polit...ote/index.html

At this point if you are going to site there and argument that some members of Congress were and are literally on the side of the Insurrectionists, I'm going to demand you explain what would be different if they were.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 08:47 AM   #298
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,791
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do you honestly not see why it's a problem for anyone involved in the killing of a terrorist to have their name publicised when there are several million goggle-eyed, bat-**** crazy terrorist-supporting Trumpistas making death threats against anyone not on their side?
I think you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle.

SuburbanTurkey doesn't care because we're talking about a cop. A cop in danger goes beyond "acceptable losses" and into "positive net good" for him.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 08:58 AM   #299
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle.

SuburbanTurkey doesn't care because we're talking about a cop. A cop in danger goes beyond "acceptable losses" and into "positive net good" for him.
I would complain, but meh. My animus towards the police isn't my reasoning, but I suppose this personal attack is close enough to the truth to let slide.

It's an interesting example where right wing CHUDs, normally those quick to ask why someone who is mishandled by the police didn't "follow orders", are now seeing how the system circles the wagons and even makes the notion of recourse near impossible. I'm not holding my breath that there will be a come to Jesus moment for these people, but it's nice to dream.

Speaking of motivated reasoning, perhaps you can set aside the fact that you (and I) are both probably pretty happy this CHUD got shot dead and consider whether or not it's an acceptable state of affairs that someone's next of kin can't even access basic information about a fatal police shooting. How is there supposed to be any meaningful oversight into use of force if the police can anonymously kill members of the public, exonerate themselves, and bury all the details in the dark?

A credible fear of violent retaliation by unhinged conspiracy mongers may very well be a good reason to deny a FOIA request. The cops should have responded rather than just trying to ignore the law regarding public records. Perhaps they're just hoping to delay the release until after the CHUDs have moved onto a new outrage of the week and have largely forgotten about their "martyr" Babbitt.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th June 2021 at 09:03 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 09:05 AM   #300
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,791
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Speaking of motivated reasoning, perhaps you can set aside the fact that you (and I) are both probably pretty happy this CHUD got shot dead and consider whether or not it's an acceptable state of affairs that someone's next of kin can't even access basic information about a fatal police shooting.
I had people clutching their pearls at me for being on team "Bright Pink Mist" as to the Insurrectionists a long time ago. I find the fact one single person was allowed to cross the threshold into the actual Capital to be a massive shame. You don't fail to hold a position that badly. If anything I'll criticize the police for not shooting a LOT more people.

Where we differ is that I think Law Enforcement has become so toxic that it needs a gutting and full top/down rebuilt, while you are just living some sort of "I'm mad I missed the 60s" Berkeley fantasy and hate the idea of cops so much that you can't bring yourself to have their existence as a positive in any narrative.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 16th June 2021 at 09:06 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 09:07 AM   #301
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I had people clutching their pearls at me for being on team "Bright Pink Mist" as to the Insurrectionists a long time ago. I find the fact one single person was allowed to cross the threshold into the actual Capital to be a massive shame. You don't fail to hold a position that badly. If anything I'll criticize the police for not shooting a LOT more people.

Where we differ is that I think Law Enforcement has become so toxic that it needs a gutting and full top/down rebuilt, while you are just living some sort of "I'm mad I missed the 60s" Berkeley fantasy and hate the idea of cops so much that you can't bring yourself to have their existence as a positive in any narrative.
I'm not sure why you quoted that particular part of my post if you weren't going to reply to it in any meaningful way.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 09:09 AM   #302
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,611
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Let me guess... they live somewhere in or near "Deliverance" country
Oddly, not really. He lives 20 minutes outside of Atlantic City, and an hour from Philly. Not exactly cut off from civilization. He's what we call a Piney, a semi-redneck from the Jersey Pine Barrens. Thing is, I never heard him say a peep about politics. If it didn't fire a projectile or get him high, he had no use for it. Just a happy-go-lucky Wildman. I honestly don't know how to process this.

"Deliverance" country isn't a place. It's a state of mind. All too common among the sort of people on the Trump Crazy Train.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 09:14 AM   #303
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,791
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not sure why you quoted that particular part of my post if you weren't going to reply to it in any meaningful way.
My point is there no version of any narrative where a cop can even be neutral, much less good, with you.

You think the concept of cop is tainted and see it as your duty to point out that even the cop who ran into the burning building to save the orphans didn't separate his trash or whatever.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 09:22 AM   #304
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My point is there no version of any narrative where a cop can even be neutral, much less good, with you.

You think the concept of cop is tainted and see it as your duty to point out that even the cop who ran into the burning building to save the orphans didn't separate his trash or whatever.
As far as all available evidence shows, it's a clean shoot. Babbitt got unlucky because she finally ran into a cop in the Capitol that took their duty seriously. The shooting is a model of police restraint and proportionality when it comes to use of force in stressful situations.

I don't see what moralizing about good or bad cops has to do with whether or not police departments have to obey the law when it comes to FOIA requests.

That's the point I keep making. The cops didn't deny the FOIA request citing one of the exemptions allowed by law, they simply did not respond as required. This is a subversion of the law, which was passed as an explicit means of holding the government accountable to the public, that governs what is or is not considered public info.

My point is simple. The cops should obey the law when it comes to FOIA requests, even when the process is being used by people I don't like.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th June 2021 at 09:25 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:16 AM   #305
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 13,936
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
.....

That's the point I keep making. The cops didn't deny the FOIA request citing one of the exemptions allowed by law, they simply did not respond as required. This is a subversion of the law, which was passed as an explicit means of holding the government accountable to the public, that governs what is or is not considered public info.
....
Are the Capitol Police actually subject to FOIA regulations? The Congress has routinely exempted itself from laws that apply to the rest of the government. If so, is there a deadline for a response? Other departments routinely "slow walk" inconvenient FOIA requests. I don't think we can say "If you don't answer my question this week, you're breaking the law."
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:19 AM   #306
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
As far as all available evidence shows, it's a clean shoot. Babbitt got unlucky because she finally ran into a cop in the Capitol that took their duty seriously. The shooting is a model of police restraint and proportionality when it comes to use of force in stressful situations.

I don't see what moralizing about good or bad cops has to do with whether or not police departments have to obey the law when it comes to FOIA requests.

That's the point I keep making. The cops didn't deny the FOIA request citing one of the exemptions allowed by law, they simply did not respond as required. This is a subversion of the law, which was passed as an explicit means of holding the government accountable to the public, that governs what is or is not considered public info.

My point is simple. The cops should obey the law when it comes to FOIA requests, even when the process is being used by people I don't like.
Yeah but given the current situation maybe revealing this officer's name would be a bad idea.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:27 AM   #307
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but given the current situation maybe revealing this officer's name would be a bad idea.
There's a lawful way to deny a FOIA request that isn't being followed here.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:28 AM   #308
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Are the Capitol Police actually subject to FOIA regulations? The Congress has routinely exempted itself from laws that apply to the rest of the government. If so, is there a deadline for a response? Other departments routinely "slow walk" inconvenient FOIA requests. I don't think we can say "If you don't answer my question this week, you're breaking the law."
Yes, the FOIA law itself is quite toothless and many government agencies routinely blow off deadlines until forced by a judge to comply. It's a real weakness to the FOIA system and is maliciously used to undermine the spirit of the law. Unless people are willing to spend money on legal fees, the government can basically ignore a FOIA request.

Seems to me a bad PR move to give these CHUDs an issue where they might actually secure a small win in the courts. There's a good chance that they will prevail in getting these documents handed over by court order, and the right wing conspiracy machine will parade this minor victory as proof of a larger malfeasance.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th June 2021 at 10:35 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:39 AM   #309
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's a lawful way to deny a FOIA request that isn't being followed here.
How do you know that?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 10:51 AM   #310
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,043
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How do you know that?
As reported by the press, it's one of the elements they are suing for:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...ba6_story.html

Quote:
Aaron Babbitt said he requested the records in April under the Freedom of Information Act and got no reply. He said the city has neither provided records nor demonstrated “that the requested records are lawfully exempt from production.”

The D.C. government has not yet responded to the lawsuit in court. An initial hearing before a judge is scheduled for Sept. 3.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 01:02 PM   #311
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,517
The GOP legislators who voted not to give medals to the Capitol Police. House approves Congressional Gold Medals for Jan. 6 police officers. 21 Republicans voted no.
Quote:
The Republicans who voted no were Reps. Thomas Massie (Ky.), Andy Biggs (Ariz.), Lauren Boebert (Colo.), Michael Cloud (Texas), Andrew Clyde (Ga.), Warren Davidson (Ohio), Matt Gaetz (Fla.), Louie Gohmert (Texas), Bob Good (Va.), Paul Gosar (Ariz.), Marjorie Taylor Greene (Ga.), Andy Harris (Md.), Jody Hice (Ga.), Mary Miller (Ill.), Barry Moore (Ala.), Ralph Norman (S.C.), Scott Perry (Pa.), John Rose (Tenn.), Matt Rosendale (Mont.), Chip Roy (Texas), and Greg Steube (Fla.).
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 02:52 PM   #312
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 35,716
Tucker on fox says that the 'key people' involved in organising the attack haven't been charged because they are all FBI operatives.
These are the 'unindicted co-conspirators' mentioned in the indictments of the various Oathkeepers.

He's shocked!

I can’t keep up, it was peaceful, it was violent but lead by Antifa and now, it was violent but led by the FBI.

video in link

https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/st...75737543725066

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 16th June 2021 at 02:53 PM.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 03:14 PM   #313
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,970
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The GOP legislators who voted not to give medals to the Capitol Police. House approves Congressional Gold Medals for Jan. 6 police officers. 21 Republicans voted no.
Just so its clear who these people are...

Thomas Massie (Ky.)

Andy Biggs (Ariz.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Lauren Boebert (Colo.)
- Probable 1/6 insurrection co-conspirator
- QAnon nutjob

Michael Cloud (Texas)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Andrew Clyde (Ga.)
- Probable 1/6 insurrection co-conspirator
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Warren Davidson (Ohio)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Matt Gaetz (Fla.)
- Accused sex trafficker
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Louie Gohmert (Texas)
- Dumbest person in all of Congress
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Bob Good (Va.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Paul Gosar (Ariz.)
- Probable 1/6 insurrection co-conspirator
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Marjorie Taylor Greene (Ga.)
- Probable 1/6 insurrection co-conspirator
- QAnon nutjob

Andy Harris (Md.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Jody Hice (Ga.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Mary Miller (Ill.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Barry Moore (Ala.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Ralph Norman (S.C.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Scott Perry (Pa.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

John Rose (Tenn.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states

Matt Rosendale (Mont.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6

Chip Roy (Texas)

Greg Steube (Fla.)
- objected to the Electoral College count on 1/6
- signed Amicus brief in Texas lawsuit to overturn the election in four states
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 03:16 PM   #314
jnelso99
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 978
Huh - He says there were about 20 unindicted co-conspirators, and about 20 Republican congresspeople voted against the Congressional Gold Medals.
jnelso99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 03:42 PM   #315
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 29,342
What's the matter with Massie and Roy? Overslept that day?
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 03:45 PM   #316
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,970
Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
Huh - He says there were about 20 unindicted co-conspirators, and about 20 Republican congresspeople voted against the Congressional Gold Medals.

Who says that?
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 03:51 PM   #317
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 35,716
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Who says that?
Tucker on fox says that the 'key people' involved in organising the attack haven't been charged because they are all FBI operatives.
These are the 'unindicted co-conspirators' mentioned in the indictments of the various Oathkeepers.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 04:22 PM   #318
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tucker on fox says that the 'key people' involved in organising the attack haven't been charged because they are all FBI operatives.
I'd call him a ******* idiot, except that I know he does this to deliberately stoke his audience. He's worse than a ******* idiot. He's a ******* monster.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 04:25 PM   #319
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,970
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tucker on fox says that the 'key people' involved in organising the attack haven't been charged because they are all FBI operatives.
These are the 'unindicted co-conspirators' mentioned in the indictments of the various Oathkeepers.
The problem with Tuckums is he doesn't have any idea what he is talking about.

There are several uses of terms such as "PERSON ONE", "PERSON TWO" etc, one of those is to allow an indictment to move forward knowing that there are other, known, but as yet not arrested people who are involved. This is most likely the case here. The FBI have previously stated they expect there will be about 550 people arrested and charged in relation to 1/6 by the time its all done... at time of writing, there have only been 521.. so there are about 30 others still at large that they are looking for.

The entire premise of his baseless conspiracy theory is predicated on his personal assumption that those unindicted co-conspirators are FBI Agents. I posted links to and quotes from the Oath Keeper indictment earlier in the thread. I have also read it beginning to end.... there is absolutely nothing in there that even remotely indicate this to be the case.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 16th June 2021 at 04:29 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2021, 05:03 PM   #320
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The problem with Tuckums is he doesn't have any idea what he is talking about.
He knows exactly what he's talking about. It's a performance.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:17 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.