IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 20th June 2021, 11:47 PM   #41
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I don't have to make anything up. The spiritual crowd make up enough crap for everyone.

Mostly I sit silently in the dark back seats and watch the hateful soap opera play out with no contribution from me.

And that is the fascination. Sure, they claim to be all spiritual and full of love and all that. But in reality, they are all only interested in the mad politics of hate. All of them want to be top dog and are willing to throw anyone under the bus to achieve it. That includes some pretty dodgy activities.
So you sit at the back with an entirely closed mind and make scathing observations to reinforce your negative views.

Let me ask you, have you really spent 40 years attending spiritualist churches ? did you attend regularly or rarely? Have you received messages from spiritualist mediums?
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2021, 11:53 PM   #42
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

There's another experiment that doctors could do on people who hear voices. A regular course of chlorpromazine.
I was on largactil for ten years from 1969 to around 1980. The drug turned me into a zombie, and I fought my way off the drug one pill at a time, against psychiatric advice. I was then able to study and became an electronics engineer.

I still hear voices in my ears, but entirely ignore them,
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th June 2021, 11:58 PM   #43
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
That's called Indigestion.
Take some Pepto bismol

You're welcome.
It is not indigestion, it is like cold snakes writhing in my stomach. It started at the same time as I began to hear voices. I don't think that was coincidence.
The last time I went for spiritual healing a few years ago two women worked on me. One of them looked at the other and pointed to my stomach. The other woman looked and nodded. They could see something in my stomach, but they did not tell me about it.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 21st June 2021 at 12:01 AM.
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 12:16 AM   #44
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,408
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was on largactil for ten years from 1969 to around 1980. The drug turned me into a zombie, and I fought my way off the drug one pill at a time, against psychiatric advice. I was then able to study and became an electronics engineer.
Did you try any of several alternatives? Proper management of mental illness frequently depends on varying the medication in order to find the one that works best for the patient. Sometimes what works best changes over time. I will also point out that mental health care has come rather a long way in the last forty years. The industry is not now what it was when you chose to go untreated. Non-pharmacological management plans are very much an option.

That said, it is in the end entirely your choice whether to receive treatment or not. From our many interactions over the years I do not believe that you are a danger to yourself or to others, so I see no reason why you might be placed into involuntary treatment.

Disclaimer: I am not a mental health professional. Do not take my advice over that of trained health care personnel. I'm just a guy who happens to know some stuff.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 12:50 AM   #45
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I walked out of a bible class when I was sixteen because it said people will burn in hellfire. I did not believe that and I found in spiritualism they do not believe that either.
So you found the idea of hell to be unbelievable, but found this to be totally credible:

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I concluded that entities of low intelligence, like monkeys from the astral plane might have taken up residence in my aura and my stomach, when I was masturbating in my youth.
Monkeys from the astral plane started living in your stomach as a result of you masturbating.
Right.



I'm probably going to regret this, but what was it about the concept of being infested by intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane, that seemed credible to you?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 02:16 AM   #46
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So you sit at the back with an entirely closed mind and make scathing observations to reinforce your negative views.

Let me ask you, have you really spent 40 years attending spiritualist churches ? did you attend regularly or rarely? Have you received messages from spiritualist mediums?
Again with the accusations that others have a closed mind. Highly ironic considering how firmly closed yours is.

Did you watch the video I posted?
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 02:58 AM   #47
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,409
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So you found the idea of hell to be unbelievable, but found this to be totally credible:



Monkeys from the astral plane started living in your stomach as a result of you masturbating.
Right.



I'm probably going to regret this, but what was it about the concept of being infested by intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane, that seemed credible to you?

Nommed! That last sentence is the funniest thing I've read this year!
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 04:02 AM   #48
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Nommed! That last sentence is the funniest thing I've read this year!
Thanks!
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 04:39 AM   #49
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Nonsense. You first have to establish that entities exist Scorpion. Do you not get it yet?

Let us assume for the moment that entities do indeed exist. We live in a universe where they are absolutely real. This is universe A. We run your test and the static makes no difference. Is this now evidence that the entities don't exist?

Conversely we will assume as a hypothetical that entities absolutely do not exist. We now live in universe B where entities are absolutely not real. We run your test and the static does block the voices. Is this evidence that they do exist?

The fact is there could be any number of other, more logical reasons for people to have auditory hallucinations. In order for any test to be even remotely worth doing you need to exclude as many of those other possibilities as possible when setting up the test. This is why science, real science, is so vigorously run. We have to exclude all possible ulterior explanations for the results as best we can. This is also why psychics refuse to be tested. They know they can't run their typical scam tricks when the test is set up to prevent these tricks from being used. Once you have shut out cold and hot reading as options, they invariably fail to show any kind of powers.
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Then you're engaging in the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

I'd like you to address these posts as well please Scorpion.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 06:04 AM   #50
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So you found the idea of hell to be unbelievable, but found this to be totally credible:



Monkeys from the astral plane started living in your stomach as a result of you masturbating.
Right.



I'm probably going to regret this, but what was it about the concept of being infested by intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane, that seemed credible to you?
I could feel them and I started hearing voices.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 06:38 AM   #51
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
"Let us assume for the moment that entities do indeed exist. We live in a universe where they are absolutely real. This is universe A. We run your test and the static makes no difference. Is this now evidence that the entities don't exist?

Conversely we will assume as a hypothetical that entities absolutely do not exist. We now live in universe B where entities are absolutely not real. We run your test and the static does block the voices. Is this evidence that they do exist?

The fact is there could be any number of other, more logical reasons for people to have auditory hallucinations. In order for any test to be even remotely worth doing you need to exclude as many of those other possibilities as possible when setting up the test. This is why science, real science, is so vigorously run. We have to exclude all possible ulterior explanations for the results as best we can. This is also why psychics refuse to be tested. They know they can't run their typical scam tricks when the test is set up to prevent these tricks from being used. Once you have shut out cold and hot reading as options, they invariably fail to show any kind of powers."
The above is from a post by Mark Corrigan.

The answers to A and B are No and No
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 06:39 AM   #52
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I'd like you to address these posts as well please Scorpion.
I have answered on my thread to avoid taking this one off topic.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 06:50 AM   #53
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I could feel them
How? What does having an astral monkey inside you feel like? Also, how did you determine that what you were feeling was a wank-monkey, rather, than, say, a wank-badger?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
and I started hearing voices.
Oh, so these monkeys can talk, too? That's special.
Again, how does the idea that it can talk lead you to conclude it was a monkey?

Thinking about it, maybe I've misunderstood.
Were the voices telling you you had monkeys, or were the monkeys letting you know that life was going to be rather different from then on?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 07:03 AM   #54
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How? What does having an astral monkey inside you feel like? Also, how did you determine that what you were feeling was a wank-monkey, rather, than, say, a wank-badger?



Oh, so these monkeys can talk, too? That's special.
Again, how does the idea that it can talk lead you to conclude it was a monkey?

Thinking about it, maybe I've misunderstood.
Were the voices telling you you had monkeys, or were the monkeys letting you know that life was going to be rather different from then on?
I will answer on my thread.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 07:09 AM   #55
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
"How? What does having an astral monkey inside you feel like? Also, how did you determine that what you were feeling was a wank-monkey, rather, than, say, a wank-badger?



Oh, so these monkeys can talk, too? That's special.
Again, how does the idea that it can talk lead you to conclude it was a monkey?

Thinking about it, maybe I've misunderstood.
Were the voices telling you you had monkeys, or were the monkeys letting you know that life was going to be rather different from then on?"

I said they were something, 'Like' monkeys. I do not actually know what they are. But spiritualist sources say there are many creatures on the astral plane that do not incarnate on earth. You can laugh, but it is not unreasonable to believe what I feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.

I have said it feels like my stomach is full of cold snakes writhing around.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 07:16 AM   #56
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,900
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You can laugh, but it is not unreasonable to believe what I feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.
It is about as unreasonable as it is possible to get to believe that what you feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.

Though it doesn't make me laugh, it makes me sad for you.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 07:17 AM   #57
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
"Let us assume for the moment that entities do indeed exist. We live in a universe where they are absolutely real. This is universe A. We run your test and the static makes no difference. Is this now evidence that the entities don't exist?

Conversely we will assume as a hypothetical that entities absolutely do not exist. We now live in universe B where entities are absolutely not real. We run your test and the static does block the voices. Is this evidence that they do exist?

The fact is there could be any number of other, more logical reasons for people to have auditory hallucinations. In order for any test to be even remotely worth doing you need to exclude as many of those other possibilities as possible when setting up the test. This is why science, real science, is so vigorously run. We have to exclude all possible ulterior explanations for the results as best we can. This is also why psychics refuse to be tested. They know they can't run their typical scam tricks when the test is set up to prevent these tricks from being used. Once you have shut out cold and hot reading as options, they invariably fail to show any kind of powers."
The above is from a post by Mark Corrigan.

The answers to A and B are No and No
What is it with you and deliberately ignoring the main point of a post and only responding to the bits you want to?

If you had read the post you're responding to, you would have noticed that my point in asking those questions was to highlight that your test is meaningless unless it is properly controlled. You have to exclude as many alternative options as you possibly can before a test is even remotely useful.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 09:20 AM   #58
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,956
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You can laugh, but it is not unreasonable to believe what I feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.
WWOS? (What Would Occam Say?)

There is a far, far simpler explanation - that is, one requiring far fewer assumptions.

I think you can guess what that explanation is, and you’ve brought it into the conversation yourself.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 09:45 AM   #59
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,863
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So you found the idea of hell to be unbelievable, but found this to be totally credible:



Monkeys from the astral plane started living in your stomach as a result of you masturbating.
Right.



I'm probably going to regret this, but what was it about the concept of being infested by intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane, that seemed credible to you?

intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane is an amazing band name.

Nommed
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
If you see a Nazi. Egg them
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 09:46 AM   #60
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,409
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane is an amazing band name.

Nommed
That's two noms. Quite an achievement!
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st June 2021, 10:10 AM   #61
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,996
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It is about as unreasonable as it is possible to get to believe that what you feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.

Though it doesn't make me laugh, it makes me sad for you.
I'm kind of inclining in that direction myself now, with this latest little turn. "The spiritualists tell me..." is one thing- this is more like a five-year-old child believing with all his heart in Santa because he saw him at the mall one day, spinning a kind of theology to explain how he really does get all around the world in one night and down chimneys...and then just refusing to ever grow up.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 12:41 AM   #62
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It is about as unreasonable as it is possible to get to believe that what you feel and hear is some kind of astral lifeform.

Though it doesn't make me laugh, it makes me sad for you.
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
WWOS? (What Would Occam Say?)

There is a far, far simpler explanation - that is, one requiring far fewer assumptions.

I think you can guess what that explanation is, and you’ve brought it into the conversation yourself.
Well, yes.
There is one rather obvious explanation for this experience, one which I can't really mention out loud: you know what I mean, though.
As Fast Eddie B says, there's a far more parsimonious explanation, that doesn't need so many assumptions.
With that in mind, let me ask a few questions:
  • Did you see a doctor? If you could feel these movements in your stomach, then so could your doctor.
  • Did you see a medium? Did the idea of posession by astral entities come from them? Did any of them tell you it was true?
  • Are you aware of anyone who does not share your condition, who has had this experience? I mean, if it is real, it should be quite widespread, don't you think?
  • What happened? Do you still feel this sensation, and do you still hear the voices? If not, what do you think made it stop?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 12:41 AM   #63
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
intestinal wank-monkeys from the astral plane is an amazing band name.

Nommed
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
That's two noms. Quite an achievement!
Once again, many thanks!
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 03:46 AM   #64
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, yes.
There is one rather obvious explanation for this experience, one which I can't really mention out loud: you know what I mean, though.
As Fast Eddie B says, there's a far more parsimonious explanation, that doesn't need so many assumptions.
With that in mind, let me ask a few questions:
  • Did you see a doctor? If you could feel these movements in your stomach, then so could your doctor.
  • Did you see a medium? Did the idea of posession by astral entities come from them? Did any of them tell you it was true?
  • Are you aware of anyone who does not share your condition, who has had this experience? I mean, if it is real, it should be quite widespread, don't you think?
  • What happened? Do you still feel this sensation, and do you still hear the voices? If not, what do you think made it stop?
No I never mentioned this to a doctor.
I got the idea of astral entities from A trance lecture by Ursula Roberts
I have not discussed it with any medium, but two healers could clearly see something in my stomach. One pointed to my stomach and the other looked and nodded. But they did not tell me anything, probably because they did not want to scare me.
I have not mixed with other mental patients, so do not know anyone who complains of the same condition,
Yes, I still feel something moving in my stomach and I still hear voices.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 04:14 AM   #65
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No I never mentioned this to a doctor.
I got the idea of astral entities from A trance lecture by Ursula Roberts
I have not discussed it with any medium, but two healers could clearly see something in my stomach. One pointed to my stomach and the other looked and nodded. But they did not tell me anything, probably because they did not want to scare me.
I have not mixed with other mental patients, so do not know anyone who complains of the same condition,
Yes, I still feel something moving in my stomach and I still hear voices.
Thanks for your considered reply.
It does, of course, raise more questions.
Why did you not go to a doctor? If you could feel something moving around inside you, that wasn't there before, it would seem the obvious thing to do.

Can anyone other than you feel something moving in your stomach?

Regarding the highlighted: you have told this anecdote many times before. It is no more convincing now than the first time you mentioned it. If you did not speak to the two ladies, then you do not know what they were saying, nor do you know what they were pointing at. Those details you have filled in yourself.
For example, it is perfectly possible that they were commenting on your shirt. You can't say they weren't, because you don't know.

As a general point: it has been repeatedly shown that your recollection of the teachings of the various spiritualist churches you attended decades ago is as faulty as anyone else's would be of such a thing.
You have also admitted that you don't really understand what those teachings are.
You have also admitted that some of those teachings are false.
So, when you say you 'got the idea from a trance lecture', what exactly does that mean?
Did Ursula Roberts herself say that the concept of astral animals haunting one's guts is a part of how the spirit world works, or did that just inspire you to come up with the idea yourself?
Have any other mediums confirmed the validity of this idea? My point being that, if mediums are real, then only the messages they get from the spirit world can be taken as true. You are not a medium, and- as I recall- you do not claim to be in direct contact with the spirit world yourself. If you got this idea on your own, then you have no way of knowing that it is true, in terms of what you believe about the spirit world.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 04:22 AM   #66
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No I never mentioned this to a doctor.
Mistake #1
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I got the idea of astral entities from A trance lecture by Ursula Roberts
Mistake #2.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not discussed it with any medium, but two healers could clearly see something in my stomach. One pointed to my stomach and the other looked and nodded.
That is mere reinforcement. They were trying to reinforce each other as much as you.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But they did not tell me anything, probably because they did not want to scare me
How caring of them, they claimed they could see a serious problem for your health, but they could not be bothered doing anything about it. Just how messed up is that? And you somehow think these are good people when they point and laugh at you and then walk away.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not mixed with other mental patients, so do not know anyone who complains of the same condition,
Intestinal wank monkeys are not a common complaint.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, I still feel something moving in my stomach and I still hear voices.
I feel things moving in my stomach. It's called normal digestion. Hearing voices is certainly not normal.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 04:29 AM   #67
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,650
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was on largactil for ten years from 1969 to around 1980. The drug turned me into a zombie, and I fought my way off the drug one pill at a time, against psychiatric advice. I was then able to study and became an electronics engineer.

I still hear voices in my ears, but entirely ignore them,
And this is why I stopped making fun of 'Scorpion'.

After all, it is quite apparent that this man has some serious disabilities and as such, his extremely unusual claims should not be used to produce comedy.
__________________
I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency.

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 04:34 AM   #68
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How caring of them, they claimed they could see a serious problem for your health, but they could not be bothered doing anything about it. Just how messed up is that? And you somehow think these are good people when they point and laugh at you and then walk away.
This just occurred to me too. If these women were supposed to be healers, in a church, doing healing- why did they not heal Scorpion?
He's said he thinks it was because 'they didn't want to scare him', but there's no point at all in going to a healing session where the healers pretend you're fine and don't tell you if there's anything wrong, then discuss among themselves all the ailments they have identified but are not going to treat.
Scorpion: again, it seems quite clear where this delusion has come from. Simply insisting that it is something else won't change that, nor will it help you.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 05:28 AM   #69
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,180
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
What is it with you and deliberately ignoring the main point of a post and only responding to the bits you want to?

If you had read the post you're responding to, you would have noticed that my point in asking those questions was to highlight that your test is meaningless unless it is properly controlled. You have to exclude as many alternative options as you possibly can before a test is even remotely useful.
I would very much like to have this answered Scorpion.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 05:57 AM   #70
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This just occurred to me too. If these women were supposed to be healers, in a church, doing healing- why did they not heal Scorpion?
He's said he thinks it was because 'they didn't want to scare him', but there's no point at all in going to a healing session where the healers pretend you're fine and don't tell you if there's anything wrong, then discuss among themselves all the ailments they have identified but are not going to treat.
Scorpion: again, it seems quite clear where this delusion has come from. Simply insisting that it is something else won't change that, nor will it help you.
Bit of a problem, no? We are good and holy spiritual healers and can see that you have a serious health problem. We are going to do nothing about it. Actually we are not even going to tell you what it might be. We will not even give any hint of what one might do about it, nor recommend a possible route for treatment. We shall simply point in the general area. And walk away.

Aren't they nice folks? All good and holy and spiritual?

To Scorpion, this is fantastic information given to him by spiritualists. But what exactly did they tell him? Nothing, that's what.

They didn't even tell him about the spiritual intestinal wank monkeys. Scorpion made that up afterwards. On his own.

BTW blessings upon the Cosmic Yak for coining a phrase I will never forget.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 06:38 AM   #71
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,648
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
And this is why I stopped making fun of 'Scorpion'.

After all, it is quite apparent that this man has some serious disabilities and as such, his extremely unusual claims should not be used to produce comedy.
I agree with this.

As you may have seen in another part of the ISF, Magrat's elder son, my step-son, has schizophrenia, and has stories just like Scorpion. Fortunately, he has decided that his doctors are doing a very good job for him, so is cooperating fully.
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat.
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 06:46 AM   #72
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,996
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Bit of a problem, no? We are good and holy spiritual healers and can see that you have a serious health problem. We are going to do nothing about it. Actually we are not even going to tell you what it might be. We will not even give any hint of what one might do about it, nor recommend a possible route for treatment. We shall simply point in the general area. And walk away.

Aren't they nice folks? All good and holy and spiritual?

To Scorpion, this is fantastic information given to him by spiritualists. But what exactly did they tell him? Nothing, that's what.

They didn't even tell him about the spiritual intestinal wank monkeys. Scorpion made that up afterwards. On his own.

BTW blessings upon the Cosmic Yak for coining a phrase I will never forget.
It does seem to me that after having had the unspoken point-and-a-nod conversation ("do you see that?" "indeed I do") might be a bit late to worry about whether the pointee is going to be scared by it.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 07:03 AM   #73
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,843
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It does seem to me that after having had the unspoken point-and-a-nod conversation ("do you see that?" "indeed I do") might be a bit late to worry about whether the pointee is going to be scared by it.
But an alarmed sucker can be worked for years.

Or decades, or generations. This appears to have happened with our poor fellow forumite, whom I too will cease to mock.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 07:29 AM   #74
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It does seem to me that after having had the unspoken point-and-a-nod conversation ("do you see that?" "indeed I do") might be a bit late to worry about whether the pointee is going to be scared by it.
Yes. One has to wonder what would inspire the supposedly "spiritual" people to needlessly and intentionally wind up the vulnerable.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 07:50 AM   #75
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,650
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I agree with this.

As you may have seen in another part of the ISF, Magrat's elder son, my step-son, has schizophrenia, and has stories just like Scorpion. Fortunately, he has decided that his doctors are doing a very good job for him, so is cooperating fully.
Thanks much for the agreement.

Also, I have suggested to 'Scorpion' several times that he seek help, but he has continually refused to do so. And unfortunately, this sort of thing happens all of the time with these sorts of people.
__________________
I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency.

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 07:50 AM   #76
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 4,561
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It does seem to me that after having had the unspoken point-and-a-nod conversation ("do you see that?" "indeed I do") might be a bit late to worry about whether the pointee is going to be scared by it.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes. One has to wonder what would inspire the supposedly "spiritual" people to needlessly and intentionally wind up the vulnerable.
Good point, turingtest- I hadn't thought of that.
Yes, so what we're left with is healers who don't want to heal, and who also don't want to alarm someone, but do the very thing guaranteed to alarm them- and leave them, alarmed and unhealed, for decades.
Sounds positively malign to me.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 08:19 AM   #77
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes. One has to wonder what would inspire the supposedly "spiritual" people to needlessly and intentionally wind up the vulnerable.
You didn't answer my questions.


Let me ask you, have you really spent 40 years attending spiritualist churches ? did you attend regularly or rarely? Have you received messages from spiritualist mediums?
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 08:34 AM   #78
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,413
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You didn't answer my questions.


Let me ask you, have you really spent 40 years attending spiritualist churches ? did you attend regularly or rarely? Have you received messages from spiritualist mediums?
Yep, often by invitation. Have I received messages from so-called spiritualist mediums? Yep. All BS. Every single one.

Now what?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 08:36 AM   #79
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Thanks for those of you who have expressed sympathy for me and stopped taking the piss, but I am confident I am fundamentally right. I spoke to psychiatrists on and off for several years, and when I applied for my psychiatric records under the data protection act I found every one of them said I was delusional. They are just like all of you and were of no help whatever.

On the other hand spiritualism gave me the answers I needed, and healing cured me of several symptoms. Like fire flowing through my chakras, which I no longer feel.

My experiences have been quite extensive over more than 50 years, I worked as an engineer without medication for decades. I am comfortable in a flat with everything I need. Many schizophrenics are living in the street. They get no help and it is naïve of some of you to imagine that doctors will save them.

I suggest to you all that I am right and you are all wrong.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2021, 08:39 AM   #80
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yep, often by invitation. Have I received messages from so-called spiritualist mediums? Yep. All BS. Every single one.

Now what?
Then you have been unlucky. I am certain some mediums are genuine and I have had evidential messages. I could also often feel spiritual healing as heat.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:42 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.