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Old 22nd June 2021, 08:42 AM   #81
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Then you have been unlucky. I am certain some mediums are genuine and I have had evidential messages.
Luck has nothing to do with it. Learning how to do it myself, that had a lot to do with it.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I could also often feel spiritual healing as heat.
That old trick?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 08:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...when I applied for my psychiatric records under the data protection act I found every one of them said I was delusional. They are just like all of you and were of no help whatever.
You seem to define help as first requiring everyone to agree that your statements are accurate representations of the truth, when in a better frame of reference your statements are clearly the kinds of delusions we expect from someone suffering from schizophrenia. One of the hallmarks of schizophrenia is the persistent belief that nothing is wrong with you.

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My experiences have been quite extensive over more than 50 years...
As have those of your critics. You ask that yours be taken at face value while completely dismissing the experience of others. That has nothing to do with schizophrenia; it's just rude.

Do you have any experience living as a mentally healthy person with someone else who suffers from schizophrenia?

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Many schizophrenics are living in the street. They get no help and it is naïve of some of you to imagine that doctors will save them.
Where I live there are many schizophrenics living in the street, and their illness poses a serious problem. They do not receive treatment not because it is ineffective, but because there are financial and social factors that complicate the proposition in their cases. The most distressing cases are those that are too schizophrenic to pursue a normal life, but not ill enough as to require involuntary commitment. Others are committed, treated, and released. They then stop taking their medication, or cannot obtain it easily enough, and relapse. Schizophrenia does not go away simply because you decide to stop treating it, or because you disagree with the diagnosis.

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I suggest to you all that I am right and you are all wrong.
But you have to do more than suggest it. You have to provide proof that others can appreciate, and you have to take criticism seriously.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 08:53 AM   #83
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Thanks for those of you who have expressed sympathy for me and stopped taking the piss, but I am confident I am fundamentally right. I spoke to psychiatrists on and off for several years, and when I applied for my psychiatric records under the data protection act I found every one of them said I was delusional. They are just like all of you and were of no help whatever.

On the other hand spiritualism gave me the answers I needed, and healing cured me of several symptoms. Like fire flowing through my chakras, which I no longer feel.

My experiences have been quite extensive over more than 50 years, I worked as an engineer without medication for decades. I am comfortable in a flat with everything I need. Many schizophrenics are living in the street. They get no help and it is naïve of some of you to imagine that doctors will save them.

I suggest to you all that I am right and you are all wrong.
I suggest that you have not only no evidence to back up that claim, but a form of negative evidence because most of your experiences related to us by you have a much more simple and parsimonious explanation. You have schizophrenia.

Look, I can understand not enjoying mockery, and I hope that you do not lump me in to a group that has been mocking you, but I do not understand why you label everyone else as being closed minded (me included) when we are asking for any kind of evidence for any ofyour claims, or are pointing out the logical knots you tie yourself in, and yet you sit triumphantly stating that you are right and no one could convince you otherwise.

I do not have a problem with you constructing your own personal spirital philosophy and believing it. That's fine, do what you want in your own time as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. What I do have an issue with, although not really a problem per se, is you coming onto this message board and proclaiming that we as sceptics and scientists are all wrong and you are right, and then when asked to provide evidence you refuse to do so.

What I REALLY have a problem with is the accusations of closed mindedness aimed at several posters in this and other threads by inference, and aimed at me very explicitly. I am not closed minded. I require evidence to accept as true any proposition upon which to base my life, my thinking or my actions. The bigger the effect that holding a position to be true will have on me the more evidence I need to convince me. If you told me that you went for a pizza for dinner last night, I would likely just accept this as being true without something specific to show that it was not the case (eg. I know for a fact you had thai, or that you hated pizza or something).

A whole system of belief though? That I will need evidence for every part of. I will need evidence that there is a god. I will need evidence that there is such a thing as a soul. I will need evidence that we reincarnate etc etc.

Further, this evidence will need to correlate with evidence we already have about the nature of the universe and basic logic. You can show me something that purports to be evidence for the soul, but it had better explain all the advances in neuroscience we as a species have made. You can show me what you claim to be evidence of god, but it better tally with cosmology and astrophysics.

All I want, and I feel confident in saying all sceptics want, is evidence for a belief or idea before we accept it. That's not being closed minded. That's having a filter in place on an open mind.

I would LOVE for there to be a happy afterlife. I would really love to be able to talk to the dead. I would give anything, ANYTHING I own to be able to talk to my friend who killed himself, or see either of my grandmothers again. I would give anything to have them back in my life in a real way that meant that they were not just gone never to return. All I am asking is to be shown that this is the case and not just wishful thinking and con tricks. So far everything I've seen of "mediums" has been one of those two things.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 08:57 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Thanks for your considered reply.
It does, of course, raise more questions.
Why did you not go to a doctor? If you could feel something moving around inside you, that wasn't there before, it would seem the obvious thing to do.
Can anyone other than you feel something moving in your stomach?
I went to a mental hospital in 1969 and had many symptoms, I did not mention things moving in my stomach as that was the least of them.
I have never mentioned it to anyone until writing about it here.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So, when you say you 'got the idea from a trance lecture', what exactly does that mean?
Did Ursula Roberts herself say that the concept of astral animals haunting one's guts is a part of how the spirit world works, or did that just inspire you to come up with the idea yourself?
Have any other mediums confirmed the validity of this idea? .
Ursula Roberts was a medium who gave lectures at the spiritualist association in the 1970's She used to go into a trance and a spirit purportedly spoke through her. I attended many of her lectures over years.
I do not remember her specifically speaking of entities in the stomach, she spoke generally of obsession by entities. She died years ago so I cannot contact her now.
I don't recall any other mediums talking of these things.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not remember her specifically speaking of entities in the stomach, she spoke generally of obsession by entities. She died years ago so I cannot contact her now.
Why not? Why can you not contact her now? All of this long thread is predicated on doing exactly that with apparent ease.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:26 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post

A whole system of belief though? That I will need evidence for every part of. I will need evidence that there is a god. I will need evidence that there is such a thing as a soul. I will need evidence that we reincarnate etc etc.
There is no such evidence. Do you expect me to do what nobody has ever been able to do, and prove the existence of God or the soul. ?

In most religious people it is a matter of faith, but I could not believe in the bible so I went looking for answers elsewhere.

I have investigated several different cults and gurus, and read many books on things like theosophy and the occult, as well as spiritualism, and I reached a belief system that is unlikely to be changed by anyone here.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:31 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why not? Why can you not contact her now? All of this long thread is predicated on doing exactly that with apparent ease.
I have not been to a church for years, and I don't want to go now because of Covid. In any case if you attend a church you have to wait for a message, and you cannot ask them to contact anyone.
If you paid for a private sitting you might have to go to a number of fakes before finding a good medium. Even then they are unlikely to be able to contact a specific person.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:35 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not been to a church for years, and I don't want to go now because of Covid. In any case if you attend a church you have to wait for a message, and you cannot ask them to contact anyone.
If you paid for a private sitting you might have to go to a number of fakes before finding a good medium. Even then they are unlikely to be able to contact a specific person.
Does it strike you as odd that the mediums who perform "trance lectures" for a paying audience can get the specific spirit to show up on time, but when something other than the medium's needs are at stake, all of a sudden nothing is for certain?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:35 AM   #89
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If there is no evidence for something, why do you believe it? Why on Earth would you accept any proposition without evidence?

But more to the point, if you want to convince anyone else then yes, that is what you will need to do.

It's fine if you want to close your mind off and believe what you want to believe. That's entirely your right to do so Scorpion and I doubt anyone here would begrudge you your beliefs, I know I don't.

The problem is when you come here and tell us we are wrong. The problem is when you tell us that we are the closed minded ones. Do you get it yet? Your beliefs, odd though they may seem to us, are not the issue. The issue is your behaviour.

Yet again I notice that you snipped the vast majority of my point and only answered part of it. This is another thing that you do that is annoying.

What if I did that to you? What if I only ever answered questions you had on one topic and ignored everything else you said?

Let's say that the roles are reversed and I've gone to a forum of believers. A christian forum let's say. If I continued to refuse to discuss most of the points that were brought up against me to the point where I outright ignored that they were made and only responded to the bits I wanted to, would you think I was being rude?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not been to a church for years, and I don't want to go now because of Covid.
How convenient. I guess the spirits are defeated by Zoom as well.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In any case if you attend a church you have to wait for a message, and you cannot ask them to contact anyone.
Does that seem to you like a reliable method of finding out anything? Some spiritualist you don't know might contact a spirit you don't know at a time you cannot predict and pass along a message sufficiently vague that it is a "one size, fits nobody" deal that anyone can warp to their own personal circumstances?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you paid for a private sitting you might have to go to a number of fakes before finding a good medium. Even then they are unlikely to be able to contact a specific person.
So one would have to pay several unscrupulous charlatans for nothing in the vague hope that you might randomly happen upon a real one? And even the real one is unreliable? Does that really seem effective?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:44 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
If there is no evidence for something, why do you believe it? Why on Earth would you accept any proposition without evidence?

But more to the point, if you want to convince anyone else then yes, that is what you will need to do.

It's fine if you want to close your mind off and believe what you want to believe. That's entirely your right to do so Scorpion and I doubt anyone here would begrudge you your beliefs, I know I don't.

The problem is when you come here and tell us we are wrong. The problem is when you tell us that we are the closed minded ones. Do you get it yet? Your beliefs, odd though they may seem to us, are not the issue. The issue is your behaviour.

Yet again I notice that you snipped the vast majority of my point and only answered part of it. This is another thing that you do that is annoying.

What if I did that to you? What if I only ever answered questions you had on one topic and ignored everything else you said?

Let's say that the roles are reversed and I've gone to a forum of believers. A christian forum let's say. If I continued to refuse to discuss most of the points that were brought up against me to the point where I outright ignored that they were made and only responded to the bits I wanted to, would you think I was being rude?
I only saw one question mark in your lengthy post. As for evidence, I feel I have had a lot of subjective evidence, but it is only evidence to me and when I tell of messages I have received everybody here has other explanations.

For example, a medium once told me I had recently done a blue and white painting, but I was not satisfied with it. She told me the spirit world had inspired me to do it.

When I recounted that story someone here said maybe the medium saw spots of blue and white paint on your clothes. Which, on reflection I considered a farcical explanation. For one thing I painted in old clothes and did not wear them to church.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 22nd June 2021 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:48 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As for evidence, I feel I have had a lot of subjective evidence, but it is only evidence to me...
That means it isn't evidence in the way Mark (and the rest of us) use the term. And it isn't evidence that justifies you telling everyone else that you're right, they're wrong, and they're all closed-minded.

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...and when I tell of messages I have received everybody here has other explanations.
Nonsense. You just don't like the explanations. And not all of them are as farcical as your straw man.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How convenient. I guess the spirits are defeated by Zoom as well.

Does that seem to you like a reliable method of finding out anything? Some spiritualist you don't know might contact a spirit you don't know at a time you cannot predict and pass along a message sufficiently vague that it is a "one size, fits nobody" deal that anyone can warp to their own personal circumstances?

So one would have to pay several unscrupulous charlatans for nothing in the vague hope that you might randomly happen upon a real one? And even the real one is unreliable? Does that really seem effective?
No one said it was easy to contact the dead. But many times my grandmother came through to me, and in different churches up and down the country through mediums I had not seen before.

I understand it is not easy for spirits to contact us because they have to descend from the spirit world into the psychic darkness that surrounds the earth. They also have to try and work out when we will be in a church, and there is no sense of time in the spirit world.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:51 AM   #94
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I said I wouldn't mock Scorpion, but be damned if he doesn't seem to mock everybody here.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No one said it was easy to contact the dead.
You implied it when you invoked the notion of trance lectures. These are publicized events in which a medium purports to channel a spirit which gives a lecture at a prescribed time and place. In some cases admission is charged. Clearly the presence of the specific spirit at this time and place is a sure enough thing that all those constraints can be met.

But when some poor person has a legitimate need to contact the dead, the medium is unable to make that happen.

What's the difference? In the former case, the medium benefits either by prestige or by financial gain. In the former case the medium can pretty much say whatever he or she wants without fear of contradiction, because the lectures aren't usually personalized. In the latter case, the medium stands in very great danger of representing the wrong thing. The medium could be exposed as a charlatan if he or she says something that can be easily checked.

Because the rules of the game change according to the risk-benefit analysis from the medium's point of view, we conclude that mediumship is more likely to be fake than real.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:58 AM   #96
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There may have only been one question, but that doesn't mean there was only one point.

That's fine if that's what you want to believe, but there are a myriad of different possible explanations for any one of your experiences that do not require the supernatural. That's the issue people have.

The point is not "Well they must have seen the paint on your clothes, therefore no spirits". The point is that that's one possible explanation of a single occurrence that you likely only remembered because of confirmation bias.

The issue is you come into a thread declaring that you and you alone (here at least) hold the truth and we are all wrong. So we turn to you and say "ok, prove it" and you state that you cannot do so.

That's fine, a lot of people can't provide evidence for their beliefs. The difference is those people do not come here and tell us we are all wrong and that they are right, and if they do we ask them for evidence just as we have with you.

We aren't trying to break your beliefs Scorpion (I am certainly not, and I doubt anyone else is either) but that we are merely trying to get you to think critically about them. You have come to us, announced that we are all totally misinformed about, to give one recent example, where consciousness comes from, and when we say "ok, show the evidence for your claim" you tell us you can't. Then proceed to tell us we are wrong again.

If you can't prove your belief and don't mind that, then fine, you do you, but you don't then get to come here and tell us we are all wrong.

How would you react if a Muslim did exactly what you are doing? They turn up in the consciousness thread and say "You're all wrong, we each have a soul granted by Allah".

Ok, we say, do you have any evidence for that?

"Not that I can show you, but I've been to Mosque and felt the presence of Allah".

Well, we can explain that in a lot of ways, there are multiple different possibilities for what you felt. For example there's [explanation A].

"Ha, [explanation A] can't be true. Allah gave me these feelings. He proved himself to me."

Well, that's fine if that's what you believe I guess, but if you want to tell us we are wrong about something, you need to provide evidence.

"You're all closed minded! Allah is real and you are wrong. My personal experience proves it."

Would you accept this line of argument?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:01 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Does it strike you as odd that the mediums who perform "trance lectures" for a paying audience can get the specific spirit to show up on time, but when something other than the medium's needs are at stake, all of a sudden nothing is for certain?
Trance mediums are chosen by their spirit guide to do the work, and they work closely with the mediums.
Ordinary mediums at church services wait for spirits to contact them. They say there is usually a queue of spirits wanting to contact their relatives, but they can only handle a small number of them during a church service.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:08 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
If there is no evidence for something, why do you believe it? Why on Earth would you accept any proposition without evidence?
To be fair, isn’t faith without evidence a basic tenet of Christianity? So at least on this point, Scorpion is hardly alone.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:09 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post

"You're all closed minded! Allah is real and you are wrong. My personal experience proves it."

Would you accept this line of argument?
I would say, God is within all our hearts, and he answers to any name. He does not abandon people because their theology is wrong. Having said that I am quite certain Muhammad was a false prophet, and therefore Muslims are misguided about many things. I would doubtlessly try and point out what is wrong with the Quran, as I have done before.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:16 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Trance mediums are chosen by their spirit guide to do the work, and they work closely with the mediums.
So it's easy for some to contact the dead, and hard for others. And the determining factor in whether it's hard or easy is still the risk-benefit analysis from the point of view of the medium. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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Ordinary mediums at church services wait for spirits to contact them. They say there is usually a queue of spirits wanting to contact their relatives, but they can only handle a small number of them during a church service.
So you get messages that describe your hobbies. And apparently you grandmother (was it?) managed to get to the front of the line several times. And still, if a mortal needs urgently to contact the dead, according to you they might go away empty handed.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:18 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
To be fair, isn’t faith without evidence a basic tenet of Christianity? So at least on this point, Scorpion is hardly alone.
I don't think the claim is that Scorpion is alone. Yes, I know several Christians who define faith the way you've outlined, and similarly go on to say that nothing will shake their faith. Indeed, part of Mark Corrigan's line of questioning is predicated exactly on the premise that other religions make substantially similar claims to Scorpion's and that Scorpion treats them one way and his own religion a different way. Scorpion doesn't have to be unique in his beliefs to be both wrong and unfair.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:25 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I only saw one question mark in your lengthy post.
There are 6. I counted.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As for evidence, I feel I have had a lot of subjective evidence, but it is only evidence to me and when I tell of messages I have received everybody here has other explanations.
Subjective evidence is not a thing. Either there is sufficient evidence for a claim, or there is not. At best, there might be some evidence but not sufficient evidence for a claim.

It has nothing to do with "to me" or "to you" or to anyone.

Suppose I claimed that rainbows were actually unicorn flatulence (to invent an absurd example). I further claim that I have seen evidence that convinces me that this is the case. You press me on this matter, so I add the claim that some stranger told me so and that is sufficient evidence for me. You might ask "How does this stranger know any of that?" and I would tell you that they heard it from a pixie.

Would you, in all honesty, believe me? Or would you have huge pointy uncomfortable questions about such claims as I had just made?

Understand that I am not mocking you in any way by that. I am trying to get you to see how all of this looks to others. Some might say that is a futile effort, but I am willing to give it an honest go.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
For example, a medium once told me I had recently done a blue and white painting, but I was not satisfied with it. She told me the spirit world had inspired me to do it.
Look up things like Barnum statements. Exactly what useful information did that medium give you? None. Nothing. Nada. Rien du tout.

That is how it works. The medium told you nothing new or useful. You already knew everything the medium said.

Suppose the medium got it wrong and said red and blue instead. There are tried and tested methods to recover from a reading error like that. Were it me, I would go with the colour is wrong, colours in the spirit world are hard to see from this material plane, but the rest of it was bang on, right?

That is how easy it is. I stopped performing that nonsense when I discovered people believing my "readings" for real. I stepped away immediately. I was, or thought I was, doing it for entertainment. Most took it that way.

It only took one who believed it all real for me to say I am never doing that again. That was decades ago. I never received nor did I ever ask for money. It was an amusing party piece. Nothing more.

Now, I would not do this, because I am a moral man. But I could, rusty as I am, give you a reading/spirit message/whatever you like that would totally blast your socks off.

Do you know why I could do that with ease?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:27 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So it's easy for some to contact the dead, and hard for others. And the determining factor in whether it's hard or easy is still the risk-benefit analysis from the point of view of the medium. Doesn't that strike you as odd?



So you get messages that describe your hobbies. And apparently you grandmother (was it?) managed to get to the front of the line several times. And still, if a mortal needs urgently to contact the dead, according to you they might go away empty handed.
Not every medium is as good as others. They do not all work in the same way. Some just hear spirit voices, others can see spirits too. Not every medium can be a trance medium, and not every medium would want to be taken in trance.

Yes, a mortal may have difficulty contacting the spirits.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not every medium is as good as others. They do not all work in the same way.
Right, so easy for some to contact the spirit world and harder for others. And I note that the degree of purported difficult correlates to whether the medium is working for himself primarily or for others. How should such a correlation be correctly interpreted by a skeptic?

Quote:
Yes, a mortal may have difficulty contacting the spirits.
The question was how difficult it is for a mortal to get a medium to contact a spirit on the mortal's behalf. You cited instances where a medium was able to contact spirits on your behalf often, in the case of your grandmother. And in other cases where the message was no more profound or urgent than to describe what you had done recently as a pastime. Contrast that, please, with the urgent need (hypothetical, of course) of some person to contact a dead relative, say to reveal where the deed to the ranch was kept? Something that might legitimately be a fact that only the deceased knew.

The purported availability of the spirits seems to correlate more with the medium's likely ability to cold- or hot-read you than with the urgency of the need to supply specific, helpful information. Do you see how this is evidence more for mediumship as fakery than mediumship as a legitimate method of communing with the dead?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:42 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not every medium is as good as others. They do not all work in the same way. Some just hear spirit voices, others can see spirits too. Not every medium can be a trance medium, and not every medium would want to be taken in trance.

Yes, a mortal may have difficulty contacting the spirits.
Certainly do - I mean look at how the so-called "Silver Birch" lied to his meat puppet for decades and decades.

How are you meant to know what is the truth when you know such luminaires as Silver Birch tell lies?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:42 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not every medium is as good as others. They do not all work in the same way. Some just hear spirit voices, others can see spirits too. Not every medium can be a trance medium, and not every medium would want to be taken in trance.

Yes, a mortal may have difficulty contacting the spirits.
Mediums (media?) have no trouble and do it every day. Are they immortal?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:43 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I would say, God is within all our hearts, and he answers to any name. He does not abandon people because their theology is wrong. Having said that I am quite certain Muhammad was a false prophet, and therefore Muslims are misguided about many things. I would doubtlessly try and point out what is wrong with the Quran, as I have done before.
Well done, you have either completely misunderstood my point or deliberately evaded it and answered a question you wish I had asked.


ETA: Furthermore the last time you snipped out almost all of my post and only responded to one part of it you claimed it was because you only saw one question. There were clearly multiple questions in the post that you snipped into a fragment and you again chose to only answer one of them, and in a way that wasn't even remotely an answer to the question I was asking.

My question wasn't "Do you believe in Allah" or "Is islam a false religion". My question was would you accept the line of reasoning I gave for the fictional Muslim example? Would you accept Islam as true based on the line of reasoning I provided, and as an unstated premise, would you consider the person rude for their actions?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:45 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Certainly do - I mean look at how the so-called "Silver Birch" lied to his meat puppet for decades and decades.

How are you meant to know what is the truth when you know such luminaires as Silver Birch tell lies?
For the LOLs go look up the name of Ursula Roberts supposed spirit guide and consider the time from when it emerged.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:45 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I said I wouldn't mock Scorpion, but be damned if he doesn't seem to mock everybody here.
All too often, people who claim to personally know God are also people who are quite weird.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 10:51 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Well done, you have either completely misunderstood my point or deliberately evaded it and answered a question you wish I had asked.
Can't speak for anyone else but my heart pumps blood. If it ever has feelings, that will be a heart attack in progress. Or possibly an embolism.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:11 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Well done, you have either completely misunderstood my point or deliberately evaded it and answered a question you wish I had asked.


ETA: Furthermore the last time you snipped out almost all of my post and only responded to one part of it you claimed it was because you only saw one question. There were clearly multiple questions in the post that you snipped into a fragment and you again chose to only answer one of them, and in a way that wasn't even remotely an answer to the question I was asking.

My question wasn't "Do you believe in Allah" or "Is islam a false religion". My question was would you accept the line of reasoning I gave for the fictional Muslim example? Would you accept Islam as true based on the line of reasoning I provided, and as an unstated premise, would you consider the person rude for their actions?
It is difficult for me to separate my opinion of Islam from your question. I thought I had answered it.

No, I would not accept Islam as true because a Muslim said he felt Allah's presence. But as I tried to say God would not abandon people because their theology is flawed. I would not consider Muslims rude, just misguided.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:14 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Certainly do - I mean look at how the so-called "Silver Birch" lied to his meat puppet for decades and decades.

How are you meant to know what is the truth when you know such luminaires as Silver Birch tell lies?
It is not easy to find the truth in this world.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:17 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is difficult for me to separate my opinion of Islam from your question. I thought I had answered it.

No, I would not accept Islam as true because a Muslim said he felt Allah's presence. But as I tried to say God would not abandon people because their theology is flawed. I would not consider Muslims rude, just misguided.
But Ursula Roberts channeled a spirit called Ramadahn.

Really?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Right, so easy for some to contact the spirit world and harder for others. And I note that the degree of purported difficult correlates to whether the medium is working for himself primarily or for others. How should such a correlation be correctly interpreted by a skeptic?
I can't speak for skeptics


Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The question was how difficult it is for a mortal to get a medium to contact a spirit on the mortal's behalf. You cited instances where a medium was able to contact spirits on your behalf often, in the case of your grandmother. And in other cases where the message was no more profound or urgent than to describe what you had done recently as a pastime. Contrast that, please, with the urgent need (hypothetical, of course) of some person to contact a dead relative, say to reveal where the deed to the ranch was kept? Something that might legitimately be a fact that only the deceased knew.
The church mediums do not contact the spirits, the spirits contact them.
If you want specific information from the spirit world, you have to go on a long search for a good medium.


Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The purported availability of the spirits seems to correlate more with the medium's likely ability to cold- or hot-read you than with the urgency of the need to supply specific, helpful information. Do you see how this is evidence more for mediumship as fakery than mediumship as a legitimate method of communing with the dead?
Mostly the messages given are to comfort the bereaved, to reassure them the dead are still living in the spirit world. Specific information is hard to obtain. I dare say skeptics find this supports their views of fakery. Especially when some who claim to be mediums are actually fakes.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:33 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
There are 6. I counted.

Subjective evidence is not a thing. Either there is sufficient evidence for a claim, or there is not. At best, there might be some evidence but not sufficient evidence for a claim.

It has nothing to do with "to me" or "to you" or to anyone.

Suppose I claimed that rainbows were actually unicorn flatulence (to invent an absurd example). I further claim that I have seen evidence that convinces me that this is the case. You press me on this matter, so I add the claim that some stranger told me so and that is sufficient evidence for me. You might ask "How does this stranger know any of that?" and I would tell you that they heard it from a pixie.

Would you, in all honesty, believe me? Or would you have huge pointy uncomfortable questions about such claims as I had just made?

Understand that I am not mocking you in any way by that. I am trying to get you to see how all of this looks to others. Some might say that is a futile effort, but I am willing to give it an honest go.

Look up things like Barnum statements. Exactly what useful information did that medium give you? None. Nothing. Nada. Rien du tout.

That is how it works. The medium told you nothing new or useful. You already knew everything the medium said.

Suppose the medium got it wrong and said red and blue instead. There are tried and tested methods to recover from a reading error like that. Were it me, I would go with the colour is wrong, colours in the spirit world are hard to see from this material plane, but the rest of it was bang on, right?

That is how easy it is. I stopped performing that nonsense when I discovered people believing my "readings" for real. I stepped away immediately. I was, or thought I was, doing it for entertainment. Most took it that way.

It only took one who believed it all real for me to say I am never doing that again. That was decades ago. I never received nor did I ever ask for money. It was an amusing party piece. Nothing more.

Now, I would not do this, because I am a moral man. But I could, rusty as I am, give you a reading/spirit message/whatever you like that would totally blast your socks off.

Do you know why I could do that with ease?
I would not believe in unicorns and would be skeptical.

I had never seen the medium before, that gave me a message saying I had done a blue and white painting ,and that I was not satisfied with it.
How could she know I even painted anything, and she was right about my thinking even though I had never mentioned the painting to anyone, or that I was not satisfied with it. This was more than Hot or cold reading. This was facts that only I knew.

Do feel free to explain how you could give convincing messages.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Bit of a problem, no? We are good and holy spiritual healers and can see that you have a serious health problem. We are going to do nothing about it. Actually we are not even going to tell you what it might be. We will not even give any hint of what one might do about it, nor recommend a possible route for treatment. We shall simply point in the general area. And walk away.

Aren't they nice folks? All good and holy and spiritual?

To Scorpion, this is fantastic information given to him by spiritualists. But what exactly did they tell him? Nothing, that's what.

They didn't even tell him about the spiritual intestinal wank monkeys. Scorpion made that up afterwards. On his own.

BTW blessings upon the Cosmic Yak for coining a phrase I will never forget.

"That blokes full of spiritual intestinal wank monkeys"

"Stay away, don't make eye contact, he might try to shake hands!"
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:53 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I would not believe in unicorns and would be skeptical.
Really? OK, I have just claimed that unicorns are real and provided a back story for why I might believe such a thing.

And you do not believe my claims.

Getting a hint yet?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I had never seen the medium before, that gave me a message saying I had done a blue and white painting ,and that I was not satisfied with it.
How could she know I even painted anything, and she was right about my thinking even though I had never mentioned the painting to anyone, or that I was not satisfied with it. This was more than Hot or cold reading. This was facts that only I knew.
A spirit has spoke to me. You painted a blue and white painting with which you were unsatisfied.

Do you think or believe a spirit spoke to me, or did I glean that information by other means?

A spirit told me that the cops are out to get you. As evidence the cops have said in your hearing that you are "delusional" and should be locked up. How could I know that?

Answer honestly. Because I have merely selected the easy ones.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Do feel free to explain how you could give convincing messages.
Yeah. And your response is...what? Be clear. I am not trying to make your life miserable. I am trying to impart some level of understanding. Sure it might hurt or be difficult. I am willing to give it a go anyway. But it is a finite effort. I will not do it forever. So here is your chance. Take it, or don't. Ball is in your court.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:59 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I had never seen the medium before, that gave me a message saying I had done a blue and white painting ,and that I was not satisfied with it.
Not doubting your honest memory of that event, but I would love to hear a tape of that part of the reading.

I know someone who swears that an “intuitive” she used knew remarkable things about her during a session. She did have a tape. I listened to it and heard typical cold reading techniques at play.

For instance, the intuitive said something like “I’m seeing two children”. When the response came back, “I only have one son”, there was a pivot to, “Yes, I see that now, but wasn’t there talk of having a second child?” And so on. But to this day she believes this “intuitive” had psychic powers and knew things about her he could not otherwise have known. These guys are often highly skilled, and know how to play the game to very good effect.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:03 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is difficult for me to separate my opinion of Islam from your question. I thought I had answered it.

No, I would not accept Islam as true because a Muslim said he felt Allah's presence. But as I tried to say God would not abandon people because their theology is flawed. I would not consider Muslims rude, just misguided.
Yet again you ignore the fact there were multiple points in my post and just answer this one, although I note that this is a better attempt to answer my question.

So, you don't think that a Muslim telling everyone, including you, that we were all wrong because only they had it right and the only evidence they brought was their own personal experience would be rude?

You don't think that making a pronouncement of special knowledge backed up by no evidence whatsoever would be rude?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Yet again you ignore the fact there were multiple points in my post and just answer this one, although I note that this is a better attempt to answer my question.

So, you don't think that a Muslim telling everyone, including you, that we were all wrong because only they had it right and the only evidence they brought was their own personal experience would be rude?

You don't think that making a pronouncement of special knowledge backed up by no evidence whatsoever would be rude?
I don't see that some Muslim trying to tell their beliefs without evidence is rude. Christians and Jews do it all the time.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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