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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:21 PM   #121
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't see that some Muslim trying to tell their beliefs without evidence is rude. Christians and Jews do it all the time.
Really? So when they tell you that your beliefs are heresy and you will burn in hell for them, that is not rude?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:30 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't see that some Muslim trying to tell their beliefs without evidence is rude. Christians and Jews do it all the time.
1. The belief doesn't matter. It could be a Christian in my example.

2. It isn't just "tell[ing] their beliefs". It's telling everyone else they are wrong.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:34 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? So when they tell you that your beliefs are heresy and you will burn in hell for them, that is not rude?
They are not being rude, just misguided by their false prophet.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:42 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They are not being rude, just misguided by their false prophet.
But your particular false prophecy is correct. Is that your claim?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:52 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But your particular false prophecy is correct. Is that your claim?
I do not rely on any particular teachings, I gained an over view of things from many sources.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:52 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't speak for skeptics
Up until now you've had no problem telling us what you think about how skeptics think. How do you think skeptics should properly respond to the scenario I posed?

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The church mediums do not contact the spirits, the spirits contact them.
Whereas the really profitable ones can schedule a spirit's appearance in advance, and sell tickets.

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If you want specific information from the spirit world, you have to go on a long search for a good medium.
So after an arduous search, you landed upon a medium whose profound statement to you was that you had painted a blue-and-white painting. Seems anticlimactic.

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Mostly the messages given are to comfort the bereaved, to reassure them the dead are still living in the spirit world.
If I were bereaved and also in danger of losing the ranch, I'd assume my dead grandfather would want me to know where he secured the deed. His assurances to me that he's fine and dandy would be less important to me.

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Specific information is hard to obtain.
Except, apparently, when it can be used to impress the rube. I think what you mean to say is that useful and correct information is hard to obtain. Because that's the stuff, in some cases, we can be sure that only the deceased and the rube would have known. You're the one on the hook to differentiate this from parlor tricks.

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I dare say skeptics find this supports their views of fakery. Especially when some who claim to be mediums are actually fakes.
Good call. So when you tell us that you can't possibly be mistaken after hearing a bunch of obviously incoherent and inconsistent stuff from mediums -- good examples of which are apparently few and far between -- we fall back on that view. It's the one that best fits the evidence you're giving us.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 12:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They are not being rude, just misguided by their false prophet.
Whereas your prophets mediums are never wrong? You just got done telling me that not all mediums are good at their jobs, and that sometimes you have to look far and wide to find a good one. And some -- you confess -- are outright frauds! Doesn't that imply that a substantial fraction of them, if not an outright majority, are not very good? Your attempt to differentiate your beliefs from those of Muslims, on the basis of the purported central authorities, is failing rather badly.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not rely on any particular teachings, I gained an over view of things from many sources.
And over the course of this journey you admit you've forsaken sources you once considered authoritative. Is that really a position from which you can assert credible infallibility? Can you really say you know how to tell the good sources from the bad?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 01:05 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Whereas the really profitable ones can schedule a spirit's appearance in advance, and sell tickets.
Just to cherry pick that nugget. Somehow, the wingnuts cannot predict if and when a disembodied spirit might turn up. Perhaps, perhaps not. It cannot be predicted.

Yet they can always predict ticket sales. Why might that be?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 01:14 PM   #129
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If you go to enough mediums and they make enough guesses about you some are bound to make a few lucky guesses. Just call those (and the ones skilled enough in hot and cold reading to fool you) the good/genuine ones, and the less lucky and/or skilled the bad/fraudulent ones. Hey presto, all the "evidence" you need to convince yourself there is such a thing as that rare genuine medium, if you just keep looking long enough to find them.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 01:30 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Whereas your prophets mediums are never wrong? You just got done telling me that not all mediums are good at their jobs, and that sometimes you have to look far and wide to find a good one. And some -- you confess -- are outright frauds! Doesn't that imply that a substantial fraction of them, if not an outright majority, are not very good? Your attempt to differentiate your beliefs from those of Muslims, on the basis of the purported central authorities, is failing rather badly.



And over the course of this journey you admit you've forsaken sources you once considered authoritative. Is that really a position from which you can assert credible infallibility? Can you really say you know how to tell the good sources from the bad?
Some things are obviously false. But you can spend years listening to convincing teachings before they make such a false statement. If they do make such errors I disregard everything they say.

But I have to admit I may have incorporated teachings from fake mediums into my belief system, as I cannot remember where I got some of my ideas from.

As for my view Muhammad was a fraud, it is not easy to refute the Quran because much of it is obscure. For example it say the sun and the moon each swim in an orbit. Muslims proudly proclaim that Muhammad revealed the sun orbits the galaxy before science knew that. However there is a hadith that makes plain Muhammad was saying the sun orbits the earth. I often have this argument with Muslims on twitter.

I continue to search for truth and always will.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 01:46 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Some things are obviously false.
Obviously. I consider statements like, "The spirit world is composed of vibrating energy," to be obviously false. In order for the statement to make any sense at all, the reader has to agree to nebulous and shifting redefinitions of the key words.

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But you can spend years listening to convincing teachings before they make such a false statement.
How do you tell a convincing true statement from a convincing false statement?

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If they do make such errors I disregard everything they say.
Then Silver Birch remains fairly problematic for your claims.

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But I have to admit I may have incorporated teachings from fake mediums into my belief system, as I cannot remember where I got some of my ideas from.
In light of this, you may want to revisit your claim to be unshakably correct.

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...it is not easy to refute the Quran because much of it is obscure.
And the same can be said of what you claim. The frustration you express at the inconsistency and illogic of Islamic teachings is hardly any different from the frustration your critics experience watching you fumble through the inconsistency and logical pitfalls in your own beliefs. This is why they persist in trying to get you to see both from the same outside perspective.

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I continue to search for truth and always will.
What role do you think skepticism should play in that search?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:06 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

How do you tell a convincing true statement from a convincing false statement?
What role do you think skepticism should play in that search?
Much of what may be said is undefinable, and could be true, but sometimes people claiming to be mediums may make obvious mistakes. For example White Eagle lodge. The medium Grace Cook said in the late 1930's that there were people on Mars and Venus. This did not stop her building a purpose built temple on the proceeds. It was not until the space probes proved her wrong that I dispensed with her teachings.

I do not approach teachings with a skeptical view, I have a much disputed open mind until the teaching show up to be false.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:26 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Much of what may be said is undefinable, and could be true...
The way you're representing it, it's gobbledygook. Yes, when people make claims of fact that can be tested against observation, that is one way in which they can be wrong. And yes, if the claim is made in the 1930s and we have to wait until the 1960s or 1970s to make those observations, once might be justified in holding the belief in abeyance.

But when people make claims that are patently self-contradictory, we don't have to wait for the facts. Such statements are inherently untrue. You cling to those statements too.

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I do not approach teachings with a skeptical view...
Do you think you should, since you've been fooled more than once? Does being fooled make you stop and think about where your standards of proof are?

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I have a much disputed open mind until the teaching show up to be false.
But you don't have an open mind. You have said your faith in your beliefs is unshakable, and you wait until proof against them reaches absurd levels of overkill before you decide to relinquish them. Your critics are far more open-minded than you toward the possibility that the things you claim cannot be true.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:28 PM   #134
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But that's exactly the wrong way around to be. You should not accept any claim about the nature of reality, no matter what it is, without evidence. The null position is non belief until you are given a good reason to believe.

Let's say that Grace Cook had not said there were people on Mars and Venus but instead that they were on planets orbiting the star Proxima Centauri. Now, we haven't yet visited Proxima Centauri and therefore don't have the same data that we do about Venus or Mars. Would you still believe that she was telling the truth in this case?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:33 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But that's exactly the wrong way around to be. You should not accept any claim about the nature of reality, no matter what it is, without evidence. The null position is non belief until you are given a good reason to believe.

Let's say that Grace Cook had not said there were people on Mars and Venus but instead that they were on planets orbiting the star Proxima Centauri. Now, we haven't yet visited Proxima Centauri and therefore don't have the same data that we do about Venus or Mars. Would you still believe that she was telling the truth in this case?
Yes, I would have believed her if she said there were people on other planets in the universe. Most of her teachings were inspiring and uplifting, she had a big following. But I could not accept it after reading the early teachings about Mars and Venus.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:43 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Most of her teachings were inspiring and uplifting, she had a big following.
So did Jim Jones. Being "inspiring" is not at all the same as being right. If you were to say, "I'm more uplifted and inspired than you skeptics," that could be plausibly argued based on what you're saying. But instead when you say, "I'm right and you all are wrong," you need facts to back that up. You're telling us your beliefs come first, and then maybe later you'll check the facts.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:47 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

Do you think you should, since you've been fooled more than once? Does being fooled make you stop and think about where your standards of proof are?

But you don't have an open mind. You have said your faith in your beliefs is unshakable,
I don't say I have any actual proof, just a conviction that some things may well be true. I have a number of reasons for belief in psychic phenomena, for one thing I could feel the energy flowing through my chakras, and that was before I saw a diagram of them in a book, and recognized those locations as the places where I felt fire flowing. I can still feel some kind of electrical charge coming from my finger tips, and if I rotate my palms over each other I can feel an energy field from a couple of feet away. I used to be able to feel the presence of spirits, but that seems to have faded with age. Either that or they have left me to my own devices.

I still know for a fact that a voice told me I would win on the lottery.
I still know for a fact that a friend of mine knew I was in trouble by telepathy.
I am still quite sure that some mediums gave me genuine messages over the years.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 02:53 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't say I have any actual proof, just a conviction that some things may well be true.
Which is why it's unfair of you to assert that you must be right and your critics must be wrong. It literally doesn't matter what tingly feelings you think you had, or what you believe in your heart of hearts caused them. You literally have nothing to offer your critics that would change their minds.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 03:03 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, I would have believed her if she said there were people on other planets in the universe. Most of her teachings were inspiring and uplifting, she had a big following. But I could not accept it after reading the early teachings about Mars and Venus.
So, what if every single person you took inspiration from said something like that? Where would that leave you?


Secondly like Jay says, inspiration and uplifting are all well and good but they don't equal true. I think the stories of Hinduism are wonderful literature. I find them considerably more inspiring than the bible. I still don't think they are true.

Should I believe them?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 03:08 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
So, what if every single person you took inspiration from said something like that? Where would that leave you?


Secondly like Jay says, inspiration and uplifting are all well and good but they don't equal true. I think the stories of Hinduism are wonderful literature. I find them considerably more inspiring than the bible. I still don't think they are true.

Should I believe them?
I think the Upanishads have great truths in them, I used to read them after reading the Quran, so as to give my eyes a wash from all the bile in the Quran.

If every person I read says something wrong, I would still have the list of things I just described in my last post to believe in.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 03:19 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If every person I read says something wrong, I would still have the list of things I just described in my last post to believe in.
Okay...

Quote:
I still know for a fact that a voice told me I would win on the lottery.
This is not known to be a fact. This is something you believe.

Quote:
I still know for a fact that a friend of mine knew I was in trouble by telepathy.
This is not known to be fact. This is something you believe.

Neither of these claims has the slightest value as evidence to convince other people that the claimed event even happened, much less that your attribution of them to supernatural causes is even remotely plausible, much less true. Further, because you are honest about your mental illness, your critics parsimoniously conclude that your memory of the events is not trustworthy. The simplest explanation for them that fits all the facts and leaves very little if anything to speculation is that these are products of a distorted memory.

Quote:
I am still quite sure that some mediums gave me genuine messages over the years.
But this is cherry-picked data at best. Even if you accurately surveyed all the readings you've had over the years, you're still stuck with the problem that none of them are known to be fact. Simply asserting them over and over to your critics and asking them to accept that this proves them wrong is irrational.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 03:20 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Which is why it's unfair of you to assert that you must be right and your critics must be wrong. It literally doesn't matter what tingly feelings you think you had, or what you believe in your heart of hearts caused them. You literally have nothing to offer your critics that would change their minds.
I had thoughts on that. On reflection, not going there..

Scorp is flat out certain he is right and thus everyone else is perforce wrong.

Frankly, I am disinclined to argue the toss anymore. Suppose we all conceded and agreed that everyone is wrong, the universe is wrong, god is wrong. Where would that get any of us?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 03:21 PM   #143
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I don't think they have great truths in them, I just think they are enjoyable.

Hell, the Bible has a few bits in it that are good. That doesn't mean Christianity is true any more than Hinduism, Islam or your pick-n-mix spirituality.

As for still having the events you have stated, you have outright admitted that had the lottery win not happened you would have written this off as not being a legit spiritual experience. You are engaging in confirmation bias. That's fine, it's really hard to avoid doing, but you should not pin your worldview on such things.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 05:29 PM   #144
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The courts of the Inquisition might declare someone "impenetrable," that is, impervious to argument. Combined with other offenses, it was sufficient to condemn a person to death.

I wouldn't try to draw any very close analogy here, but consider the terrible aloneness of an individual under Inquisitorial sentence. Then try to imagine the stony isolation of the schizophrenic, for whom other people are hallucinations. Can anyone be more alone than within the chamber of madness?

I like this thread less and less.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 07:22 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was on largactil for ten years from 1969 to around 1980. The drug turned me into a zombie, and I fought my way off the drug one pill at a time, against psychiatric advice. I was then able to study and became an electronics engineer.

I still hear voices in my ears, but entirely ignore them,
Scorpion, did you hear voices during the ten years you were on largactil?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:31 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Scorpion, did you hear voices during the ten years you were on largactil?
Yes
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:36 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes
Thank you for your reply. Did you try any medications other than largactil?
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:55 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thank you for your reply. Did you try any medications other than largactil?
Yes, and I still heard voices.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 11:57 PM   #149
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The thing with voices is that if they don't make sense, or they persecute you, you just ignore them. Then they become nothing but background noise that you hardly notice.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 12:00 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, and I still heard voices.
Was 1980 the last time you were on medication? As I have said, mental health care has come a long way in the last forty years.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 12:14 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Was 1980 the last time you were on medication? As I have said, mental health care has come a long way in the last forty years.
I didn't really want to admit this, but I am currently on 15 mg of abilify a day. That's just one small tablet a day.
I went on it a few years ago to calm my nerves so that I could stop drinking, which was killing me. I intended to stop the drugs once I was free of drink.
But last year I tried to stop the drug after being sober for 5 years, but I found my brain has become conditioned to abilify and the withdrawl symptoms were very unpleasant. After a month I had to go back on the drug.
I could try stopping the drug very slowly, one pill at a time , but there is another issue. I have breathing allergies in the summer and abilify completely cures this problem. So if I stop the drug I will have to take another drug to stop the allergies, and they are not as effective as abilify.
Since I have had no side effects from abilify I have decided to keep taking it for now. But I still hear voices.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 12:57 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I didn't really want to admit this, but I am currently on 15 mg of abilify a day. That's just one small tablet a day.
I went on it a few years ago to calm my nerves so that I could stop drinking, which was killing me. I intended to stop the drugs once I was free of drink.
But last year I tried to stop the drug after being sober for 5 years, but I found my brain has become conditioned to abilify and the withdrawl symptoms were very unpleasant. After a month I had to go back on the drug.
I could try stopping the drug very slowly, one pill at a time , but there is another issue. I have breathing allergies in the summer and abilify completely cures this problem. So if I stop the drug I will have to take another drug to stop the allergies, and they are not as effective as abilify.
Since I have had no side effects from abilify I have decided to keep taking it for now. But I still hear voices.
Well colour me surprised! This is excellent news. Aripiprazole was found in a 2013 review to be marginally more effective at controlling psychotic symptoms than chlorpromazine, and with better tolerability. But yes, it is strongly recommended to discontinue use gradually. I would say that this is at least contributing to your continued good health. You are hearing voices, but you say that you are able to easily ignore them. I suggest this might not be so easy without the continued medication.

Again. I am not a mental health professional. I'm just a guy who happens to know some stuff, and has access to Wikipedia. Don't take my advice over that of a properly trained mental health professional.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:01 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well colour me surprised! This is excellent news. Aripiprazole was found in a 2013 review to be marginally more effective at controlling psychotic symptoms than chlorpromazine, and with better tolerability. But yes, it is strongly recommended to discontinue use gradually. I would say that this is at least contributing to your continued good health. You are hearing voices, but you say that you are able to easily ignore them. I suggest this might not be so easy without the continued medication.

Again. I am not a mental health professional. I'm just a guy who happens to know some stuff, and has access to Wikipedia. Don't take my advice over that of a properly trained mental health professional.
Thanks, but I was off drugs for nearly thirty years, and the voices were just the same as now. The problem was I was self medicating with alcohol which got completely out of hand.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:05 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Thanks, but I was off drugs for nearly thirty years, and the voices were just the same as now. The problem was I was self medicating with alcohol which got completely out of hand.
I'm glad that you were able to stop doing that. It isn't easy. Trust me, I know.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:11 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm glad that you were able to stop doing that. It isn't easy. Trust me, I know.
Thanks. I feel that abilify has reduced my sensitivity in a number of ways, like I don't feel emotion, and I no longer feel the presence of spirits. Who I am quite sure used to come and comfort me.

This is why I wanted to stop the abilify, it dampens down my brain.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:16 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Thanks. I feel that abilify has reduced my sensitivity in a number of ways, like I don't feel emotion, and I no longer feel the presence of spirits. Who I am quite sure used to come and comfort me.

This is why I wanted to stop the abilify, it dampens down my brain.
From our point of view, we would say that it dampens down your symptoms.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:33 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
From our point of view, we would say that it dampens down your symptoms.
Yea ! but what if I am right, and there is a spirit world? The brain has its limitations and chemicals affect its working. But some people may be able to feel spirits in their nervous system. In fact it is called clairsentience, as distinct from clairvoyance (seeing spirits) and clairaudience (hearing spirits).

I would say I could feel spirits from childhood, but I lost control of it in adolescence, with all the chemical changes, and the onset of libido.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 01:45 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea ! but what if I am right, and there is a spirit world? The brain has its limitations and chemicals affect its working. But some people may be able to feel spirits in their nervous system. In fact it is called clairsentience, as distinct from clairvoyance (seeing spirits) and clairaudience (hearing spirits).
What if you're not right? What if the entire universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure? We can't waste time on what-if scenarios. The only things that really matter are those that can be measured. If you want to speculate on what may be, formulate a clear hypothesis and test it.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 03:58 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea ! but what if I am right, and there is a spirit world?
Then you will be managing your condition, and the spirit world will still be there. You have nothing to lose by continuing with your medication.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 04:02 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
"That blokes full of spiritual intestinal wank monkeys"

"Stay away, don't make eye contact, he might try to shake hands!"
Oh god, what have I done?
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