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Old 23rd June 2021, 04:39 AM   #161
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I don't think they have great truths in them, I just think they are enjoyable.

Hell, the Bible has a few bits in it that are good. That doesn't mean Christianity is true any more than Hinduism, Islam or your pick-n-mix spirituality.

As for still having the events you have stated, you have outright admitted that had the lottery win not happened you would have written this off as not being a legit spiritual experience. You are engaging in confirmation bias. That's fine, it's really hard to avoid doing, but you should not pin your worldview on such things.
Any comment Scorpion?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 06:35 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Any comment Scorpion?
I think the Upanishads are truly inspired, as is some of the bible.

I still maintain that a female voice spoke to me twice before I won the lottery
once to tell me help was coming and once to tell me I won. I never heard that voice before or since, and as far as I am concerned it was a genuine psychic event.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 06:46 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think the Upanishads are truly inspired, as is some of the bible.
"Inspired" is a loaded word. Do you mean they were literally inspired by some element of the supernatural? I think Mozart's Symphony no. 41 K.551 is inspired (or at least inspiring), but I don't think any spirit or deity had anything to do with it.

Quote:
I still maintain that a female voice spoke to me twice before I won the lottery once to tell me help was coming and once to tell me I won. I never heard that voice before or since, and as far as I am concerned it was a genuine psychic event.
Yes, you hang your hat on this claim on practically every page. The problem with it as evidence is that its value extends literally only as far as you're concerned. As far as the rest of us are concerned, there's a far more parsimonious explanation that doesn't require us to invent a full-fledged alternate reality. And the point about confirmation bias cannot simply be ignored.

Joseph Smith claimed he talked to God and Jesus face-to-face. What makes your claim more credible than his?

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Old 23rd June 2021, 06:54 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think the Upanishads are truly inspired, as is some of the bible.
Define "inspired" and then explain why you think so.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I still maintain that a female voice spoke to me twice before I won the lottery
once to tell me help was coming and once to tell me I won. I never heard that voice before or since, and as far as I am concerned it was a genuine psychic event.
I absolutely believe that an event happened and that you honestly believe that your recollection of it is correct. I'm even willing to stipulate for the sake of argument that your recollection is indeed correct, and that you heard a female voice and the voice said that you would win the lottery.

That doesn't make it a psychic event. There are so many possible mundane explanations for this event without needing to invent psychic phenomena that are just so much more plausible.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 06:58 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
"Inspired" is a loaded word. Do you mean they were literally inspired by some element of the supernatural? I think Mozart's Symphony no. 41 K.551 is inspired (or at least inspiring), but I don't think any spirit or deity had anything to do with it.



Yes, you hang your hat on this claim on practically every page. The problem with it as evidence is that its value extends literally only as far as you're concerned. As far as the rest of us are concerned, there's a far more parsimonious explanation that doesn't require us to invent a full-fledged alternate reality. And the point about confirmation bias cannot simply be ignored.

Joseph Smith claimed he talked to God and Jesus face-to-face. What makes your claim more credible than his?
As far as I am concerned the spirit world does inspire people from behind the scenes. Often unknown by the recipient the spirit world plants ideas into peoples heads using telepathy. They are allowed to influence us in this way, for the betterment of mankind.

My claims may be no more credible that Joseph Smith, but in my view he was clearly lying, and I truly believe what I am saying.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:04 AM   #166
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That you truly believe your ideas makes no difference to how true they actually are.

What about the Heavens Gate cultists? They truly believed their personal religion. Does that make it more, or less true?

What about the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witness organisation? They seem to truly believe they are right, does that lend any credence to their beliefs?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:10 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Define "inspired" and then explain why you think so.
Inspired is a divine or spiritual influence.
I just outlined my belief that the spirit world inspire us from behind the scenes, often without our knowledge. I think an example is Churchills war speeches. He used to go into a sort of trance when composing them.

I was told the spirit world inspired at least one of my paintings, and I used to see pictures in my minds eye. Sometimes I still do, in fact when I close my eyes I sometimes see a stream of pictures about a foot in front of my eyes. When I turn my head the pictures stay in the same place. but since I gave up painting there is no point in them giving me visions.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:11 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As far as I am concerned the spirit world does inspire people from behind the scenes.
Then it has a measurable effect on our world.

Quote:
Often unknown by the recipient the spirit world plants ideas into peoples heads using telepathy.
By what physical mechanism?

Quote:
My claims may be no more credible that Joseph Smith, but in my view he was clearly lying, and I truly believe what I am saying.
You have no way of knowing whether Smith actually believed his own claims. Since he was murdered for them, I'd say his commitment might have been pretty substantial. But if you're willing to concede that you can't raise your credibility any higher than that of a person you're sure is lying, then that should be a lesson to you.

From someone else's point of view, you both may be deluded or you both may be lying. The problem you have convincing others is that you're not able to appreciate your claims from any point of view other than your own. This makes you unworthy to pass judgment on whether others are right or wrong, or whether they have justifiable reasons for what they believe. This is what people here are complaining about. They don't care whether you believe in a spirit world. They care whether you're inappropriately judgmental.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:12 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
That you truly believe your ideas makes no difference to how true they actually are.

What about the Heavens Gate cultists? They truly believed their personal religion. Does that make it more, or less true?

What about the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witness organisation? They seem to truly believe they are right, does that lend any credence to their beliefs?
No and I think all religions are bound to fail because the theologies are an attempt by the finite human mind to get a handle on the infinite divine mind, and that can never happen.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:13 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think an example is Churchills war speeches. He used to go into a sort of trance when composing them.
Evidence for this claim, please?

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I was told the spirit world inspired at least one of my paintings, and I used to see pictures in my minds eye.
So does literally every artist. In Van Gogh's case, the digitalis probably helped a little.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:15 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No and I think all religions are bound to fail because the theologies are an attempt by the finite human mind to get a handle on the infinite divine mind, and that can never happen.
But all these people -- including you -- claim to have special insight into the "divine mind." If all religious are at best approximations to the truth, what makes you so sure you're right and that everyone else is wrong? You can't even manage a consistent and coherent narrative. Isn't that evidence that your finite mind is making a mistake?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:16 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Then it has a measurable effect on our world.

By what physical mechanism?
By though power alone, mind to mind using telepathy. I said in the consciousness thread that I believe the only thing in this universe that is not part of it is consciousness itself.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:17 AM   #173
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Let's remember that the great prophet Smith, when cornered in debate, would whip off his coat and say, "Welp, I dunno 'bout all o' that, but I kin throw ye two times in three at wrasslin'!" And he usually could, but the learned gents debating him would whip off their coats nonetheless and try a tussle because brother Joseph was entertaining and fun. I think you could call his debating strategy inspired. It served him well, anyway, and his followers enjoyed having him around.

Truth be damned. It's charisma that rings the cash register.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:18 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Evidence for this claim, please?
I can't remember where I read that Churchill used to go into a kind of trance when writing his speeches. I think it was a TV documentary.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:22 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Inspired is a divine or spiritual influence.
I just outlined my belief that the spirit world inspire us from behind the scenes, often without our knowledge.
I know you believe that, but why should I believe that?
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think an example is Churchills war speeches. He used to go into a sort of trance when composing them.
I can find no source for this claim.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was told the spirit world inspired at least one of my paintings, and I used to see pictures in my minds eye. Sometimes I still do, in fact when I close my eyes I sometimes see a stream of pictures about a foot in front of my eyes. When I turn my head the pictures stay in the same place. but since I gave up painting there is no point in them giving me visions.
I'm a dreadful artist and I don't believe in spirits, but on the odd occasion where I want to draw, I get a picture in my mind's eye too.

In fact I get pictures frequently when I close my eyes. All sorts of things.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:23 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Inspired is a divine or spiritual influence.
I just outlined my belief that the spirit world inspire us from behind the scenes, often without our knowledge. I think an example is Churchills war speeches. He used to go into a sort of trance when composing them.

I was told the spirit world inspired at least one of my paintings, and I used to see pictures in my minds eye. Sometimes I still do, in fact when I close my eyes I sometimes see a stream of pictures about a foot in front of my eyes. When I turn my head the pictures stay in the same place. but since I gave up painting there is no point in them giving me visions.
Thought that was against the rules?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:23 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
By though power alone, mind to mind using telepathy.
That's not a description of a physical mechanism; it's just more meaningless gobbledygook. Try again.

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I said in the consciousness thread that I believe the only thing in this universe that is not part of it is consciousness itself.
Except that it must be, if that's the operative element in inspiring things to happen in the real world. More gobbledygook. I pointed out in that thread that your statement manages to commit a logical inconsistency within the confines of a single sentence. You didn't answer.

Words have meanings, Scorpion. You can't just string together a bunch of apparently profound statements and convince others that it means something, or that if they don't understand it then they aren't as clever as you.

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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:24 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't remember where I read that Churchill used to go into a kind of trance when writing his speeches. I think it was a TV documentary.
So no evidence for the statement, then. Another unsupported claim. Want to revisit that claim about you being right and everyone else being wrong?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:24 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But all these people -- including you -- claim to have special insight into the "divine mind." If all religious are at best approximations to the truth, what makes you so sure you're right and that everyone else is wrong? You can't even manage a consistent and coherent narrative. Isn't that evidence that your finite mind is making a mistake?
My finite mind is as limited as everyone else's. I cannot get a handle on God either. But I had feelings from an early age, and those feelings led me to walk out of a bible class because everyone there seemed to believe in hellfire, and I felt sure in my heart that God would not do that to anyone.
I then went on a long search which led me to spiritualism, and they too do not believe in hellfire or Satan.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:28 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thought that was against the rules?
No, they have a certain amount of leeway to try and inspire us. But they are not allowed to directly interfere in our affairs. It would interfere with our karma.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:28 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My finite mind is as limited as everyone else's. I cannot get a handle on God either. But I had feelings from an early age, and those feelings led me to walk out of a bible class because everyone there seemed to believe in hellfire, and I felt sure in my heart that God would not do that to anyone. I then went on a long search which led me to spiritualism, and they too do not believe in hellfire or Satan.
This is just equivocation. You're telling us that you'e just as limited as we are, but "somehow" you're not.

You didn't answer the question. You have clearly made mistakes regarding your belief, and you are clearly continuing to make them. How should we evaluate those obvious errors in light of your claim to be right while everyone else is wrong? Error is evidence of error.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:29 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No, they have a certain amount of leeway to try and inspire us. But they are not allowed to directly interfere in our affairs. It would interfere with our karma.
How is inspiration not an attempt to interfere?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:30 AM   #183
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Ok, I have another question for you Scorpion.

You say that the Upanishads and the Bible are both inspired by the spirits, right? That they both reveal in their own way an element of truth about the world?

Then why are they so different, and so obviously mutually contradictory? Why are all world religions a-ok by the spirits when they are so vastly different?

What about long dead religions like the religion of the Aztecs, or the original form of Asatru? What about the ancient Celtic religions, or the Hellenistic/Roman pantheons?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:34 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How is inspiration not an attempt to interfere?
If they told us what to do directly that would be interfering. But planting ideas into peoples minds unknown to them, is trying to influence events without taking our free will.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:37 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Ok, I have another question for you Scorpion.

You say that the Upanishads and the Bible are both inspired by the spirits, right? That they both reveal in their own way an element of truth about the world?

Then why are they so different, and so obviously mutually contradictory? Why are all world religions a-ok by the spirits when they are so vastly different?

What about long dead religions like the religion of the Aztecs, or the original form of Asatru? What about the ancient Celtic religions, or the Hellenistic/Roman pantheons?
I said some of the bible is inspired, not all of it, and much of religion is made up by humans.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:38 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
This is just equivocation. You're telling us that you'e just as limited as we are, but "somehow" you're not.

You didn't answer the question. You have clearly made mistakes regarding your belief, and you are clearly continuing to make them. How should we evaluate those obvious errors in light of your claim to be right while everyone else is wrong? Error is evidence of error.
Yea, I may be wrong about everything. But I don't think so.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:38 AM   #187
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Doesn't answer the question.

Let me change tack for a minute then. Which bits are inspired, and how can you tell?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:39 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How is inspiration not an attempt to interfere?
Better example - how is giving someone the right lottery numbers not interference!
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:49 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If they told us what to do directly that would be interfering. But planting ideas into peoples minds unknown to them, is trying to influence events without taking our free will.
Below is not "planting ideas". Everything hilited was interference. Especially when they guided your hand! Guiding your hand is not free will.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Ok! explain this. I was told by a voice in my head that I would win money on the lottery in 1998. Earlier in the week I was worrying about not having enough money to buy christmas presents, and about not being able to buy a decent computer. At that moment a female voice spoke in my head, and said " help is coming from an unexpected source". That is all it said and I had never heard that voice before.
Then later in the week I was picking the lottery numbers and I felt as if there was a presence with me that was guiding my hand to pick the numbers.
Then came the saturday draws and I picked up the ticket one hour before the draw and thought to myself. Maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then I though no, and threw it down. At that moment the s female voice in my head said " You won".
The voice had never spoken to me before and has never spoken to me since, but I did get a five number win which was enough money to pay my credit card and buy a good computer.
As far as I am concerned this is subjective personal experience I have had of telepathy from the spirit world, and the odds against it being a hallucination must be astronomical. Because I only ever heard that voice twice in my life and it told me I would win and I did.
The odds against winning are high enough so what are the odds a voice would tell you you won an hour before the draw on the only occasion that you did win?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:57 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Better example - how is giving someone the right lottery numbers not interference!
It was a subtle action that did not make much difference in the scheme of things. But it set me on a course that I would not have been on without a computer. I got my first internet ready computer in 1998 after my win, and I joined various forums. The main one was a forum called itshappening.com and from 2001 I argued with fanatical Muslims there. The owner of the site hacked several Muslim extremist sites and directed them to his site, and there was a lot of activity there. I was part of that story and received death threats from Muslims.
One was a notorious poster named Daleel Almojahid. . he threated to let off a nuclear suitcase bomb in New York. and he threatened to plunge a sword in my heart.
Another Muslim said that after reading my criticism of the Quran he gave up being a Muslim.
So you see by a small act that harmed no one, giving me enough money to get a computer, the spirit world made a small difference. They did not give me a big win because that would have been bad karma.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:57 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea, I may be wrong about everything. But I don't think so.
Well I am glad that you are at least at the point where you admit that it is possible that your various ideas may be quite incorrect.

At least that is a step in the right direction.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:59 AM   #192
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Remember he wasn't actually given the numbers, he had a premonition (via one of his voices) of a win and a feeling of being guided, and then won a fairly small amount. Sheer luck, and the fact that we only remember premonitions that come true and forget the ones that don't, is all the explanation that's required, even if his memory of the sequence of events is 100% accurate.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 07:59 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Oh god, what have I done?
Improved the thread immeasurably?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:01 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Doesn't answer the question.

Let me change tack for a minute then. Which bits are inspired, and how can you tell?
I am not a bible scholar. I know the Quran better than the bible, as I have read it all through three times. I have not done that with the bible.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:08 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It was a subtle action that did not make much difference in the scheme of things.
Subtle action?!

This spirit supposedly guided your hand to the winning numbers. And told you ahead of time that you won. And told you that help would be coming.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:14 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Subtle action?!

This spirit supposedly guided your hand to the winning numbers. And told you ahead of time that you won. And told you that help would be coming.
Yes, well it was a small action, but it had a big effect on me. If they have given me six numbers that would have been real interference, and it would have meant I took a lot of money from someone else. But I only got enough money to buy a computer, and that hardly made any difference to any other winners.

Naturally I tried to get them to give me six numbers after that event. But I knew in my heart they never would, because it would have been bad karma.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:15 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It was a subtle action that did not make much difference in the scheme of things. But it set me on a course that I would not have been on without a computer. I got my first internet ready computer in 1998 after my win, and I joined various forums. The main one was a forum called itshappening.com and from 2001 I argued with fanatical Muslims there. The owner of the site hacked several Muslim extremist sites and directed them to his site, and there was a lot of activity there. I was part of that story and received death threats from Muslims.
One was a notorious poster named Daleel Almojahid. . he threated to let off a nuclear suitcase bomb in New York. and he threatened to plunge a sword in my heart.
Another Muslim said that after reading my criticism of the Quran he gave up being a Muslim.
So you see by a small act that harmed no one, giving me enough money to get a computer, the spirit world made a small difference. They did not give me a big win because that would have been bad karma.
But they gave you enough of a win so that you could buy a computer and blunder in to an islamic extremist nutbar site? Because they are so filled with love, right?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:17 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If they told us what to do directly that would be interfering. But planting ideas into peoples minds unknown to them, is trying to influence events without taking our free will.
Nonsense. If you claim hypothetically that Mozart was inspired to write the "Jupiter" symphony, then what would have happened if no such inspiration arose? Would he have written it anyway? If that's the case, then inspiration is impotent. If he only wrote it because he was inspired to do it, then that undercuts his free will.

You're simply falling into the same pitfall over and over again that countless theologians before you have wrestled with.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:18 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But they gave you enough of a win so that you could buy a computer and blunder in to an islamic extremist nutbar site? Because they are so filled with love, right?
The spirit world say that religious dogma in the bible is outdated, and that must go double for the Quran. These false doctrines need to be broken down so that greater spiritual truths can replace them.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 08:20 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yea, I may be wrong about everything. But I don't think so.
We know you don't think so. But you have literally no rational means of convincing anyone else of that. A more conscientious person would realize that state of affairs and act accordingly. You don't act accordingly; you insist to others that you must be right and you insist to those same others that they must be wrong. How is your behavior in that respect anything other than arrogant and rude?
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