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Old 23rd June 2021, 11:34 AM   #281
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That does not address the contradiction I illustrated. Try again.
I don't see the contradiction.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 11:35 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't see the contradiction.
Denial is not an answer. You said one thing and then minutes later said exactly the opposite. Fix it
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Old 23rd June 2021, 11:40 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Someone who won a share of £20 million did not need my money to pay rent, they could buy houses.
Here's the issue.

What you've laid out previously regarding suffering creates a circumstance that you can't deviate from.

That circumstance is that all suffering caused by any incarnation is foreseen by the AoK and is foreseen prior to a soul being put into that incarnation. How else would an AoK know what incarnations will suffer the determined amount to bring karmic balance.

So your soul and another soul are standing in front of an AoK in the spirit plane. The Aok determines that the other soul needs to suffer X amount to bring it karmic balance. It looks at all the incarnations and finds one that will give the soul the X amount of suffering needed. Part of that X amount of suffering is getting kicked out of their dwelling because they couldn't pay their rent in a certain month. So they see the incarnation playing the lottery, but instead give the numbers to another incarnation. They then put YOUR soul into that incarnation.

According to you, all needed suffering caused by an incarnation is foreseen and then filled with a soul. NO free will when it comes to that.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 11:44 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I doubt the angels of karma run around checking the needs of millions of people who play the lottery every week to see if they need the money.
In any case the person would have to be psychically susceptible to the spiritual influence for the said angels to be able to help them pick the numbers.
Read my post above. You've created a belief system were suffering is needed for souls to advance. The AoK determine that amount. In order for the soul to get that determined amount of suffering, the AoK need to be able to see which incarnation will give it that amount of suffering. Some of that suffering will be at the hand of another incarnation/soul which was foreseen by the AoK which is then filled with a soul.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 11:45 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I said I am not alone on my view of Dickens. It is not just my opinion that he is a master story teller. As for other authors I don't read much fiction. But I highly rate Herman Hesse.

I cannot say which authors are inspired.
This does not address my question Scorpion.

How can you tell if a work is inspired? Any work. Any one at all. How can you tell? There must be some objective criteria where you can say "ah, this is inspired" to one piece and confidently state that another piece is not.

Just because lots of people agree a work is good that does not mean it is inspired, unless you want to claim that all work that is agreed by a majority to be of high quality is inspired.

What if we lived in an alternate universe where Dickens was not widely beloved and instead was thought to be a hack? His works were identical in every way to how they are in this universe but popular opinion was against him. Would you still say he was inspired?
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Old 24th June 2021, 01:11 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But they gave you enough of a win so that you could buy a computer and blunder in to an islamic extremist nutbar site? Because they are so filled with love, right?
He seems to have forgotten that it wasn't just to buy a computer....
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Old 24th June 2021, 01:14 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I doubt the angels of karma run around checking the needs of millions of people who play the lottery every week to see if they need the money.
In any case the person would have to be psychically susceptible to the spiritual influence for the said angels to be able to help them pick the numbers.
But they do run-around keeping track of which 3-year old child is going to be kidnapped, raped multiple times, and beheaded every week?
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Old 24th June 2021, 04:27 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I doubt the angels of karma run around checking the needs of millions of people who play the lottery every week to see if they need the money.
And there in lies the problem Scorpion.

Your belief system states that the AoK, prior to a soul leaving the spiritual plane an being placed in an incarnation, determine how much a soul needs to suffer to bring it karmic balance.

What if not having money was part of the suffering an incarnation was to experience as an AoK had foreseen? Now you're saying their are rogue angels that can play by their own rules and go against what the AoK had determined to bring karmic balance?

What if your not being able to have a computer and afford Christmas presents was a tiny part of your suffering foreseen by an AoK? Not only did a rogue angel go against God's "no interference" rule, but went against an AoK and it's decision.
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Old 24th June 2021, 08:12 AM   #289
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What kind of karmic adjustment for deliberately going out of your way to aggravate others deserves a soul?
No matter it's a Muslim or any other victim?
It remains a chosen act of clearly a bad nature. Surely this won't earn one honors on the next round of the Karma-go-round.

What if the next life the AoK decide it's fitting to be reborn a female to a poor family in Jihadistan?

This is a problem to everyone who fights any battle of good vs evil in your dogma Scorpion. The safest route to a complete recycle to perfection is doing little to oppose anyone while doing some good for all.
Much like the ideal Ghandi type Hindu is encouraged.

You have created a strange beast my friend.
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Old 24th June 2021, 08:24 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You do not have to be an expert to recognize the virtue of the Upanishads.


I have read the teachings of the one true god FSM, Within this tome, it says you are 100% wrong.
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Old 24th June 2021, 09:18 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Here's the issue.

What you've laid out previously regarding suffering creates a circumstance that you can't deviate from.

That circumstance is that all suffering caused by any incarnation is foreseen by the AoK and is foreseen prior to a soul being put into that incarnation. How else would an AoK know what incarnations will suffer the determined amount to bring karmic balance.

So your soul and another soul are standing in front of an AoK in the spirit plane. The Aok determines that the other soul needs to suffer X amount to bring it karmic balance. It looks at all the incarnations and finds one that will give the soul the X amount of suffering needed. Part of that X amount of suffering is getting kicked out of their dwelling because they couldn't pay their rent in a certain month. So they see the incarnation playing the lottery, but instead give the numbers to another incarnation. They then put YOUR soul into that incarnation.

According to you, all needed suffering caused by an incarnation is foreseen and then filled with a soul. NO free will when it comes to that.
I do not believe the angels of karma spend their time monitoring all the people playing the lottery. In any case it would be difficult to give anyone the numbers unless the person could be reached by telepathy.
I do not think the angels can control the small details of our daily lives. They paint with a broader brush. If there are injustices in our lives they are compensated for in future lives.
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Old 24th June 2021, 09:44 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
This does not address my question Scorpion.

How can you tell if a work is inspired? Any work. Any one at all. How can you tell? There must be some objective criteria where you can say "ah, this is inspired" to one piece and confidently state that another piece is not.

Just because lots of people agree a work is good that does not mean it is inspired, unless you want to claim that all work that is agreed by a majority to be of high quality is inspired.

What if we lived in an alternate universe where Dickens was not widely beloved and instead was thought to be a hack? His works were identical in every way to how they are in this universe but popular opinion was against him. Would you still say he was inspired?
Please respond Scorpion.
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Old 24th June 2021, 09:46 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not think the angels can control the small details of our daily lives. They paint with a broader brush. If there are injustices in our lives they are compensated for in future lives.
Explain how your miniscule lottery prize qualified as a broad-strokes move. Why wasn't your lack of a computer and Christmas presents slated as something to be compensated for later?
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:02 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not believe the angels of karma spend their time monitoring all the people playing the lottery.
But you do believe they would interfere with your lottery numbers. Not all of the countless poor people who bought tickets and won nothing. All those people who won nothing, you had in effect, your hand in their wallet. Is it a matter of pride for that, in an inversion of the Robin Hood myth, that you stole from the poor to give to yourself? Is there a karmic debt for that?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In any case it would be difficult to give anyone the numbers unless the person could be reached by telepathy.
The AoK cannot be so powerless. Else they would be useless. Indeed, you are claiming that they are absolutely not powerless at all. You cannot have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not think the angels can control the small details of our daily lives. They paint with a broader brush.
You are exactly claiming that they control the small details of your life. Do not pretend you are not making that claim. Sure, you could go with flat out lies, but that would change the whole conversation. That would be claiming that you in particular are "special".

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If there are injustices in our lives they are compensated for in future lives.
And that would be immoral.
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:23 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
How can you tell if a work is inspired? Any work. Any one at all. How can you tell? There must be some objective criteria where you can say "ah, this is inspired" to one piece and confidently state that another piece is not.
Nope, I can only suspect some work is inspired by its quality.


Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Just because lots of people agree a work is good that does not mean it is inspired, unless you want to claim that all work that is agreed by a majority to be of high quality is inspired.
I believe a lot of people are inspired without knowing it. Because the spirit world plants ideas in their heads using telepathy, and they think it is their own thoughts

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
What if we lived in an alternate universe where Dickens was not widely beloved and instead was thought to be a hack? His works were identical in every way to how they are in this universe but popular opinion was against him. Would you still say he was inspired?
No
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:26 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Explain how your miniscule lottery prize qualified as a broad-strokes move. Why wasn't your lack of a computer and Christmas presents slated as something to be compensated for later?
I believe I received an unusual , special dispensation. Possibly to compensate me for having my career ruined by the police. I always looked after myself and earned my own living until the police interfered with my job and drove me to go on sick benefits.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 24th June 2021 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:32 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe I received an unusual, special dispensation.
So, special pleading.

Quote:
Possibly to compensate me for having my career ruined by the police.
No, that should be compensated for later. We cite examples of people who have had it far worse than you in their mortal lives, and you say they have to wait to be compensated. But poor, poor Scorpion who has schizophrenia and is merely treated as someone who has schizophrenia gets a special dispensation because everything is so unfair.

Quote:
I always looked after myself and earned my own living until the police interfered with my job and drove me to go on the sick benefits.
But you've made it plain that one's meritorious behavior in this life doesn't mean they won't be somehow ruined if the "angels" decide that's what has to happen.
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:34 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Nope, I can only suspect some work is inspired by its quality.
There can't be any legitimately good artists? If their work is good, then it has to be some divine intervention?

Quote:
I believe a lot of people are inspired without knowing it. Because the spirit world plants ideas in their heads using telepathy, and they think it is their own thoughts.
We know what thoughts are made of. I asked you to describe the physical mechanism by which this occurs, and you gave me a load of incoherent gobbledygook. Care to try again?
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:47 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
There can't be any legitimately good artists? If their work is good, then it has to be some divine intervention?
Not at all, but I feel some artists, musicians, etc. are inspired.

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
We know what thoughts are made of. I asked you to describe the physical mechanism by which this occurs, and you gave me a load of incoherent gobbledygook. Care to try again?
I do not believe we know what thoughts are made of.
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:49 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not at all, but I feel some artists, musicians, etc. are inspired.
Then quality is not an accurate determiner of inspiration.

Quote:
I do not believe we know what thoughts are made of.
That does not stop it from being scientifically true. Care to explain by what physical mechanism telepathy operates and creates thoughts?
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Old 24th June 2021, 10:56 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post



That does not stop it from being scientifically true. Care to explain by what physical mechanism telepathy operates and creates thoughts?
I do not believe thoughts are physical, and therefore telepathy is a metaphysical communication of mind to mind.
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Old 24th June 2021, 11:01 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not believe thoughts are physical, and therefore telepathy is a metaphysical communication of mind to mind.
Are the rapists and murderers of a 3 year old child inspired by the karma angels?
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Old 24th June 2021, 11:35 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So, special pleading.
Sure. All those poor folks who bought those losing tickets clearly deserved nothing. Scorpion deserved everything. And stole their money. And continues to deserve everything. WTF is that nonsense?

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, that should be compensated for later. We cite examples of people who have had it far worse than you in their mortal lives, and you say they have to wait to be compensated. But poor, poor Scorpion who has schizophrenia and is merely treated as someone who has schizophrenia gets a special dispensation because everything is so unfair.
Those are the useless idiots They deserve whatever evil they get. Karma.

Scorpion equally deserves whatever he gets out of Mordor why not. He delivers it.

Looks at mordor? Yep. Scorpion deserves whatever he gets out of Mordor.


Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But you've made it plain that one's meritorious behavior in this life doesn't mean they won't be somehow ruined if the "angels" decide that's what has to happen.
Yup. In Scorpions mad idea, one gets nothing. Ever.
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Old 24th June 2021, 11:53 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not believe thoughts are physical, and therefore telepathy is a metaphysical communication of mind to mind.
Your disbelief in neuroscience does not stop it from being a thing that exists.
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Old 24th June 2021, 12:02 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Your disbelief in neuroscience does not stop it from being a thing that exists.
Odd, no. As far as anyone can tell, conciousness is an emergent property of a brain. Scorpion claims it is some other thing. And he fails to identify whatever it might be that he claims it is.
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Old 24th June 2021, 12:40 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Nope, I can only suspect some work is inspired by its quality.
So you could be wrong about Dickens being inspired? Or the Upanishads?


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe a lot of people are inspired without knowing it. Because the spirit world plants ideas in their heads using telepathy, and they think it is their own thoughts
Why would they do this?

Seriously, why? Why bother?


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No
So, if the majority thought his work was dreck, even if you still adored it, that would indicate that he isn't inspired? What if the vast majority of the world loves a work but you hate it?
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Old 24th June 2021, 12:41 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not believe thoughts are physical, and therefore telepathy is a metaphysical communication of mind to mind.
You would be wrong.
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Old 25th June 2021, 04:11 AM   #308
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I find it absolutely fascinating how believers like Scorpion can freely invent aspects and actions of their deities, and present them as facts that they believe themselves.

We are told that angels do this, and do that, and their do it this reason, or that reason. sometimes they work with the broad brush, and sometimes they go into little details.

Obviously, Scorpion has never had this discussion with an angel: he just knows what he wants to believe, and then he invents everything around this belief so that it seems to make sense.

OK, he frequents séances where fraudsters claim to have messages directly from the spiritual beings, and the fraudsters reinforce his belief by telling him exactly what he wants to hear. If he should ever ask about his lottery win, they will never tell him "What lottery win? Sorry we were busy elsewhere with the broad brush that day: Your lottery win that day must have been ordinary luck".

And his beliefs have an impeccable safe-guard. There are two rules: 1) everything is always for the best. 2) If something is not good, rule 1) is automatically to be applied!

If a child is molested, it is for the best in the end!

I have heard a preacher say something similar at the funeral of a toddler: "People may thing it is terrible when a child dies at this age, but in reality it shows how much God loves children. This child has been spared a miserable life in sin on Earth, and has gone straight up to see the face of God. There is nothing more beautiful to confirm our faith. Amen"
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Old 25th June 2021, 04:14 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not believe thoughts are physical, and therefore telepathy is a metaphysical communication of mind to mind.
Nevertheless, brains are physical, and there is nothing in brains that is different from all other physical objects, and certainly nothing that can explain why brains are able to interacts with metaphysical communication, when nothing else in the world can.
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Old 25th June 2021, 04:44 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I have heard a preacher say something similar at the funeral of a toddler: "People may thing it is terrible when a child dies at this age, but in reality it shows how much God loves children. This child has been spared a miserable life in sin on Earth, and has gone straight up to see the face of God. There is nothing more beautiful to confirm our faith. Amen"
There was a ghastly case in the US a few years ago where a woman murdered her children in order to ensure they went to heaven, as the longer they lived the more likely they were to sin and end up in hell. She, of course, would go to hell for doing it, but she considered that a small price to pay to ensure her children's salvation.

The worst part of it, of course, is that it actually made perfect sense. Accept the (unevidenced and untestable) premise, and every parent should do the same if they truly love their children.

This is why unevidenced and untestable premises are a bad thing, Scorpion. Yours, as I've already pointed out, can be used to justify the lucky ignoring the plight of the unlucky, as both are the presumed result of imagined good or bad behaviour in imagined previous lives.
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Old 25th June 2021, 05:01 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There was a ghastly case in the US a few years ago where a woman murdered her children in order to ensure they went to heaven, as the longer they lived the more likely they were to sin and end up in hell. She, of course, would go to hell for doing it, but she considered that a small price to pay to ensure her children's salvation.

The worst part of it, of course, is that it actually made perfect sense. Accept the (unevidenced and untestable) premise, and every parent should do the same if they truly love their children.

This is why unevidenced and untestable premises are a bad thing, Scorpion. Yours, as I've already pointed out, can be used to justify the lucky ignoring the plight of the unlucky, as both are the presumed result of imagined good or bad behaviour in imagined previous lives.
Andrea Yates (Wikipedia):

Quote:
While in prison, Yates stated that she had considered killing the children for two years, adding that they thought she was not a good mother and claiming that her sons were developing improperly. She told her jail psychiatrist: "It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell."
The usual defense against her as an example of the way religious premises can lead to extreme results is that she had no business making god's decisions. But it doesn't logically excuse a bad premise to worry about who's acting on it- if there's a god who makes decisions like that for children, he's no better than the premise.
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Last edited by turingtest; 25th June 2021 at 05:31 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 25th June 2021, 05:20 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe I received an unusual , special dispensation. Possibly to compensate me for having my career ruined by the police. I always looked after myself and earned my own living until the police interfered with my job and drove me to go on sick benefits.
According to your beliefs, this means that the AoK had foreseen that this particular incarnation (your current incarnation) would suffer at the hands of the police (other incarnations). The AoK then determined, as your soul stood before them on the spirit plane, that the above foreseen suffering (and possibly any other suffering) experienced by this incarnation (your current incarnation) would be enough to bring your soul into karmic balance because you were a naughty soul in your previous incarnation.

This also means that the AoK needed to put souls into the police incarnations in order to cause your incarnation it's predetermined suffering.

Some rogue angels went against God's rules of "no interference" and also went against what the AoK had determined what was right for your soul for karmic balance.

Is this correct Scorpion?
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Old 25th June 2021, 05:38 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe I received an unusual , special dispensation. Possibly to compensate me for having my career ruined by the police.
Is this what happened Scorpion?

1. Your soul stood before the AoK while it was on the spirit plane
2. The AoK determined that you needed to suffer X amount to have karmic balance
3. As your soul waited, the AoK looked into the future of numerous incarnations and found one that would receive the X amount of suffering they determined your soul needed
4. They then put your soul into said incarnation
5. During your life, rogue angels decided that they thought you suffered too much and gave you a special dispensation to make up for it thus going against what the AoK decided what was best for your soul and messing up your path to karmic balance

Is this correct?
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Old 25th June 2021, 05:40 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Nevertheless, brains are physical, and there is nothing in brains that is different from all other physical objects, and certainly nothing that can explain why brains are able to interacts with metaphysical communication, when nothing else in the world can.
The fact that stimulating the brain with properly placed electrodes can produce specific emotions,and the fact that there are mind (thought) altering drugs, are both things that strongly suggest thoughts have a physical origin.
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Old 25th June 2021, 05:43 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There was a ghastly case in the US a few years ago where a woman murdered her children in order to ensure they went to heaven,
There was a film back in the 1990’s called The Rapture. It followed a similar theme. I recall it made an impression on me at the time - I may need to revisit it.
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Old 25th June 2021, 06:38 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The fact that stimulating the brain with properly placed electrodes can produce specific emotions,and the fact that there are mind (thought) altering drugs, are both things that strongly suggest thoughts have a physical origin.
The spirit works through the limitations of the brain, but you are talking to someone who fought a war for possession of my mind against schizophrenia, and drug control. I fought my way off medication, and stayed off them from 1980 to around 2012. I only went on them then to stop drinking. This too I have succeeded in doing. I have not had a drink for 6 years.
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Old 25th June 2021, 06:47 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Is this what happened Scorpion?

1. Your soul stood before the AoK while it was on the spirit plane
2. The AoK determined that you needed to suffer X amount to have karmic balance
3. As your soul waited, the AoK looked into the future of numerous incarnations and found one that would receive the X amount of suffering they determined your soul needed
4. They then put your soul into said incarnation
5. During your life, rogue angels decided that they thought you suffered too much and gave you a special dispensation to make up for it thus going against what the AoK decided what was best for your soul and messing up your path to karmic balance

Is this correct?
I don't think the angel was rogue, it was just making adjustments.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 25th June 2021, 06:59 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have not had a drink for 6 years.
Just taking the time, amongst the pointing out of the nonsense, to say kudos for this. It is no small feat.
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Old 25th June 2021, 07:02 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
So you could be wrong about Dickens being inspired? Or the Upanishads?




Why would they do this?

Seriously, why? Why bother?



So, if the majority thought his work was dreck, even if you still adored it, that would indicate that he isn't inspired? What if the vast majority of the world loves a work but you hate it?
Again I would really like an answer please
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Old 25th June 2021, 07:15 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit works through the limitations of the brain...
If that's true, then the "limitations of the brain" will necessarily include the means by which we know thoughts originate and process in the brain. That means a physical process by which that happens, since the result would have to be the physical manifestation of thought. I need you to explain the physics of your proposed telepathy mechanism, please, if I'm going to believe you have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Simply pretending that it must necessarily lie completely outside the realm of known mechanisms is too convenient.

Quote:
...but you are talking to someone who fought a war for possession of my mind...
None of that is relevant to the question being asked. Please give pertinent answers and refrain from taking every opportunity to describe how prodigious you are.
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