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Old 21st July 2021, 04:12 PM   #41
Captain_Swoop
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Trebles all round.

Private Eye have documented the goings on of Joe Anderson and Liverpool Council for years.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:15 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Lost it? Typical Scouse, they'll have nicked it and flogged it to someone in the pub!



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Old 21st July 2021, 04:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Lost it? Typical Scouse, they'll have nicked it and flogged it to someone in the pub!
Hey! My shed earned that status!
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If a major goal of official recognition is preservation through highlighting value among local people and leaders then it makes sense to revoke if this fails. If the Great Barrier Reef dies or we trash Kakadu then the only place to experience them is in the historical record.
Like ST says, cities are first and foremost resources to support human life. It seems quite arrogant to me for some NGO to tell the residents of that city that it's more important for them to preserve it in its current form without change.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Oh, then you'll love what they're planning to do here...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...bf732a90_c.jpg
Things to Come?
by SteveH, on Flickr
Loving how you are from "St Aines" but the petition is going to save "STAINES".

I live in a somewhat hippy-dippy community on the USA Olympic Peninsula. In the 1850's to 18880's it was going to be the Next Big Thing. But although easy to get to by ship, it was awkward to get to by rail, who preferred to go to Seattle. So this place stagnated and wound up with a lot of historic (i.e. "old") buildings and houses. Any changes are VERY controversial now.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's a binary choice when your urban development schemes will quite clearly undermine the historical value of the heritage site.
Apparently most of the places on Penny Lane that are mentioned in the song are now derelict. I'm not sure there's a lot of historical value in preserving a patch of urban blight.

Also, what exactly is "historical value" in a city? How does it stack up against "practical measures to improve housing and commerce for the thousands of human beings who actually live here"?

The only real "historical value" alluded to so far is tourism revenue. Which, okay, fine. But shouldn't that be an economic matter for the city itself to decide, rather than an ethical dilemma that the rest of us need to have an opinion about?
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:49 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apparently most of the places on Penny Lane that are mentioned in the song are now derelict. I'm not sure there's a lot of historical value in preserving a patch of urban blight.

Also, what exactly is "historical value" in a city? How does it stack up against "practical measures to improve housing and commerce for the thousands of human beings who actually live here"?

The only real "historical value" alluded to so far is tourism revenue. Which, okay, fine. But shouldn't that be an economic matter for the city itself to decide, rather than an ethical dilemma that the rest of us need to have an opinion about?
Penny Lane was huge disappointment when I visited Liverpool (and yes,being Beatles fas was my wife's and I main reason for making a two day trip from London) but most of the other Beatles site fulfilled expectations.
On the other hand, seeing the sort of Hippie Disneyland that the Haight has become in San Francisco maybe a dereleict street is the better alternative.....

But I don't think it should always be left up to local governments, who often only have the dollar ..or pound..signs in their eyes.To use a cliche, they often know the price of everything but the value of nothing.I have been involved with several Civil War Battlefiels Preservation battles. Our greatest VIctory was Brandy Station in Virginia (site of the largest Cavalry bettle of the Civil War) in the face of several development schemes. It was a long fight, but now almost all of the battlefield is in the hands of Historiacl Trust organizations, and building a museum is underway.
We got some unintenional help from the enemy, when a County officials turned out to have a lot of investments in one of the development companies, and he had to resign because of a major conflict of interest.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:51 PM   #48
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That the Beatles got out of Liverpool as fast as the could should tell you all you need to know about the city.
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Old 21st July 2021, 04:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That the Beatles got out of Liverpool as fast as the could should tell you all you need to know about the city.
Your personal prejudices against the city don't really tell me anything about it.

ETA: And I'm sure there are many fine and reputable folks who have not left Liverpool as fast as they could. Surely that balances out the Beatles' disdain for the place? Especially if I don't idolize the Beatles?

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Old 21st July 2021, 05:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That the Beatles got out of Liverpool as fast as the could should tell you all you need to know about the city.
You from the South of England, right?
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Old 21st July 2021, 05:53 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like ST says, cities are first and foremost resources to support human life. It seems quite arrogant to me for some NGO to tell the residents of that city that it's more important for them to preserve it in its current form without change.
Right and UNESCO offers recognition of value to encourage conservation. There are competing values at work here in a world where the pragmatic choices tend to win out. Framing the situation as dictatorial is a misrepresentation.

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Old 21st July 2021, 05:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Right and UNESCO offers recognition of value to encourage conservation. There are competing values at work here in a world where the pragmatic choices tend to win out. Framing the situation as dictatorial is a misrepresentation.
Not dictatorial. Arrogant.
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Old 21st July 2021, 06:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not dictatorial. Arrogant.
Makes less sense as an objection.
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Old 21st July 2021, 07:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Makes less sense as an objection.
I dunno. I think the objection that I find it arrogant makes perfect and complete sense as an objection that I find it arrogant.

Anyway, do you think the committee was right to list Liverpool as a WHS? Do you think they were right to delist it for the pretext given? Do you think the city was wrong to prioritize other things than the committee's opinion? Do you think it makes sense in general for the committee to list living cities, rather than natural wonders and historical preserves?

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Old 21st July 2021, 07:32 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno. I think the objection that I find it arrogant makes perfect and complete sense as an objection that I find it arrogant.
It’s one if these libertarian things where you don’t like being told what to do?
They didn’t explain how this thing works when awarding or removing it? They didn’t have “awe gee really sorry to do this but we are going to have to take Liverpool off our list of conservation sites. Still a great city though! Hugs n kisses UNESCO” in the dear, John letter?

UNESCO heritage goals and purposes in listing are clear. If it doesn’t align with your values then put the certificate in the bin and not on the fridge for all to see with backslapping all round. And don’t be shocked when after you bulldoze the best part of it and put up a parking lot that that listing is revoked.

The purpose of the listing is to preserve things selected as having world value for future generations. When the Barrier Reef is a dead underwater wasteland the conservation focus is a lost cause. Scratching is obvious.

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Old 21st July 2021, 09:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not dictatorial. Arrogant.
And acting as if they have a right to be listed on UNESCO is not arrogant? If they ultimately cared so little about the value of conserving the area then they shouldn't have sought listing in the first place.
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Old 21st July 2021, 09:25 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you think the city was wrong to prioritize other things than the committee's opinion?
If they did then they can't honestly pretend to be upset and act like they have been victimized by UNESCO they choose to prioritize other things than the UNESCO listing. Choices have consequences and you can't have your cake and eat it.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 01:27 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Loving how you are from "St Aines" but the petition is going to save "STAINES".

I live in a somewhat hippy-dippy community on the USA Olympic Peninsula. In the 1850's to 18880's it was going to be the Next Big Thing. But although easy to get to by ship, it was awkward to get to by rail, who preferred to go to Seattle. So this place stagnated and wound up with a lot of historic (i.e. "old") buildings and houses. Any changes are VERY controversial now.
Well, 'St Aines' is what we call a joke. When they were coming up with a new name for Staines (after that twat Ali G decided to trash the place - something the council and developers are carrying on with), the major suggestionis what we got - the wildly imaginative 'Staines-Upon-Thames'.

A couple of us thought this was a bit dull, so we made up an Anglo-Saxon saint (there has been a settlement here since pre-Roman times) called Aine to name the place after. She lived as a hermit down by the river, where The Swan Hotel is and was followed by swans all the time. Didn't catch on.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 01:37 AM   #59
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This reminds me of The Rocks in Sydney, where the state government in the early 1970s planned to pull down all the historical buildings and evicting (mainly poor) residents, and replacing them with ugly office buildings. What saved this jewel? Union bans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ro...ew_South_Wales

Saving history often pays off.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 01:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You from the South of England, right?
No, far from it.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 02:06 AM   #61
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It's not a binary choice between preservation and development. You can retain WHS status if you develop sympathetically. As some have suggested, it was in fact the case that the Liverpool mayor didn't care about the status and decribed it was a "certificate on a wall". The fact is that much development in Liverpool was out shoddy, cheap, ugly and out of character.

Decent though rather snobby in tone summary from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...tatus-stripped


Basically losing WHS status is a symptom of a corrupt planning system.


eta: Before the sniping starts - I like Liverpool. Visited a few times to meet friends and it's much maligned. A lot of problems but it's got a lot going on.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 04:18 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It's not a binary choice between preservation and development. You can retain WHS status if you develop sympathetically. As some have suggested, it was in fact the case that the Liverpool mayor didn't care about the status and decribed it was a "certificate on a wall". The fact is that much development in Liverpool was out shoddy, cheap, ugly and out of character.

Decent though rather snobby in tone summary from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...tatus-stripped


Basically losing WHS status is a symptom of a corrupt planning system.


eta: Before the sniping starts - I like Liverpool. Visited a few times to meet friends and it's much maligned. A lot of problems but it's got a lot going on.
I'm not seeing what's corrupt about a mayor deciding WHS isn't something the city should care about.

The city could have preserved the status if they wanted to, either through a building freeze or through other aesthetic restrictions. Sounds like they chose not to. If this is something that enrages enough Liverpool people, it could cost the current leadership at the ballot box. Somehow I remain skeptical that too many people really care that much.

To suggest corruption it would probably be wise to show how this lack of action was somehow out of step with the general will of the city residents, or how improper influence peddling was at play. Otherwise it just sounds like persevering a pretty waterfront was not a priority compared to other conflicting demands. That's politics.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 05:00 AM   #63
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Well, getting arrested for corruption involving planning and then intimidating witnesses probably features somewhere.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 06:09 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would say they are well intentioned but occasionally do stupid things.
That sounds a lot like the United Nations and a lot of other self-serving, self-aggrandizing institutions..
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Old 22nd July 2021, 08:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It's not a binary choice between preservation and development. You can retain WHS status if you develop sympathetically. As some have suggested, it was in fact the case that the Liverpool mayor didn't care about the status and decribed it was a "certificate on a wall". The fact is that much development in Liverpool was out shoddy, cheap, ugly and out of character.

Decent though rather snobby in tone summary from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...tatus-stripped


Basically losing WHS status is a symptom of a corrupt planning system.


eta: Before the sniping starts - I like Liverpool. Visited a few times to meet friends and it's much maligned. A lot of problems but it's got a lot going on.
I pretty much agree with this, politics in Liverpool has been a corrupt cesspool for decades. I also like Liverpool, and lived there for 5 years.

I do have the strangest feeling that if the first two letters in the acronym of the body withdrawing the designation were not UN there would be way fewer knee jerk uninformed diatribes in the thread.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 08:52 AM   #66
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Yeah, as others have said, as long as they have the mockup of the Cavern Club (it's already not the original) and keep painting the crosswalk at Abbey Road and there is a barbershop on Penny Lane and they don't completely raze Strawberry Fields (Strawberry Fields is forever, right?) and they keep that building that has the historical marker on the spot where Lennon met McCartney, people will still come to Liverpool.

Our trip there last year got cancelled because of Covid. Very disappointing.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 08:54 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If they did then they can't honestly pretend to be upset and act like they have been victimized by UNESCO they choose to prioritize other things than the UNESCO listing. Choices have consequences and you can't have your cake and eat it.
I hadn't heard that the city government was acting very victimized. However, I think it would be entirely reasonable to take the position that the city is going to do what it thinks is best for the city, and that they also think it would be a dick move for UNESCO to remove the listing as a result.

I think there's also bound to be some amount of pro forma political rhetoric from the city about this. That I can't really bring myself to be outraged about.

Anyway, I'm more interested in whether it makes sense for UNESCO to list living cities in the first place, and why the a priori assumption that Liverpool was wrong for developing.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 08:55 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It's not a binary choice between preservation and development. You can retain WHS status if you develop sympathetically.
If you develop according to a system that prioritizes preserving that status. That may not be the best development system for the needs of your city and its residents.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 09:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, as others have said, as long as they have the mockup of the Cavern Club (it's already not the original) and keep painting the crosswalk at Abbey Road and there is a barbershop on Penny Lane and they don't completely raze Strawberry Fields (Strawberry Fields is forever, right?) and they keep that building that has the historical marker on the spot where Lennon met McCartney, people will still come to Liverpool.

Our trip there last year got cancelled because of Covid. Very disappointing.
Abbey Road is in London.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 10:12 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hadn't heard that the city government was acting very victimized. However, I think it would be entirely reasonable to take the position that the city is going to do what it thinks is best for the city, and that they also think it would be a dick move for UNESCO to remove the listing as a result.
There's nothing reasonable about acting like they have their cake and eat it at the same time, nor is it reasonable to be upset about UNESCO actually holding Liverpool city to account for failing to uphold their commitments.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 10:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you develop according to a system that prioritizes preserving that status. That may not be the best development system for the needs of your city and its residents.

In the specific case of Liverpool it does not appear to have had the best development by any metric other than lining some peoples' pockets.



There is some evidence that UNESCO standards may be arbitrary - Exhibit A
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Old 22nd July 2021, 11:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
There's nothing reasonable about acting like they have their cake and eat it at the same time, nor is it reasonable to be upset about UNESCO actually holding Liverpool city to account for failing to uphold their commitments.
What is and isn't reasonable is a matter of opinion. I'm not bothered that we have differences of opinion about this.

However, I am a little surprised at the idea that UNESCO assigning WHS status to a site imposes any sort of commitment on the administrators of the site. As far as I know, the government of Liverpool has commitments only to the citizens of Liverpool, and to the higher levels of government that have jurisdiction over the city.
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Old 22nd July 2021, 12:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

However, I am a little surprised at the idea that UNESCO assigning WHS status to a site imposes any sort of commitment on the administrators of the site. As far as I know, the government of Liverpool has commitments only to the citizens of Liverpool, and to the higher levels of government that have jurisdiction over the city.

The status has a certain prestige which may or may not matter to people. As has been said, the Liverpool mayor attached no value to WHS status and it did not influence his decisions so he made other decisions and eventually those clashed with WHS status in UNESCO's ideas that they lost the status.

I've not been there for 2 years so I have no idea what local feeling is but I suspect the local feeling is "so what? We have other stuff to worry about".

It only imposes any obligation if you value the status.

I would suggest you read the Guardian article I linked to above. It covers this and has links to other articles about corruption in the Liverpool planning committee an oversight thereof.

And it's not just UNESCO https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...r-docks-scheme
Quote:
Using a common developer tactic, Peel proposed a level of extreme overdevelopment they may have thought would never be accepted. But, remarkably, the plans were waved through in 2012. Despite severe concerns raised by design and heritage watchdogs, there was no public inquiry. Historic England said the setting of the waterfront would be “severely compromised”, the archaeology of the docks would be “at risk of destruction” and the city’s urban landscape left “permanently unbalanced”.
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Old 24th July 2021, 01:39 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, as others have said, as long as they have the mockup of the Cavern Club (it's already not the original) and keep painting the crosswalk at Abbey Road and there is a barbershop on Penny Lane and they don't completely raze Strawberry Fields (Strawberry Fields is forever, right?) and they keep that building that has the historical marker on the spot where Lennon met McCartney, people will still come to Liverpool.

Our trip there last year got cancelled because of Covid. Very disappointing.
This. 90% of Liverpool tourism is all about four things:John,Paul, George, and Ringo.
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Old 26th July 2021, 04:31 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, getting arrested for corruption involving planning and then intimidating witnesses probably features somewhere.
I don't really see how the general scummy nature of the relationship between big city real estate and local government has more than a coincidental intersection with the question of preserving the historic nature of the waterfront.

It almost goes without saying that any large development of a large real estate project is going to involve quite a bit of wheeling and dealing, much of which may cross into outright corruption. Is such corruption responsible for the loss of UNESCO status here? A corrupt development could have still been required to maintain the "historic" style if that were the priority of the city's development plan.
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Old 27th July 2021, 02:10 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
** Which is why Liverpool's waterfront was originally awarded that World Heritage status, while (for example) Hull's waterfront was not....
If there are any tourists wishing to see some derelict docks, they are more than welcome to come to hull. Some are filled in, but as St Andrews Quay is now a retail park, this could soon be pulled down, and the docks dug back up.

We also have a building that is being pushed to be saved for heritage reasons: The Lordline building, which is an accident waiting to happen, with teenagers exploring it, and urban explorers looking to record its features.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news...g-hull-4454146

Youtube of an explorer:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Obviously, if you're tempted to explore this yourself - DON'T!
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Last edited by wobs; 27th July 2021 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:37 AM   #77
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Hull is after more dock space to handle the increased Offshore Wind traffic.
They already rebuilt Alexandra Dock and put in the Siemens plant but lost actual dock space and both the King George and Queen Elizabeth Docks are at capacity.
St Andrews Dock is is the obvious answer. It's still a dock, it just needs dredging and the lock gates renewing.

It's not very big though.
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Old 27th July 2021, 05:14 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Penny Lane was huge disappointment when I visited Liverpool (and yes,being Beatles fas was my wife's and I main reason for making a two day trip from London) but most of the other Beatles site fulfilled expectations.
On the other hand, seeing the sort of Hippie Disneyland that the Haight has become in San Francisco maybe a dereleict street is the better alternative.....

But I don't think it should always be left up to local governments, who often only have the dollar ..or pound..signs in their eyes.To use a cliche, they often know the price of everything but the value of nothing.I have been involved with several Civil War Battlefiels Preservation battles. Our greatest VIctory was Brandy Station in Virginia (site of the largest Cavalry bettle of the Civil War) in the face of several development schemes. It was a long fight, but now almost all of the battlefield is in the hands of Historiacl Trust organizations, and building a museum is underway.
We got some unintenional help from the enemy, when a County officials turned out to have a lot of investments in one of the development companies, and he had to resign because of a major conflict of interest.
Was one of those development schemes Disney?
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Old 27th July 2021, 03:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Loving how you are from "St Aines" but the petition is going to save "STAINES".
I lived in Lytham St Annes when I was very young. My mother received a phone call one evening from a bloke in "Chicago, Illinois" who actually wanted a number in Staines.

My life got a bit boring after that.
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Old 28th July 2021, 01:40 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
I lived in Lytham St Annes when I was very young. My mother received a phone call one evening from a bloke in "Chicago, Illinois" who actually wanted a number in Staines.

My life got a bit boring after that.
Just think how much fun you would be having if St Aines had been the winning name!
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