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Old 26th July 2021, 07:00 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
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Florida "pre-crime" program selects citizens for relentless police harassment.

https://www.tampabay.com/investigati...ccountability/

Quote:
It starts like an offer of admission from a prestigious university.

“We are pleased to inform you that you have been selected…” it says.

But the four-page letter from the Pasco Sheriff’s Office goes on to tell recipients they will be facing enhanced police scrutiny under the agency’s controversial intelligence program.

“You may wonder why you were enrolled in this program,” the letter continues. “You were selected as a result of an evaluation of your recent criminal behavior using an unbiased, evidence-based risk assessment designed to identify prolific offenders in our community. As a result of this designation, we will go to great efforts to encourage change in your life through enhanced support and increased accountability.”

Last year, a Tampa Bay Times investigation revealed that the Sheriff’s Office creates lists of people it considers likely to break the law based on criminal histories, social networks and other unspecified intelligence. The agency sends deputies to their homes repeatedly, often without a search warrant or probable cause for an arrest.

Targets and their relatives, including four who are now suing the Sheriff’s Office in federal court, described the tactics as harassment and a violation of their constitutional rights. National policing experts drew comparisons to child abuse and surveillance that could be expected under an authoritarian regime.

The sheriff also has a program to monitor school children and label those with poor grades, attendance, and history of abuse as "future criminals".

Quote:
The Times found being named a Sheriff’s Office target could have serious consequences. Deputies showed up at homes at all hours of the day and night, writing tickets for violations like overgrown grass and making arrests for any reason they could find.
Algorithm identifies people as criminals and cops harass them with petty arrests and citations, which produces data that validates the decision to prejudicially declare them criminals. Lovely.
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Old 26th July 2021, 07:03 AM   #2
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Old 26th July 2021, 07:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.tampabay.com/investigati...ccountability/

The sheriff also has a program to monitor school children and label those with poor grades, attendance, and history of abuse as "future criminals".

Algorithm identifies people as criminals and cops harass them with petty arrests and citations, which produces data that validates the decision to prejudicially declare them criminals. Lovely.
I see the lawsuit being successful on this one. I hope they sue this sheriff's department into the ground. Leave nothing left. Make it look like the Grinch went through it.
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.tampabay.com/investigati...ccountability/




The sheriff also has a program to monitor school children and label those with poor grades, attendance, and history of abuse as "future criminals".



Algorithm identifies people as criminals and cops harass them with petty arrests and citations, which produces data that validates the decision to prejudicially declare them criminals. Lovely.
In an effort to help you stay out of jail, we're going to increase our efforts to find something to put you in jail. So straighten up!
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:40 AM   #5
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Has anyone seen Tom Cruise in this sheriff's department, doing gestures in empty space?
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:40 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The sheriff also has a program to monitor school children and label those with poor grades, attendance, and history of abuse as "future criminals".


They have to keep the school to prison pipeline flowing smoothly.
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:51 AM   #7
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:53 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I see the lawsuit being successful on this one. I hope they sue this sheriff's department into the ground. Leave nothing left. Make it look like the Grinch went through it.
I could see conservative jurists upholding the general policy by characterizing it as the department deciding how to allocate limited police resources. Then having a case by case basis that defines harassment so narrowly that rarely does a specific case qualify. They would ignore the criteria or uphold them as unbiased because they aren't explicitly racist.

Really, cops do this all the time. They just usually don't act this galaxy brained about it to the point of claiming some objective process that is trust us unbiased even though one of the admitted criteria is a criminal record which is something long established as inherently biased as to race and wealth. That some people are "known to the police" is a thing in smaller jurisdictions.
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Old 26th July 2021, 08:57 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I could see conservative jurists upholding the general policy by characterizing it as the department deciding how to allocate limited police resources. Then having a case by case basis that defines harassment so narrowly that rarely does a specific case qualify. They would ignore the criteria or uphold them as unbiased because they aren't explicitly racist.

Really, cops do this all the time. They just usually don't act this galaxy brained about it to the point of claiming some objective process that is trust us unbiased even though one of the admitted criteria is a criminal record which is something long established as inherently biased as to race and wealth. That some people are "known to the police" is a thing in smaller jurisdictions.
It's probably a good thing to keep in mind that "arrest data" is not synonymous with "crime data".

Police have tremendous discretion on how and where they enforce the law, and arrest data reflects that. How many people are getting arrested is more reflection of police policy and discretion than it is about any underlying reality about how much crime is occurring.

A program like this sounds like it would generate huge amounts of data about crimes among the populations targeted by this scheme, that really has no relation to any true underlying change in the amount of crime that is occurring, but could be used to justify further targeted enforcement.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Get me off this planet.
No problem, ma'am. That'll be 12 million Euros. You have your selection of noxious Io, frigid Europa, broken Miranda or hellish Venus.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:20 AM   #11
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:22 AM   #12
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I'm sure the ratio of minorities to white people in the program mirrors the general population, right?
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No problem, ma'am. That'll be 12 million Euros. You have your selection of noxious Io, frigid Europa, broken Miranda or hellish Venus.
These should all be band names, especially Noxious Io.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:38 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm sure the ratio of minorities to white people in the program mirrors the general population, right?
Sure, just give us a chance to review the data and "cull potentially misleading outliers which could seem to indicate false conclusions." Your patience is appreciated. The raw data being released to the public would be quite inappropriate, you see?

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Old 26th July 2021, 09:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm sure the ratio of minorities to white people in the program mirrors the general population, right?
Hopefully that closely correlates to crime demographics for the county/areas within, and is not based solely on skin color.

Show me the actual letter and the exact criteria for selection, and then I will decide whether to complain or not.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:48 AM   #16
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I don't care what the criteria is - I am complaining, because this isn't the Soviet Union.

I wouldn't be very surprised to learn that many (if not most) of the people on the list are scoundrels. As usual, that's not the point. There shouldn't be such a list. Police should only show up at someone's house if they have a reason, and "you're on our list" does not suit my criteria for an acceptable reason.
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't care what the criteria is - I am complaining, because this isn't the Soviet Union.

I wouldn't be very surprised to learn that many (if not most) of the people on the list are scoundrels. As usual, that's not the point. There shouldn't be such a list. Police should only show up at someone's house if they have a reason, and "you're on our list" does not suit my criteria for an acceptable reason.
You're forgetting about the cleansing power of the algorithm. It's a wonderful black box that launders all accountability! A truly marvelous, unimpeachable process that makes what is obviously an oppressive police state policy actually futuristic and cool and good.

Big tech is disrupting the police harassment industry at last!
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:59 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't care what the criteria is - I am complaining, because this isn't the Soviet Union.
In Soviet Russia, crime commits you!
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Old 26th July 2021, 09:59 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Hopefully that closely correlates to crime demographics for the county/areas within, and is not based solely on skin color.

Show me the actual letter and the exact criteria for selection, and then I will decide whether to complain or not.
Nobody actually cares if you complain or not, to be honest. If you're curious, look it up. You know how the internet works. Why don't you do that and then report back to us what you find? I'm sure we'll all be interested. Asking others to go out and do your research for you is pretty lazy.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
These should all be band names, especially Noxious Io.


Well I guess it's off to the Uranium mine of Io for you. I'm sure Sean Connery'll be glad to have you there!
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:02 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You're forgetting about the cleansing power of the algorithm. It's a wonderful black box that launders all accountability!
Absolutely. It ain't the officer's fault that he shot you. The computer told us to go there and that you were black dangerous! What were we supposed to do?
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Nobody actually cares if you complain or not, to be honest. If you're curious, look it up. You know how the internet works. Why don't you do that and then report back to us what you find? I'm sure we'll all be interested. Asking others to go out and do your research for you is pretty lazy.
I didn't see the full text or exact criteria in the article I was able to read. I'm not asking anyone to look it up for me...but I am also not going to express outrage over an article, when it doesn't clearly illustrate the all of the facts. Let's not complain about "bias", while potentially embracing it.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I didn't see the full text or exact criteria in the article I was able to read.
Yup, tough break. You might have to do a bit more of a deep dive to figure it out then.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not asking anyone to look it up for me...but I am also not going to express outrage over an article, when it doesn't clearly illustrate the all of the facts.
Which, as I said, no one is asking you to nor does anyone care if you decide you want to. Either way.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let's not complain about "bias", while potentially embracing it.
Someone made a snarky comment, no outrage until someone needlessly dies. You took issue with the comment, obviously. Time will tell if it becomes an issue but I'd say the police department probably isn't releasing who they sent the letters to, and the people who received them probably aren't itching to let others know about it.

No news articles display all of the facts, that would be ridiculous. It would lead to entirely too much information to take in at one time.

Read the entirety of the process on government webpages. Let us know what you dig up.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Read the entirety of the process on government webpages. Let us know what you dig up.
Why bother? I should just follow the proven model of expressing an emotionally-based opinion, without considering all of the facts. Like any skeptic should, right?
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:21 AM   #25
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Calibration on the pre-crime mystery box must be broken, it keeps saying that all these cops are disproportionally wife beaters.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why bother? I should just follow the proven model of expressing an emotionally-based opinion, without considering all of the facts. Like any skeptic should, right?
You're not even considering the known facts. The performative chiding of others for being critical of the program isn't based on honest skepticism; it's an emotionally driven defense of political worldview.

We know that arrests and stops by police in the US are biased against people of color, against black men most especially. Black men are arrest at at least five times the rate as white men for pot even though consumption rates are the same (it is at least because we don't know how many white people get found with it but not even reported). They are given harsher punishments for it, seven times as much overall. This gives black men a much more 'bad' looking record even though the behavior isn't any difference. These stats hold up controlling for income. These trends hold up for every crime that has been looked into with similar kinds of analysis. There is no reason to believe this isn't true overall.

So any 'pre-crime' allocation of policing that takes into account arrest and punishment records could only compound existing bias against minorities in the US unless they massively correct for it. If they did correct for it in that way, you, and you specifically, would be crying to high heaven about how racist it is to do so.

There is no reason to think this program is productive, and no real reason to not believe it is very harmful based on current data. If you have a problem with people coming to that very skeptical and reasonable conclusion then it's on you to support it, because we don't have to forget everything we know of policing and race in the US every time a new specific tactic comes up.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:30 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why bother? I should just follow the proven model of expressing an emotionally-based opinion, without considering all of the facts. Like any skeptic should, right?
Ah yes, the "no true skeptic" argument. Do you ever get sick of saying that? It's a ******* skeptics forum, but we still BS and take cheap shots at low hanging fruit. Not every single statement is intended, or even wanted, to be made on a purely skeptical basis.

No one here is emotionally charged that I can see. A few flippant comments, but hey, if you need the "I r teh onlee trew skapteek" shoe on, then you lace that bitch up and wear it. Congratulations sir Skeptic. The one, the only. Just not skeptical enough to actually put in any work, do any research, provide any counter evidence, or provide any actual refutable point. A true skeptic indeed.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.tampabay.com/investigati...ccountability/




The sheriff also has a program to monitor school children and label those with poor grades, attendance, and history of abuse as "future criminals".



Algorithm identifies people as criminals and cops harass them with petty arrests and citations, which produces data that validates the decision to prejudicially declare them criminals. Lovely.
I could see this being OK if they had lots of carrot. We recognise that you have anger management issues so we are going to fund you attending counselling and an anger management group. We recognise that you are dyslexic have poor literacy and failed to graduate high school so we have arranged adult literacy classes. We recognise that your previous convictions make it hard for you to get employment so we have found employers prepared to take you on for a trial basis so you can get an employment history and reference to help you into long term employment we will also help you with how to complete applications and help with a resume.

The theme here seems to be 'the more you beat them, the better they be', and I am not sure that is even true with women, dogs or walnut trees.

You just think has no-one in this law enforcement department read anything on the causes of crime or the evidence of interventions to prevent criminality. Just picked up some ideas from right-wing web sites, and decided this makes evidence based policy. Well it worked for the last president I guess, so who can blame a small town sheriff.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:33 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You're not even considering the known facts. The performative chiding of others for being critical of the program isn't based on honest skepticism; it's an emotionally driven defense of political worldview.

We know that arrests and stops by police in the US are biased against people of color, against black men most especially. Black men are arrest at at least five times the rate as white men for pot even though consumption rates are the same (it is at least because we don't know how many white people get found with it but not even reported). They are given harsher punishments for it, seven times as much overall. This gives black men a much more 'bad' looking record even though the behavior isn't any difference. These stats hold up controlling for income. These trends hold up for every crime that has been looked into with similar kinds of analysis. There is no reason to believe this isn't true overall.

So any 'pre-crime' allocation of policing that takes into account arrest and punishment records could only compound existing bias against minorities in the US unless they massively correct for it. If they did correct for it in that way, you, and you specifically, would be crying to high heaven about how racist it is to do so.

There is no reason to think this program is productive, and no real reason to not believe it is very harmful based on current data. If you have a problem with people coming to that very skeptical and reasonable conclusion then it's on you to support it, because we don't have to forget everything we know of policing and race in the US every time a new specific tactic comes up.
I am commenting on the potential bias of any reporting, and how quick people are to embrace their "feelings". If you can't see that as a possibility, ok. I'm just not going to express outrage over such articles that are clearly aiming for an emotional response. Which clearly, they have gotten.
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Old 26th July 2021, 10:33 AM   #30
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Was there a thread here already about this topic? I know there was a decent video that interviewed people targeted by this policy and a breakdown of its effectiveness. It might seem trivial but people do tolerate programs like this if they believe they work, vs being shown the human element involved and the data that they do not. Mainly because they themselves are not being bothered by it.

The funny thing is I would not be surprised if the police could actually isolate a large portion of crime caused by a small population of criminals. Would a different organization be better suited to handle how to address those situations? Targeted mentor programs, resources for parents that lack the financial help required to provide supervision and guidance. I do not really like the idea but I could see this being painted in an entirely different light if the actual use of the data was for a purpose of deterrence through increased resources vs increase police interactions.
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Old 26th July 2021, 11:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why bother? I should just follow the proven model of expressing an emotionally-based opinion, without considering all of the facts. Like any skeptic should, right?
Constable Savage is on the case!

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Old 26th July 2021, 11:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am commenting on the potential bias of any reporting, and how quick people are to embrace their "feelings". If you can't see that as a possibility, ok.
Only you can say what your intention is. Externally, it looks like you're taking a hypothetical potential bias and treating it the same as a definitively established bias for the purposes of your arguments.

If you can find evidence to support a factual bias in the article then post it. "You don't know if this article is biased so it is unskeptical to comment or form an opinion based on the information in it until we have found out for certain" is just a contrarian objection to conversation about anything in general. People are more than capable of changing or adapting their opinions to account for new information.
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Old 26th July 2021, 11:46 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
People are more than capable of changing or adapting their opinions to account for new information.
Why do that when you are comfortably biased, to start? I'm just saying, I'm not reaching a judgement when I read an article that displays clear bias, via it's language.....much less, displaying outrage.
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Old 26th July 2021, 11:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why do that when you are comfortably biased, to start? I'm just saying, I'm not reaching a judgement when I read an article that displays clear bias, via it's language.....much less, displaying outrage.
Why do you keep acting like someone wants you to be outraged? Better yet, can you name a single person in this thread that's acting "outraged"?

I've seen a few people point out that a law like this could easily be used in a bias manner. Also, that due to the systemic racism that already (provably) exists in law enforcement, PoC could be targeted at a higher rate. That's especially true given that PoC are charged more frequently and with higher penalties for the same crimes as their white counterparts. This could easily be "Stop and Frisk" in a different wrapper.

All of that being said though, no one here is outraged. We'll see how it plays out, but you repeating that you're not going to be outraged is ******* pointless. No one cares if you are or aren't outraged. Nobody.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:03 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
All of that being said though, no one here is outraged. We'll see how it plays out, but you repeating that you're not going to be outraged is ******* pointless. No one cares if you are or aren't outraged. Nobody.
That is perhaps the most pointless argument you could make. I am expressing my opinion, while pointing out the total lack of concern for facts...and the focus on "feelings". A repetitive theme in this sub-forum, I might add.

We all know that certain people here have a ridiculous bias in their arguments about police activity, and this thread is just another example of that.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:10 PM   #36
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I'd seen this before. I've linked the original Tampa Bay Times investigation. It's truly despicable.
One expert described their manual as "It feels like everything that’s wrong about policing in one document."

https://projects.tampabay.com/projec...-led-policing/
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why do that when you are comfortably biased, to start? I'm just saying, I'm not reaching a judgement when I read an article that displays clear bias, via it's language.....much less, displaying outrage.
So find an alternative source and satisfy yourself.

If the "bias" you're detecting is a dim view of the program, that doesn't preclude the factuality of basic information in the article - which, it's important to add, includes an embedded PDF of the Sheriff's Office's own letter that if biased at all is biased positively toward the program, providing a counterbalance in the form of the police's own words.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:21 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is perhaps the most pointless argument you could make. I am expressing my opinion, while pointing out the total lack of concern for facts...and the focus on "feelings". A repetitive theme in this sub-forum, I might add.
What facts are being ignored here? Seriously.

A repetitive theme of your posting style is to make accusations like these and then back them up with exactly **** all, then disappear for awhile only to do the same thing in another thread. All while chastising others for not being "skeptics", which is about the best example of projecting I can possibly find.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
We all know that certain people here have a ridiculous bias in their arguments about police activity, and this thread is just another example of that.
You are absolutely right. Some people do have a ridiculous bias in their arguments. Now just provide an example of that happening here. You said it's in the thread. Go ahead and quote a few, explain what their bias is and how it's ignoring those pesky facts you referred to earlier.

Just kidding, we know you won't do that. You'll post some drivel about how you're not going to waste your time, what would be the point, that's not your job, or something to the like.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Pasco is an overwhelmingly white county, and the program did not appear to disproportionately target people based on race.
Well, that ought to at least ease some concerns expressed here.

It is hard to sift through the bias, even in this article. I mean, it is over the top with the blame-shifting and apologist attitudes. Still, it has more information than I have seen elsewhere.

So, now I wonder, is it a matter of bad law, or poor enforcement of the law? Or reporting bias? That isn't completely clear; my guess is, a combination of all three.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is perhaps the most pointless argument you could make. I am expressing my opinion, while pointing out the total lack of concern for facts...and the focus on "feelings". A repetitive theme in this sub-forum, I might add.

We all know that certain people here have a ridiculous bias in their arguments about police activity, and this thread is just another example of that.
So...assume for a minute what the Tampa Bay Times published is true.
What do you think about:

The police showing up late at night to check up on a kid who was arrested two years ago and lecture him about who his friends are? While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

The police showing up multiple times to check on a kid who has, with court approval and police notification, re-located to another county? While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

The police looking through a house's windows. Without a warrant. While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

The police threatening to cite someone for "faded mailbox numbers" if they don't allow them in to search their house. Without a warrant. While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

The police insisting on speaking to a teenager convalescing from minor surgery, who had turned his life around, got his GED and employment. While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

What do you think of the police measuring grass in people's lawns with tape measures in order to find a code violation to harass a kids parent with?

How about the police coming to a parent's work, or a kid's friend's house looking for a kid? While not investigating a crime or suspected crime.

Assume all that happened as described. Is it acceptable?

According to the article, a lot of police officers were uncomfortable with the practice, but were threatened when they voiced their objections. This isn't a pro- or anti- police issue. It's the simple case of this one county's practice. It seems like a good portion of police consider it unethical as well. (Possibly a majority, but I don't have data for that.)
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