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Old 28th July 2021, 10:01 PM   #1
Skeptic Ginger
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The Epic of Gilgamesh stone tablet belongs to Iraq, not to Hobby Lobby

This is so ******* cool! And the fact Hobby Lobby is losing a million plus isn't the important point. The fact there is more evidence of this epic story that predates the Bible is the important point.

NBC: NY Judge Approves Forfeiture of 3,500-Year-Old Epic of Gilgamesh Tablet From Hobby Lobby
Quote:
The cuneiform tablet, written in the ancient language of Akkadian and dating from around 1500 B.C., was illegally transported to the U.S. in 2003 and again in 2014, prosecutors said in a federal complaint.

A false provenance letter was used to sell the tablet several times before Hobby Lobby bought it from a London-based auction house in 2014, prosecutors said.

The artifact, known as the Gilgamesh Dream Tablet, contains a portion of the Gilgamesh epic, considered one of the earliest surviving works of notable literature.

The tablet was seized in 2019 from the Washington, D.C.-based Museum of the Bible, founded by Hobby Lobby executives, and is now being stored in Brooklyn, prosecutors said.
I know it says the tablet is 1500 years old but the story is much older.
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Old 28th July 2021, 10:09 PM   #2
gabeygoat
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is so ******* cool! And the fact Hobby Lobby is losing a million plus isn't the important point. The fact there is more evidence of this epic story that predates the Bible is the important point.

NBC: NY Judge Approves Forfeiture of 3,500-Year-Old Epic of Gilgamesh Tablet From Hobby LobbyI know it says the tablet is 1500 years old but the story is much older.
Looks like it is 3500 years old. Agreed, that's pretty awesome
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Old 28th July 2021, 11:42 PM   #3
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Utnapishtim totally copied Noah.
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Old 29th July 2021, 12:07 AM   #4
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Hobby Lobby should read the Gilgamesh epic while they still have it - it will tell them a lot about their own religion.
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
]I know it says the tablet is 1500 years old but the story is much older.
1500 BCE +2021 CE=3521 Years ago
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:07 AM   #6
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Hope they didn't harm that tablet, their staff is totally incompetent to be handling these items.

BTW the tablet isn't even the tip of the iceberg. I read about this on Wikipedia yesterday and it's over 10,000 items in multiple cases. And the smuggling cases aren't the only scandals this lunatic and his museum are involved in. Their premier collection of Dead Sea Scroll fragments turned out to be entirely fake and the original Bible that they claimed to have been to the Moon and back couldn't be authenticated. They now have one that is authentic I believe but the real ones don't look so impressive.

Think about the potential consequences of them dealing with smugglers in a war zone. Were murders committed to obtain these items? These guys threw large wads of money at criminals.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 29th July 2021 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:16 AM   #7
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Is Hobby Lobby going to appeal? Last time they took a case to the Supreme Court they won the right to force other people to abide by the religious beliefs they didn't even follow themselves, and that court wasn't packed with conservatives like it is now!
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:24 AM   #8
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I am glad Hobby Lobby lost (based on their attempts to enforce religious ideals on people). And, Iraq was definitely robbed.

But does anyone else have any concerns about the safety of the artifact once it is returned? Iraq still isn't exactly a stable place, and it was looted once already. How can we ensure that such historically significant items will remain protected in the face of such risks?
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:26 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I am glad Hobby Lobby lost (based on their attempts to enforce religious ideals on people). And, Iraq was definitely robbed.

But does anyone else have any concerns about the safety of the artifact once it is returned? Iraq still isn't exactly a stable place, and it was looted once already. How can we ensure that such historically significant items will remain protected in the face of such risks?
is there a piece of data available on the tablets that is not currently recorded somewhere?
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:31 AM   #10
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Akkadian, eh?

Nice to see Hobby Lobby get hosed.
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
is there a piece of data available on the tablets that is not currently recorded somewhere?
That's true, we've never learned anything from re-examining artifacts and items years down the road. As long as you make a sketch of it somewhere, should be good forever.
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:46 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Quote:
is there a piece of data available on the tablets that is not currently recorded somewhere?
That's true, we've never learned anything from re-examining artifacts and items years down the road. As long as you make a sketch of it somewhere, should be good forever.
True, but I think there is a natural tendency for people to want to protect certain artifacts, even if there is nothing new to learn from it. Personally, seeing something that's thousands of years old in person gives a different feeling that seeing a picture of the same object.
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:47 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's true, we've never learned anything from re-examining artifacts and items years down the road. As long as you make a sketch of it somewhere, should be good forever.
it was a yes/no question
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:50 AM   #14
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That belongs in a museum!
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Old 29th July 2021, 10:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
True, but I think there is a natural tendency for people to want to protect certain artifacts, even if there is nothing new to learn from it. Personally, seeing something that's thousands of years old in person gives a different feeling that seeing a picture of the same object.
I was being facetious. It's always best to keep an artifact in a protected environment because we can learn things from it repeatedly over the course of centuries. So much evidence of this I am not even going to bother linking it.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
it was a yes/no question
Then look it up and answer it. It's not anyone else's job to answer your inane questions whenever you come up with one. Do some research and let us know what you find.
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Old 29th July 2021, 10:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
1500 BCE +2021 CE=3521 Years ago
Thanks, I wasn't paying proper attention.
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Old 29th July 2021, 11:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Re: Risk of having artifacts housed in unstable parts of the world...
Quote:
True, but I think there is a natural tendency for people to want to protect certain artifacts, even if there is nothing new to learn from it. Personally, seeing something that's thousands of years old in person gives a different feeling that seeing a picture of the same object.
I was being facetious. It's always best to keep an artifact in a protected environment because we can learn things from it repeatedly over the course of centuries. So much evidence of this I am not even going to bother linking it.
My apologies, I had assumed that your statement wasn't satirical, and that everything useful about the tablet (in an academic sense) had been revealed... its age, location of discovery, textual translations, etc.

I am sure that there are cases where artifacts can be re-examined, revealing new information. Maybe its the case here too, but I just can't think of anything.

But even if there is nothing new to be discovered, I still think its good to keep things like the Gilgamesh tablet safe because, well, humans like to be in touch with our history.
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Old 29th July 2021, 11:59 AM   #18
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Hobby lobby has to send the genuine artifacts back and gets to hold onto worthless forgeries.

Sucks to suck.
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Old 29th July 2021, 12:49 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
My apologies, I had assumed that your statement wasn't satirical, and that everything useful about the tablet (in an academic sense) had been revealed... its age, location of discovery, textual translations, etc.

I am sure that there are cases where artifacts can be re-examined, revealing new information. Maybe its the case here too, but I just can't think of anything.

But even if there is nothing new to be discovered, I still think its good to keep things like the Gilgamesh tablet safe because, well, humans like to be in touch with our history.
I immediately think of carbon dating, and the ways dino fossils keep teaching us as better and better tech comes available to examine them.

I could be wrong though, I know little of stuff like this.
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Old 29th July 2021, 01:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Quote:
My apologies, I had assumed that your statement wasn't satirical, and that everything useful about the tablet (in an academic sense) had been revealed... its age, location of discovery, textual translations, etc.
I immediately think of carbon dating, and the ways dino fossils keep teaching us as better and better tech comes available to examine them.

I could be wrong though, I know little of stuff like this.
I think the difference here is that fossils are more of a blank slate. We are dealing with creatures long extinct, with no living relatives to compare them to. So, new technology might uncover additional stuff that wasn't known before.

With the Gilgamesh tablet, I don't think there's much mystery. As long as they know the age (which is likely figured out from where it was located) and the translation (which can be done from photos), I am not sure there is much more that we could learn from the artifact. I doubt whether there is anything significant in the way it was carved or produced.
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Old 29th July 2021, 01:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Is Hobby Lobby going to appeal? Last time they took a case to the Supreme Court they won the right to force other people to abide by the religious beliefs they didn't even follow themselves, and that court wasn't packed with conservatives like it is now!
It's not a religoius issue, it's a simple case of Hob by Lobby having bought stolen goods.
if Iraq can establish ..which they seem to have done...ownership, it's an open a shut case.
BTW does not matter if Hobby Lobby knew it was buying stolen property or not:It needs to be returned to it's owner. No religious freedom issue involved.
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Old 29th July 2021, 03:19 PM   #22
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Hobby Lobby is not contesting the move, so that seems to me it's an open and shut case.
IMHO, smarest thing Iraq could do it establish their legal ownership, then allowed ti to be displayed in a US Museum on a long term loan.
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Old 29th July 2021, 05:22 PM   #23
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If Hobby Lobby were any good at all they could whip up their own copy of the artifact. I guess they don't have crafting skills at all. That's why Michaels has three Holy Grails and an Ark of the Covenant. Which is filled with glitter.
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Old 29th July 2021, 05:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
an Ark of the Covenant. Which is filled with glitter.
Face-melting glitter.
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Old 29th July 2021, 06:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That belongs in a museum!
A proper museum, with trained conservators.
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Old 29th July 2021, 06:34 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If Hobby Lobby were any good at all they could whip up their own copy of the artifact. I guess they don't have crafting skills at all. That's why Michaels has three Holy Grails and an Ark of the Covenant. Which is filled with glitter.
I dabble in the Civil War/Old West collectables market, and you don't want to know the amount of fakery that goes on in all areas..weapons, artifacts, documents.
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Old 29th July 2021, 06:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A proper museum, with trained conservators.
I am going to get blasted for saying this, but the Museum of the Bible isa fairly well respected in the museum . It's a legit museum despite some of it's questionable supporters.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 29th July 2021, 06:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to get blasted for saying this, but the Museum of the Bible isa fairly well respected in the museum . It's a legit museum despite some of it's questionable supporters.
You can avoid being blasted by providing evidence for the assertion or changing your mind if you can't. Your choice.
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Old 29th July 2021, 06:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by gerdbonk View Post
Face-melting glitter.
All glitter does that.
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to get blasted for saying this, but the Museum of the Bible isa fairly well respected in the museum . It's a legit museum despite some of it's questionable supporters.
How do you suppose they labeled the tablet? Was it even on display or in the back in a drawer?
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You can avoid being blasted by providing evidence for the assertion or changing your mind if you can't. Your choice.
I went to their site to take a look. It appears (though does not explicitly say so anywhere I could find) to believe in the Truth of the Bible. However, the qualifications of the staff are very impressive and the archeological research they do seems perfectly genuine.

IMHO. YMMV.
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Old 29th July 2021, 07:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am going to get blasted for saying this, but the Museum of the Bible isa fairly well respected in the museum . It's a legit museum despite some of it's questionable supporters.
Sorry for not catching this in my earlier post but "some of it's questionable supporters."? Which supporters aren't questionable? The primary backers are the Green family and the NCF. It's entirely a venture by people who are worse than merely questionable.
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Old 29th July 2021, 08:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
However, the qualifications of the staff are very impressive and the archeological research they do seems perfectly genuine.
How did they let their premiere exhibit be a set of complete fakes?
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Old 29th July 2021, 09:31 PM   #34
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It was stolen?

So was it a Hobby Lobby Robby?

They only want the best stolen artifacts?

You mean it was a Hobby Lobby Snobby Robby?
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Old 30th July 2021, 12:55 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Utnapishtim totally copied Noah.
I prefer the Whovian take.
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Old 30th July 2021, 03:30 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I am glad Hobby Lobby lost (based on their attempts to enforce religious ideals on people). And, Iraq was definitely robbed.

But does anyone else have any concerns about the safety of the artifact once it is returned? Iraq still isn't exactly a stable place, and it was looted once already. How can we ensure that such historically significant items will remain protected in the face of such risks?
Hide it on the Nazi gold train in Poland. No-one will ever find it.
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Old 30th July 2021, 04:04 AM   #37
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What is Hobby Lobby? I've read a few reports on this, but none of them explain what Hobby Lobby actually is.
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Old 30th July 2021, 04:11 AM   #38
Hellbound
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
What is Hobby Lobby? I've read a few reports on this, but none of them explain what Hobby Lobby actually is.

It’s a craft/hobby store chain in the U.S. one of the major ones, similar to Michael’s.


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Old 30th July 2021, 04:15 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
What is Hobby Lobby? I've read a few reports on this, but none of them explain what Hobby Lobby actually is.
You could have googled this in the time it took you to post.
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Old 30th July 2021, 05:14 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
What is Hobby Lobby? I've read a few reports on this, but none of them explain what Hobby Lobby actually is.
It's a front group for Big Balsa that lobbies Congress in shady backroom deals.
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