Riots, looting, vandalism, etc. - Page 61

SuburbanTurkey · 19th January 2021, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.

Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election.

It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things.

Steve · 19th January 2021, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election.

It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things.

Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?

SuburbanTurkey · 19th January 2021, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?

I would say that the BLM summer has had partial success, but success nonetheless. Certainly more than if they minded their manners and didn't bother anyone.

Distracted1 · 20th January 2021, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?

It's all about the "good trouble", I guess.

Emily's Cat · 20th January 2021, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.

It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side.

Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence.

Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics.

johnny karate · 20th January 2021, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side.

Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence.

Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics.

Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection.

Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying.

Emily's Cat · 20th January 2021, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection.

Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying.

Different beliefs, same behaviors.

The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist.

johnny karate · 20th January 2021, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Different beliefs, same behaviors.

The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist.

No, a violent coup is most decidedly a “different behavior”.

Equating it with rioting and looting minimizes the seriousness of it, and reads as apologist sophistry for right wing terrorism.

Meadmaker · 20th January 2021, 12:47 PM

Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.

johnny karate · 20th January 2021, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.

The methods aren’t equally bad because they aren’t equal methods.

Any bothsider who wants to be taken even remotely seriously needs to acknowledge this very obvious fact.

Cavemonster · 20th January 2021, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.

Mostly agreed.
I think there's a difference between an incorrect cause and a "bad" cause. And I'd say what makes a bad cause is partly that is at least carries a high risk of a harmful action.

If we could have been totally confident that the people who believed the election was stolen and Pence was capable of doing anything about it would stop at waving signs and that would be the end of it, then it would be sad and incorrect but that would be all.

There are legitimate and illegitimate grievances and either can lead to destructive actions. But an illegitimate greivance that doesn't carry a real risk of bad action has mostly its believers as victims.

catsmate · 20th January 2021, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bogative

How about the 50+ secret service agents who were injured during the antifa/BLM riots at the White House this summer. The same riots that involved multiple fires, Molotov cocktails, fireworks, bricks and glass bottles that were used against law enforcement? I seem to recall one of those involving the Secret Service forcing the president into an underground bunker at the White House to which members on this board celebrated. Or do those riots not count for reasons?

So you're not dead, but back to peddle Trumpist "whataboutism'....

Mumbles · 20th January 2021, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.

THe obvious further problem - much of the violence we saw from "BLM protests" fell into three categories:

1 - the destitute/very young, people happy to destroy for it's own sake or loot out of need.

2 - the police, who we saw beating veterans, knocking over the elderly, teargassing people they kettled, etc.

3 - Boogalo Boys and other assorted nationalists happy to attack whoever.

Had the insurrectionists at the Capitol been wearing black hoodies and face masks and so forth, I'd have considered the idea that they were actually Black Bloc anarchists. Instead, we got muppets snitching on themselves on social media, Dances with Karens with his goofball outfit, the desert dish from the Unite the Right rally, and so forth, all happily explaining that they were doing it because Toupee Fiasco wanted them to.

At the same time...yes, lots of people went to protest/see Orange Badman without any violence at all. I won't say I'm fine with it, he was a terrible excuse for a president, but I'm fine with their behavior.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st January 2021, 06:26 AM

Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way.

Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights.

Feds blanketed the streets with gas again.

ponderingturtle · 21st January 2021, 06:31 AM

Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish?

SuburbanTurkey · 21st January 2021, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish?

It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past.

https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696

There is currently a civil suit filed against the city asking for an injunction of this particular tactic.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...Complaint.html

In this particular case, it was someone else they injured.

ponderingturtle · 21st January 2021, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past.

https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696

In this particular case, it was someone else they injured.

I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st January 2021, 06:41 AM

These are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now. Let's see if he reins them in.

johnny karate · 21st January 2021, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way.

Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights.

Feds blanketed the streets with gas again.

Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home.

Steve · 21st January 2021, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

These

Which "these" exactly?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now.

When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task?

(Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?)

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Let's see if he reins them in.

For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st January 2021, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Which "these" exactly?

When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task?

(Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?)

For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power.

They are federal police. ICE agents.

POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch.

I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency.

Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics.

Meadmaker · 21st January 2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home.

Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there.

(i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.)

Steve · 21st January 2021, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

They are federal police. ICE agents.

POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch.

I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency.

Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics.

Your edit is reasonable. Unfortunately it makes the entirety of your post that I quoted unreasonable and unnecessary.

johnny karate · 21st January 2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there.

(i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.)

Yes, and all they had to do to eventually get arrested was refuse to stop broadcasting direct evidence of their crimes to the whole world.

caveman1917 · 23rd January 2021, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred.

I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests.

CaptainHowdy · 23rd January 2021, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed.

Most people are not allergic to shrimp and those who are could just close thier mouths and not eat them. Everybody else would welcome shrimp bombs as a delicious appetizer to enjoy between burning buildings and assaulting innocent bystanders. If you want to trigger anaphylactic shock, Africanized killer bees would a more effective weapon. They would trigger anaphylactic shock among the peaceful protestors who are allergic to bees but even if you're not allergic to their venom, being stung in and of itself is not a lot of fun. Additionally, because the killer bees have been africanized, they have that jungle fury which makes them alot more aggressive.

HoverBoarder · 24th January 2021, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.

That is a lot more true than many people either fail to, or choose not to realize.

The reality is that if we actually want to deal with the violent extremists on both sides, than it is the moderates that hold the key to stopping it.

In all of the cases, the violence occurred because the moderates allowed it to. Either by pushing false conspiracy theories that riled up the Trump extremists, or covering for the violence in the name of BLM by refusing to condemn the incitement and acts for violence.

While the violence from the Anarchists and Right wing extremists certainly takes the headlines, the ringleaders are behind the scenes. If we want to really address it, that is where the focus needs to be.

In Portland and Seattle, the primary instigators are not the most violent Anarchists who have engaged in large acts of violence and attempted murder, it is the rogue prosecuting officers that have actively set policies to give immunity to the vast majority of the acts of violence, and encourage it to continue.

On the right, it is all of the people who played up the knowingly false conspiracies to use for their own benefit.

Since it is the moderates who hold the key to stopping the violence. The most important step is to convince both sides that the violence from their side is damaging enough to their causes for them to take serious steps to address and stop it.

HoverBoarder · 24th January 2021, 02:00 PM

One very effective solution to a breakdown of prosecuting officers that do not convict people for the violence the carry out is to Federally deputize police. When you have a prosecuting office that is no longer functioning, and actively encouraging the violence to continue, getting one that does is a great way to address it.

HoverBoarder · 24th January 2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests.

Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?

A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime.

Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM.

Mumbles · 24th January 2021, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?

I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do.

Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress.

johnny karate · 24th January 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?

A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime.

Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM.

And what about when police instigate and escalate violence at otherwise peaceful protests? How should that be handled?

dirtywick · 24th January 2021, 07:24 PM

occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class.

johnny karate · 24th January 2021, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class.

And yet it is. We are told violent protests should not be tolerated, and yet over and over again we see police instigating and escalating violence at these protests with total impunity.

I’m curious what the advocates of total non-violence who demand perfect behavior from protesters recommend should be done about that.

dirtywick · 24th January 2021, 07:40 PM

i don’t really have any ideas. the police have abused public trust at a national level for a very long time. simply holding them accountable is being taken as an attack against them, and I don’t know why people are falling for that narrative but the widespread defense against indefensible behavior is enabling them to push it.

portlandatheist · 24th January 2021, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do.

Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress.

Absolutely they are completely different. 100% agree but somehow you keep imagining people are saying they are the same when they are not saying they are the same.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th January 2021, 05:48 AM

Mayor Ted "Tear Gas" Wheeler really leaning into the name, pepper sprayed an unarmed man that heckled him when leaving a restaurant.

Wheeler originally put out a statement that the man was menacing him and that he warned his assailant before using pepper spray.

Wheeler was with former mayor Sam Adams, who managed to record audio of the encounter. It reveals that the man speaking in a normal tone of voice criticized the pair for violating covid restrictions, and there was no warning from Wheeler about pepper spray.

While Wheeler characterizes this as menacing and an implied threat of violence, the audio of the incident makes it seem like Wheeler peppersprayed an unarmed person because he didn't like being criticized.

Sounds an awful lot like Wheeler made false statements in a police report in an effort to justify dubious use of force.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/2...was-a-witness/

SuburbanTurkey · 27th January 2021, 05:38 AM

A longer form article about the local environmental effects on the unprecedented, long term repeat use of chemical agents on the streets of Portland.

Quote:

Jungle Gyms and Grenades: Chemical Warfare in Portland and the Lasting Impacts at a Nearby School

https://alissa-azar.medium.com/jungl...l-76edf33fc5f1

Brainster · 27th January 2021, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

A longer form article about the local environmental effects on the unprecedented, long term repeat use of chemical agents on the streets of Portland.

https://alissa-azar.medium.com/jungl...l-76edf33fc5f1

So the Antifa-tards managed to screw up the environment too? Do tell!

SuburbanTurkey · 27th January 2021, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

So the Antifa-tards managed to screw up the environment too? Do tell!

I didn't realize Antifa had a large supply of tear gas grenades. They're more sophisticated than I had previously thought.

portlandatheist · 27th January 2021, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Mayor Ted "Tear Gas" Wheeler really leaning into the name, pepper sprayed an unarmed man that heckled him when leaving a restaurant.

Wheeler originally put out a statement that the man was menacing him and that he warned his assailant before using pepper spray.

Wheeler was with former mayor Sam Adams, who managed to record audio of the encounter. It reveals that the man speaking in a normal tone of voice criticized the pair for violating covid restrictions, and there was no warning from Wheeler about pepper spray.

While Wheeler characterizes this as menacing and an implied threat of violence, the audio of the incident makes it seem like Wheeler peppersprayed an unarmed person because he didn't like being criticized.

Sounds an awful lot like Wheeler made false statements in a police report in an effort to justify dubious use of force.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/2...was-a-witness/

Cary Cadonau, the person bullying Ted Wheeler has apologized for his actions saying "I am remorseful for my decision to confront Mayor Wheeler on Sunday, Jan. 24, and I am sorry he felt the need to use pepper spray"

Cary Cadonau is a bully and douche bag

19th January 2021, 03:25 PM	#2401
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Originally Posted by Steve When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize. Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election. It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

19th January 2021, 03:31 PM	#2402
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election. It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things. Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

19th January 2021, 04:00 PM	#2403
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Originally Posted by Steve Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far? I would say that the BLM summer has had partial success, but success nonetheless. Certainly more than if they minded their manners and didn't bother anyone.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 19th January 2021 at 04:07 PM.

20th January 2021, 09:16 AM	#2404
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,524	Originally Posted by Steve Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far? It's all about the "good trouble", I guess.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

20th January 2021, 11:30 AM	#2405
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 14,812	Originally Posted by Steve When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize. It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side. Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence. Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

20th January 2021, 11:35 AM	#2406
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side. Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence. Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics. Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection. Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying.

20th January 2021, 11:38 AM	#2407
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 14,812	Originally Posted by johnny karate Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection. Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying. Different beliefs, same behaviors. The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

20th January 2021, 12:32 PM	#2408
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Different beliefs, same behaviors. The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist. No, a violent coup is most decidedly a “different behavior”. Equating it with rioting and looting minimizes the seriousness of it, and reads as apologist sophistry for right wing terrorism.

20th January 2021, 12:47 PM	#2409
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one. I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad. ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information? Last edited by Meadmaker; 20th January 2021 at 12:49 PM.

20th January 2021, 01:03 PM	#2410
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one. I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad. ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful. The methods aren’t equally bad because they aren’t equal methods. Any bothsider who wants to be taken even remotely seriously needs to acknowledge this very obvious fact.

20th January 2021, 01:27 PM	#2411
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one. I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad. ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful. Mostly agreed. I think there's a difference between an incorrect cause and a "bad" cause. And I'd say what makes a bad cause is partly that is at least carries a high risk of a harmful action. If we could have been totally confident that the people who believed the election was stolen and Pence was capable of doing anything about it would stop at waving signs and that would be the end of it, then it would be sad and incorrect but that would be all. There are legitimate and illegitimate grievances and either can lead to destructive actions. But an illegitimate greivance that doesn't carry a real risk of bad action has mostly its believers as victims.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,534	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

20th January 2021, 02:18 PM	#2412
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,872	Originally Posted by Bogative How about the 50+ secret service agents who were injured during the antifa/BLM riots at the White House this summer. The same riots that involved multiple fires, Molotov cocktails, fireworks, bricks and glass bottles that were used against law enforcement? I seem to recall one of those involving the Secret Service forcing the president into an underground bunker at the White House to which members on this board celebrated. Or do those riots not count for reasons? So you're not dead, but back to peddle Trumpist "whataboutism'....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

20th January 2021, 05:16 PM	#2413
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one. I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad. ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful. THe obvious further problem - much of the violence we saw from "BLM protests" fell into three categories: 1 - the destitute/very young, people happy to destroy for it's own sake or loot out of need. 2 - the police, who we saw beating veterans, knocking over the elderly, teargassing people they kettled, etc. 3 - Boogalo Boys and other assorted nationalists happy to attack whoever. Had the insurrectionists at the Capitol been wearing black hoodies and face masks and so forth, I'd have considered the idea that they were actually Black Bloc anarchists. Instead, we got muppets snitching on themselves on social media, Dances with Karens with his goofball outfit, the desert dish from the Unite the Right rally, and so forth, all happily explaining that they were doing it because Toupee Fiasco wanted them to. At the same time...yes, lots of people went to protest/see Orange Badman without any violence at all. I won't say I'm fine with it, he was a terrible excuse for a president, but I'm fine with their behavior.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430

21st January 2021, 06:26 AM	#2414
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way. Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights. https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...65024039485446 Feds blanketed the streets with gas again.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 06:28 AM.

21st January 2021, 06:31 AM	#2415
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st January 2021, 06:34 AM	#2416
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish? It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past. https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696 There is currently a civil suit filed against the city asking for an injunction of this particular tactic. https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...Complaint.html In this particular case, it was someone else they injured.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 06:35 AM.

21st January 2021, 06:35 AM	#2417
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past. https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696 In this particular case, it was someone else they injured. I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

21st January 2021, 06:41 AM	#2418
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	These are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now. Let's see if he reins them in.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

21st January 2021, 08:57 AM	#2419
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way. Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights. https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...65024039485446 Feds blanketed the streets with gas again. Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home.

21st January 2021, 09:15 AM	#2420
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey These Which "these" exactly? Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now. When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task? (Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?) Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Let's see if he reins them in. For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

21st January 2021, 09:33 AM	#2421
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,014	Originally Posted by Steve Which "these" exactly? When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task? (Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?) For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power. They are federal police. ICE agents. POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch. I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency. Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 09:46 AM.

21st January 2021, 12:47 PM	#2422
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Originally Posted by johnny karate Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home. Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there. (i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.)
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

21st January 2021, 12:53 PM	#2423
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey They are federal police. ICE agents. POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch. I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency. Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics. Your edit is reasonable. Unfortunately it makes the entirety of your post that I quoted unreasonable and unnecessary.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

21st January 2021, 05:56 PM	#2424
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there. (i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.) Yes, and all they had to do to eventually get arrested was refuse to stop broadcasting direct evidence of their crimes to the whole world.

23rd January 2021, 05:45 AM	#2425
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,874	Originally Posted by Meadmaker The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,874	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

23rd January 2021, 10:17 PM	#2426
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,655	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed. Most people are not allergic to shrimp and those who are could just close thier mouths and not eat them. Everybody else would welcome shrimp bombs as a delicious appetizer to enjoy between burning buildings and assaulting innocent bystanders. If you want to trigger anaphylactic shock, Africanized killer bees would a more effective weapon. They would trigger anaphylactic shock among the peaceful protestors who are allergic to bees but even if you're not allergic to their venom, being stung in and of itself is not a lot of fun. Additionally, because the killer bees have been africanized, they have that jungle fury which makes them alot more aggressive.

24th January 2021, 01:55 PM	#2427
HoverBoarder Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,570	Originally Posted by Steve When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize. That is a lot more true than many people either fail to, or choose not to realize. The reality is that if we actually want to deal with the violent extremists on both sides, than it is the moderates that hold the key to stopping it. In all of the cases, the violence occurred because the moderates allowed it to. Either by pushing false conspiracy theories that riled up the Trump extremists, or covering for the violence in the name of BLM by refusing to condemn the incitement and acts for violence. While the violence from the Anarchists and Right wing extremists certainly takes the headlines, the ringleaders are behind the scenes. If we want to really address it, that is where the focus needs to be. In Portland and Seattle, the primary instigators are not the most violent Anarchists who have engaged in large acts of violence and attempted murder, it is the rogue prosecuting officers that have actively set policies to give immunity to the vast majority of the acts of violence, and encourage it to continue. On the right, it is all of the people who played up the knowingly false conspiracies to use for their own benefit. Since it is the moderates who hold the key to stopping the violence. The most important step is to convince both sides that the violence from their side is damaging enough to their causes for them to take serious steps to address and stop it.

24th January 2021, 02:00 PM	#2428
HoverBoarder Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,570	One very effective solution to a breakdown of prosecuting officers that do not convict people for the violence the carry out is to Federally deputize police. When you have a prosecuting office that is no longer functioning, and actively encouraging the violence to continue, getting one that does is a great way to address it.

24th January 2021, 02:07 PM	#2429
HoverBoarder Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,570	Originally Posted by caveman1917 I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests. Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy? A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime. Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM.

24th January 2021, 04:04 PM	#2430
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430	Originally Posted by HoverBoarder Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy? I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do. Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,430

24th January 2021, 07:15 PM	#2431
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by HoverBoarder Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy? A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime. Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM. And what about when police instigate and escalate violence at otherwise peaceful protests? How should that be handled?

24th January 2021, 07:24 PM	#2432
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130	occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130

24th January 2021, 07:30 PM	#2433
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,568	Originally Posted by dirtywick occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class. And yet it is. We are told violent protests should not be tolerated, and yet over and over again we see police instigating and escalating violence at these protests with total impunity. I’m curious what the advocates of total non-violence who demand perfect behavior from protesters recommend should be done about that.

24th January 2021, 07:40 PM	#2434
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130	i don’t really have any ideas. the police have abused public trust at a national level for a very long time. simply holding them accountable is being taken as an attack against them, and I don’t know why people are falling for that narrative but the widespread defense against indefensible behavior is enabling them to push it.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130

24th January 2021, 08:02 PM	#2435
portlandatheist Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,612	Originally Posted by Mumbles I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do. Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress. Absolutely they are completely different. 100% agree but somehow you keep imagining people are saying they are the same when they are not saying they are the same.