IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags protest incidents , protest issues , Seattle incidents

Reply
Old 19th January 2021, 03:25 PM   #2401
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.
Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election.

It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 03:31 PM   #2402
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,423
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, a riot protesting murders by unaccountable police officers is basically the same and storming the capitol to overturn the results of a free and fair election.

It's actually impossible to tell the difference between good and bad things.
Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 04:00 PM   #2403
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?
I would say that the BLM summer has had partial success, but success nonetheless. Certainly more than if they minded their manners and didn't bother anyone.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 19th January 2021 at 04:07 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 09:16 AM   #2404
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,524
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Seems to me that all the rioters, looters and vandals down there thought they were doing the "good" thing. And that the riots looting and vandalism would get them what they want. How is that working so far?
It's all about the "good trouble", I guess.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 11:30 AM   #2405
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,812
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.
It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side.

Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence.

Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 11:35 AM   #2406
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's a circle. They go farther and farther out until they meet at the other side.

Each side firmly believes that what they are doing is righteous and justified, and that the collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders is a necessary evil in their holy quest for the greater good. They're all convinced that the other side is filled with evil malefactors intent on undermining everything good in the US, and that the only way to overcome that existential threat is with violence.

Anybody who thinks they should all start acting like responsible adults with a modicum of compassion for others are heretics.
Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection.

Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 11:38 AM   #2407
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,812
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Only one side attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election with violent insurrection.

Peddle your bothsidesism elsewhere. No one here is buying.
Different beliefs, same behaviors.

The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 12:32 PM   #2408
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Different beliefs, same behaviors.

The true believers never buy that another person's faith is valid. And all adherents to faith abhor the atheist.
No, a violent coup is most decidedly a “different behavior”.

Equating it with rioting and looting minimizes the seriousness of it, and reads as apologist sophistry for right wing terrorism.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 12:47 PM   #2409
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,276
Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 20th January 2021 at 12:49 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 01:03 PM   #2410
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.
The methods aren’t equally bad because they aren’t equal methods.

Any bothsider who wants to be taken even remotely seriously needs to acknowledge this very obvious fact.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 01:27 PM   #2411
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,534
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.
Mostly agreed.
I think there's a difference between an incorrect cause and a "bad" cause. And I'd say what makes a bad cause is partly that is at least carries a high risk of a harmful action.

If we could have been totally confident that the people who believed the election was stolen and Pence was capable of doing anything about it would stop at waving signs and that would be the end of it, then it would be sad and incorrect but that would be all.

There are legitimate and illegitimate grievances and either can lead to destructive actions. But an illegitimate greivance that doesn't carry a real risk of bad action has mostly its believers as victims.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 02:18 PM   #2412
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,872
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about the 50+ secret service agents who were injured during the antifa/BLM riots at the White House this summer. The same riots that involved multiple fires, Molotov cocktails, fireworks, bricks and glass bottles that were used against law enforcement? I seem to recall one of those involving the Secret Service forcing the president into an underground bunker at the White House to which members on this board celebrated. Or do those riots not count for reasons?
So you're not dead, but back to peddle Trumpist "whataboutism'....
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 05:16 PM   #2413
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,430
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Violence doesn't turn a good cause into a bad one, or a bad cause into a good one.

I think all of the violence that has rattled the nation in the last year has been bad, and we can denounce all of it, but denouncing the violence doesn't say anything about the cause. We can't create some sort of moral equivalence in the cause if we find some the methods equally bad.

ETA: Let me be more explicit. The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred. The Capitol putsch protests were in a bad cause, and it would have been bad even if it had remained peaceful.
THe obvious further problem - much of the violence we saw from "BLM protests" fell into three categories:

1 - the destitute/very young, people happy to destroy for it's own sake or loot out of need.

2 - the police, who we saw beating veterans, knocking over the elderly, teargassing people they kettled, etc.

3 - Boogalo Boys and other assorted nationalists happy to attack whoever.

Had the insurrectionists at the Capitol been wearing black hoodies and face masks and so forth, I'd have considered the idea that they were actually Black Bloc anarchists. Instead, we got muppets snitching on themselves on social media, Dances with Karens with his goofball outfit, the desert dish from the Unite the Right rally, and so forth, all happily explaining that they were doing it because Toupee Fiasco wanted them to.

At the same time...yes, lots of people went to protest/see Orange Badman without any violence at all. I won't say I'm fine with it, he was a terrible excuse for a president, but I'm fine with their behavior.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 06:26 AM   #2414
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way.

Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights.


Feds blanketed the streets with gas again.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 06:28 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 06:31 AM   #2415
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,461
Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 06:34 AM   #2416
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Up next Shrimp bombs to target those allergic to shellfish?
It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past.

https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696


There is currently a civil suit filed against the city asking for an injunction of this particular tactic.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...Complaint.html

In this particular case, it was someone else they injured.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 06:35 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 06:35 AM   #2417
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,461
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It is likely intentional. The reporter linked above, Melissa Lewis, is a fixture as a journalist covering the protests in the area. Police know she is an epileptic and intentionally induced a seizure for her in the past.

https://twitter.com/Claudio_Report/s...86854961053696


In this particular case, it was someone else they injured.
I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 06:41 AM   #2418
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
These are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now. Let's see if he reins them in.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 08:57 AM   #2419
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Federal police in Portland induce seizure in protestor by using a strobe light. Usually this is a tactic used by Proud Boys or other fascists in the area that discovered they could injure epileptic protestors this way.

Spoiler tagged because video shows rapid strobing lights.


Feds blanketed the streets with gas again.
Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 09:15 AM   #2420
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,423
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
These
Which "these" exactly?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
are Biden's thugs brutalizing people in the streets of Portland now.
When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task?

(Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?)

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Let's see if he reins them in.
For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 09:33 AM   #2421
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Which "these" exactly?



When and by what method did Biden assign them to this task?

(Was it one of yesterday's executive orders, perhaps?)



For a supposed American you have little concept of the limits of the POTUS's power.
They are federal police. ICE agents.

POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch.

I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency.

Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st January 2021 at 09:46 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 12:47 PM   #2422
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,276
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Feels like this would be a good time to remind people that the violent insurrections who invaded the Capitol were gently escorted from the crime scene and allowed to go home.
Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there.

(i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.)
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 12:53 PM   #2423
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,423
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
They are federal police. ICE agents.

POTUS might have limited powers, but the tactics and deployment of federal police are 100% controlled within the executive branch.

I don't understand what you mean here. The federal police report through the executive branch, with the top of their command chain ending at the Presidency.

Edit: I don't blame Biden for last night's police brutality, it was literally the night of his inauguration. But it's not unreasonable to expect a response from him since these cops, who now report to him, seem to believe they can continue with their Trump era jackbooted tactics.
Your edit is reasonable. Unfortunately it makes the entirety of your post that I quoted unreasonable and unnecessary.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 05:56 PM   #2424
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Although, to be fair, quite a few of them were not allowed to stay there.

(i.e. they went home, but they ended up in jail a week later.)
Yes, and all they had to do to eventually get arrested was refuse to stop broadcasting direct evidence of their crimes to the whole world.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 05:45 AM   #2425
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,874
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The BLM protests were in a good cause, but we should denounce the violence that occurred.
I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 10:17 PM   #2426
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,655
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I was being serious, shrimp bombs to trigger anaphylactic shock seem very much police speed.
Most people are not allergic to shrimp and those who are could just close thier mouths and not eat them. Everybody else would welcome shrimp bombs as a delicious appetizer to enjoy between burning buildings and assaulting innocent bystanders. If you want to trigger anaphylactic shock, Africanized killer bees would a more effective weapon. They would trigger anaphylactic shock among the peaceful protestors who are allergic to bees but even if you're not allergic to their venom, being stung in and of itself is not a lot of fun. Additionally, because the killer bees have been africanized, they have that jungle fury which makes them alot more aggressive.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 01:55 PM   #2427
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,570
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
When this thread started it was all about rioting looting and vandalism by the left. 6 months later it is all about rioting looting and vandalism by the right. Seems that in the USA violence is seen as the way to get what you want. Maybe your political extremes have more in common than you realize.
That is a lot more true than many people either fail to, or choose not to realize.

The reality is that if we actually want to deal with the violent extremists on both sides, than it is the moderates that hold the key to stopping it.

In all of the cases, the violence occurred because the moderates allowed it to. Either by pushing false conspiracy theories that riled up the Trump extremists, or covering for the violence in the name of BLM by refusing to condemn the incitement and acts for violence.

While the violence from the Anarchists and Right wing extremists certainly takes the headlines, the ringleaders are behind the scenes. If we want to really address it, that is where the focus needs to be.

In Portland and Seattle, the primary instigators are not the most violent Anarchists who have engaged in large acts of violence and attempted murder, it is the rogue prosecuting officers that have actively set policies to give immunity to the vast majority of the acts of violence, and encourage it to continue.

On the right, it is all of the people who played up the knowingly false conspiracies to use for their own benefit.

Since it is the moderates who hold the key to stopping the violence. The most important step is to convince both sides that the violence from their side is damaging enough to their causes for them to take serious steps to address and stop it.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 02:00 PM   #2428
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,570
One very effective solution to a breakdown of prosecuting officers that do not convict people for the violence the carry out is to Federally deputize police. When you have a prosecuting office that is no longer functioning, and actively encouraging the violence to continue, getting one that does is a great way to address it.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 02:07 PM   #2429
HoverBoarder
Graduate Poster
 
HoverBoarder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,570
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I think plenty of people have been denouncing the police violence that occurred during the BLM protests.
Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?

A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime.

Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM.
HoverBoarder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 04:04 PM   #2430
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,430
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?
I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do.

Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 07:15 PM   #2431
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Do you think that violence against police, or against innocent people in the community is an effective strategy?

A fair amount of the violence against the police during some of the BLM protests meets every definition of a hate crime. Some states have taken steps to protect their police from vicious attacks by defining those attacks as a hate crime.

Because of the damage that the violent extremists on the left have done to the BLM cause, it should be in everyone's interest, but especially the interests of the supporters of the BLM cause like myself, to try to address and stop the people who carry out attacks of violence in the name of BLM.
And what about when police instigate and escalate violence at otherwise peaceful protests? How should that be handled?
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 07:24 PM   #2432
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,130
occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 07:30 PM   #2433
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,568
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
occupation isn’t and shouldn’t be a protected class.
And yet it is. We are told violent protests should not be tolerated, and yet over and over again we see police instigating and escalating violence at these protests with total impunity.

I’m curious what the advocates of total non-violence who demand perfect behavior from protesters recommend should be done about that.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 07:40 PM   #2434
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,130
i don’t really have any ideas. the police have abused public trust at a national level for a very long time. simply holding them accountable is being taken as an attack against them, and I don’t know why people are falling for that narrative but the widespread defense against indefensible behavior is enabling them to push it.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 08:02 PM   #2435
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,612
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I mean, groups like BLM have outright tossed potentially violent people out of their organizations, denounced violence that they're accused of even when there's no connection at all, warned police, and placed themselves between dangerous people and stranded police and abandoned stores, so...don't know what more you want them to do.

Seems kinda different than the guys who posted online about how they want to kill congresspeople, bashed their way into the Capitol, chanted about killing the VP, set up gallows outside congress, brought weapons and flexcuffs into congress, and physically attacked multiple people while breaking into congress.
Absolutely they are completely different. 100% agree but somehow you keep imagining people are saying they are the same when they are not saying they are the same.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2021, 05:48 AM   #2436
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Mayor Ted "Tear Gas" Wheeler really leaning into the name, pepper sprayed an unarmed man that heckled him when leaving a restaurant.

Wheeler originally put out a statement that the man was menacing him and that he warned his assailant before using pepper spray.

Wheeler was with former mayor Sam Adams, who managed to record audio of the encounter. It reveals that the man speaking in a normal tone of voice criticized the pair for violating covid restrictions, and there was no warning from Wheeler about pepper spray.

While Wheeler characterizes this as menacing and an implied threat of violence, the audio of the incident makes it seem like Wheeler peppersprayed an unarmed person because he didn't like being criticized.

Sounds an awful lot like Wheeler made false statements in a police report in an effort to justify dubious use of force.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/2...was-a-witness/
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 05:38 AM   #2437
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
A longer form article about the local environmental effects on the unprecedented, long term repeat use of chemical agents on the streets of Portland.

Quote:
Jungle Gyms and Grenades: Chemical Warfare in Portland and the Lasting Impacts at a Nearby School
https://alissa-azar.medium.com/jungl...l-76edf33fc5f1
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 07:08 AM   #2438
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,319
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A longer form article about the local environmental effects on the unprecedented, long term repeat use of chemical agents on the streets of Portland.



https://alissa-azar.medium.com/jungl...l-76edf33fc5f1
So the Antifa-tards managed to screw up the environment too? Do tell!
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 07:18 AM   #2439
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,014
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So the Antifa-tards managed to screw up the environment too? Do tell!
I didn't realize Antifa had a large supply of tear gas grenades. They're more sophisticated than I had previously thought.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2021, 08:09 PM   #2440
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,612
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mayor Ted "Tear Gas" Wheeler really leaning into the name, pepper sprayed an unarmed man that heckled him when leaving a restaurant.

Wheeler originally put out a statement that the man was menacing him and that he warned his assailant before using pepper spray.

Wheeler was with former mayor Sam Adams, who managed to record audio of the encounter. It reveals that the man speaking in a normal tone of voice criticized the pair for violating covid restrictions, and there was no warning from Wheeler about pepper spray.

While Wheeler characterizes this as menacing and an implied threat of violence, the audio of the incident makes it seem like Wheeler peppersprayed an unarmed person because he didn't like being criticized.

Sounds an awful lot like Wheeler made false statements in a police report in an effort to justify dubious use of force.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/2...was-a-witness/
Cary Cadonau, the person bullying Ted Wheeler has apologized for his actions saying "I am remorseful for my decision to confront Mayor Wheeler on Sunday, Jan. 24, and I am sorry he felt the need to use pepper spray"

Cary Cadonau is a bully and douche bag
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.