Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[SuburbanTurkey]

It's the white moderate trolley problem. A trolley is coming towards a group of people on the tracks. It can be safely diverted, but you have to break a shopfront window to reach the lever. What do you do? You do nothing and complain about the broken glass when someone with a conscience breaks the window. You put cops on the next window to ensure it doesn't happen again, and shed solemn tears as trolleys splatter people 3 times a day.

History is littered with examples that meaningful reform doesn't come peacefully and orderly. That's an ugly fact, but there it is.

If enlightened centrists cared half as much about the multigenerational oppression of poor black communities by the police state as they do about an Amazon storefront getting cleaned out by looters, we wouldn't have this problem.

[Puppycow]

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

A general sense of disorder forces a complacent society to address systematic problems.

People holding signs, marching with a permit, and standing in a free speech zone 3 miles away from anything important don't change things.

Wine moms tasting tear gas on live TV changes things. Watching people get bones broken by the Gestapo for "unlawful assembly" changes things.

No justice, no peace. I hope the riots continue until the cops are forced to stand down.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It's the white moderate trolley problem. A trolley is coming towards a group of people on the tracks. It can be safely diverted, but you have to break a shopfront window to reach the lever. What do you do? You do nothing and complain about the broken glass when someone with a conscience breaks the window. You put cops on the next window to ensure it doesn't happen again, and shed solemn tears as trolleys splatter people 3 times a day.

That may be the dumbest analogy I have ever heard.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I would happily break a store window to save a life, the problem is I don't believe that there's a magic lever on the other side of that window to pull that will result in that.

In fact, the lever we are supposed to pull will end in more deaths, as it diverts the trolley into a larger group of minorities.

[SuburbanTurkey]

I don't think the looting is directly necessary for reform.

My point is that sustained public protest, including raucous, unlawful assembly in violation of curfew or police orders, is necessary. An unintended consequence of this is that it creates an environment in which opportunistic looters can take advantage. That isn't the goal of the protests, and people protesting might not want it to happen, but it's happening.

It's unrealistic, and I suspect often in bad faith, to demand that protests perfectly thread the needle to be both effective and orderly.

Looting isn't a good reason to oppose protests and side with the cops that are beating the snot out of people demanding change.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I don't think the looting is directly necessary for reform.

My point is that sustained public protest, including raucous, unlawful assembly in violation of curfew or police orders, is necessary. An unintended consequence of this is that it creates an environment in which opportunistic looters can take advantage. That isn't the goal of the protests, and people protesting might not want it to happen, but it's happening.

It's unrealistic, and I suspect often in bad faith, to demand that protests perfectly thread the needle to be both effective and orderly.

Looting isn't a good reason to oppose protests and side with the cops that are beating the snot out of people demanding change.

You're not pro-looting, you're anti-anti-looting?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Brainster

You're not pro-looting, you're anti-anti-looting?

I'm anti "pretext for cops to suppress a popular uprising".

If the city can prevent the looting without jackboot tactics, by all means. Seems that all their solutions seem to be that protesters should stay home and shut up, which is unacceptable.

[BobTheCoward]

Monopoly analogy

It is like finding out the banker has been cheating against you the whole game, and then all the other players say that it will be by the rules from here out and keep playing.

Don't be surprised if someone flips the board.

[HoverBoarder]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

A general sense of disorder forces a complacent society to address systematic problems.

People holding signs, marching with a permit, and standing in a free speech zone 3 miles away from anything important don't change things.

Wine moms tasting tear gas on live TV changes things. Watching people get bones broken by the Gestapo for "unlawful assembly" changes things.

No justice, no peace. I hope the riots continue until the cops are forced to stand down.

It's definitely starting to get violent, and people are more and more people have definitely been injured and some have died since the protests started. The thing is that the huge vast majority of protesters have been peaceful, and a small minority have been violent.

It's not just windows, but actual lives that have been destroyed. This is a critical time, and I would hope that their deaths mean something, but from what I have seen, the violence from protesters drives many of the peaceful protesters away. In Seattle and other cities at least it did the tens of thousands of people dwindled to a few hundred once the major violence started. They started their own protests, and you had black leaders protesting for an end to the violence who in some cities were attacked by the violent ones.

There were people with families, elderly, and just regular people who are passionate and committed to standing up for real change who will not come out to protest when the violent protesters try to take over the movement and message.


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...h2u-story.html

Quote:

“What began as a peaceful protest at Grant Park Friday evening devolved into a very dangerous situation in which mob action deliberately sought to injure officers, provoke retaliation and damage property. Forty-nine Chicago police officers were injured. Forty-nine,” Brown said. “Eighteen of whom were sent to area hospitals for their injuries.”

The morning police news conference began with overhead video taken by city cameras, in an effort to show that some in the crowd of thousands that had marched toward the Columbus statue in Grant Park had planned an attack on police officers. It appeared at least a dozen people used umbrellas to shield people in the crowd who changed into all black clothing; distributed frozen water bottles, rocks, and explosive devices that were thrown at officers; and used sharpened PVC pipe as a weapon, O’Shea said.

“I want to point out that we’ve had multiple protests at the statue prior to this event that were all peaceful, and we respected everyone’s First Amendment right to protest peacefully, but this was not — what you’re seeing here is obviously an ambush on police officers,” O’Shea said...

“These peaceful protests have been hijacked and that’s one of the things I think people need to consider,” he said.

When asked whether the police investigation has shown that the protest organizers were working with the agitators, Brown said, saying: “God I hope not. But it sure looks like it.”

The protests are quickly taking a dark side, and people are increasingly having to choose between supporting or opposing the violence. That will both turn some formerly peaceful protesters violent, and turn some peaceful protesters against the violence on both sides.

It certainly deludes the message.

[HoverBoarder]

"Under policing" was once determined to be a tremendously racist policy that caused there to be fewer police in an area, and it led to many unnecessary deaths.

Today that is a policy that is being adapted as a demand of the BLM movement as part of the "defund the police" mantra even though we have seen the negative affects of it play out many times before.

In LA and New York they have already moved to reduce the police, and there is a tragic increase in unnecessary death that has resulted because of that. It's a trendy and 'hip' phrase with tragic consequences.

In Seattle, there is a veto proof majority of the Seattle city council to cut 50% of the police force with no real plan on what to do after that. Gun sales are surging Nationally, and in the stores around me, people are waiting in long lines to buy guns. We have seen what happens when poorly though out plans like this are implemented without any plans on what to do to stem the violence.

People have seen this experiment happen time and time again, and it has suddenly become popular to not think about the consequences or the past affects of those actions. Many are arming themselves and getting ready for the violence and death that they are seeing playing out right now.


The tragedy of George Floyd was a terrible event, but it did provide the opportunity for real and meaningful change to the problem of Systemic racism. Many in the movement are rejecting real and meaningful change in support of a lot of unnecessary dead people instead.

That, is a real tragedy far greater than the death of George Floyd.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rs/5470348002/

That's a different city, different group, whole different set of circumstances and they are protecting protesters, not a group swinging bats that arrived in Seattle later than and separately from the protesters.

But this conflation shows Trump's propaganda is sinking in.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

"Under policing" was once determined to be a tremendously racist policy that caused there to be fewer police in an area, and it led to many unnecessary deaths.

These types of issues seem to swing from one side to the other like a pendulum. If the cops police too aggressively, citizen complaints (some legit) go up. If they don't police aggressively enough, crime goes up. It seems obvious to me that the cops are going to police a whole lot less aggressively in the major cities that have been hit by the demonstrations and riots, particularly in places like Seattle and Portland, where the elected leaders have undercut any effort by the police to restore order.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by rdwight

Why bother quoting me if you are not going to address anything at all I am talking about? I mean, do you.. but I don't get it.

I was addressing what you posted.

Originally Posted by rdwight

It seems like a play on language going on a bit here. When they talk about 'violent protests', they seem to be talking about violent revolutions. Do you think this is deliberate?

Who's "they"? So the dog whistle means protests to some and revolution to others.

Yes, Trump has been calling protests with a couple hundred to a couple 1000 people on a couple streets taking over a city of 750,000+ (Seattle not counting all the connected suburbs) or Portland (665,000)

Originally Posted by rdwight

[snipped to get to the point]
But it feels like it is becoming the same thing when reference peaceful protests and accepting at a minimum or advocating to an extent for more extreme measures. You can peacefully protest and disrupt to a huge extent. Constant, disruptive protests can inconvenience people without physically harming them. You can disrupt normal life, causing people to not only be aware of but have to address your complaints. I guess they are trying to speed up the process through escalation, but that can definitely backfire.

First off, the protests had been dying down here in Seattle, there was a small protest march invaded by an even smaller group of window smashers.

Portland's protests were also small and getting smaller until federal agents moved in to start violently opposing the protesters. People came out to protest for a new cause: oppose the secret police.

What you describe was not happening. Protests were not "escalating". They stopped blocking the freeways and attempts to block onramps/offramps were stopped by the police.

What I said did address your post. What you describe might be the theoretical experience with protests. Are you suggesting protesters started a guerrilla war?

That's absurd.

I suspect you don't live in Portland or Seattle.


Edited to add: The news is reporting they believe the bat wielding group were related to a Portland group. There has been a small group of declared "anarchists" showing up at past protests like the WTO protests. They like to break windows. Few if any people want them here and they certainly aren't a welcome part of the protesters.

People often latch onto protests with their own causes as if it makes the protest about their cause. It ruins protests, they aren't wanted and sometimes they get blocked sometimes they don't.

The only cause they serve is giving fuel to people opposing the protesters. It's possible the anarchists expect to start a revolution like T McVeigh though blowing up the Murrow building would start a revolution.

[carlitos]

The ******** attacking police in Chicago aren't doing so because of Trump's propaganda. Bringing that up in the context of a general discussion on riots isn't "conflating" anything.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by carlitos

The ******** attacking police in Chicago aren't doing so because of Trump's propaganda. Bringing that up in the context of a general discussion on riots isn't "conflating" anything.

Of course not. Protesters are not Trump's target market.

[HoverBoarder]

Originally Posted by Brainster

These types of issues seem to swing from one side to the other like a pendulum. If the cops police too aggressively, citizen complaints (some legit) go up. If they don't police aggressively enough, crime goes up. It seems obvious to me that the cops are going to police a whole lot less aggressively in the major cities that have been hit by the demonstrations and riots, particularly in places like Seattle and Portland, where the elected leaders have undercut any effort by the police to restore order.

The really ironic thing, is that I don't think that many of the white protesters and politicians who support policies like these realize how incredibly racist they are being towards black people.


They can be incredibly 'woke,' and follow the tenets of the anti "whiteness" doctrines of White Fragility. They destroy stores (some of whom are black owned), destroy people's lives, and can feel incredibly vindicated when telling police officers that they should kill themselves. However, the reality is that all of those actions are completely self serving.

If their only legacy from those actions is that they have destroyed a lot of things, and create policies that kill hundreds or thousands of black people who did not have to die, than they are no better than the KKK members who outright state that as their goal. In fact, they likely will kill more black people than the whole KKK organization has done in its entire existence. The only real difference is that the KKK members are honest with themselves about their goals, and the results of their actions.

So far no amount of actions from Black leaders has been able to get them to stop. At CHOP in Seattle, the official BLM chapter members were shouted down and cursed at by largely white protesters for hijacking the Black Lives Matter movement message, and hindering their attempts to make real and lasting change for the black community.


The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I'm anti "pretext for cops to suppress a popular uprising".

If the city can prevent the looting without jackboot tactics, by all means. Seems that all their solutions seem to be that protesters should stay home and shut up, which is unacceptable.

I don't think that is true. Thousands and thousands of protesters have marched from Revolution Hall to Pioneer Square and have temporarily closed down the Burnside bridges and the Hawthorne bridges without any incident that I'm aware of. No arrests. The people at the Justice Center, including arsonists, have an agenda of WANTING confrontation with the police and CHOOSING a confrontation with the police. I've demonstrated many times in PDX and as long as things were peaceful, there was nobody forcing me to stay home and shut up and no need to have an unproductive stand off with the police.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

That is a major problem. People are more and more becoming entrenched in their corners, and not thinking through the implications of their actions or plans.

<snip>

Thank you for such a thoughtful perspective on what is going on. I'll watch the Converge Media interview when I get a chance.

[HoverBoarder]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Thank you for such a thoughtful perspective on what is going on. I'll watch the Converge Media interview when I get a chance.

Thank you for that comment, I think that you will find that it is an incredibly engaging conversation.

Converge Media also have a follow up video with Katrina Johnson, the cousin of the late Charleena Lyles who was killed by SPD in a mental health incident with SPD (a major name that is brought up a lot in the Seattle protests), as well as Nikkita Oliver who was a leading candidate for mayor, and has been a major advocate for reform for many years.

Some of the names may be local to Seattle, but the ideas and solutions that they talk about in these two shows are absolutely applicable for the entire Nation.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[SuburbanTurkey]

Edit: Moved to the other thread, more appropriate.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

One was holding a sign that said "Good Cops Quit".

Anecdotal evidence suggests that a lot of good cops do quit when they find their force's culture is toxic and entrenched.

Quote:

OK. I'm not trying to create anything, just trying to understand what is actually happening.
When you remarked that if there is an indictment, "antifa" would not be featured in the indictment.

It won't be, because antifa is not a thing. I'm sure there are people who like to associate themselves with the name, and it exists as a denizen of the demon-haunted right-wing world, but it's not a thing. Barr may even be investigating it but things don't need to be real for that.
The concept of "antifa" is redolent with violence, chaos, threat.

Quote:

Again, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening here.

A laudable objective : best not sound off too loudly before you're reasonably sure you do. That's been my experience, anyway.

Quote:

What are the motives of these people?

By "these people" you are presumably referring to "antifa and BLM" which is what you asked about. BLM is at least a cause, and not one redolent of violence. One might even call it a movement, which is a thing. But you are trying to conflate them. The matter of motives does come to mind. at that point.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That's a different city, different group, whole different set of circumstances and they are protecting protesters, not a group swinging bats that arrived in Seattle later than and separately from the protesters.
But this conflation shows Trump's propaganda is sinking in.

Indeed. Conflation is a tried and tested technique. Not that Trump himself is using the technique: rather, it's worked on him. He really believes that protest is insurrection.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I was addressing what you posted.
Who's "they"? So the dog whistle means protests to some and revolution to others.

Yes, Trump has been calling protests with a couple hundred to a couple 1000 people on a couple streets taking over a city of 750,000+ (Seattle not counting all the connected suburbs) or Portland (665,000)


First off, the protests had been dying down here in Seattle, there was a small protest march invaded by an even smaller group of window smashers.

Portland's protests were also small and getting smaller until federal agents moved in to start violently opposing the protesters. People came out to protest for a new cause: oppose the secret police.

Justifiably, of course. At the same time (and completely separately) it throws down a gauntlet to wannabe insurrectionaries far and wide. You'll be nobody in the anarchist world if you weren't in Portland '20. It'll be like not being in Paris '68 to my generation.



Thinking people can't expect intimidation to work against a mixture of youth, adrenalin and testosterone, but of course that's not the point.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

The 'Defund the Police' movement has been one of the most racist efforts by largely white protesters and politicians who refuse to look at the selfish, and tragically deadly affects of their actions.

It's the most disastrous slogan I've come across outside deliberate parody.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Justifiably, of course. At the same time (and completely separately) it throws down a gauntlet to wannabe insurrectionaries far and wide. You'll be nobody in the anarchist world if you weren't in Portland '20. It'll be like not being in Paris '68 to my generation.

Thinking people can't expect intimidation to work against a mixture of youth, adrenalin and testosterone, but of course that's not the point.

I'm not clear on the position you are taking here but Portland anarchists have been around for a couple decades. I don't think they are a growing threat.

Who else did you have in mind that Trump's gauntlet was supposedly effectively intimidating?

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm not clear on the position you are taking here but Portland anarchists have been around for a couple decades. I don't think they are a growing threat.

I'm thinking beyond Portland. Trump thinks he's going to intimidate the rioters (or, as he would put it, the protesters) but that's an invitation to anyone eager to earn their chops in the anarchist world with nothing going on at home.

Quote:

Who else did you have in mind that Trump's gauntlet was supposedly effectively intimidating?

I never suggested it was effective, but it's what Trump thinks his tough-guy talk will achieve. "A whiff of grapeshot will sort it out". Nasty fierce dogs with big teeth. Water-cannons and batons sweeping them off the streets, and they were all crying like little girls, yadda yadda.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

It won't be, because antifa is not a thing. I'm sure there are people who like to associate themselves with the name, and it exists as a denizen of the demon-haunted right-wing world, but it's not a thing. Barr may even be investigating it but things don't need to be real for that.

Really? It's not real?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Quote:

Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] is an anti-fascist political movement in the United States[2][3][4][5] comprising a diverse[6][7] array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both non-violent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform.[8][9][10][11] Antifa political activists engage in protest tactics such as digital activism and militancy[8][12] against fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other far-right extremists whom they seek to combat.[13] This may sometimes involve property damage, physical violence and harassment against those whom they identify as belonging to the far-right.[14][15][16][17]

Individuals involved in the movement tend to hold anti-authoritarian[18] and anti-capitalist views,[19] subscribing to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy and socialism.[20][21][22][23][24] Both the name antifa and the logo with two flags representing anarchism and communism are derived from the German Antifa movement.[25]

You believe that this movement doesn't exist?

What about this group in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Really? It's not real?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)


You believe that this movement doesn't exist?

How can I doubt wiki?

Quote:

... comprising a diverse[6][7] array of autonomous groups

Not a thing.

Quote:

What about this group in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Antifa

That's a particular group. If they're a cool group they'll have nothing to do with Rose City.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Not a thing.

What do you mean when you say "not a thing"?

Do you believe that racism is a thing?

For example.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What do you mean when you say "not a thing"?

Do you believe that racism is a thing?

For example.

It seems to be an article of faith around here that Antifa doesn't exist. I assume they mean it doesn't exist in the sense that it's not some organized group. Maybe they have the old cell-structure of the old communists?

ETA: Portland Mayor gets tear-gassed by Feds. And I agree with the protestors:

Quote:

The mayor has opposed federal agents’ presence in Oregon’s largest city, but he has faced harsh criticism from many sides and his presence wasn’t welcomed by many, who yelled and swore at him.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by Brainster

It seems to be an article of faith around here that Antifa doesn't exist. I assume they mean it doesn't exist in the sense that it's not some organized group. Maybe they have the old cell-structure of the old communists?

ETA: Portland Mayor gets tear-gassed by Feds. And I agree with the protestors:

I put them in the same bin as all of those alleged Bernie Bros who are going to vote for Trump to spite Biden. Once you subtract the hearsay, the false flag trolls, the baseless accusations, there's just not much left. The last I'm aware of any genuine antifa activities was Charlottesville three years ago, and that was in response to genuine fascism so it'd be where you'd expect anti-fascists to show up. Since then they've just been boogeymen for Fox News to blame everything on and not make their viewers ask themselves any tough questions.

Come to think of it I reach a similar conclusion reading the Historical Jesus thread. Somehow I don't feel I'm the one arguing from faith here.

[HoverBoarder]

I don't know if it matters if you call them Antifa, or violent protesters, or whatever you call the subsection of protesters who engage in violence, but the damage from them to businesses and people is still there. I definitely agree that Trump and Fox News have used the 'Antifa' term so broadly, that it has lost a lot of meaning, and people do not take them seriously anymore.

They will call a group of peaceful demonstrators just standing there with signs 'antifa terrorists.' It certainly does not make people believe them when there actually protesters engaging in violence.


Meanwhile, a roving band of 150 people walked around Seattle openly looting and starting fires last night, and according to the police "nothing could be done" to stop it.


Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting

Quote:

SEATTLE — A destructive, roving band of people broke into several Seattle businesses Wednesday night and set fire to merchandise in some of the stores, police said.

The group of about 150 people first gathered at Cal Anderson Park at about 9 p.m., then roamed about the Capitol Hill neighborhood, doing massive amounts of property damage, looting, shooting fireworks, and committing arson, according to police reports.

The group then made its way to the 1500 block of 11th Avenue, breaking more businesses’ windows along the way. Some people in the group then broke into a business, stole merchandise and put it in middle of the street, where they lit it on fire.

The owners of Likelihood Seattle, a local business selling men's and women's shoes at 1101 East Union Street, said their store was hit by the group, but police told them nothing could be done.

The group then went to Broadway and Madison Street, where individuals used baseball bats and pipes to break all the windows at a Whole Foods store. They threw fireworks into the store and then began looting...

No arrests were made.

Quote:

Just ran in to someone who’s been on the ground covering these protests - he says “the professionals are back.” Needless to say, he wasn’t happy

[HoverBoarder]

Also, there are definitely differences in the actions of people who self identify as Antifa. It does not always mean that they will automatically engage in violence.

When the Proud Boys came to the CHOP, there were people who identified themselves as Antifa who had long discussions with the Proud Boys as they walked through the zone. There was a filmed attack from the Proud Boys on a single person later in the day, but at least during their visit in the CHOP area, there was no violence.

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

I don't know if it matters if you call them Antifa, or violent protesters, or whatever you call the subsection of protesters who engage in violence, but the damage from them to businesses and people is still there. I definitely agree that Trump and Fox News have used the 'Antifa' term so broadly, that it has lost a lot of meaning, and people do not take them seriously anymore.

They will call a group of peaceful demonstrators just standing there with signs 'antifa terrorists.' It certainly does not make people believe them when there actually protesters engaging in violence.


Meanwhile, a roving band of 150 people walked around Seattle openly looting and starting fires last night, and according to the police "nothing could be done" to stop it.


Police: Roving band breaks into Seattle businesses, setting fires, looting

Never a social worker around when you need one.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Strangely enough, the cities that didn't take an iron fist approach to breaches of public order have been the most successful in keeping things peaceful.

Many major cities in the US had outbreaks of protests that turned into riots in the immediate aftermath of the George Floyd murder.

Now, only a select few are still having ongoing, if not escalating, bouts of public disorder and opportunistic looting. It should be noted that these cities have also seen some of the most robust police responses since day 1.

Doing nothing, or using a very light touch, is often the best tactic if the goal is reducing violence or property damage. Sending out the riot cops to gas and beat crowds practically guarantees continued unrest.

Portland has had 50+ days of continuous unrest in the streets. The cops are out in full force, using everything short of just opening fire with lethal weapons into the crowd. It's a real-time natural experiment in the effectiveness of jack-boot tactics to quell riots and is failing miserably.

Seattle and Portland, those bastions of right-wing authoritarianism...

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I put them in the same bin as all of those alleged Bernie Bros who are going to vote for Trump to spite Biden. Once you subtract the hearsay, the false flag trolls, the baseless accusations, there's just not much left. The last I'm aware of any genuine antifa activities was Charlottesville three years ago, and that was in response to genuine fascism so it'd be where you'd expect anti-fascists to show up. Since then they've just been boogeymen for Fox News to blame everything on and not make their viewers ask themselves any tough questions.

Interesting. So you have some way of determining which activities are genuine antifa, and which are ersatz?

[HoverBoarder]

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Never a social worker around when you need one.

That is sadly more true than you may realize.

I just wrote a thread on it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=345622

The stated goal of many of the key political decision makers is to not just to defund the police by 50%, but to full out replace them with community social worker groups that would "eliminate the need for police" altogether.


Here's a snipit of the thread from someone who is leading the charge to get rid of police and replace them with social workers.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Originally Posted by Nikkita Oliver

Our first set of demand as it related to defund in 2020, is we see three million dollars go to a participatory budgeting process. Because we need to have as much time as possible to get as much community involved as possible in deciding what is the next phase of services that we move into, and we want that process held by community. We want it to be in partnership with King County Equity now, Decriminalize Seattle, and the organizations that are under those coalitions.

Because we know that community is going to better administer that process than bureaucracy will right? The next step is also scaling up community-based services. So we're looking at 10 million dollars to help those organizations that already exist, that are doing public health and public safety work to be able to scale up so that in mid 2021, those organizations can start taking a much higher level of calls from 911, which is also about civilianizing 911 infrastructure.

As it stands now, police officers are involved in determining when people call into dispatch, what gets sent out to respond to that call. And so it is really important that we get this armed police mentality out of the way that we respond to crises, and really get a true social work understanding of what it means when someone in crisis calls.

You know, we have services in our city that know how to respond to domestic violence, know how to respond to mental health crises, know how to support people through courts, and other processes within the criminal punishment system, and those systems need to be well funded. The truth of the matter is that many of those organization are doing far more work, but are grossly underfunded, and we want to get to a place where those organization have exactly what they need.

The fourth bucket that we are looking at right now is housing, because we know that when people [don't have] housing and are stable, there's no way that they can live a totally safe life. When you're worried about where you are going to live, or what you're going to eat, you're inevitably going to be pushed into the criminal justice system. Your going to have to commit quote unquote crimes of poverty, and you're going to have to do things that otherwise you would not have to do if we made sure that everyone in our city who wanted it, had access to safe affordable housing.

So that's 2020, when we get to 2021, we're going to be asking the Seattle city council to also still commit to that 50% cut of SPD's budget, which is going to be 205 million dollars, because their budget right now is 410 million. That is a new opportunity to grow our civilianized 911 infrastructure, and to ensure that we grow those services that we know sociologically, we know scientifically, this is not some stuff we made up. There's tons of research that shows this, that we know actually keeps people from ever having to have having an encounter with police, and as we strengthen those services, we can continue to decrease SPD's budget, until we get to the place where they are no longer needed.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

That is sadly more true than you may realize.

I just wrote a thread on it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=345622

The stated goal of many of the key political decision makers is to not just to defund the police by 50%, but to full out replace them with community social worker groups that would "eliminate the need for police" altogether.


Here's a snipit of the thread from someone who is leading the charge to get rid of police and replace them with social workers.

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I AGREE

They're going to cut the police budget by 205 million? How much you want to bet that is more than the combined salaries of all SPD? I'm sure the thought is that if you cut the budget in half, you cut the number of cops in half. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, because only a portion of the budget is salaries; a lot of other expenditures are relatively fixed and don't scale down, at least not overnight. But I do love the confidence of Nikkita Oliver. Whenever I hear anybody say " we know sociologically, we know scientifically, this is not some stuff we made up," everything else they say is some stuff they made up.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Seattle and Portland, those bastions of right-wing authoritarianism...

Seattle PD could likely be disbanded entirely and replaced with a new force, they're wildly out of line and it seems clear that reform attempts have failed. They can be replaced with Seattle residents, who likely will actually listen instead of immediately beating the crap out of people who they think don't "respect their authorirah" - and certainly these federal forces should be arrested and charges with assault, kidnapping, rioting, and whatever else can be thrown at them.

And no more working with the union until they replace leadership entirely.

Think I'm kidding about "drastic reform"? Most of the time they show up the cops are the only actual violent people around, and when people on the force things do show up they mysteriously vanish - which is why there's so much violence in the first place. Most of these forces simply refuse to understand that they are the main problem, so what use are they?