Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Anyway, why do these police think that rioting, looting, vandalizing, etc. is right?

Like I said, every time, these are all cop riots, and that's exactly why people are protesting. If the cops would just calm down and stop turning violent at random, Beating people, firing explosives wildly, etc., folks wouldn't be marching in the first place. But they insist, so folks have gone from "reform" to "defund".

Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

As far as sending in "regular servicemen" I'm going to assume you're referring to active duty military personnel?

Whoops. English is my second language, so slipups happen from time to time. The Norwegian word for 'serviceman' is used to refer to police more often than to soldiers. My bad for being unintentionally misleading .

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.

Thank goodness none of that was happening that night, then.

Would you like to try again?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Eh, look at the tactics the rioters are using. Slashing tires? No, they're burning police cars, police stations, trying to blind people with lasers.

This is all after they were hit with violent resistance first. The exceptions were not protesters, they were a different group.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Whoops. English is my second language, so slipups happen from time to time. The Norwegian word for 'serviceman' is used to refer to police more often than to soldiers. My bad for being unintentionally misleading .

No worries

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This is all after they were hit with violent resistance first. The exceptions were not protesters, they were a different group.

Is hitting with violent resistance similar to breaking someones' fist with ones' nose?

[Shadowdweller]

I am getting extremely tired of people who live nowhere near Portland and have no familiarity with the place presuming that they have a clue about what's going on here.

Doing things like chanting "Every city, every town burn the precinct to the ground." And then blocking the doors and lighting fires directly in front of wooden paneling while there are people inside is seriously NOT ok. Nor for that matter is inventing fictions about how all the unrest is due to the mayor's actions, inactions, or some obscene mischaracterization of "Antifa".

[Puppycow]

The New York Times confirms that Antifa is, in fact, a thing:

Abolish the Police? Those Who Survived the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

Quote:

Antifa, which stands for anti-fascist, is a radical, leaderless leftist political movement that uses armed, violent protest as a method to create what supporters say is a more just and equitable country. They have a strong presence in the Pacific Northwest, including the current protests in Portland.

The story is about a gay immigrant of color being harangued by "Young white men wielding guns":

Quote:

SEATTLE — Faizel Khan was being told by the news media and his own mayor that the protests in his hometown were peaceful, with “a block party atmosphere.”

But that was not what he saw through the windows of his Seattle coffee shop. He saw encampments overtaking the sidewalks. He saw roving bands of masked protesters smashing windows and looting.

Young white men wielding guns would harangue customers as well as Mr. Khan, a gay man of Middle Eastern descent who moved here from Texas so he could more comfortably be out. To get into his coffee shop, he sometimes had to seek the permission of self-appointed armed guards to cross a border they had erected.

“They barricaded us all in here,” Mr. Khan said. “And they were sitting in lawn chairs with guns.”

For 23 days in June, about six blocks in the city’s Capitol Hill neighborhood were claimed by left-wing demonstrators and declared police-free. Protesters hailed it as liberation — from police oppression, from white supremacy — and a catalyst for a national movement.

Quote:

Now a group of local businesses owners — including a locksmith, the owner of a tattoo parlor, a mechanic, the owners of a Mexican restaurant and Mr. Khan — is suing the city. The lawsuit claims that “Seattle’s unprecedented decision to abandon and close off an entire city neighborhood, leaving it unchecked by the police, unserved by fire and emergency health services, and inaccessible to the public” resulted in enormous property damage and lost revenue.

Quote:

The economic losses that businesses suffered during the recent tumult are significant: One community relief fund in Minneapolis, where early protests included vandalism and arson, has raised $9 million for businesses along the Lake Street corridor, a largely Latino and East African business district. “We asked the small businesses what they needed to cover the damage that insurance wasn’t paying, and the gap was around $200 million,” said Allison Sharkey, the executive director of the Lake Street Council, which is organizing the fund. Her own office, between a crafts market and a Native American support center, was burned down in the protests.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.

Well the two things seem to go hand in hand. I'm not claiming all protesters were arsonists and vandals but as you say "The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals" so is there not some responsibility there? In many cases (like the "wall of moms") the so-called peaceful protesters were protecting those who were committing violence. I've seen people at the protest attack people who were filming the acts of violence.

If you go to a protest and you notice that others there with you are committing violence and vandalism, what do you do?

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

Disingenuous to say that the protests included vandalism and arson, no? The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals, that doesn't make the protesters arsonists and vandals.

There are massive protests with many thousands of people in Portland at places like Pioneer Square and Revolution Hall where nobody gets arrested and people get a chance to listen to activists and ideas about police reform. Then there are the late-night riots when the wall of moms and other "peaceful protesters" where everybody knows perfectly well that in their midst are people firing roman candles at the police, shooting them with pellet guns, throwing various things at them, blinding them with laser pointers, throwing Molotov cocktails, and so on. When they are successful at breaching the building security measures and they get inside, they are not there to take over the building, they immediately set fires inside the building with over 250 souls inside.
People on this forum express their deep dismay and concern that there is a security perimeter fence around this building because it is blocking the bike lane. They make light of the fires and the use of accelerants. There is no other purpose or motivation for being there other than having a physical confrontation with the police.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Well the two things seem to go hand in hand. I'm not claiming all protesters were arsonists and vandals but as you say "The protests were used as cover by arsonists and vandals" so is there not some responsibility there? In many cases (like the "wall of moms") the so-called peaceful protesters were protecting those who were committing violence. I've seen people at the protest attack people who were filming the acts of violence.

If you go to a protest and you notice that others there with you are committing violence and vandalism, what do you do?

What should you do?

And is the presence of looters and vandals the fault of the protesters?

[Wolrab]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

What should you do?

And is the presence of looters and vandals the fault of the protesters?

It is if they are covering for them.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Wolrab

It is if they are covering for them.

Is it your claim that the protesters as a whole are covering for the looters and vandals?

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

What should you do?

And is the presence of looters and vandals the fault of the protesters?

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Is it your claim that the protesters as a whole are covering for the looters and vandals?

I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.

"I care about this issue, but not enough to do any due diligence to see if the way I'm participating is hurting or helping" seems to fit with our culture.

[Puppycow]

‘Lives hang in balance’ from ‘planned coordinated attacks’

Remarks from the mayor of Portland.

Quote:

PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) — Mayor Ted Wheeler was blunt at a Thursday afternoon press conference.

“When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people that you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating,” he said, “You are attempting to commit murder.”

Wheeler and PPB Chief Chuck Lovell held a joint press conference after Portland police declared another riot after a mob attacked the East Precinct building, tore off boards, set fire to plywood using an accelerant, shattered the glass doors and blocked exits.

Eight people were arrested, including 2 from other states, Kentucky and Minnesota.

If you don’t want to be part of the intentional violence, the mayor said, stay away.

Doesn't mean you can't march peacefully during the day, just stay away from the organized riots happening each night.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I think portlandatheist covered the distinction above. There are two kinds of protests. One is peaceful. This usually happens during daytime. People come, they march, they give speeches and they go home. The other kind happens at night and involves more violent people. If you want to avoid associating yourself with the looters, vandals and arsonists, go to the first kind of protest, not the second one.

Why should protesters have their freedom of assembly infringed upon? Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other people who are uninvited and over whom they have no control?

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Why should protesters have their freedom of assembly infringed upon? Why should they be held accountable for the actions of other people who are uninvited and over whom they have no control?

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

Don't you dare apply logic to this equation.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

The problem is that, in the case of the police it's not "a few bad apples", it's entire departments. Baltimore PD's recruitment has collapsed after multiple scandals involving police caught planting drugs on their own body cameras, the laughable Gun Trace Task Force, and starting a riot on the day of Freddie Grey's funeral by forcing high-schoolers towards a local mall, and then blasting them with rubber bullets for being too close to the local mall.

Can you show that there are any cities where the great majority of protestors aren't peaceful?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

ACAB isn't an assault on civil rights. Making reforms to police departments, including cutting budgets, isn't a violation of individual cops civil rights.

Being called a bastard by protesters isn't comparable to deciding that citizens can't assemble and demand redress, something explicitly protected by the Bill of Rights.

Mentioning these two in the same context is absurd.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?



"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police. Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

A protester can't do a whole lot to stop a vandal and they have implied no intention to do so by wanting to protest.

A police officer is uniquely capable of stopping criminal activity, whoever is conducting it, and has implied they intend to do so by wanting to be a police officer.

There is an enormous difference in culpability.

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

The New York Times confirms that Antifa is, in fact, a thing:

"Antifa" is a thing that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ridiculous scare-fiction promulgated by the right-wing echo chamber. The local chapter, Rose City Antifa, is supposedly one of the older variants thereof (stemming all the way back from 2007 if their website is to be believed).

https://rosecityantifa.org/
https://twitter.com/RoseCityAntifa?r...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

While Antifa has ties to various other activist groups and trends toward general anti-police sentiment, their focus is almost entirely on "outing" (sometimes doxxing) hate-speech and hate-groups; and counterprotesting where said groups gather. More importantly best evidence has shown that Antifa groups have NOT been significantly involved in recent protests.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN2502NQ

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/...g-to-the-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/u...rge-floyd.html

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

ACAB isn't an assault on civil rights. Making reforms to police departments, including cutting budgets, isn't a violation of individual cops civil rights.

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at achievable reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at meaningful reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

ACAB is more than just insulting cops. It's a statement about the nature of policing in which all cops, even those that don't personally engaged in bad behavior, are enablers of a system of impunity. Not all cops are out there violating civil rights or committing crimes, but all cops are refusing to take action to stop this and change the system.

Cops that speak out against this system find themselves quickly not cops anymore.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Why should good cops be blamed for the actions of a few bad apples? Why do some protesters carry signs saying "ACAB" when not all cops are involved in the problematic incidents?

Because people are not perfect. They can project their particular experiences onto the collective and reach the conclusion that, for instance, all coppers are bastards.

Quote:

"Don't hold us collectively responsible for what the bad ones are doing" should be an equally valid position for the police.

It's just as valid as the position that protesters should not be held collectively responsilbe for what some of them do.

Quote:

Society needs laws to function, and therefore someone has to enforce the laws.

Every society needs a police force, and no society should trust them. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" and all that. You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

Sensationalism bias. Nothing sells like a scandal.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

ACAB is more than just insulting cops. It's a statement about the nature of policing in which all cops, even those that don't personally engaged in bad behavior, are enablers of a system of impunity. Not all cops are out there violating civil rights or committing crimes, but all cops are refusing to take action to stop this and change the system.

Cops that speak out against this system find themselves quickly not cops anymore.

There's no end of anectdotal evidence for that, and the dragging inertia of police culture generally supports it. From what I've read, police unions have a lot to answer for in that regard.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Sensationalism bias. Nothing sells like a scandal.

What? People have a sensationalism bias when judging their own experiences, and those of people they know, because they're hoping for a saleable scandal? Do you think everybody looks at life as an opportunity to be a reality-TV star? Or what?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

What? People have a sensationalism bias when judging their own experiences, and those of people they know, because they're hoping for a saleable scandal? Do you think everybody looks at life as an opportunity to be a reality-TV star? Or what?

I'm not talking about person experiences. I'm talking about what information the general public gets exposed to.

Media provides sensational material. Cops behaving well doesn't make the news.

The news and media outlets in the US don't provide a representative sample of interactions. They'll show you the handful of vandals setting things on fire, but they won't show you the thousands of peaceful protesters. Or they'll show you the police using pepper spray, but won't show you what led up to that action. They'll give you the juiciest bits that are sure to prompt outrage.

Scandals sell; Truth and fairness do not.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

While ACAB doesn't have the same ethical weight as murder or physical assault, sure, it isn't a slogan aimed at achievable reform either. Nor are chants like "No cops! No prisons! Total abolition!"

Slogans and chants have contributed damn' little to achieved reform through history. "I can't breathe!" might go down as one that did.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm not talking about person experiences. I'm talking about what information the general public gets exposed to.

The general public are individuals, and I'm talking about individual experiences.

Quote:

Media provides sensational material. Cops behaving well doesn't make the news.

That has no bearing on people's actual experience.

Quote:

The news and media outlets in the US don't provide a representative sample of interactions.

If the sample you and the people you know experience is of coppers acting like bastards it's as representative as you need.

Quote:

Scandals sell; Truth and fairness do not.

That has no bearing on people's actual experience. Reality does not come to one through a tube.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

... That has no bearing on people's actual experience. Reality does not come to one through a tube.

I feel like the conversation shifted somewhere along the way. You asked:

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

You should perhaps ask yourself why so many people get the impression that all coppers are bastards.

I gave an answer to that.

There's a problem with the justice system in the US, definitely. But the reason that so many people have the impression that ALL COPPERS ARE BASTARDS isn't because of their own person experiences with cops. It's because they are shown cops being bastards on a regular basis, even if that isn't actually representative of the behavior of the majority of police.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

"Antifa" is a thing that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ridiculous scare-fiction promulgated by the right-wing echo chamber. The local chapter, Rose City Antifa, is supposedly one of the older variants thereof (stemming all the way back from 2007 if their website is to be believed).

https://rosecityantifa.org/
https://twitter.com/RoseCityAntifa?r...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

While Antifa has ties to various other activist groups and trends toward general anti-police sentiment, their focus is almost entirely on "outing" (sometimes doxxing) hate-speech and hate-groups; and counterprotesting where said groups gather. More importantly best evidence has shown that Antifa groups have NOT been significantly involved in recent protests.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN2502NQ

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/...g-to-the-data/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/u...rge-floyd.html

My in-person experience with (self-identified) Antifa around the time of Occupy was lots of virtuous rhetoric, lots of criminal behavior, and lots of pejoratives for anyone who so much as questioned them. They weren't but about 2% of the crowds and only a handful would be at general assembly (usually to remind us we're all not committed enough to "do what it takes"). But every night, the press portrays everyone as Antifa, shows the broken windows and fires, but has no time for the b-roll from the peaceful vigil.

It sucks. But it isn't going to change. So I don't get the continued flirtation with it. They are not there for the purported reasons of organizers time after time. They refuse to respect requests of organizers time after time. But since there's a meme with a picture from the D-Day landings labeled "largest Antifa operation ever" and they got sympathetic coverage over Charlottesville, you can't tell them off without losing a whole lot of protest bodies. So it's a bit of a devil's dilemma.

Complaining about how unfair it is they dominate the coverage doesn’t work either. But then, an outright denunciation creates an inner rift within the movement because it chills those who wouldn't do it themselves, but wink at it.

I'd be more impressed by the leaf-blower dads if there was a squad of guys in padded leather who will stand in front of windows or other acts of blocking vandalism. Make it clear bail fund money will not be available to those arrested for certain classes of crimes.

[CapelDodger]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I feel like the conversation shifted somewhere along the way. You asked:

I gave an answer to that.

Not a credible one.

Quote:

There's a problem with the justice system in the US, definitely. But the reason that so many people have the impression that ALL COPPERS ARE BASTARDS isn't because of their own person experiences with cops. It's because they are shown cops being bastards on a regular basis, even if that isn't actually representative of the behavior of the majority of police.

I'm well acquainted with the East End of London where the saying originated, and I can assure you that the media have nothing to do with it.

[CapelDodger]

Rioters are a blight on every protest, I'm sure we can all agree on that. Anyone who wants to flirt with them can take issue with me.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Slogans and chants have contributed damn' little to achieved reform through history. "I can't breathe!" might go down as one that did.

The only reform that should lead to is wider deployment of naloxone to law enforcement to treat opioid overdose. Floyd couldn't breathe because he had overdosed on Fentanyl, and he was saying that before the cops even touched him. The cops didn't kill Floyd, he killed himself. I assume by accident, but it was still his own drug use which killed him.

[Silly Green Monkey]

I don't remember the coroner saying that, or that he died from Covid19. What's your source?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

I'm well acquainted with the East End of London where the saying originated, and I can assure you that the media have nothing to do with it.

Sorry CapelDodger, I'm very confused. Are you talking about British cops and media? I thought we were talking about US cops and media, so my comments may not have been applicable.