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Old 21st January 2021, 10:38 AM   #41
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post

Also in case you didn't know. The US war with Japan in WW II was largely due to the US policy of aggressive expansionism in the Pacific. (No kidding this view is actually taught.)
That is true. If the use did not commit acts of aggression in the pacific, there would have been no US soldiers in the pacific to attack.

The US complaining about the Japanese attack is like an arsonist complaining about someone burning down their house.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
We can't allow that to be taught in the schools. The emphasis must be about slavery and how wicked the US was and is for that matter. How evil the founding fathers really were etc.

Also in case you didn't know. The US war with Japan in WW II was largely due to the US policy of aggressive expansionism in the Pacific. (No kidding this view is actually taught.)
To pwengthold's point, I don't know what is really taught to real fifth graders in America. The news media stories pick and choose little bits of things here and there.

When I was in high school in the 1970s, I think there was a pretty good balance and realistic treatment of history. The Constitution was praised, but the Founding Fathers weren't portrayed as perfect, and the obvious contradiction of the ideals of the rhetoric of the Declaration of Independence and principles of the Constitution were pointed out, as they should be.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post

Also in case you didn't know. The US war with Japan in WW II was largely due to the US policy of aggressive expansionism in the Pacific. (No kidding this view is actually taught.)
US expansionism is what put it at odds with Japanese expansionism. The US was the preferred by the area that was the subject of this expansion because Japanese culture was heavily militarized, authoritarian and racist. (much like the political right is today in the US)

The real preference of the locals, however, was that neither of these powers were trying to expand into the pacific. US expansionism was wrong regardless of what Japan was doing, and it's perfectly reasonable to teach this. What Japan was doing simply does not make US expansionism better.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:00 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Kind of a moot point what other countries were doing. Several states in the US had already abolished slavery before the constitutional convention. Abolition of slavery was not something that was beyond the realm of imagination to any of the founders.
I think it was just Vermont
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:04 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think it was just Vermont
Massachusetts Supreme Court ended slavery in 1783 under the reasoning that it was inconsistent with state Declaration of Human Rights that all men were created free and equal.

Slavery was seen by at least some at the time to be inconsistent with Lockean Liberalism that was popular at the time and was the foundation of much of the Constitution. It's perfectly fair to condemn those that had blind spots on the matter.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:07 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
The 1619 Project deserves tons of criticism and is full of falsehoods, but that doesn't mean the exact opposite of it is true. I forsee the horror-show that is the 1776 Commission being used to boost acceptance of the 1619 Project stuff, despite the fact that historians are hugely critical of both. At least the 1619 Project is well meaning I guess, and more importantly, actually does contain a lot of good information mixed in with the crap.
THIS.
The 1619 project has a lot of problems , but the 1776 Comission is not a legitimate criticism but right wing political BS.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Massachusetts Supreme Court ended slavery in 1783 under the reasoning that it was inconsistent with state Declaration of Human Rights that all men were created free and equal.

Slavery was seen by at least some at the time to be inconsistent with Lockean Liberalism that was popular at the time and was the foundation of much of the Constitution. It's perfectly fair to condemn those that had blind spots on the matter.
Oh it was something that clearly was thought of in uncomfortable terms though was mostly rationalized away.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:23 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Massachusetts Supreme Court ended slavery in 1783 under the reasoning that it was inconsistent with state Declaration of Human Rights that all men were created free and equal.

Slavery was seen by at least some at the time to be inconsistent with Lockean Liberalism that was popular at the time and was the foundation of much of the Constitution. It's perfectly fair to condemn those that had blind spots on the matter.
They didn't have blind spots. They ignored morality in favor of expediency. Because the slave economy was profitable (to white people), those who knew better went along with it. Then, the states opposed to slavery let the tail wag the dog for another 70+ years.

Again, it's a bald-faced lie that slavery was generally considered moral, and the arguments that it was moral were propagated by those whose wealth depended on it. One could as easily say that it's considered moral to rob banks because bank robbers argue that it is so.

And to Meadmaker, yes we're discussing slavery because it's the crux of this issue. It's why this stupid ******* commission was created: Because some white pissants are mad because over two centuries late our society is trying to expunge the false narrative that our Union was ever ideal. It has been fundamentally flawed from the beginning. If that is accepted then it's possible to change how the US is constituted going forward. It's only through denial that the regressive amongst us can continue to hold power.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:24 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
The 1619 project has a lot of problems , but the 1776 Comission is not a legitimate criticism but right wing political BS.
The big difference is that the 1916 project is op-ed while the 1776 Commission is trying to present itself as an official US government report. Op-ed, can play an important role in political debate even when it's not strictly true. Bogus government reports that try to villainize the opposition are commonly created as a pretext by dictators to crack down on their critics.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Putting aside the many, many, oh so many, racist dog whistles for a moment. It is so poorly written. Did they start it the night before? It reads like one of Trump's speeches. A selection of buzzwords strung together by barely coherent sentences and self-aggrandizement.
I think it was written in a manner that the sponsor could actually read it.

"Keep to small words", "Glorify slave owners", "Deny responsibility because money", "Nationalism wins votes"
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
The 1619 project has a lot of problems , but the 1776 Comission is not a legitimate criticism but right wing political BS.
According to the wikipedia page, there are many historians who have expressed concerns about the 1619 Project.

Not a one of them were on the 1776 commission.

Apparently, while it's claimed to be a a response to the 1619 Project, it didn't actually care so much about honest criticism and was more concerned about promoting the "right" view.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:49 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The point being made was that when the US constitution was written slavery was already something most major nations had decided was wrong/evil.
The point hasn't really been shown to be true, though. The major nations of the founding era were France, Britain, Russia, Austria–Hungary, Prussia, and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Portugal.

Portugal partially abolished slavery in 1761, but continued to traffic heavily in slaves across the Atlantic for more than a century thereafter.

Prussia abolished slavery in 1807.

Spain abolished slavery in 1811.

Britain passed the Abolition of Slavery Act in 1833.

France abolished slavery for good in 1848.

Russia abolished serfdom (which had come to strongly resemble chattel slavery) in 1906.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...61464920070322
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:57 AM   #53
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Seriously, who was the intended audience for this tripe? And what's with 'Commision'? My kids could crank out more (and not been douche canoes about it) during commercial breaks one evening watching tv. Was someone actually paid real money to produce this? How much? I could train a poodle to cut and paste better. And who FFS was supposed to read it and in what context?
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously, who was the intended audience for this tripe? And what's with 'Commision'? My kids could crank out more (and not been douche canoes about it) during commercial breaks one evening watching tv. Was someone actually paid real money to produce this? How much? I could train a poodle to cut and paste better. And who FFS was supposed to read it and in what context?
I don't know if anyone was supposed to read it, it was intended as a weapon in the culture war, giving apparent support for right wing wackos pet beliefs. For example like how text books would refer to slaves as immigrants or workers and not slaves.

https://www.latimes.com/books/jacket...005-story.html

"“The Atlantic Slave Trade between the 1500s and 1800s brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations.”"
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The point hasn't really been shown to be true, though. The major nations of the founding era were France, Britain, Russia, Austria–Hungary, Prussia, and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Portugal.

Portugal partially abolished slavery in 1761, but continued to traffic heavily in slaves across the Atlantic for more than a century thereafter.

Prussia abolished slavery in 1807.

Spain abolished slavery in 1811.

Britain passed the Abolition of Slavery Act in 1833.

France abolished slavery for good in 1848.

Russia abolished serfdom (which had come to strongly resemble chattel slavery) in 1906.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...61464920070322
Many had gotten rid of it in their own, national borders and that seems to be the system the US would be competing against.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:13 PM   #56
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About the Russian serfs.....this may be a little short sided, but I would have a less of a problem with American slavery if it was wasps owning wasps.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:24 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously, who was the intended audience for this tripe? And what's with 'Commision'? My kids could crank out more (and not been douche canoes about it) during commercial breaks one evening watching tv. Was someone actually paid real money to produce this? How much? I could train a poodle to cut and paste better. And who FFS was supposed to read it and in what context?
Civics teachers.

The core of the document is about changing the way we teach Civics and American History.

And no, your kids couldn't write better than that document during commercial breaks.


I haven't completed it, but I've read about all that I intend to read. I skipped around. Like so many things, there's good stuff in there, and they try to hide the bad stuff inside the good stuff.

Far too much of it is the theme of "Teach kids that America is and always has been the most awesomest place ever." It does a good job of talking about the principles behind American government, which I would agree really are quite good, and very possibly the best in the world, but that gets drowned out in some of the jingoistic aspects, and they try to slip in some right wing "values" talk as well.

If a high school student wrote it, I would give them an A+. If a college student wrote it, I would give it an A-. If a PhD dissertation candidate wrote it, I would say that it is seriously lacking in documentation and justification.

And if a Presidential Commission wrote it? I think I might have suggested more inclusion of non-partisan sources.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Many had gotten rid of it in their own, national borders and that seems to be the system the US would be competing against.
Many what, Bob?

According to this page, "the first country in Europe to ban the African slave trade" did so in 1803, over a dozen years after the founding of the United States as a constitutional republic.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Many what, Bob?

According to this page, "the first country in Europe to ban the African slave trade" did so in 1803, over a dozen years after the founding of the United States as a constitutional republic.
Outside their borders. We are talking about inside borders here.
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Old 21st January 2021, 01:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Civics teachers.
So....this was intended as a talking points reeducation pamphlet for civics teachers? Cuz 20 pages or so (then subtract the pictures) would only fill one lecture time. And why do teachers need the pictures mixed in? Do you see what I mean about it having no value as it is? Too short for a text or reference material, too long for a pamphlet shoved in a gas station urinal next to the Jesus Loves The Little Junkies tracts.

Quote:
The core of the document is about changing the way we teach Civics and American History.

And no, your kids couldn't write better than that document during commercial breaks.


I haven't completed it, but I've read about all that I intend to read. I skipped around. Like so many things, there's good stuff in there, and they try to hide the bad stuff inside the good stuff.

Far too much of it is the theme of "Teach kids that America is and always has been the most awesomest place ever." It does a good job of talking about the principles behind American government, which I would agree really are quite good, and very possibly the best in the world, but that gets drowned out in some of the jingoistic aspects, and they try to slip in some right wing "values" talk as well.

If a high school student wrote it, I would give them an A+. If a college student wrote it, I would give it an A-. If a PhD dissertation candidate wrote it, I would say that it is seriously lacking in documentation and justification.

And if a Presidential Commission wrote it? I think I might have suggested more inclusion of non-partisan sources.
It's hard to read on cel but I'll give it another go on laptop later. Seemed pretty generic boilerplate prose with some partisan rhetoric at first blush.
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Old 21st January 2021, 01:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously, who was the intended audience for this tripe?
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Civics teachers.
They also intended for this to be used by the National Park Service to guide interpretive efforts at Historic Sites. I was distributed to NPS employees when it was released.

I am guessing it was probably also sent to the Smithsonian, and probably to Defense Department people who manage historical interpretation/tours of existing military faculties that include historic elements.

And more.
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Old 21st January 2021, 01:37 PM   #62
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Slavery existed where it was mostly economically advantageous. In the northern states, farms were small, family run operations; large plantations didn't exist due to weather making for short growing seasons and poor soil conditions made more profitable crops like tobacco and cotton impossible to grow. It didn't make sense to have slaves as it was expensive to buy and maintain slaves. Because slavery was economically unfeasible in northern states, it made it much easier to be philosophically anti-slavery in those states.

Even though most southerners didn't own slaves, and those who did only owned one or two, it was still the plantations owners who drove and controlled southern politics. Whether or not these slave owners truly believed it was morally wrong or not only they knew, but people are very, very good at justifying what they do, especially when it comes to maintaining their power and money.
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Old 21st January 2021, 01:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We are talking about inside borders here.
Okay, what was the first European nation to ban slavery inside their own borders?
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, what was the first European nation to ban slavery inside their own borders?
It looks like denmark banned it very early.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:17 PM   #65
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This report is bollocks, its part of the right's crusade against the truth about America's racist past. It is almost certainly the brainchild Trump's racist advisor, Stephen Miller (one wag on Twitter accurately referred to is as "Stephen Miller's seventh-grade term paper"). Its an attempt at history revisionism by trying to refute teachings on systemic racism, critical race theory, and deeper examinations of how slavery has affected American society, particularly trying to whitewash slavery (no pun intended).

The biggest insult is that it was released on Martin Luther King Jr. Day - this was no co-incidence - the timing that turns my stomach!

ETA: https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...rican-history/
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, what was the first European nation to ban slavery inside their own borders?
Denmark & Norway (1803)
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Denmark & Norway
Once again, I'm having trouble seeing how the U.S. was (as claimed upthread) well behind Europe at the time of the founding.

The Abolition of Slavery in 1848

Quote:
The Danish ban on the transatlantic slave trade in 1792 marked the beginning of the end of slavery. Fifty years later, in 1847, the state of Denmark ruled that slavery be phased out over a 12 year period, beginning with all new-born babies of enslaved women. This was far from enough for the enslaved population.
According to the national museum, the Danish process ran from after the founding of the U.S. and went on for the next five decades.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:38 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once again, I'm having trouble seeing how the U.S. was (as often claimed upthread) well behind Europe at the time of the founding.

The Abolition of Slavery in 1848
Because europe was well ahead on banning slavery in their own countries.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:40 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once again, I'm having trouble seeing how the U.S. was (as often claimed upthread) well behind Europe at the time of the founding.

The Abolition of Slavery in 1848
Keep in mind that part of America was still fighting to keep slavery in 1865!
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:44 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Keep in mind that part of America was still fighting to keep slavery in 1865!
But is that really such a chasm in historical terms? Especially when the other part was shedding blood to stop it.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:48 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I don't see that as germane. The point being made was that when the US constitution was written slavery was already something most major nations had decided was wrong/evil. The fact that some of the special interest groups of the day managed to convince those governments to keep allowing it in places where people didn't have to look at it doesn't change this. The ff HAD to know slavery was evil, and should have found a way to avoid entrenching it in the US constitution.
No, they had decided that they didn't want to do it to their own people. In effect that was the case in the states, the slaves weren't people
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:52 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because europe was well ahead on banning slavery in their own countries.
In 1789?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Keep in mind that part of America was still fighting to keep slavery in 1865!
Fair enough to say the U.S. was lagging behind Europe by the middle of the 19th century, but that's moving the goalposts several decades from what has been claimed upthread.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
There are some major exceptions but for the most part the US constitution didn't really do much more than restate principles that were already present in English Common Law. It did remove the unelected lords and replaced in with Senators appointed by the individual States. It also replaced a King with an elected President but that was something that was actually debated.
Curriculum requirements vary by state and school boards can often apply "interpretation."

From 1st grade to 11th, I just got a slightly more expansive version of the American Genesis Myth. When I took Western Civ I & II as a senior in high school (advanced college credit) was the first time (in an educational setting) the deeper divisions were fleshed out.

The big compromise talked about was the bicameral legislature. Not a whisper about counting 3/5ths of a person.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:05 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Curriculum requirements vary by state and school boards can often apply "interpretation."

From 1st grade to 11th, I just got a slightly more expansive version of the American Genesis Myth. When I took Western Civ I & II as a senior in high school (advanced college credit) was the first time (in an educational setting) the deeper divisions were fleshed out.

The big compromise talked about was the bicameral legislature. Not a whisper about counting 3/5ths of a person.
Odd. I taught that in my 9th grade US history class.

ETA: Late 1980's.

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Old 21st January 2021, 03:10 PM   #75
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I was taught all about the compromises in the Constitution. I know the "3/5" came up even in the junior high school version. In high school history, all of it came up, and the role of slavery on American society was stressed again and again, affecting pretty much every aspect of life in America prior to the Civil War.

For what it's worth, that was in the 1970s with the popular textbook, "The American Pageant".
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:32 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In 1789?
.
....if you exclude territories outside of Europe.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:34 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was taught all about the compromises in the Constitution. I know the "3/5" came up even in the junior high school version. In high school history, all of it came up, and the role of slavery on American society was stressed again and again, affecting pretty much every aspect of life in America prior to the Civil War.

For what it's worth, that was in the 1970s with the popular textbook, "The American Pageant".
It isn't much of a compromise.

You get slavery, you get the population counted to your votes, but it isn't going to be 1 for 1 damnit!
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
....if you exclude territories outside of Europe.
I must have missed the post in which some European nation (much less most of Europe) had abolished slavery by 1789, anywhere within Europe. Where are you getting this idea from, Bob?
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:59 PM   #79
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AHA Condemns Report of Advisory 1776 Commission (January 2021)(AHA = American Historical Association)

Quote:
The just-released “1776 Report” claims that common understanding of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution can unify all Americans in the love of country. The product of “The President’s Advisory 1776 Commission,” the report focuses on these founding documents in an apparent attempt to reject recent efforts to understand the multiple ways the institution of slavery shaped our nation’s history. The authors call for a form of government indoctrination of American students, and in the process elevate ignorance about the past to a civic virtue.

The report actually consists of two main themes. One is an homage to the Founding Fathers, a simplistic interpretation that relies on falsehoods, inaccuracies, omissions, and misleading statements. The other is a screed against a half-century of historical scholarship, presented largely as a series of caricatures, using single examples (most notably the “1619 Project”) to represent broader historiographical trends.

Edited by Agatha:  Trimmed for rule 4

Last edited by Agatha; 22nd January 2021 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 21st January 2021, 06:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I must have missed the post in which some European nation (much less most of Europe) had abolished slavery by 1789, anywhere within Europe. Where are you getting this idea from, Bob?
Portugal.

I can't find anything saying slavery was legal in Denmark after the middle ages.
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