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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:52 PM   #1
BobTheCoward
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Impeachment philosophy thread

Placeholder as I quote a few posts to establish the topic.

ETA: topic is the philosophy of concluding Trump committed an impeachable offense.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 23rd January 2021 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:54 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is it crystal clear? I'm not convinced. How would you convince someone?

It seems one would have to establish four things


What is the crime?
Why does it meet the high crimes or misdemeanor?
What standard should we use to evaluate the evidence?
How does the evidence meet that standard?
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Like I said, I'm not here to convince anyone, that's an issue of rhetoric; I'm talking about what a rational person would conclude, which is an issue of logic (and evidence).
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think it is logical to conclude it is incitement without a lot more history of what has constituted incitement and how the question has been addressed philosophically in the past. Maybe you possess that information, but I do not, and I'm not sure how many do.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's clear to anyone who has the capacity to look the word up in a damn dictionary and doesn't feel the need to nit pick at every other post.
Here it is
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:56 PM   #3
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Rep. Marjorie Greene files articles of impeachment against Biden
Cristina Marcos01/21/21 04:57 PM EST

Rep. Marjorie Greene (R-Ga.) said Thursday that she has filed articles of impeachment against President Biden, only a day after he was sworn into office.

The text of Greene's articles of impeachment specifying any impeachable offenses committed by Biden was not immediately available. But Greene indicated that the articles accuse Biden of abusing his power while serving as vice president by allowing his son, Hunter, to serve on the board of a Ukrainian energy company.

"President Joe Biden is unfit to hold the office of the presidency. His pattern of abuse of power as President Obama's Vice President is lengthy and disturbing. President Biden has demonstrated that he will do whatever it takes to bail out his son, Hunter, and line his family's pockets with cash from corrupt foreign energy companies," Greene said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5...-against-biden
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:59 PM   #4
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It seems a dictionary would not make things easier. The definition of incitement is the simple

Quote:
the action of provoking unlawful behavior or urging someone to behave unlawfully.
But that has the huge problem of not having any common exceptions for things like lawful, innocent behavior that can provoke someone to unlawful violence.

It also isn't clear that even if the dictionary definition was perfect, why some senator should use that as the criteria.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:01 PM   #5
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I don’t think there is any philosophy at all behind Greene’s impeachment articles. In fact I can’t even find a copy of them.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:03 PM   #6
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Not clear on the philosophy angle. As the House decides whether he was or wasn't, he was.

Are we supposed to philosophize on whether the House should or shouldn't have?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not clear on the philosophy angle. As the House decides whether he was or wasn't, he was.

Are we supposed to philosophize on whether the House should or shouldn't have?
The house will make their case. And I think the following questions would have to be answered

What is the crime?
Why does it meet the high crimes or misdemeanor?
What standard should we use to evaluate the evidence?
How does the evidence meet that standard?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
I don’t think there is any philosophy at all behind Greene’s impeachment articles. In fact I can’t even find a copy of them.
The philosophy is, 'You complained about the noise from my ghetto blaster, so now I'm complaining about you mowing your lawn on Sunday morning, so there!'

<unspoken: I am so fricking stupid I don't realise I need a majority vote to get it through>

You give me tit I'll raise you tat.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:16 PM   #9
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:25 PM   #10
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Impeachment is part of the Oversight Congress has over the President.
As such, only what Congress thinks is worthy of Impeachment and Conviction matters, not any law or principle.
And yes, a party with a Majority in the House and a 2/3 majority in the Senate could convict a President for wearing a tan suit.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The house will make their case. And I think the following questions would have to be answered

What is the crime?
Why does it meet the high crimes or misdemeanor?
What standard should we use to evaluate the evidence?
How does the evidence meet that standard?
You build up circumstantial evidence and back it with factual evidence, of which there is plenty: the rioters bragging about their exploits openly on Parler, for example.

Circumstantial evidence: When Trump moved into the White House, he put a portrait - or was it a bust - of Andrew Johnson in place. This guy led an insurrection at Wilmington IIRC and was staunchily dodgy in political outlook.

Trump had planned a strategy just for this occasion, i.e., losing an election. He was ready for this. Whilst demanding recounts was quite legal and within his rights, it became readily apparent very swiftly that these Court Applications were frivolous and vexatious in nature. Trump tactic #2: appeal directly to the state governors Tactic #3: appeal to the Supreme Courts.

Agitate on Twitter, with the help of 'hard-toiling Don Jr, Eric and 'dumb as a brick' Ivanka.

Create a slogan: stop the steal.

Refer to malcontents, neo-nazis, survivalists, QAnon conspiracy theorists as 'patriots'.

Arrange a rally on 6th Jan 2021 to try to intimidate the Senate from declaring the election. Make menacing contact with Ruffensperger (_sp?) demanding he reverts the election result and cojole him into 'finding 11,780 more votes' [incitement to corruption]. Harass the VP Mike Pence into announcing at the Senate that the election result not be accepted.

Telling his crowd of 15K to 'walk to Capitol Hill' to demand the vote be stopped.

They arrive there, and lo! and behold! there is only a skeleton staff of Capitol Police on duty. Trump is watching the whole thing on television nearby. Not once did he send a message to the motley crew to calm it down and leave the building. He refused to call for the National Guard for another two hours. WAIT!!! Mike Pence called you, cowering in a sheltered bunker, staving off armed quasi-military guys demanding his execution and that of others and you...did...exactly NOTHING!

By the time of the trial, it may well become clear that the raid was planned in advance and the lack of police deliberate and that it is undeniably clear that Trump wickedly planned to overthrow the state and declare himself total dictator , head of the National Guard, police and army, with Pelosi and co arrested and charged - rather like what happened in Hong Kong.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Impeachment is part of the Oversight Congress has over the President.
As such, only what Congress thinks is worthy of Impeachment and Conviction matters, not any law or principle.
And yes, a party with a Majority in the House and a 2/3 majority in the Senate could convict a President for wearing a tan suit.
Obviously. But if a senator is able to be convinced, someone may want to try convincing. This is asking about how one would do that.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That actually works on a couple of different levels in this thread. I'm gonna guess, though, that it's not for Marjorie Taylor Greene...
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:59 PM   #14
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From the Independent:

Quote:
Unlike a criminal trial, where there are strict rules about what is and isn’t evidence, the Senate can consider anything it wishes. And if they can show that Trump’s words made a real impact, all the better, and scholars expect it in the trial.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The house will make their case. And I think the following questions would have to be answered

What is the crime?
Why does it meet the high crimes or misdemeanor?
What standard should we use to evaluate the evidence?
How does the evidence meet that standard?
Those questions do not belong in a thread about the impeachment in the USA constitution as they are not part of constitutional impeachment.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:27 PM   #16
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Bob, ole philosopher, I wish you'd learn that "criteria" is the plural. "Criterion" is the singular.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:29 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Those questions do not belong in a thread about the impeachment in the USA constitution as they are not part of constitutional impeachment.
As the constitution doesn't answer them, someone else has to provide answers. It says high crime and misdemeanors. How does one know if the person has committed one to vote to convict them?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
That actually works on a couple of different levels in this thread. I'm gonna guess, though, that it's not for Marjorie Taylor Greene...
Yes. And I'm not getting sucked into yet another one of Bob's black holes. I'm outta here!
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:33 PM   #19
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Jesus ******* Christ. An impeachable offense is anything the House decides. How is this not already settled? How are ******* self styled "skeptics" so ******* bad at basic reasoning and continuity?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus ******* Christ. An impeachable offense is anything the House decides. How is this not already settled? How are ******* self styled "skeptics" so ******* bad at basic reasoning and continuity?
I responded this issue. At some point, the house representatives will wish to convince some senators that what the house thought was impeachable is also worth convicting over. At the point you want to convince others, it helps to be able to argue why.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:54 PM   #21
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The Constitution is an 18th century creation, and uses 18th century language -- and assumptions. To men of the Age of Reason, "high crimes and misdemeanors" meant behavior that no decent person could tolerate.

Here we see the difficulty of persuading small, ill-stocked minds to rise to levels of behavior which they can't concieve. In sober fact, they've never heard of them.

That's enough big words for today. In a bob thread, anyhow.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I responded this issue. At some point, the house representatives will wish to convince some senators that what the house thought was impeachable is also worth convicting over. At the point you want to convince others, it helps to be able to argue why.
You're asking about a removable offense, not an impeachable offense. Please please please figure it the **** out.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're asking about a removable offense, not an impeachable offense. Please please please figure it the **** out.
?

The house reps are going to argue in front of the senate that what they impeached him for should be what the Senate votes to punish him for.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 03:37 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As the constitution doesn't answer them, someone else has to provide answers. It says high crime and misdemeanors. How does one know if the person has committed one to vote to convict them?
It is all in the constitution, like I told you in the other thread if you want to change the constitution as in making it so "someone else has to provide answers" there are mechanisms in the constitution as to how to make those changes.

Until then you are not asking a question that has anything to do with impeachment as laid out in the constitution.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 03:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
?

The house reps are going to argue in front of the senate that what they impeached him for should be what the Senate votes to punish him for.
What has "should " got to do with it? If your should is not in the constitution it is not a should and again if you want to make changes to the constitution....
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Old 23rd January 2021, 03:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is all in the constitution, like I told you in the other thread if you want to change the constitution as in making it so "someone else has to provide answers" there are mechanisms in the constitution as to how to make those changes.

Until then you are not asking a question that has anything to do with impeachment as laid out in the constitution.
I didn't say making someone else provide answers. If one truly just wants each senator to make some determination on their own, that is fine. If you want to make a claim to a senator and try to convince them, I'm discussing how one would do that.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
I don’t think there is any philosophy at all behind Greene’s impeachment articles. In fact I can’t even find a copy of them.
The text for House Resolutions from 1/21 are not yet available. It should be available within the next few days.

Once the text is available, I think it will go to the Congressional Research Service for analysis. Then to the House Judiciary Committee for an instant death. The Committee may just kill it and skip the research. I'm not sure what leeway they have in that.

This was a resolution for impeachment, not a resolution for an investigation into impeachment, so it doesn't go to the House Rules Committee, which could begin an investigation. It goes straight to the Judiciary Committee where it will be voted down.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:06 PM   #28
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The crime is seditious conspiracy.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The crime is seditious conspiracy.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."
But plenty here are arguing impeachment is a political act distinct from the criminal code
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But plenty here are arguing impeachment is a political act distinct from the criminal code
But I was answering your question.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:31 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
But I was answering your question.
Are you just finding a crime that applies if this was a criminal case, or are you arguing that congress should evaluate it according to this statute?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:48 PM   #32
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The reason why someone would or would not vote to impeach boils down to
- what gets me reelected?
- what gets my party reelected?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 11:08 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you just finding a crime that applies if this was a criminal case, or are you arguing that congress should evaluate it according to this statute?

Both actually, and the House prosecutors should consider if Trump committed any other high crimes and misdemeanors.
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Old 24th January 2021, 04:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But plenty here are arguing impeachment is a political act distinct from the criminal code
Yes, and the political act culminates in a political vote.

What is the difficulty?
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Old 24th January 2021, 06:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, and the political act culminates in a political vote.

What is the difficulty?
I was replying to bobdroege7.

bobdroege7 has a stance that it should be approached using a criminal statute. You appear to not. That means my replies to one of you should not be read as a compatible with the other.

I have answered your difficulty question in an earlier post. Even though I'm talking to bobdroege7 based on bobdroege7's assumptions, the previous post which answers your question still applies. Changing my content to address a different person is not a reversal from my previous arguments for the politics-only group.
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Old 24th January 2021, 06:43 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you just finding a crime that applies if this was a criminal case, or are you arguing that congress should evaluate it according to this statute?
Why are you asking, why do you keep wanting to change the constitutional process of impeachment?
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Old 24th January 2021, 06:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why are you asking, why do you keep wanting to change the constitutional process of impeachment?
I'm asking a clarifying questions of bobdroege7's position to clarify bobdroege7's position. The constitution has nothing to do with me better understanding someone's position (first amendment maybe).
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Old 24th January 2021, 06:51 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm asking a clarifying questions of bobdroege7's position to clarify bobdroege7's position. The constitution has nothing to do with me better understanding someone's position (first amendment maybe).

The impeachment that is the topic of this thread is the impeachment contained in the constitution not some other form of impeachment. Why are you asking him about something not related to the topic of this thread that you started?
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Old 24th January 2021, 06:52 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The impeachment that is the topic of this thread is the impeachment contained in the constitution not some other form of impeachment. Why are you asking him about something not related to the topic of this thread that you started?
My business is my own and not for you to know.
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Old 24th January 2021, 07:03 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My business is my own and not for you to know.
Why did you post that non sequitur?
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