2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III - Page 42

Ziggurat · 3rd February 2020, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I am beginning to wonder if what happened in 1972 is not repeating itself where the GOP managed to damage the more viable Democratic candidates and ended up helping the nomination of a candidate who had no chance in November.

That was Hillary’s plan in 2016. Didn’t work out as expected.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd February 2020, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

They are still voters. It is foolish to expect to educate them, so they will take their low information to the ballot box. Candidates need to remember that instead of meaning something that the voters don't understand. ...

I don't expect to educate any low information voters out there.

I am though, trying to point out to some voters and posters in this thread who should not be low information voters that they've posted low-information-voter stereotypical statements.

I just want them to take a second look at their assumptions not supported by the evidence.

Belz... · 3rd February 2020, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

I have no idea, since you didn't tell me how you interpreted it.

It was a joke. Starting a bank might not be progressive. A blood bank might be more acceptable.

Belz... · 3rd February 2020, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Put all of the quotes together and yes, he has.

Quotes aren't mathematics. You can't add quotes that don't say what you want and then claim that they collectively do.

Admit it: your claim is based on interpreting dudalb's posts; reading between the lines i.e. adding information that isn't there. Now, you might be right that he thinks that, but you cannot show that he said it, because he didn't.

Quote:

I don't understand why, when the subject is x and you bring up y, you think me pointing out that y is irrelevant qualifies as a "challenge to a duel".

It's your reaction. Instead of just answering the question, as another poster did, you took it as some sort of an argument. It wasn't.

Belz... · 3rd February 2020, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

That’s bad news for Biden....

From Wikipedia:

Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism.

Can you imagine that today?

Sideroxylon · 3rd February 2020, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Is there anybody who could reunite the country at this point?

Biden' can't, and Bernie would divide it worse then ever, and not to confident about any of the other dem candidates be able to do that.
I am pessimistic. I am taking the relection of TRump as a given, and catastrophe to follow. I think the US people will just have to learn the Hard Way.

Yes, because running on justice and a fair system for ordinary Americans is divisive. Not because billionaire-run and backed media outlets will be running dumb socialist scare campaigns. Comes after the Bernie is unelectable ******** and the realisation that another centrist who maintains a system that benefits the uber wealthy is not what people want.

angrysoba · 3rd February 2020, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism.

Can you imagine that today?

Yes, I can. In fact, I can expect it to be dredged up again.

Of course, Trump actually made an entirely fraudulent university, but lucky for him, nobody cares.

angrysoba · 3rd February 2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't expect to educate any low information voters out there.

I am though, trying to point out to some voters and posters in this thread who should not be low information voters that they've posted low-information-voter stereotypical statements.

I just want them to take a second look at their assumptions not supported by the evidence.

I'm not sure who has said that. You could be right, though.

That said, the point is that making it a campaign issue is electoral suicide.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Yes, because running on justice and a fair system for ordinary Americans is divisive. Not because billionaire-run and backed media outlets will be running dumb socialist scare campaigns. Comes after the Bernie is unelectable ******** and the realisation that another centrist who maintains a system that benefits the uber wealthy is not what people want.

Americans want change, yes, but I don't think they want to turn into a Euro style Social Democratic state overnight.

I see Bernie just said he wants what amounts to a federal takeover of the power industry. That is the knd of thing that scares a lot of people who don't like Trump.

ANyway, your hatred of centrist and moderates is noted.

And I suspect you don't really like private business very much anyway.

Trebuchet · 3rd February 2020, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I am beginning to wonder if what happened in 1972 is not repeating itself where the GOP managed to damage the more viable Democratic candidates and ended up helping the nomination of a candidate who had no chance in November.

I was a bit out of touch in 1972, having been drafted and sent to South Korea to serve my country. News was scarce. I voted for Nixon. Because McGovern was a loon.

Meadmaker · 3rd February 2020, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism.

Can you imagine that today?

The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it.

It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism.

If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now.

However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim,

except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners.

That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about.

I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him.

I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I was a bit out of touch in 1972, having been drafted and sent to South Korea to serve my country. News was scarce. I voted for Nixon. Because McGovern was a loon.

The GOP played games in the Dem Primaries to discredit the more electable candidates. I suggest the GOP might be doing the same thing.

Sideroxylon · 3rd February 2020, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I think most American are not nearly as far to the left as you are, pal.

They want change, yes, but I don't think they want to turn into a Euro style Social Democratic state overnight.

I see Bernie just said he wants what amounts to a federal takeover of the power industry. That is the knd of thing that scares a lot of people who don't like Trump.

ANyway, your hatred of centrist and moderates is noted.

Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well.

The system is rigged and its time something was done.

theprestige · 3rd February 2020, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well.

The system is rigged and its time something was done.

Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system.

You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver.

Meadmaker · 3rd February 2020, 08:06 PM

Based on the returns, looks like I will have to learn to spell Buttigieg.

angrysoba · 3rd February 2020, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver.

That doesn't work for me. Obama got re-elected, after all. And he could have won a third term, probably, if he was eligible. Clinton wasn't that convincing as an Obama surrogate given that she had battled with him in the previous election.

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it.

It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism.

If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now.

However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim,

except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners.

That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about.

I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him.

I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger.

I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well.

The system is rigged and its time something was done.

Thanks for just confirming my opinion you just don't like and kind of private enterprise. You seem to want total state control of everything.

I think you are probably more radical then Bernie. Your spouting of the Marx surprise value crap shows that.

Meadmaker · 3rd February 2020, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me.

The worst thing about the plagiarism/fake ancestry story is that it won't play as well among Democrats as it will among the general population. In other words, it probably won't stop him from getting the nomination, but it might hurt his chances to beat Trump.

Which is ironic, given Trump and all, but voters are weird.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd February 2020, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I'm not sure who has said that. You could be right, though.

That said, the point is that making it a campaign issue is electoral suicide.

The main claim that set me off was claiming Steyer was the opposite of what he is:

Lumping him in with the corporate mess he's been working against for a decade because he's a billionaire

Assuming the article about foreclosure on car loans and the high interest mentioned was indicative of what the bank was about when that was not true

The interest rate was disturbing. That needs to be investigated. But it doesn't mean Steyer isn't what he says he is: against corporate influence in government.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it.

It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism.

If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now.

However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim,

except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners.

That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about.

I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him.

I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger.

As much as I hate to say it, Biden's very flawed past needs to come out now because it surely will in the general election.

Sideroxylon · 3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system.

You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver.

Bernie isn’t a Democrat.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me.

Sorry, but claiming that BIden is no better then Trump because of the plagiarism issue is a bit much.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Bernie isn’t a Democrat.

Then he is a hypocrite for running for the Democratic Party nomination. He is an outsider attempting a coup. Just like Donnie.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system.

You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver.

What total garbage.
Like the GOP Is not produced by "the system".

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The main claim that set me off was claiming Steyer was the opposite of what he is:

Lumping him in with the corporate mess he's been working against for a decade because he's a billionaire

Assuming the article about foreclosure on car loans and the high interest mentioned was indicative of what the bank was about when that was not true

The interest rate was disturbing. That needs to be investigated. But it doesn't mean Steyer isn't what he says he is: against corporate influence in government.

Which was not "the claim". I never said word one about him being a billionaire. I don't care about that. It was that he started a bank. Banks are not good, and people who start them are not doing a good thing for the public. It's not something a progressive would boast about.

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Sorry, but claiming that BIden is no better then Trump because of the plagiarism issue is a bit much.

I didn't claim he was "no better than Trump". I pointed out that they share a similarity, I didn't judge them by assessing the degree of their failings under that heading.

theprestige · 3rd February 2020, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me.

Biden, a career politician, has been corrupt for his entire career. People on this forum (who are outliers in every sense) talk about Trump's corruption. But Biden is the backdrop against which Trump parades on stage.

Everybody likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt. The reality is that most corruption is concealed behind an event horizon. Trump is a naked singularity of corruption. But even if you vote him out, the SMBH in Washington will remain.

Venom · 3rd February 2020, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I'm convinced, by the past half-dozen pages of this thread, that the Dems are screwed and Trump will be reelected.
In 2016, the R party didn't want Trump to be nominated, but when he did they bent over backward to support his every tweet.
D's aren't capable of doing that.

It's still early, but if we're going to play that game, I'm convinced based on what I've seen from actual voters in Iowa so far that Dems have a great chance to outvote Donald Trump.

Voters switching from Yang to Buttigieg, to Klobuchar, to Warren, and Sanders and Biden sharing a sizable portion of their voters. Just the turnout in the state right now is impressive.

Seems people really do want Trump out.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:28 PM

The more I think about, the more I am troubled by the idea of both our major parties being taken over by an outside coup.I wonder if we might not be looking at the end of the two party system in the US, with both major parties discredited in the eyes of many voters.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Which was not "the claim". I never said word one about him being a billionaire. I don't care about that. It was that he started a bank. Banks are not good, and people who start them are not doing a good thing for the public. It's not something a progressive would boast about.

And what would you replace them with?

Some banks are good, others bad, but they serve a needful purpose, unless you want to go to a system where the government totally controls finiances.
And that has been tried, and has failed miserably.

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Biden, a career politician, has been corrupt for his entire career. People on this forum (who are outliers in every sense) talk about Trump's corruption. But Biden is the backdrop against which Trump parades on stage.

Everybody likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt. The reality is that most corruption is concealed behind an event horizon. Trump is a naked singularity of corruption. But even if you vote him out, the SMBH in Washington will remain.

I'm not sure "being fake" equals "being corrupt" in the first place. Even if it did, there are degrees of corruption. The "senator from MBNA" may well be more desirable in office than a store-brand mafioso wannabe trying to "do deals" with Ukraine.

And I disagree that "everyone likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt". Some people are well aware of the problem but tolerate it, either because they can't do anything about it, or because they're willing to accept it in order to get other things. There was a recent kerfluffle in Congress about somebody accused of corruption, and one of the parties seemed to be okay with it anyway.

theprestige · 3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The more I think about, the more I am troubled by the idea of both our major parties being taken over by an outside coup.I wonder if we might not be looking at the end of the two party system in the US, with both major parties discredited in the eyes of many voters.

Tell us more about this outside coup.

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And what would you replace them with?

Some banks are good, others bad, but they serve a needful purpose, unless you want to go to a system where the government totally controls finiances.
And that has been tried, and has failed miserably.

With the thing I said in the original post that threw SG into such a froth: credit unions.

Meadmaker · 3rd February 2020, 08:33 PM

I wonder if Klobuchar will drop out. A fifth place finish doesn't bode well. I cant see her getting past Biden and Bloomberg for the center-left vote.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Biden, a career politician, has been corrupt for his entire career. People on this forum (who are outliers in every sense) talk about Trump's corruption. But Biden is the backdrop against which Trump parades on stage.

Everybody likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt. The reality is that most corruption is concealed behind an event horizon. Trump is a naked singularity of corruption. But even if you vote him out, the SMBH in Washington will remain.

AH, the your;re another attack.
And you admit that Trump is corrupt????

Venom · 3rd February 2020, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The more I think about, the more I am troubled by the idea of both our major parties being taken over by an outside coup.I wonder if we might not be looking at the end of the two party system in the US, with both major parties discredited in the eyes of many voters.

outside coup? Are you talking about more election meddling.

I sometimes imagine what would happen if Russia tried to or acted like it'd try to help Sanders or Biden against Trump. That'd cause a lot of confused outrage I think. And Trump, unlike Obama, would definitely call it out before the election was over and declare the election illegitimate.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

With the thing I said in the original post that threw SG into such a froth: credit unions.

Banks can do things Credit Unions cannot when it come to loans.
Something tells me you don't have a great knowledge of how the economy works.

dudalb · 3rd February 2020, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

outside coup? Are you talking about more election meddling.

I sometimes imagine what would happen if Russia tried to or acted like it'd try to help Sanders or Biden against Trump. That'd cause a lot of confused outrage I think. And Trump, unlike Obama, would definitely call it out before the election was over and declare the election illegitimate.

Nope that Bernie who has been an indepdent all his career, has all of a sudden become a Democrat...just like a certain ex reality show host.
One of his biggest backer here just bragged that Bernie was not a Democrat.

TragicMonkey · 3rd February 2020, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Banks can do things Credit Unions cannot.

And the reason for that is because the banks told the politicians how to write the laws to prevent the banks from losing more ground to credit unions. That unfair "system" the progressives want to fix? The banks are one of the creators of that system.

3rd February 2020, 07:14 PM	#1641
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,626	Originally Posted by dudalb I am beginning to wonder if what happened in 1972 is not repeating itself where the GOP managed to damage the more viable Democratic candidates and ended up helping the nomination of a candidate who had no chance in November. That was Hillary’s plan in 2016. Didn’t work out as expected.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd February 2020, 07:19 PM	#1643
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 92,027	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Perhaps I misunderstood your post. I have no idea, since you didn't tell me how you interpreted it. It was a joke. Starting a bank might not be progressive. A blood bank might be more acceptable.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

3rd February 2020, 07:21 PM	#1644
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 92,027	Originally Posted by Cabbage Put all of the quotes together and yes, he has. Quotes aren't mathematics. You can't add quotes that don't say what you want and then claim that they collectively do. Admit it: your claim is based on interpreting dudalb's posts; reading between the lines i.e. adding information that isn't there. Now, you might be right that he thinks that, but you cannot show that he said it, because he didn't. Quote: I don't understand why, when the subject is x and you bring up y, you think me pointing out that y is irrelevant qualifies as a "challenge to a duel". It's your reaction. Instead of just answering the question, as another poster did, you took it as some sort of an argument. It wasn't.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

3rd February 2020, 07:23 PM	#1645
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 92,027	Originally Posted by angrysoba That’s bad news for Biden.... From Wikipedia: Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism. Can you imagine that today?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

3rd February 2020, 07:34 PM	#1647
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,602	Originally Posted by Belz... Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism. Can you imagine that today? Yes, I can. In fact, I can expect it to be dredged up again. Of course, Trump actually made an entirely fraudulent university, but lucky for him, nobody cares.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

3rd February 2020, 07:18 PM	#1642
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,781	Originally Posted by angrysoba They are still voters. It is foolish to expect to educate them, so they will take their low information to the ballot box. Candidates need to remember that instead of meaning something that the voters don't understand. ... I don't expect to educate any low information voters out there. I am though, trying to point out to some voters and posters in this thread who should not be low information voters that they've posted low-information-voter stereotypical statements. I just want them to take a second look at their assumptions not supported by the evidence.

3rd February 2020, 07:27 PM	#1646
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,443	Originally Posted by dudalb Is there anybody who could reunite the country at this point? Biden' can't, and Bernie would divide it worse then ever, and not to confident about any of the other dem candidates be able to do that. I am pessimistic. I am taking the relection of TRump as a given, and catastrophe to follow. I think the US people will just have to learn the Hard Way. Yes, because running on justice and a fair system for ordinary Americans is divisive. Not because billionaire-run and backed media outlets will be running dumb socialist scare campaigns. Comes after the Bernie is unelectable ******** and the realisation that another centrist who maintains a system that benefits the uber wealthy is not what people want.

3rd February 2020, 07:35 PM	#1648
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,602	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I don't expect to educate any low information voters out there. I am though, trying to point out to some voters and posters in this thread who should not be low information voters that they've posted low-information-voter stereotypical statements. I just want them to take a second look at their assumptions not supported by the evidence. I'm not sure who has said that. You could be right, though. That said, the point is that making it a campaign issue is electoral suicide.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

3rd February 2020, 07:38 PM	#1649
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Yes, because running on justice and a fair system for ordinary Americans is divisive. Not because billionaire-run and backed media outlets will be running dumb socialist scare campaigns. Comes after the Bernie is unelectable ******** and the realisation that another centrist who maintains a system that benefits the uber wealthy is not what people want. Americans want change, yes, but I don't think they want to turn into a Euro style Social Democratic state overnight. I see Bernie just said he wants what amounts to a federal takeover of the power industry. That is the knd of thing that scares a lot of people who don't like Trump. ANyway, your hatred of centrist and moderates is noted. And I suspect you don't really like private business very much anyway.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 3rd February 2020 at 07:44 PM.

3rd February 2020, 07:45 PM	#1650
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,271	Originally Posted by dudalb I am beginning to wonder if what happened in 1972 is not repeating itself where the GOP managed to damage the more viable Democratic candidates and ended up helping the nomination of a candidate who had no chance in November. I was a bit out of touch in 1972, having been drafted and sent to South Korea to serve my country. News was scarce. I voted for Nixon. Because McGovern was a loon.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

3rd February 2020, 07:47 PM	#1651
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,477	Originally Posted by Belz... Withdrew his candidacy due to school plagiarism. Can you imagine that today? The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it. It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism. If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now. However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim, except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners. That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about. I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him. I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger.

3rd February 2020, 07:47 PM	#1652
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I was a bit out of touch in 1972, having been drafted and sent to South Korea to serve my country. News was scarce. I voted for Nixon. Because McGovern was a loon. The GOP played games in the Dem Primaries to discredit the more electable candidates. I suggest the GOP might be doing the same thing.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 07:48 PM	#1653
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,443	Originally Posted by dudalb I think most American are not nearly as far to the left as you are, pal. They want change, yes, but I don't think they want to turn into a Euro style Social Democratic state overnight. I see Bernie just said he wants what amounts to a federal takeover of the power industry. That is the knd of thing that scares a lot of people who don't like Trump. ANyway, your hatred of centrist and moderates is noted. Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well. The system is rigged and its time something was done.

3rd February 2020, 08:03 PM	#1654
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,556	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well. The system is rigged and its time something was done. Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system. You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver.

3rd February 2020, 08:06 PM	#1655
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,477	Based on the returns, looks like I will have to learn to spell Buttigieg.

3rd February 2020, 08:07 PM	#1656
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,602	Originally Posted by theprestige You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver. That doesn't work for me. Obama got re-elected, after all. And he could have won a third term, probably, if he was eligible. Clinton wasn't that convincing as an Obama surrogate given that she had battled with him in the previous election.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

3rd February 2020, 08:08 PM	#1657
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,723	Originally Posted by Meadmaker The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it. It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism. If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now. However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim, except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners. That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about. I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him. I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger. I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd February 2020, 08:12 PM	#1658
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Hatred of a system that benefits the one percent who feed these kinds of narratives through the media corporations they own. A passion for a fairer world where workers get a fair slice of the pie and the end to obscene paychecks and bonuses to those who benefit from their sweat. A world where quality healthcare and life sustaining drugs are a right. A world where kids get fed and educated equally well. The system is rigged and its time something was done. Thanks for just confirming my opinion you just don't like and kind of private enterprise. You seem to want total state control of everything. I think you are probably more radical then Bernie. Your spouting of the Marx surprise value crap shows that.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 08:17 PM	#1659
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,477	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me. The worst thing about the plagiarism/fake ancestry story is that it won't play as well among Democrats as it will among the general population. In other words, it probably won't stop him from getting the nomination, but it might hurt his chances to beat Trump. Which is ironic, given Trump and all, but voters are weird.

3rd February 2020, 08:18 PM	#1660
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,781	Originally Posted by angrysoba I'm not sure who has said that. You could be right, though. That said, the point is that making it a campaign issue is electoral suicide. The main claim that set me off was claiming Steyer was the opposite of what he is: Lumping him in with the corporate mess he's been working against for a decade because he's a billionaire Assuming the article about foreclosure on car loans and the high interest mentioned was indicative of what the bank was about when that was not true The interest rate was disturbing. That needs to be investigated. But it doesn't mean Steyer isn't what he says he is: against corporate influence in government.

3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM	#1661
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,781	Originally Posted by Meadmaker The media totally flubbed that story when it broke, and apparently never got it. It was all over the media. Plagiarism, plagiarism, plagiarism. If you're a journalist, plagiarism probably seemed like a big deal, and they reported that that was the issue. In truth, no one cared then, and no one cares now. However, one of the speeches Biden plagiarized was a speech by a Briton by the name of Neil Kinnock. In that speech, Kinnock talked about his ancestors who were coal miners. Biden used the same lines, nearly verbatim, except, Biden's ancestors weren't coal miners. That, the fact that he plagiarized ancestors, was what creeped people out about Biden. The fact that he didn't give credit to the original writer of the speech is something that only a reporter would care about. I think it was sufficiently creepy that it will hurt him this time around as well, but I would still vote for him. I wish that one of his Democratic rivals would bring it up, just to see if it's still an issue that will linger. As much as I hate to say it, Biden's very flawed past needs to come out now because it surely will in the general election.

3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM	#1662
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,443	Originally Posted by theprestige Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system. You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver. Bernie isn’t a Democrat.

3rd February 2020, 08:21 PM	#1663
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me. Sorry, but claiming that BIden is no better then Trump because of the plagiarism issue is a bit much.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 08:22 PM	#1664
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Bernie isn’t a Democrat. Then he is a hypocrite for running for the Democratic Party nomination. He is an outsider attempting a coup. Just like Donnie.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 3rd February 2020 at 08:27 PM.

3rd February 2020, 08:24 PM	#1665
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by theprestige Voting Democrat isn't doing something, though. It's just giving the keys to the system to a different faction. A faction produced by the system. A faction that is sheltered and nurtured by the system. You know why Obama got elected? He promised Change. You know why Trump got elected? Because Obama didn't deliver. What total garbage. Like the GOP Is not produced by "the system".
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 08:24 PM	#1666
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,723	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger The main claim that set me off was claiming Steyer was the opposite of what he is: Lumping him in with the corporate mess he's been working against for a decade because he's a billionaire Assuming the article about foreclosure on car loans and the high interest mentioned was indicative of what the bank was about when that was not true The interest rate was disturbing. That needs to be investigated. But it doesn't mean Steyer isn't what he says he is: against corporate influence in government. Which was not "the claim". I never said word one about him being a billionaire. I don't care about that. It was that he started a bank. Banks are not good, and people who start them are not doing a good thing for the public. It's not something a progressive would boast about.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd February 2020, 08:25 PM	#1667
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,723	Originally Posted by dudalb Sorry, but claiming that BIden is no better then Trump because of the plagiarism issue is a bit much. I didn't claim he was "no better than Trump". I pointed out that they share a similarity, I didn't judge them by assessing the degree of their failings under that heading.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd February 2020, 08:26 PM	#1668
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,556	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I think it's a good demonstration of Biden's character: he's a fake, who will say anything to try to look appealing to the public. And it wasn't just the one incident, either, he's been caught plagiarizing multiple times. He kept on doing it, too, which again speaks to his character: he either doesn't learn from his mistakes or he simply thinks he can get away with them. How many other scruples does he lack? We've already got a president without shame, the prospect of another one doesn't appeal to me. Biden, a career politician, has been corrupt for his entire career. People on this forum (who are outliers in every sense) talk about Trump's corruption. But Biden is the backdrop against which Trump parades on stage. Everybody likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt. The reality is that most corruption is concealed behind an event horizon. Trump is a naked singularity of corruption. But even if you vote him out, the SMBH in Washington will remain.

3rd February 2020, 08:26 PM	#1669
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,958	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I'm convinced, by the past half-dozen pages of this thread, that the Dems are screwed and Trump will be reelected. In 2016, the R party didn't want Trump to be nominated, but when he did they bent over backward to support his every tweet. D's aren't capable of doing that. It's still early, but if we're going to play that game, I'm convinced based on what I've seen from actual voters in Iowa so far that Dems have a great chance to outvote Donald Trump. Voters switching from Yang to Buttigieg, to Klobuchar, to Warren, and Sanders and Biden sharing a sizable portion of their voters. Just the turnout in the state right now is impressive. Seems people really do want Trump out.

3rd February 2020, 08:28 PM	#1670
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	The more I think about, the more I am troubled by the idea of both our major parties being taken over by an outside coup.I wonder if we might not be looking at the end of the two party system in the US, with both major parties discredited in the eyes of many voters.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM	#1671
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,493	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Which was not "the claim". I never said word one about him being a billionaire. I don't care about that. It was that he started a bank. Banks are not good, and people who start them are not doing a good thing for the public. It's not something a progressive would boast about. And what would you replace them with? Some banks are good, others bad, but they serve a needful purpose, unless you want to go to a system where the government totally controls finiances. And that has been tried, and has failed miserably.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM	#1672
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,723	Originally Posted by theprestige Biden, a career politician, has been corrupt for his entire career. People on this forum (who are outliers in every sense) talk about Trump's corruption. But Biden is the backdrop against which Trump parades on stage. Everybody likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt. The reality is that most corruption is concealed behind an event horizon. Trump is a naked singularity of corruption. But even if you vote him out, the SMBH in Washington will remain. I'm not sure "being fake" equals "being corrupt" in the first place. Even if it did, there are degrees of corruption. The "senator from MBNA" may well be more desirable in office than a store-brand mafioso wannabe trying to "do deals" with Ukraine. And I disagree that "everyone likes to pretend their politician isn't corrupt". Some people are well aware of the problem but tolerate it, either because they can't do anything about it, or because they're willing to accept it in order to get other things. There was a recent kerfluffle in Congress about somebody accused of corruption, and one of the parties seemed to be okay with it anyway.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd February 2020, 08:31 PM	#1673
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,556	Originally Posted by dudalb The more I think about, the more I am troubled by the idea of both our major parties being taken over by an outside coup.I wonder if we might not be looking at the end of the two party system in the US, with both major parties discredited in the eyes of many voters. Tell us more about this outside coup.

3rd February 2020, 08:32 PM	#1674
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,723	Originally Posted by dudalb And what would you replace them with? Some banks are good, others bad, but they serve a needful purpose, unless you want to go to a system where the government totally controls finiances. And that has been tried, and has failed miserably. With the thing I said in the original post that threw SG into such a froth: credit unions.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd February 2020, 08:33 PM	#1675
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,477	I wonder if Klobuchar will drop out. A fifth place finish doesn't bode well. I cant see her getting past Biden and Bloomberg for the center-left vote.