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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:23 PM   #3241
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So in your mind eliminating the split vote that Sanders benefits from is "spoiling his chance"?
I think that's the way it's intended, yes. Do you have an alternate theory?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:26 PM   #3242
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Looks like Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out in the hopes their voters will support Biden and should he win they get a seat in his administration.....
How do you know that?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:35 PM   #3243
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I think that's the way it's intended, yes. Do you have an alternate theory?
Hmm, my post disappeared. Fortunately it was short.

You are defining "spoiling" differently than I do. Spoiling means what you care about is ruining for someone.

As opposed to endorsing Biden because he's closest to your own ideals.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:45 PM   #3244
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Spoiling means what you care about is ruining for someone.

As opposed to endorsing Biden because he's closest to your own ideals.
... and doing so just in time to ruin Sander's lead.

I thought the accusations of bias against Sanders in 2016 were overblown, but the Democratic establishment is really pissing themselves trying to keep him from getting nominated this go-round.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:47 PM   #3245
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Anyone notice that the more Sanders feels he is certain to win, the more he speaks out about the Democratic Party being 'other', not one of his crowd?

It's not smart, seeing everyone as your enemy instead of building bridges with people whose support might be important later.

CNN: Bernie Sanders just declared war on the Democratic establishment
Quote:
Bernie Sanders took his long-running fight with the Democratic Party establishment very public Friday night, hours after news broke that Russia is working to help his 2020 primary bid and hours before the critical Nevada caucuses.

"I've got news for the Republican establishment," the Vermont senator tweeted on Friday night. "I've got news for the Democratic establishment. They can't stop us."
It's not helpful.

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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:51 PM   #3246
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
... and doing so just in time to ruin Sander's lead.

I thought the accusations of bias against Sanders in 2016 were overblown, but the Democratic establishment is really pissing themselves trying to keep him from getting nominated this go-round.
You're doing the same thing as Cabbage. The opposition to Sanders is split. Some drop out and combine with the front runner of the same opposition and somehow you think that's unfair?

Does it worry or bother people when Sanders simply doesn't have the majority and it becomes an issue?

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Old 2nd March 2020, 09:59 PM   #3247
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're doing the same thing as Cabbage. The opposition to Sanders is split. Some drop out and combine with the front runner of the same opposition and somehow you think that's unfair?
People who have spent millions of dollars trying to be elected President are giving up just before the single biggest day in the trying-to-be-President process. What that tells me is not that they want to endorse Biden, but that they really really really don't want Sanders to win, to the extent that they will sacrifice whatever remote chance they might have had to further tilt the odds against him.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:18 PM   #3248
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
People who have spent millions of dollars trying to be elected President are giving up just before the single biggest day in the trying-to-be-President process. What that tells me is not that they want to endorse Biden, but that they really really really don't want Sanders to win, to the extent that they will sacrifice whatever remote chance they might have had to further tilt the odds against him.
I don't think it's either one of those options. Like Steyer said, he didn't see a path to the nomination. They have their own pollsters so have some idea ahead of time how they will do on Tuesday.

You drop out, of course you want to support the candidate you prefer.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:28 PM   #3249
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
People who have spent millions of dollars trying to be elected President are giving up just before the single biggest day in the trying-to-be-President process. What that tells me is not that they want to endorse Biden, but that they really really really don't want Sanders to win, to the extent that they will sacrifice whatever remote chance they might have had to further tilt the odds against him.
Buttigieg would have sat in a room with strategists who have run the numbers and it wouldn’t have added up. No sunken cost mindset but save money, time and face by not rolling the dice at what looked like slim chances.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:30 PM   #3250
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think it's either one of those options. Like Steyer said, he didn't see a path to the nomination. They have their own pollsters so have some idea ahead of time how they will do on Tuesday.

You drop out, of course you want to support the candidate you prefer.
Steyer, Kamala, et al. didn't drop out right before a big election and immediately endorse someone.

I don't think it is unfair or anything, but it is pretty clear what they are doing with the recent drop-outs and endorsements. Though for Warren it probably does seem unfair.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:43 PM   #3251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sanders gets asked about Cuba because he likes to talk about Cuba.

And for thirty-five years, he's been singing the same refrain: Castro was a dictator, but he did good stuff for his people. That's why he gets asked about Cuba.
Even in that article, while he does downplay Castro's crimes by not specifically calling them out, nothing he said there supports your claim that he was pushing Cuba as a model for social policy. Going by the article, his comments were more in line with...

Quote:
Sanders also commented on Fidel Castro, pointing to the lack of resistance to Castro as proof that Americans would be "very, very mistaken" to expect a popular uprising against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

"In 1959 [...] everybody was totally convinced that Castro was the worst guy in the world and all of the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro," said Sanders. "They forgot that he educated their kids, gave their kids healthcare, totally transformed the society."
In short, many of his claims come down to effectively acknowledging that the world is complex - and that the generally right-leaning media often pushes narratives that are overly simplistic and biased, as well as being easily influenced by certain bad faith actors.

Going further, is his limited support for left-wing authoritarian governments problematic? Yes, but, by the look of it, I quite think that it's overemphasized and the points that he was actually making are largely ignored by the critics in favor of different, much easier to attack ones that he wasn't actually making.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Buttigieg did Biden a pretty good solid by dropping out of the race. He realized that he and Joe were splitting votes, allowing Bernie to show better.
To poke at numbers, again, the second choice of Buttigieg supporters, at last check, starting from the most was Bernie, then Warren, then Biden, then Bloomberg... and all those were pretty close to 20%. The whole "moderates lane" narrative is pretty close to BS in reality. With that said, Buttigieg and Klobuchar endorsing Biden and handing over their delegates to Biden is a pretty good solid, even if dropping out was of more limited value. Still, that might be enough to help get other candidates over the "gets any delegates at all" hump in some states.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Perhaps I have made a mistake and got some wires crossed. Somehow I got the impression that JoeMorgue was one of the ones misrepresenting Sanders statements on Cuba. I can't find that so I guess I was wrong.

My sincere apologies for that, but I continue to stand by my other accusations of Joe's credibility.
You refer, perhaps, to this -

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Arguing for anti-smoking policies is one thing, pointing out out of nowhere without being prompted that the Nazis "did some bad things but they did stop smoking in public" is another.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:53 PM   #3252
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Lets hope Sanders has a big Super Tuesday. Bring on a fair and compassionate America.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:00 PM   #3253
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Lets hope Sanders has a big Super Tuesday. Bring on a fair and compassionate America.
Here's hoping that Warren makes the strong comeback that her recent second place polling suggests that she should.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:02 PM   #3254
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Buttigieg would have sat in a room with strategists who have run the numbers and it wouldn’t have added up. No sunken cost mindset but save money, time and face by not rolling the dice at what looked like slim chances.
The time to do that would've been after a failure on Super Tuesday. It wouldn't have cost much to coast for a week and see if the slim chance appeared. The only reason to call it quits the day before is if you need to shift your supporters to someone else before it's too late.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:23 PM   #3255
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hmm, my post disappeared. Fortunately it was short.

You are defining "spoiling" differently than I do. Spoiling means what you care about is ruining for someone.

As opposed to endorsing Biden because he's closest to your own ideals.

Quite possibly. I'm not intending any pro/con Sanders sentiments with my claim. For me, spoiling just means "Hurting the chances" (what you or I care about is irrelevant); I'm not trying to pass any judgment on it. Just stating the strategy as I see it. They very well could be doing it because Biden is closest to their ideals; they're still spoiling Sanders' chance.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:27 PM   #3256
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Anyone notice that the more Sanders feels he is certain to win, the more he speaks out about the Democratic Party being 'other', not one of his crowd?

I haven't noticed that, but I'm not challenging or doubting you. I honestly don't see how you can really blame him, though, with all the talk about preventive measures to keep him away from the nomination. Do you honestly think it's wrong for him to express his opinion on these issues? They are taking measure to try and stop him! Do you really also demand he simply shut his mouth and take it?
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:28 PM   #3257
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're doing the same thing as Cabbage. The opposition to Sanders is split. Some drop out and combine with the front runner of the same opposition and somehow you think that's unfair?

Does it worry or bother people when Sanders simply doesn't have the majority and it becomes an issue?

I challenge you to quote me where I said it was unfair. Didn't you just post about our different definitions of spoiler? I thought then you understood what I was saying.

Evidently not....
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:32 PM   #3258
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think it's either one of those options. Like Steyer said, he didn't see a path to the nomination. They have their own pollsters so have some idea ahead of time how they will do on Tuesday.

You drop out, of course you want to support the candidate you prefer.

But you're ignoring the fact that: They can just coast through Super Tuesday without spending another dime, wait to see how they do then (possibly a miracle? Why not wait 24 hours for free for that possibility?) and then announce Wednesday if they don't receive any good news.

Everything to gain with literally nothing to lose....and yet they toss it all, without even waiting to see tomorrow's results.

Makes no sense--unless they're trying to block Bernie.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:35 PM   #3259
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
You refer, perhaps, to this -

Actually, yeah, that is a good catch for what I was looking for.

Thanks!
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Old 2nd March 2020, 11:56 PM   #3260
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The time to do that would've been after a failure on Super Tuesday. It wouldn't have cost much to coast for a week and see if the slim chance appeared. The only reason to call it quits the day before is if you need to shift your supporters to someone else before it's too late.
Warren is leaving it late.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 12:56 AM   #3261
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Warren is leaving it late.
Warren's pretty likely to persist until the end, regardless, unless something significantly changes.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 01:28 AM   #3262
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren's pretty likely to persist until the end, regardless, unless something significantly changes.
Yes. My response was flippant.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 07:39 AM   #3263
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How do you know that?
I don't, but as Sondland said, 2 + 2 = 4
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Old 3rd March 2020, 08:39 AM   #3264
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How do you know that?
He doesn't know that. He said it looks like it.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 08:42 AM   #3265
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Anyone notice that the more Sanders feels he is certain to win, the more he speaks out about the Democratic Party being 'other', not one of his crowd?

It's not smart, seeing everyone as your enemy instead of building bridges with people whose support might be important later.

CNN: Bernie Sanders just declared war on the Democratic establishment

It's not helpful.
He has been seen as the other to the Democratic Party and enemy for a while now. Might as well lean into it.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:21 AM   #3266
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
He has been seen as the other to the Democratic Party and enemy for a while now. Might as well lean into it.
It's weird how Democratic candidates seem to have their Chosen One Moment at the worst possible time.

Hillary Moment 1.0: Nope, sorry. Barack Obama.

Bernie Moment 1.0: Nope, sorry. Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Moment 2.0: Nope, sorry. Donald Trump.

Bernie Moment 2.0: Seriously dude? Can it please be any time other than this one election cycle?

Biden Moment: Nope, sorry. That ship sailed 20 years ago.

---

ETA: Regarding Bernie, what I mean is there is definitely a time and a place for a national political party to do some soul searching, fight some internal battles, yank their Overton window one way or the other. The moderate wing and the progressive wing can certainly have it out, and have the Democratic party emerge better for it.

But it seems to me that this election is strategically about defeating Trump, not about resetting the party. For the lead candidate to lean into his existential conflict with the party he's running under... Seems counter-productive. Bernie sees this as his chance at the Moment. The party needs him to see it as his chance to rescue the party.

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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:22 AM   #3267
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
But you're ignoring the fact that: They can just coast through Super Tuesday without spending another dime, wait to see how they do then (possibly a miracle? Why not wait 24 hours for free for that possibility?) and then announce Wednesday if they don't receive any good news.

Everything to gain with literally nothing to lose....and yet they toss it all, without even waiting to see tomorrow's results.

Makes no sense--unless they're trying to block Bernie.
Actually a lot to lose... Maybe they are actually honorable democrats who actually see the danger in having Trump in power, and want to resign because, even if they could stick around and hope for a miracle (without it costing anything, they recognize that its more valuable to the country to have the democrats coalesce around a front runner early on.

Compare that to Bernie in the 2016 primaries, where he dragged things out almost to the bitter end, leading to deep divisions that probably affected the Democrat's ability to take on Trump.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:26 AM   #3268
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Quote:
Anyone notice that the more Sanders feels he is certain to win, the more he speaks out about the Democratic Party being 'other', not one of his crowd?
He has been seen as the other to the Democratic Party and enemy for a while now. Might as well lean into it.
Uhhh... no. He may end up being the Democratic nominee. He will need all possible resources to battle Trump. Pissing off a good chunk of those resources is not the way to go.

The proper solution is to, well, appear presidential. Be above the fray. "They are attacking me, but I will not stoop to such pointless rhetoric". The U.S. has already had 3 years of a president who "leans into things" and attacks people that have slighted him. I don't think they want another 4 years of a Democrat doing the same.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:31 AM   #3269
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually a lot to lose... Maybe they are actually honorable democrats who actually see the danger in having Trump in power, and want to resign because, even if they could stick around and hope for a miracle (without it costing anything, they recognize that its more valuable to the country to have the democrats coalesce around a front runner early on.

Compare that to Bernie in the 2016 primaries, where he dragged things out almost to the bitter end, leading to deep divisions that probably affected the Democrat's ability to take on Trump.
It does seem to only be the Sanders supporters that don't see these drop-outs as being an effort to defeat Trump on behalf of the 60 plus % of the Party that clearly thinks Sanders is unlikely to be able to deliver that.

They can't see it as an effort to get the best candidate who has a realistic chance out front, but seemingly only as an effort to "block Bernie".
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:36 AM   #3270
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I just voted for Biden. To win an election against your crazy uncle, it's best nut to run your other crazy uncle against him.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:43 AM   #3271
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Quote:
Actually a lot to lose... Maybe they are actually honorable democrats who actually see the danger in having Trump in power, and want to resign because, even if they could stick around and hope for a miracle (without it costing anything, they recognize that its more valuable to the country to have the democrats coalesce around a front runner early on.
It does seem to only be the Sanders supporters that don't see these drop-outs as being an effort to defeat Trump on behalf of the 60 plus % of the Party that clearly thinks Sanders is unlikely to be able to deliver that.

They can't see it as an effort to get the best candidate who has a realistic chance out front, but seemingly only as an effort to "block Bernie".
Heck, even if Sanders does eventually win the nomination... it will be better for the party as a whole to be as united as possible (even behind a candidate that many may not like) rather than go into the convention with a divided party and end up with a brokered convention.

The eventual winner should ideally have a majority of the voters and delegates hind them before the convention (not just a plurality).
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:50 AM   #3272
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Compare that to Bernie in the 2016 primaries, where he dragged things out almost to the bitter end, leading to deep divisions that probably affected the Democrat's ability to take on Trump.
What? He stayed in because it was a 2 person race. Once there was no longer a way for him to win, he dropped out and campaigned for her at like 40 events.

Your comparison is ridiculous
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:56 AM   #3273
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I wonder how many of the Bernie Supporters active on this board now buy some variation on the "The DNC rigged the 2016 primaries to get Hillary the nomination" conspiracy?

Way, way too much this is reading like righting the wrongs of 2016 which... not the time people.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 09:58 AM   #3274
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//Doublepost//

/hijack/ Is anyone else doubleposting a lot more then normal lately, and not just in the long threads?
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:08 AM   #3275
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I just voted for Biden. To win an election against your crazy uncle, it's best nut to run your other crazy uncle against him.
And dementia is not the same as crazy.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:09 AM   #3276
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Quote:
Compare that to Bernie in the 2016 primaries, where he dragged things out almost to the bitter end, leading to deep divisions that probably affected the Democrat's ability to take on Trump.
What? He stayed in because it was a 2 person race. Once there was no longer a way for him to win, he dropped out and campaigned for her at like 40 events.

Your comparison is ridiculous
Yes, Sanders dropped out when he was numerically eliminated.

However, he could have dropped out much sooner (for example in May)... after Clinton had built a significant lead by winning states like New York, Florida and Texas, and was leading in the polls in some of the larger remaining states such as California. At that point, Sanders wasn't numerically eliminated, but it would have truly taken a miracle to win.

It was harmful to the Democrats for him to continue past that point.

And yes, he did campaign for Hillary afterwards... good for him. Doesn't mean him sticking in the race as long as he did wasn't harmful to the cause.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:32 AM   #3277
Brainster
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Warren's pretty likely to persist until the end, regardless, unless something significantly changes.
I know she said she would, but she's going to have to drop out, probably tomorrow or the next day. I think she's sticking it out today just in case she wins Massachusetts and picks up some delegates, but she will still drop out even if that happens.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:39 AM   #3278
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I wonder how many of the Bernie Supporters active on this board now buy some variation on the "The DNC rigged the 2016 primaries to get Hillary the nomination" conspiracy?

Way, way too much this is reading like righting the wrongs of 2016 which... not the time people.
It's like the Oscars.

"You don't deserve Best Picture this year, but we're giving it to you anyway because you deserved it last year and we gave it to someone who didn't deserve it because we shafted them the year before when they did deserve it."
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:54 AM   #3279
Beelzebuddy
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It does seem to only be the Sanders supporters that don't see these drop-outs as being an effort to defeat Trump on behalf of the 60 plus % of the Party that clearly thinks Sanders is unlikely to be able to deliver that.

They can't see it as an effort to get the best candidate who has a realistic chance out front, but seemingly only as an effort to "block Bernie".
Because it's done by blocking Bernie. I don't see why that is so hard to understand. The Democratic Party might have the best of intentions in blocking Bernie, but they are still blocking Bernie. It sure seems funny to me that for such a divisive candidate who is doomed to lose to Trump, it's taking the combined weight of "60 plus %" of the party to keep him from even being given the chance.
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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:58 AM   #3280
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It does seem to only be the Sanders supporters that don't see these drop-outs as being an effort to defeat Trump on behalf of the 60 plus % of the Party that clearly thinks Sanders is unlikely to be able to deliver that.

They can't see it as an effort to get the best candidate who has a realistic chance out front, but seemingly only as an effort to "block Bernie".
They assume Bernie is less likely to win against Trump, Bernie supporters assume Biden is less likely to win against Trump. Both sides are engaging in a similar rationalization, but with different opinions about who is more electable in the general.

I think everyone recognizes that a brokered convention is bad for whoever emerges victorious. Much better for the field to narrow soon and having a candidate win an outright majority and save the party a nasty squabble at the convention.

I am withholding judgement of Warren until after Super Tuesday. Unless she has a miracle at the ballot box today, she should drop out.
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