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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 4th March 2020, 11:42 AM   #3441
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Quote:
Bernie is attacking the very people whose help he will need to win in November if he gets the nomination.
And again this is my biggest issue. It's not even like he doesn't understand that openly insulting and being hostile to the very people he's demanding help him isn't a good idea, it's that he completely understands it's a bad idea but doesn't care because he thinks such piddling human concerns don't apply to him because he has "morals."
Between Sanders attacking "Democratic Elites", and the whole "Cuba wasn't all bad... they can read gooder than before", Sanders seems to be completely tone-deaf when it comes to politics.

Its not a good sign, even if he does manage to win the nomination.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:44 AM   #3442
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Warren is "reassessing" her campaign.
Time to get a betting pool started on how long until she quits. I think she will be gone by Friday.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:45 AM   #3443
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But maybe "fresh" isn't the right word. Williamson and Mayor Pete both seemed pretty fresh, but not fresh enough. Or maybe it's that unlike Obama and Trump, they lack the "powerful" ingredient?
It seemed like Williamson was onto something powerful, or maybe just potent?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When a smart person does something that doesn't make sense to you (like Warren staying in the race despite not having a chance and hurting Bernie), don't assume that they're being stupid. Instead, consider that maybe you don't understand what their actual goal is.

I don't know what Warren's goal is, but it may not be making sure a progressive wins the nomination.
Good advice.
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:56 AM   #3444
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Warren is "reassessing" her campaign.
Time to get a betting pool started on how long until she quits. I think she will be gone by Friday.
Damn it. My state's primary is next Tuesday. I wanted to get a chance to vote for a candidate I actually like at least once!
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Old 4th March 2020, 11:58 AM   #3445
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Warren is "reassessing" her campaign.
Damn it. My state's primary is next Tuesday. I wanted to get a chance to vote for a candidate I actually like at least once!
She'll still probably be on the ballot, so you can still vote for her.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:01 PM   #3446
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
She'll still probably be on the ballot, so you can still vote for her.
The Ballots have been probably been printed for a couple of months now.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:04 PM   #3447
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Bernie should have a good chance next week: Michigan, Washington, Idaho and North Dakota are voting. It looks like he's pretty much getting skunked in the South, so Mississipi is no chance and I suspect Missouri is out of reach as well.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:09 PM   #3448
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If Sanders had been successful at builing a nationwide coalition of voters who want the same things he wants, there would be no Mitch McConnell to contend with.

That doesn't follow. Distribution among states is an issue as well. It also assumes there isn't another nationwide coalition of voters fighting against him--There can be two or more with competing interests, you know.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:11 PM   #3449
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Damn it. My state's primary is next Tuesday. I wanted to get a chance to vote for a candidate I actually like at least once!
Well, I expect that the ballots are already printed, so you will still be able to vote for her.

But if not, then I suggest that you look into a "write-in candidate". I think that every state allows for write-ins for those who are not actually listed on the ballot.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #3450
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think anyone is blaming Sanders for not compromising with McConnell.

I think the point is, Sanders has not been successful at building the kind of voting bloc that can effectively press his policy at the national level.

And I'm still pointing out that McConnell and the GOP have engaged in an unprecedented level of obstructionism. You can't just hand wave that away and pretend it's Sanders fault for overcoming that obstruction; place the blame where it clearly lies.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:18 PM   #3451
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
First of all, your argument seems to come down to "whataboutism"... "Bernie and supporters were treated bad, so its ok for Bernie to treat others bad". Not exactly an argument that is very smart to make.
I specifically refer to the comment "Pissing off a good chunk of those resources is not the way to go." It's not whataboutism to point out that ostracizing Bernie does precisely that to his supporters; that's a fact and you should not ignore it.

Quote:
Secondly, we aren't talking about some individual posters on some on-line forum. We are talking about the activities of the party leaders. Sanders himself is painting things as an "us or them" in an attack against certain democrats. Maybe I overlooked it, but I don't recall either Hillary (in 2016) or any of the current Democratic front runners claiming that Democrats who support Sanders are somehow "not democrats".

I honestly can't blame him when you get people like Chris Matthews, for example, comparing one of his primary wins with the Nazi invasion of France. I really don't see how you can blame someone for fighting back against that sort of outrageous rhetoric.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:19 PM   #3452
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Damn it. My state's primary is next Tuesday. I wanted to get a chance to vote for a candidate I actually like at least once!
Damn. Now you'll just have to vote for one you'll be happy with.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:21 PM   #3453
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Damn. Now you'll just have to vote for one you'll be happy with.
My happiness is unconnected to politics so there is no such candidate.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:24 PM   #3454
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My happiness is unconnected to politics so there is no such candidate.
You'll abstain, then?

(also, in the other thread you mentioned 'happy', which is what this was supposed to be a joke about, but now I'm confused.)
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:28 PM   #3455
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Quote:
First of all, your argument seems to come down to "whataboutism"... "Bernie and supporters were treated bad, so its ok for Bernie to treat others bad". Not exactly an argument that is very smart to make.
I specifically refer to the comment "Pissing off a good chunk of those resources is not the way to go." It's not whataboutism to point out that ostracizing Bernie does precisely that to his supporters; that's a fact and you should not ignore it.
Saying "We would rather not have Bernie as a candidate" is not the same as "Bernie is evil and so are his supporters".
Quote:
Quote:
Secondly, we aren't talking about some individual posters on some on-line forum. We are talking about the activities of the party leaders. Sanders himself is painting things as an "us or them" in an attack against certain democrats. Maybe I overlooked it, but I don't recall either Hillary (in 2016) or any of the current Democratic front runners claiming that Democrats who support Sanders are somehow "not democrats".
I honestly can't blame him when you get people like Chris Matthews, for example, comparing one of his primary wins with the Nazi invasion of France. I really don't see how you can blame someone for fighting back against that sort of outrageous rhetoric.
I must have missed it... when did Chris Matthews become a major Democratic leader?

Yup... just what we want from a Democratic nominee for president: Someone who gets slighted and then lashes out against everyone. Reminds me of someone, but I can't remember who...
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:32 PM   #3456
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'll abstain, then?

(also, in the other thread you mentioned 'happy', which is what this was supposed to be a joke about, but now I'm confused.)
Why would I abstain? Pursuit of happiness isn't the only motivation for every action.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:34 PM   #3457
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why would I abstain? Pursuit of happiness isn't the only motivation for every action.
I figure, between instant gratification, deferred gratification, and profitable compromise, "pursuit of happiness" covers pretty much every possible motivation.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:35 PM   #3458
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why would I abstain? Pursuit of happiness isn't the only motivation for every action.
Who said anything about pursuit of happiness? You said earlier today that 'happy' meant 'ok with' in this context.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:37 PM   #3459
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I figure, between instant gratification, deferred gratification, and profitable compromise, "pursuit of happiness" covers pretty much every possible motivation.
I disagree. There is also stern duty, which should take precedence over selfish desires.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:38 PM   #3460
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I can't see the future, of course, but Biden, with all his flaws,..and he is a long way from being my first choice ... has a much better chance of beating Trump then Sanders does.
Sorry, but Bernie has way more charisma than Biden.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:38 PM   #3461
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A continued run could only be explained as vanity or as an effort to split the progressive vote and undercut Bernie.
No.

But then, I got tired of hearing this half-assed line of argument long ago. Of course, had Warren listened to people like you back then, Bloomberg would likely be one of the top contenders now, rather than just having dropped out and endorsed Biden. Warren eviscerated his momentum, repeatedly, in a way that none of the others even came close to doing.

Regardless, given her record, I'm fine with letting Warren assess the situation herself and make a decision. Fairly certainly, whichever decision she makes will have good reason.

Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
And a constant barrage from the media that he's electable.

That's what apparently constitutes a worthy POTUS these days. We are so screwed
...He was being propped up by the MSM since before he was even officially in the race. He's as close to an anointed one by the media as you can get here.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"As a plutocrat, I'm going to support the guy who slavishly serves the financial interests of the plutocracy. This surprises all of you. Now you shall applaud."
Brings to mind Biden fighting for the credit card companies against Warren, who was fighting for the people being screwed over by them.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:39 PM   #3462
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree. There is also stern duty, which should take precedence over selfish desires.
Would that it were so.

But I think people with a strong sense of duty simply have integrated it into their happiness subroutines.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:40 PM   #3463
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who said anything about pursuit of happiness? You said earlier today that 'happy' meant 'ok with' in this context.
I said I was using those terms interchangeably in one post you got confused about. Have you not noticed how frequently you get into semantic squabbles with so many different posters? The common factor is you. You keep trying to treat discussions like a legal case where you can suddenly win points by saying "aha! In post #1684 you said X, which I interpreted to mean Y! Inconsistency!"

Just put me on ignore because I find that sort of game exceedingly tiresome. It's not worth posting at all if every post turns into a goddamn Inquisition.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:44 PM   #3464
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I said I was using those terms interchangeably in one post you got confused about.
Ok so not generally in political discussions, then. Sorry, this is difficult to keep track of, especially since I was just making a joke.

Quote:
Have you not noticed how frequently you get into semantic squabbles with so many different posters? The common factor is you. You keep trying to treat discussions like a legal case where you can suddenly win points by saying "aha! In post #1684 you said X, which I interpreted to mean Y! Inconsistency!"
Dude IT WAS A JOKE. I was being playful WITH you. It's not my fault if the thing you said in one thread doesn't apply to this one on the same damned topic and you take it as some sort of personal challenge. It's not my fault if you're not consistent.

Quote:
Just put me on ignore because I find that sort of game exceedingly tiresome.
Shouldn't you put me on ignore, then?
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:48 PM   #3465
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
And I'm still pointing out that McConnell and the GOP have engaged in an unprecedented level of obstructionism. You can't just hand wave that away and pretend it's Sanders fault for overcoming that obstruction; place the blame where it clearly lies.
Nobody's talking about McConnell obstructing Sanders' bills in the Senate. This is about Sanders lifelong lack of success at building a coalition or a voting bloc. Where's Sanders' version of the Blue Dogs? Nowhere. It's just him. Where's Sanders' version of the Squad? Nowhere. It's just him.

That isn't McConnell's fault.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:49 PM   #3466
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That doesn't follow. Distribution among states is an issue as well. It also assumes there isn't another nationwide coalition of voters fighting against him--There can be two or more with competing interests, you know.

McConnell represents just such a competing interest. Bernie hasn’t convinced enough people throughout the nation, in places like Kentucky, that his progressive platform is worth supporting over others like the platform McConnell represents.

Therefore, Bernie has not been successful, in his long career as a politician, in advancing his agenda.

What you call “obstruction,” is simply competing interests, you know . . . competing. If Sanders’ interests were winning, he would be the one “obstructing” McConnell and we’d all have free healthcare, college and ponies by now.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:54 PM   #3467
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is about Sanders lifelong lack of success at building a coalition or a voting bloc. Where's Sanders' version of the Blue Dogs? Nowhere. It's just him. Where's Sanders' version of the Squad? Nowhere. It's just him.
That, while absolutely true, goes down like a cup of cold puke with Bernie Bros.

Lots of Sanders' supporters are every bit as illogical and bigoted as Trump's.

Talk is cheap, and that appears to be the extent of Bernie's abilities. A NZ columnist put it very neatly when he described Sanders as an old man shouting at the wind.

I always thought his chicken was crap, too.
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Old 4th March 2020, 12:59 PM   #3468
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree. There is also stern duty, which should take precedence over selfish desires.
Which brings us around to "is altruism even real"?

I hold that the only people who do their stern duty do so either because doing so gratifies them in some way, or they've been given a value proposition where doing their duty is the most profitable compromise.

Very few people say to themselves, "I hate doing this, and I'd rather have the consequences of not doing it, but I'm going to do it anyway." Even people who engage in self-harm do so because they think or feel that the overall trade-off will be gratifying in some way.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:05 PM   #3469
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
According to early analysis, the youth vote failed to turn out in the numbers Bernie needed / expected. So much for the revolution. Better now than November.
I've been saying this since 2015. It's easy to believe that army is materializing; but how many times do you need to see a no show before you realize the calvary ain't coming?
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:07 PM   #3470
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Sorry, but Bernie has way more charisma than Biden.
Not a flaw in this election when one considers why Biden has a better shot than Sanders.

When Sanders' charisma is getting the Liberals in CA, and TX all happy (without doing a damn thing that will change the outcome of the election WRT those two States) it is also getting the moderates and fence-sitting conservatives in MI, PA, and WI riled up in the opposite direction, possibly costing us those States n the General- and by extension, the General itself.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:07 PM   #3471
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I contend that if there's a baby playing in the street and Ted and Bill stop to have a big showy moral debate about whether they should rescue the baby because it's the right thing to do or whether they should do it to decrease the chances of the baby causing a multi-card pile up instead of one of them just going into street and getting the baby they should both be slapped.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:12 PM   #3472
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's especially striking if you compare video from Biden during Obama's 2008 and 2012 campaigns. There has been a clear drop in lucidity.
There's no doubt Biden has some seriously worrisome flaws.

But no other candidates were rising to the top. So unfortunate. Hopefully Trump's attacks will have lost a lot of effect now that people can see what an incompetent POTUS he's been.

Trump may still have his core, but a whole lot of people he conned in 2016 are not part of that core. And Trump's incompetence is blatantly obvious to a lot of people who didn't see it earlier.

Trump can't attack Biden based on Hunter because Trump's got a whole book of corruption that can be thrown back in his face. And there are dozens of videos of Trump slurring his speech and misspeaking. There's ammo this time around.

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Old 4th March 2020, 01:12 PM   #3473
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Sorry, but Bernie has way more charisma than Biden.
SO Charisma is the only thing that counts in elections?
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:14 PM   #3474
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I've been saying this since 2015. It's easy to believe that army is materializing; but how many times do you need to see a no show before you realize the calvary ain't coming?
Particulary when you live in an echo chamber
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 4th March 2020, 01:16 PM   #3475
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I contend that if there's a baby playing in the street and Ted and Bill stop to have a big showy moral debate about whether they should rescue the baby because it's the right thing to do or whether they should do it to decrease the chances of the baby causing a multi-card pile up instead of one of them just going into street and getting the baby they should both be slapped.
I contend you should just go into the street and pick up the baby rather than stand around with Ted and Bill having a three stooges slap fight!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:17 PM   #3476
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Particulary when you live in an echo chamber
I asked everyone who follows me on Twitter and they said that's not true.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:18 PM   #3477
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I contend you should just go into the street and pick up the baby rather than stand around with Ted and Bill having a three stooges slap fight!
Then the mainstream media can put out an Amber alert.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:19 PM   #3478
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is the Warren path to victory.
There's a video going around of Sanders short of breath standing still. That's Warren's path to victory.

I mean, as long as you are hoping nature intervenes.

I'm not linking to the Sanders video because too much fake stuff is out there and because they made Clinton out to be unhealthy based on a couple instances. She's clearly looking healthy 4 years later.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:20 PM   #3479
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I was surprised to see that too.
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Old 4th March 2020, 01:21 PM   #3480
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I think that Biden probably has a few more delegates then the official Super Tuesday results will show; I think he has most of Mayor Pete and Klobucher's delagates pretty much in his pocket.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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