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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 4th March 2020, 04:02 PM   #3521
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No, it's not the same as just competing.
Of course it is. Sanders has been in the Senate forever and hasn't been able to get any of his ideas through Congress. Why do you think that is? Because voters have put other people in Congress who have competing intrests. Like McConnell. Like all the other congresscritters (notably, his friends in the Democratic Party) who don't support Sanders' ideas. Voters throughout the nation have not put enough other people who agree with Sanders in Congress. He may not be completely alone but he doesn't have anywhere near enough support to get much of anything done.
Quote:
There are instances of Republicans withdrawing support from their own bills they introduced (once Obama supported them). That's not competing, that's just hyperpartisan-I-refuse-to-compromise-with-anyone obstruction.
Which has nothing to do with Bernie and bills he has introduced. He can't even get the Dem establishment to pass them out of comittee.

And I would argue that it is competing. You may not like the tactics, but it's still competing interests vying for dominance.

Quote:
Competing is when both parties engage in good faith efforts to legislate for the betterment of the country. That is not what today's GOP is about, at all.
Ha! Good one!

That's not what USA Politics is about and it hasn't been for a very long time.

Quote:
For your first part, please note your own goal post move: Your original comment was:
Quote:
If Sanders had been successful at builing a nationwide coalition of voters who want the same things he wants, there would be no Mitch McConnell to contend with.
I continue to claim he has.
Yes, you do; but, I think you are wrong. If Sanders had built a coalition of voters throughout the nation who elected like-minded congresscritters, he would have an easier time contending with Mitch McConnell's competing interests.

Quote:
You have now shifted to:
Quote:
Therefore, Bernie has not been successful, in his long career as a politician, in advancing his agenda.
That's not a shift, it's the direct consequence.

Bernie hasn't inspired the country to elect congresspeople like him; therefore, he hasn't been able to get anything done.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:03 PM   #3522
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No, it's a sign that he's been running for Senate for about 40 years and his speech is on autopilot. See - I can mind-read and remote diagnose too!
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:04 PM   #3523
dudalb
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Of course it is. Sanders has been in the Senate forever and hasn't been able to get any of his ideas through Congress. Why do you think that is? Because voters have put other people in Congress who have competing intrests. Like McConnell. Like all the other congresscritters (notably, his friends in the Democratic Party) who don't support Sanders' ideas. Voters throughout the nation have not put enough other people who agree with Sanders in Congress. He may not be completely alone but he doesn't have anywhere near enough support to get much of anything done. Which has nothing to do with Bernie and bills he has introduced. He can't even get the Dem establishment to pass them out of comittee.

And I would argue that it is competing. You may not like the tactics, but it's still competing interests vying for dominance.

Ha! Good one!

That's not what USA Politics is about and it hasn't been for a very long time.

Yes. If Sanders had built a coalition of voters throughout the nation who elected like-minded congresscritters, he would have an easier time contending with Mitch McConnell's competing interests.


That's not a shift, it's the direct consequence.

Bernie hasn't inspired the country to elect congresspeople like him; therefore, he hasn't been able to get anything done.
I think some of the Bernie Bros are having problems dealint with the reality that the progressive/left wing vote was not nearly as big as they though it was.
Surprise. Thw Lost Tribe theory of politics does not work again.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:05 PM   #3524
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just more proof you never really understood American Politics and American voters.
Hint: They were nowhere near as far to the left as you thought.
I don't think your hint is justified based on this. Other factors, such as media bias, absolutely play a role. It's not the simple left/right issue your hint makes it out to be.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:19 PM   #3525
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Of course it is.

Sorry, but nope. It's not. I think it's an abuse of the system. We've got several years of Mitch McConnell refusing to allow things through just to keep Obama from having a legislative victory, at the expense of the country. That's not competition, that's corruption.


Quote:
Sanders has been in the Senate forever and hasn't been able to get any of his ideas through Congress. Why do you think that is? Because voters have put other people in Congress who have competing intrests. Like McConnell....

....and his abuse of the system, yes.


Quote:
Like all the other congresscritters (notably, his friends in the Democratic Party) who don't support Sanders' ideas. Voters throughout the nation have not put enough other people who agree with Sanders in Congress. He may not be completely alone but he doesn't have anywhere near enough support to get much of anything done. Which has nothing to do with Bernie and bills he has introduced. He can't even get the Dem establishment to pass them out of comittee.

And I would argue that it is competing. You may not like the tactics, but it's still competing interests vying for dominance.
And I claim you are wrong.

Quote:
Ha! Good one!

That's not what USA Politics is about and it hasn't been for a very long time.

Not to the extremes of the GOP. Find me a prior example of the leader of the Senate refusing a hearing to a Supreme Court Justice nominee, for example. No, it's not what it's been about for a very long time. This is new, and you're in denial over it.

Quote:
Yes, you do; but, I think you are wrong. If Sanders had built a coalition of voters throughout the nation who elected like-minded congresscritters, he would have an easier time contending with Mitch McConnell's competing interests.
No, you are wrong. You're ignoring the national coalition based on Fox News and right wing propaganda/Lies. In your argument you simply dismiss that as if it is a nonfactor. It quite obviously is not. What you are arguing is analogous to stealing the gasoline from a man's car and then mocking him because he has to walk to work every morning. It's not Sander's fault if he hasn't been able to break through that wall of ignorance; a lot in that coalition simply refuse to listen to anyone other than right wing propaganda approved sources.


Quote:
That's not a shift, it's the direct consequence.

No, it's a shift. You can build a national coalition and still have your agenda blocked by other national coalitions. You're confusing two very different things here.

Quote:
Bernie hasn't inspired the country to elect congresspeople like him; therefore, he hasn't been able to get anything done.

...and that's not Bernie's fault.

QED.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:20 PM   #3526
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think some of the Bernie Bros are having problems dealint with the reality that the progressive/left wing vote was not nearly as big as they though it was.
Surprise. Thw Lost Tribe theory of politics does not work again.



That has nothing to do with the argument. I think you're having problems with your own hyperbias.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:20 PM   #3527
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Let's blame everybody but Bernie for what happened last night.
That Bernie flubbed it when it came to appealing to people outside his progressive base is simply unthinkable..
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:31 PM   #3528
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just more proof you never really understood American Politics and American voters.
Hint: They were nowhere near as far to the left as you thought.
As stupid and selfish among the boomers as I thought though. Will laugh mercilessly if you re-elect Trump.

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Old 4th March 2020, 04:46 PM   #3529
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sorry, but nope. It's not. I think it's an abuse of the system. We've got several years of Mitch McConnell refusing to allow things through just to keep Obama from having a legislative victory, at the expense of the country. That's not competition, that's corruption.
Did Mitch do anything illegal? No? You mean he used the rules of institution to block legislation? Oh, so it was competition after all.

Oh well, you see your way and I see it mine. And we both see it slipping away . . .

Quote:
...and his abuse of the system, yes.
That implies he cheated or something. Did he? No? Your hyperbole is easily dismissed. Do we really need to rehash American political history to show all the instances of various politicians blocking legislation?

What about all that legislation Bernie couldn't even get his friends in the Democratic Party to seriously consider? Is that Mitch's fault too? Oh no . . . that's Fox News' and ignorant voters' fault somehow . . .

Quote:
And I claim you are wrong.
And that's ok. We aren't likely to agree on this.
Quote:
Not to the extremes of the GOP. Find me a prior example of the leader of the Senate refusing a hearing to a Supreme Court Justice nominee, for example. No, it's not what it's been about for a very long time. This is new, and you're in denial over it.
Oh sure, nominations have never ever been blocked before in history. So new.

Quote:
No, you are wrong. You're ignoring the national coalition based on Fox News and right wing propaganda/Lies.
And that's different from the "competing interests" idea . . . how, exactly?
Quote:
In your argument you simply dismiss that as if it is a nonfactor. It quite obviously is not. What you are arguing is analogous to stealing the gasoline from a man's car and then mocking him because he has to walk to work every morning.
Bad analogy.
Quote:
It's not Sander's fault if he hasn't been able to break through that wall of ignorance; a lot in that coalition simply refuse to listen to anyone other than right wing propaganda approved sources.
Of course, it's never Sanders' fault! It's all the stupid people who won't listen to him! We would all have free healthcare, college, ponies and 3 chickens in our pots if only everyone else wasn't so damned ignorant.

Quote:
No, it's a shift. You can build a national coalition and still have your agenda blocked by other national coalitions. You're confusing two very different things here.


I don't think I'm the one confusing anything. You are saying exactly what I'm saying: Bernie has not been able to build a national coalition representing progressive interests that is strong enough to outcompete other interests. Agreed?

Quote:
...and that's not Bernie's fault.

QED.
It's not Bernie's fault that other people don't agree with him. This is true. But it's also not other people's fault that they don't agree with him. They simply have different interests.
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Old 4th March 2020, 04:52 PM   #3530
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Originally Posted by @realdonaldtrump
Wow! If Elizabeth Warren wasn’t in the race, Bernie Sanders would have EASILY won Massachusetts, Minnesota and Texas, not to mention various other states. Our modern day Pocahontas won’t go down in history as a winner, but she may very well go down as the all time great SPOILER!

He's of course exactly right, and I have been baffled for quite some time that "progressives" bought her shtick, with her complete fake history. I called it a long time ago that the "Pocahontas" nickname actually finished her.

Each day she will refuse to step aside will be testimony to how fake she is.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:03 PM   #3531
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OK, so he said "“My name is Joe Biden, I'm a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate”.

That is the kind of verbal slip up I have been making all my life, even at a time that I was getting distinctions and high distinctions in a university maths course.

So what?
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:06 PM   #3532
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Just a bit earlier:

Originally Posted by @realdonaldtrump
So selfish for Elizabeth Warren to stay in the race. She has Zero chance of even coming close to winning, but hurts Bernie badly. So much for their wonderful liberal friendship. Will he ever speak to her again? She cost him Massachusetts (and came in third), he shouldn’t!
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:08 PM   #3533
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
OK, so he said "“My name is Joe Biden, I'm a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate”.

That is the kind of verbal slip up I have been making all my life, even at a time that I was getting distinctions and high distinctions in a university maths course.

So what?
Well, yeah. But in some politicians, this is a sign of dangerous mental illness. In others it's nothing to worry about.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:08 PM   #3534
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's blame everybody but Bernie for what happened last night.
That Bernie flubbed it when it came to appealing to people outside his progressive base is simply unthinkable..
I think you are making a similar mistake to that which you are accusing others.

A good deal of Sanders' loss Yesterday was because he is seen as having less of a chance of defeating Trump than Biden has. It was not entirely because his overall politics don't enjoy broad popular support.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:11 PM   #3535
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's blame everybody but Bernie for what happened last night.
That Bernie flubbed it when it came to appealing to people outside his progressive base is simply unthinkable..
You make it sound like it was a resounding defeat for Bernie.

This is very much a close, contested race.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:12 PM   #3536
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Damn it. My state's primary is next Tuesday. I wanted to get a chance to vote for a candidate I actually like at least once!
Oof, same. Except my state's is in April I think.

I've never had a candidate I actually agreed with both policy and temperament wise as her. It was great to be able to actually see not only what policies she supported, but why, and what it would take for her to change. On top of that, she was willing to be pragmatic. Her answer on if she would have signed the ACA if it were her choice at the time seriously impressed me.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:13 PM   #3537
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think you are making a similar mistake to that which you are accusing others.

A good deal of Sanders' loss Yesterday was because he is seen as having less of a chance of defeating Trump than Biden has not because his overall politics don't enjoy broad popular support.
I guess it would depend on how you define "broad popular support." It's obviously not been broad and popular enough to get people all over the country to elect congressmembers who agree with his politics. There aren't even viable candidates in most parts of the country who run on a platflorm similar to his.

And why exactly is he viewed as having less of a chance of defeating Trump? Probably because of his politics.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:13 PM   #3538
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
He's of course exactly right, and I have been baffled for quite some time that "progressives" bought her shtick, with her complete fake history. I called it a long time ago that the "Pocahontas" nickname actually finished her.
Sure.

If you are a guy you can sleep with a prostitute while your wife is heavily pregnant with your child, try to buy the prostitute off, get into live televised arguments with people about the size of your penis, make remarks about how being powerful allows you to commit sexual abuse and you are super-duper Presidential material.

If you are a woman and you remark that you have some native American blood - you are finished.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:14 PM   #3539
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No, it's a sign that he's been running for Senate for about 40 years and his speech is on autopilot. See - I can mind-read and remote diagnose too!
He just needs to remember to take his covfefe on time to keep his windmill cancer from acting up, keeping him a very stable genius like the totally sane precedent.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:19 PM   #3540
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You make it sound like it was a resounding defeat for Bernie.

This is very much a close, contested race.

It isn't anymore, and it should be obvious. Labeled by the most clownish of the shills, the fringe of the fringe predicted it before "Super Tuesday" and now we are there, in "Super Fake" territory.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:20 PM   #3541
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So the smear campaign begins. Dear Leader is proud of you.
So you think Joe seems perfectly coherent? Look back over this thread and you will see lots of the liberal posters expressing concern for his mental health.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:21 PM   #3542
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BTW, Bloomberg ads are still running in heavy rotation here in AZ.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:30 PM   #3543
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's blame everybody but Bernie for what happened last night.
That Bernie flubbed it when it came to appealing to people outside his progressive base is simply unthinkable..

You seem to be composed of nothing more than straw men and misrepresentations these days.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:40 PM   #3544
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
I'm sure he thinks as I do that the Democrats have stumbled upon a winning strategy for November; just don't run anyone who is bat **** crazy.

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Old 4th March 2020, 05:41 PM   #3545
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Did Mitch do anything illegal? No? You mean he used the rules of institution to block legislation? Oh, so it was competition after all.

Oh well, you see your way and I see it mine. And we both see it slipping away . . .

Yeah, what do you need me for if you are going to answer your questions for me? You are as naive in this thread as your were in the Trump mental health thread:

Ethics =/= Legal

Compete =/= Legal

Quote:
That implies he cheated or something. Did he? No? Your hyperbole is easily dismissed. Do we really need to rehash American political history to show all the instances of various politicians blocking legislation?
It sure is easily dismissed when you answer for me. Yeah, he cheated, and I think the stealing of a Supreme Court Justice should qualify as illegal. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I've never really been concerned with what you think.

Quote:
What about all that legislation Bernie couldn't even get his friends in the Democratic Party to seriously consider? Is that Mitch's fault too? Oh no . . . that's Fox News' and ignorant voters' fault somehow . . .

And that's ok. We aren't likely to agree on this.
Oh sure, nominations have never ever been blocked before in history. So new.
Give me an example. You haven't. You can't. And not of your goal post shift, either. I didn't say blocked, I'm saying he didn't even allow a hearing for Merrick Garland. Unprecedented.

Quote:
And that's different from the "competing interests" idea . . . how, exactly?
You're confusing two different things. I never said that wasn't competing interests--That referred to McConnell. As usual, you're not even paying attention. You are a waste of my time.

Quote:
Bad analogy.
Perfectly appropriate analogy, in fact.

Quote:
Of course, it's never Sanders' fault!
Oh dear, yet another straw man from you. I'm not surprised. That's all you've ever had.

Quote:
It's all the stupid people who won't listen to him! We would all have free healthcare, college, ponies and 3 chickens in our pots if only everyone else wasn't so damned ignorant.



I don't think I'm the one confusing anything. You are saying exactly what I'm saying: Bernie has not been able to build a national coalition representing progressive interests that is strong enough to outcompete other interests. Agreed?
Sure, I'll agree with that. I would have agreed with that had it been what you said in the first place, but that wasn't what you said earlier. Yet another way you waste my time.

Quote:
It's not Bernie's fault that other people don't agree with him. This is true. But it's also not other people's fault that they don't agree with him. They simply have different interests.

Nope. I can and do still blame the unethical, possibly illegal, obstruction within the GOP for many years now.

Goodbye. I'm tired of your straw men and misrepresentations. That is all you've ever brought to the table with me and I have better things to do.
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Old 4th March 2020, 05:43 PM   #3546
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, yeah. But in some politicians, this is a sign of dangerous mental illness. In others it's nothing to worry about.

I will pop in to offer you one more compliment: Nice Straw Man!

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Old 4th March 2020, 06:09 PM   #3547
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Re Biden versus Trump in the gaffe department:
Biden puts his foot in his mouth on occasion. Trump keeps it there 24/7.
Trump’s gaffes aren’t gaffes though. They are giving his supporters what they want.

“Ha ha! He made fun of the handicap man! Ha ha! He’s so trolling the libs!”
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Old 4th March 2020, 06:12 PM   #3548
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Here's an article that talks a bit about the youth vote failing to show up:

Quote:
In Alabama, only 10% of the voters were in the 17-29 range compared to 14% in 2016. Sanders won 46% of those voters Tuesday compared to 40% in 2016.
In North Carolina, 14% of Tuesday’s electorate were young voters, compared to 16% four years ago. Of those, 57% went for Sanders in 2020 compared to 69% in 2016.
In South Carolina which held its primary Saturday, young voters made up 11% of the electorate compared to 15% in 2016. Sanders won 43% of those voters compared to 54% four years ago.
In Tennessee, 11% of those voters showed up Tuesday versus 15% in 2016. Sanders did better among that group Tuesday winning 63% compared to 61% four years ago.
In Virginia, young voters comprised 13% of Tuesday’s vote compared to 16% in 2016. Sanders won 55% of those voters Tuesday compared with 69% four years ago.
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Old 4th March 2020, 06:17 PM   #3549
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Here's an article that talks a bit about the youth vote failing to show up:
You have a link to that?
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Old 4th March 2020, 06:50 PM   #3550
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
What if the baby's wearing a MAGA hat?
“Kill it.” - M. Boomblurg
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Old 4th March 2020, 06:53 PM   #3551
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Here's an article that talks a bit about the youth vote failing to show up:
Yeah, the whole 'Bernie will energize the young voters in a way we have not seen before and that will give him victory" is about as classic a version of the 'Lost Political Tribe" fallacy as we are likely to see.
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Old 4th March 2020, 06:57 PM   #3552
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm sure he thinks as I do that the Democrats have stumbled upon a winning strategy for November; just don't run anyone who is bat **** crazy.
And they seem to be settling for either Ramblin' Joe or Fist-Shaking Bernie as their "not crazy" options? Oh, dear. This is going to be a very tight race no matter which horse is running.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:02 PM   #3553
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Let's make a distinction between screwed and really screwed. We're really screwed if Trump names RBG's replacement. And maybe Breyer's.
I don't see how she can hang on for another 5 years, and it's almost certain that Trump will be reelected. No way can Biden beat him.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:02 PM   #3554
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
He's of course exactly right, and I have been baffled for quite some time that "progressives" bought her shtick, with her complete fake history. I called it a long time ago that the "Pocahontas" nickname actually finished her.

Each day she will refuse to step aside will be testimony to how fake she is.
Shtick? Elizabeth Warren is a smart and hard working woman. She did more for the middle class and the poor than POS Trump has done in his entire life. The nickname didn't finish her. It was that she's a wonk. Always getting down to the details when the public doesn't have an attention span for them.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 4th March 2020 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:20 PM   #3555
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well it was quite unlikely that someone like Bloomberg would ever support someone like Sanders.

Therefore, for Bloomberg, the obvious choice for his support would be for Biden.

By the way, with all of this sudden Biden support, then I sure do hope that this becomes known as the moment where Trump actually does lose the presidential race.
Are you joking? You really think that Biden would be Trump? That seems like incredibly unwarranted optimism.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:21 PM   #3556
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And they seem to be settling for either Ramblin' Joe or Fist-Shaking Bernie as their "not crazy" options? Oh, dear. This is going to be a very tight race no matter which horse is running.
This. Anyone who thinks Biden can win must not have been watching him very carefully. The guy is very weird in an uncomfortable way. Trump gets away with being crazy because that's his thing. It won't work for Biden.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:22 PM   #3557
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I haven't been paying attention but maybe somebody here knows. Which of these candidates is planning to add more national parks and wildlife refuges? Do any of them have a platform for endangered species?
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:23 PM   #3558
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Shtick? Elizabeth Warren is a smart and hard working woman. She did more for the middle class and the poor than POS Trump has done in his entire life. The nickname didn't finish her. It was that she's a wonk. Always getting down to the details when the public doesn't have an attention span for them.
Nah, people liked that. I think she just wasn't polarizing enough. The Biden and Bernie people screaming at each other sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't been paying attention but maybe somebody here knows. Which of these candidates is planning to add more national parks and wildlife refuges? Do any of them have a platform for endangered species?
Warren does.

Bernie wants to tell you about the health care, and Biden wants to remind you he knows Obama.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 4th March 2020 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:48 PM   #3559
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
And I'm still pointing out that McConnell and the GOP have engaged in an unprecedented level of obstructionism. You can't just hand wave that away and pretend it's Sanders fault for overcoming that obstruction; place the blame where it clearly lies.
If Bernie had been effective at building a national following, McConnell's obstructionism would have been an asset he could have used as a selling point. Bernie has his niche voters but he has not been effective at broadening it. He's a good, small state pol but ineffective on the national level.
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Old 4th March 2020, 07:52 PM   #3560
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'll abstain, then?

(also, in the other thread you mentioned 'happy', which is what this was supposed to be a joke about, but now I'm confused.)
When you have to explain a joke it is no longer a joke.
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