IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

Closed Thread
Old 4th March 2020, 11:38 PM   #3601
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 87,763
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
While Elizabeth Warren just gets smarter and prettier with each passing day!

Maybe its Maybelline or a painting in the attic.
Haven't seen any evidence of brain deterioration. Have you?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th March 2020, 11:55 PM   #3602
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Haven't seen any evidence of brain deterioration. Have you?
None at all. Was a reaction to your smear on Sanders. Will you be getting behind the progressive front runner or the establishment choice?
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 12:14 AM   #3603
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,358
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You have a link to that?
My bad, here's the link.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 12:37 AM   #3604
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,568
Mmm. This ended up longer than I like, but... I also don't feel like responding to all these individually.


Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Looks to me like he's trying to build a coalition of voters.
While generally ignoring those that they've chosen to represent them.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
And I'm still pointing out that McConnell and the GOP have engaged in an unprecedented level of obstructionism. You can't just hand wave that away and pretend it's Sanders fault for overcoming that obstruction; place the blame where it clearly lies.
Sure. McConnell's to blame for a lot. With that said, though, going by his record, Sanders frequently doesn't even really try to make things happen in the first place. Rather, it seems more like he frequently gives up preemptively, without even seriously trying to actually make things happen. Compare this to Warren, who has apparently got about a dozen bills passed recently, despite McConnell and the general obstructionism of the Republicans.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I continue to claim he has.
Personally, I agree with you that Sanders has created a nationwide coalition of voters. With that said, there's not much evidence that it's strong enough to win many legislature spots to directly help him enact his agenda or usable enough to pressure current lawmakers into supporting his agenda... and that somewhat gets to one of the hearts of how unrealistic it is when he claims that his approach to getting things done will be to get the constituents of legislators to effectively force the legislators to give in.

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
...and that's not Bernie's fault.
It... sorta is, pretty much by definition? He's chosen a particular tactic to accomplish things and he's failed to reach success with it over and over. That IS his responsibility, for better or worse.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That implies he cheated or something.
Not necessarily. In games, for example, there are frequently bugs or exploits that can be abused to effectively break the system/designed gameplay. Is that cheating? Yes and no, depending on what considerations you're taking into account. Devs frequently act to fix those bugs/exploits, either way. With that said, I'm very much in agreement with Cabbage that McConnell's abusing the system in much the same sense as that.

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've got to step in at this point. The constitution says that the President shall have Power, .... and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint ... Judges of the Supreme Court, McConnell's Senate did not do this. Thus, I would argue what he did was unconstitutional. If not, then it was at the very least cheating. That is not simply competing.
It was certainly a destructive abuse of the rules, at very least, rather, and is not even remotely a good faith move.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which brings us around to "is altruism even real"?

I hold that the only people who do their stern duty do so either because doing so gratifies them in some way, or they've been given a value proposition where doing their duty is the most profitable compromise.

Very few people say to themselves, "I hate doing this, and I'd rather have the consequences of not doing it, but I'm going to do it anyway." Even people who engage in self-harm do so because they think or feel that the overall trade-off will be gratifying in some way.
There's two things here to note. First, stern duty =/= altruism. You're wrong to conflate them.

Second, rather than starting with the question of whether altruism even real, it's likely better to first specifically define what is supposed to constitute altruism and compare that to the actual usage of such. I'm fairly sure that you can easily define it out of existence by requiring a philosophical stance that it can't benefit the giver in any way, shape, or form - while completely ignoring that, in practice, that's pretty much empty semantics, because it's almost never actually used that way in the first place.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not a flaw in this election when one considers why Biden has a better shot than Sanders.

When Sanders' charisma is getting the Liberals in CA, and TX all happy (without doing a damn thing that will change the outcome of the election WRT those two States) it is also getting the moderates and fence-sitting conservatives in MI, PA, and WI riled up in the opposite direction, possibly costing us those States n the General- and by extension, the General itself.
Biden camp - For all his many flaws, he can get moderates to vote for liberal policies.
Sanders camp - Revolution! Let's take down the Democratic party and make it do what we want it to!

At a very fundamental level, Biden's campaign is more uniting than Sanders. Worse than Warren, certainly, but more than Sanders. Biden's wins on Super Tuesday are very likely largely because of backlash to how Sander is handling things. Sanders is running a great campaign, but not necessarily so great for what he's actually running for, in other words.


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO Charisma is the only thing that counts in elections?
It does count for a lot, to be fair.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think that Biden probably has a few more delegates then the official Super Tuesday results will show; I think he has most of Mayor Pete and Klobucher's delagates pretty much in his pocket.
I've read that as part of their endorsement of Biden, they functionally ceded their delegates to him? I think that there's probably still the chance to change that, but...

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The thing about Joe's recent "gaffes" is that they're different than they used to be. Earlier in his career he'd just lie or say something stupid or offensive. But now he's regularly losing his train of thought and getting confused. These are signs of a serious cognitive decline. And no other candidate in the race, including Trump and Sanders, is showing anything like this sort of decline. It's sad, really.
Which would mean that we have to choose between two people who are suffering from significant cognitive decline if Biden wins. Of course, that may be giving too much credit to how great Trump's cognitive state ever was.

Still, that it looks like they're declining is just one of the numerous reasons that I don't really want either Biden or Trump.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes. Trump is much the same as he always was. Biden isn't what he used to be. You don't have to like Trump or hate Biden to be able to see that.
I disagree. It is again true that Trump was never not an idiot in the first place, so it doesn't show quite as blatantly, though.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Trump is a classic case study for the phenomenon of psychological projection. He certainly can and does attack people for things that he himself is weak on. There was ammo last time too; it just didn't affect enough voters in a couple of swing states.
Yeah... there's also the open question of how much of it's actually projection versus a case of a thief loudly yelling that the thief's victim is actually the thief. Either way, Trump being weak on something frequently wouldn't even come into the equation when what the listener craves is validation and is plenty happy to accept it when it comes from putting others down (even falsely).

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Surely you are kidding me with this. Now that Biden is back in the limelight, the political prosecution of Hunter Biden will resume without a lost step.
Has. Within hours of Biden's win, again leaving no doubt at all that it's politically motivated and nothing else.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Re Biden versus Trump in the gaffe department:
Biden puts his foot in his mouth on occasion. Trump keeps it there 24/7.
Mmm. Here's a video for you from the Lincoln Project.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
yeah, replacing the Market with a Command economy worked so damn well in the Soviet Union.
I think if Bernie had been elected President you would have been bitterly disspaointed because he seems to be nowhere as far to the left as you are.
Mmm. You're skipping all the way to a Command economy, despite that having nearly no relation to what even Democratic Socialism actually is pushing for and the comment you quoted not even remotely supporting a Command Economy?

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I note a couple of Bernie's overseas Bros here seem never to have really grasped some facts about American voters and the American Political system.
That's true across the spectrum, honestly. I've had a couple Brit conservatives, for example, trying to tell me that the Trump shutdown because he was having a temper tantrum over not getting his wall would easily be solvable if Democrats would say that they're willing to give Trump his wall in return for M4A. Therefore, the Democrats were at fault at least as much as Trump. It was genuinely shocking to them, for example, when I pointed out that Democrats are a big tent party and a lot of Democrats likely wouldn't support M4A in the first place for a few reasons.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You make it sound like it was a resounding defeat for Bernie.

This is very much a close, contested race.
Sure. The bang for the buck should probably be taken into account, too, though. Biden won states that he didn't campaign in or barely campaigned in.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oof, same. Except my state's is in April I think.

I've never had a candidate I actually agreed with both policy and temperament wise as her. It was great to be able to actually see not only what policies she supported, but why, and what it would take for her to change. On top of that, she was willing to be pragmatic. Her answer on if she would have signed the ACA if it were her choice at the time seriously impressed me.
As is mine. If Warren drops out, there's honestly a decent chance I just won't vote for a Democratic Presidential candidate at all in the primary and just vote blue in the general, either way. Neither Biden nor Bernie is particularly appealing to me, albeit for very different reasons, and there isn't a strong candidate to vote against.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The voters too. That's been her running tragedy this election: Warren was everyone's first pick, but everyone felt they needed to support someone else to make sure some third group voted against Trump.
A strong plurality, at least. Either way, IIRC Warren's "surge" pretty much was ended when CNN pulled that "Warren says Bernie said" crap that was exploded sooooo far out of proportion to the actual content, accompanied with all that #Warrenisasnake BS.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 5th March 2020 at 12:44 AM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 02:47 AM   #3605
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Elizabeth Warren will be VP to Biden. Staying in the race to continue to shaft Sandersí chances against the sundowning Biden.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 02:55 AM   #3606
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,853
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Elizabeth Warren will be VP to Biden. Staying in the race to continue to shaft Sandersí chances against the sundowning Biden.
That might be ideal, but I wonder if the chemistry can work.
__________________
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 02:57 AM   #3607
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Elizabeth Warren will be VP to Biden. Staying in the race to continue to shaft Sandersí chances against the sundowning Biden.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 03:21 AM   #3608
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,601
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Elizabeth Warren will be VP to Biden. Staying in the race to continue to shaft Sandersí chances against the sundowning Biden.
That might have been the idea. But I think Warren staying in the race is demonstrating her limited appeal.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 03:54 AM   #3609
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
I can't see how Warren is taking votes from Sanders.

I would have thought she was closer to Biden, so would take votes from him.

Also, would Biden really want a VP who is much smarter than him?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 04:15 AM   #3610
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I can't see how Warren is taking votes from Sanders.

I would have thought she was closer to Biden, so would take votes from him.

Also, would Biden really want a VP who is much smarter than him?
Is that a guess or are you going by polls on this question?

Again and again Sanders supporters have been told that Warren is just a younger and brighter progressive choice. Some feminists were adding that the only reason for choosing Sanders is sexism.

On the having a smarter VP is Biden a narcissist/sexist who couldnít handle having a smarter woman in that position?
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 04:17 AM   #3611
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That might have been the idea. But I think Warren staying in the race is demonstrating her limited appeal.
The demonstrated limited appeal plus staying in the race might be well explained by being happy to take away from Sandersí count.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 04:48 AM   #3612
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,862
Personally I think she's about to drop out. Before the weekend probably. She's just coming to terms with it.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 04:51 AM   #3613
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Personally I think she's about to drop out. Before the weekend probably. She's just coming to terms with it.
I hope you are right and she endorses Sanders.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:01 AM   #3614
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,862
There's really no reason for her to stay in other than pride or stubbornness at this point. All the other also-rans have seen the writing on the wall and dropped out. Unless you count fringe candidates. There's nothing more to be gained by staying in. Unless to spite Bernie.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:11 AM   #3615
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,450
Deleted, Double post
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 5th March 2020 at 05:14 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:14 AM   #3616
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,450
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
There's really no reason for her to stay in other than pride or stubbornness at this point. All the other also-rans have seen the writing on the wall and dropped out. Unless you count fringe candidates. There's nothing more to be gained by staying in. Unless to spite Bernie.
Her staying in the race only damages the party and makes the prospects of beating Trump worse.

A brokered convention is the scenario that maximizes inter-party enmity. Warren dropping out increases the likelihood that either Biden or Bernie reaches the majority threshold and avoids the brokered nightmare.

I don't say this as a Bernie partisan. It's not clear where her supporters would go, and she could probably sway some of her supporters by endorsing. The way she has run her campaign, I wouldn't be surprised if she endorsed Biden.

A Biden majority win is a much, much better outcome than a Biden plurality and brokered convention win.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 5th March 2020 at 05:19 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:31 AM   #3617
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,980
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
As stupid and selfish among the boomers as I thought though. Will laugh mercilessly if you re-elect Trump.
What do you even mean by "boomer"? Someone who doesn't agree with you?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:36 AM   #3618
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,980
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Some people think Trump is declining. I can only say he appears worse than he was several years ago.
It might also be a feedback loop. He gets adulation by saying nonsense and being a dick, and he's internalised that by becoming more nonsensical and more offensive. It doesn't help.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:48 AM   #3619
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 24,443
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What do you even mean by "boomer"? Someone who doesn't agree with you?
Yes, thatís right.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 05:50 AM   #3620
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,980
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yes, thatís right.
I would've prefered a serious answer to sarcasm, but I shouldn't expect more, I guess.

Surely you don't mean "baby boomer", as the label doesn't match your use of it. So what is it?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:00 AM   #3621
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,659
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Will you be getting behind the progressive front runner or the establishment choice popular vote leader?
FTFY
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:05 AM   #3622
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,450
I really don't understand the tone shift that has happened here. Biden has a tiny lead over Bernie. It's still very much a contested election.

Biden has 28% of the delegates needed for a majority win

Bernie has 25%.

Biden is the frontrunner of a very close race in which lots of states are still left.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:06 AM   #3623
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That might have been the idea. But I think Warren staying in the race is demonstrating her limited appeal.
There is a debate on the 15th. in AZ.
You see her appeal falling after sharing the debate stage with the two guys from the balcony on the muppets?

I hope she stays in at least till after that debate. And preferably all the way to the end.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:08 AM   #3624
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
There's really no reason for her to stay in other than pride or stubbornness at this point. All the other also-rans have seen the writing on the wall and dropped out. Unless you count fringe candidates. There's nothing more to be gained by staying in. Unless to spite Bernie.
There are still two months and more than half the delegates to go.

If her financing does not dry up, she is going to start looking better and better by comparison to the frontrunners.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:12 AM   #3625
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,450
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
There is a debate on the 15th. in AZ.
You see her appeal falling after sharing the debate stage with the two guys from the balcony on the muppets?

I hope she stays in at least till after that debate. And preferably all the way to the end.
What does the path to victory look like for her? Winning a majority is out unless you honestly expect Warren to win states at like 60% or more.

Edit: Quick calculation comes up with Warren needing to win 70% of all remaining pledged delegates to get a majority. Nobody thinks this is going to happen, right?

Do you think that Warren can win a majority?

The only reasonable path to victory for her is a contested convention. Given the coalescing of the rest of the party around Biden, I find it very hard to imagine that they would turn it over to Warren who would probably be coming in a distant third.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 5th March 2020 at 06:28 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:14 AM   #3626
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 59,718
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
There are still two months and more than half the delegates to go.

If her financing does not dry up, she is going to start looking better and better by comparison to the frontrunners.
Those who don't like Sanders and those who don't like Biden can compromise by supporting Warren instead. Aren't both groups constantly yammering on about the greatness and necessity of compromise? Here's their opportunity to actually do it. Unless they are simply dirty hypocrites and only value compromise when they're trying to persuade others to give in. Surely not.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:16 AM   #3627
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,980
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Those who don't like Sanders and those who don't like Biden can compromise by supporting Warren instead. Aren't both groups constantly yammering on about the greatness and necessity of compromise?
Hey, that's me!!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:23 AM   #3628
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,659
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I really don't understand the tone shift that has happened here. Biden has a tiny lead over Bernie. It's still very much a contested election.
Very much so. We'll have a better idea what the new two-man race dynamic looks like next Wednesday.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do you think that Warren can win a majority?
She may win enough to be the key powerbroker going in to Milwaukee, assuming no one makes it to 1,991.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 5th March 2020 at 06:25 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:33 AM   #3629
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Those who don't like Sanders and those who don't like Biden can compromise by supporting Warren instead. Aren't both groups constantly yammering on about the greatness and necessity of compromise? Here's their opportunity to actually do it. Unless they are simply dirty hypocrites and only value compromise when they're trying to persuade others to give in. Surely not.
I think she mitigates a good deal of the Sanders' supporters bitterness. And provides all the "anyone but Sanders" with a better choice than the walking corpse that Biden seems to be.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:49 AM   #3630
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What does the path to victory look like for her? Winning a majority is out unless you honestly expect Warren to win states at like 60% or more.

Edit: Quick calculation comes up with Warren needing to win 70% of all remaining pledged delegates to get a majority. Nobody thinks this is going to happen, right?

Do you think that Warren can win a majority?

The only reasonable path to victory for her is a contested convention. Given the coalescing of the rest of the party around Biden, I find it very hard to imagine that they would turn it over to Warren who would probably be coming in a distant third.
Brokered convention.
What the Convention is supposed to be in the first place.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 06:57 AM   #3631
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,450
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Brokered convention.
What the Convention is supposed to be in the first place.
What exactly does that look like, in your mind? Warren comes in with enough delegates to deny both Bernie and Biden a majority win, then somehow she emerges as the candidate?

The entire party apparatus is unified in supporting Biden. In what world are the superdelegates going to prefer Warren with like 10-15% of pledged delegates over Biden with like 35-45%?

Best case scenario for Warren is she extracts a VP or cabinet position in exchange for her delegates. Doesn't seem like a good deal as it necessitates sending the party into chaotic infighting for a brokered convention.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:06 AM   #3632
Cabbage
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Mmm. This ended up longer than I like, but... I also don't feel like responding to all these individually.




While generally ignoring those that they've chosen to represent them.



Sure. McConnell's to blame for a lot. With that said, though, going by his record, Sanders frequently doesn't even really try to make things happen in the first place. Rather, it seems more like he frequently gives up preemptively, without even seriously trying to actually make things happen. Compare this to Warren, who has apparently got about a dozen bills passed recently, despite McConnell and the general obstructionism of the Republicans.



Personally, I agree with you that Sanders has created a nationwide coalition of voters. With that said, there's not much evidence that it's strong enough to win many legislature spots to directly help him enact his agenda or usable enough to pressure current lawmakers into supporting his agenda... and that somewhat gets to one of the hearts of how unrealistic it is when he claims that his approach to getting things done will be to get the constituents of legislators to effectively force the legislators to give in.



It... sorta is, pretty much by definition? He's chosen a particular tactic to accomplish things and he's failed to reach success with it over and over. That IS his responsibility, for better or worse.



Regarding Bernie not getting anything done: I've seen others on this board complain about Bernie's supporters not realizing that Bernie as president would not be able to accomplish his agenda. What makes them think we are so naive? Every Bernie supporter I have spoken with is well aware he won't be able to push his agenda through as president. And I wouldn't fault him for that, in the face of GOP obstructionism.

No, we are supporting him for the purpose of pushing the federal govt, however so slightly or not, to the left, after such dramatic swings to the right over the past few decades. And let me preemptively point out to anyone deciding to ask me: Wouldn't it be better to support a progressive left candidate who can get things done?

1. I'm not sure that's possible in the current political climate.

2. You vote for the progressive left candidate you have, not the progressive left candidate you want.

Finally, for anyone who claims Warren is similar but she's accomplished more in the Senate: I'm on the record on this board stating on several occasions that I consider my support between Warren and Sanders a coin flip. I decided several months ago to vote for which ever had the momentum at the time of my state's primary. And that's exactly what I did.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:15 AM   #3633
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 59,718
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What exactly does that look like, in your mind? Warren comes in with enough delegates to deny both Bernie and Biden a majority win, then somehow she emerges as the candidate?

The entire party apparatus is unified in supporting Biden. In what world are the superdelegates going to prefer Warren with like 10-15% of pledged delegates over Biden with like 35-45%?

Best case scenario for Warren is she extracts a VP or cabinet position in exchange for her delegates. Doesn't seem like a good deal as it necessitates sending the party into chaotic infighting for a brokered convention.
Perhaps she's hoping that either Sanders or Biden will drop dead in the next five days. The odds of that aren't very bad!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:23 AM   #3634
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,394
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps she's hoping that either Sanders or Biden will drop dead in the next five days. The odds of that aren't very bad!
There's a joke that the only job the VP has is to wake up every morning and ask if the President is still alive or not, then go back to bed.

That might have to be updated to hourly check-ins.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:23 AM   #3635
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 40,586
E-freaking-gads. It's clear the Missouri primaries are coming up quick, the political ads have all been turned up to eleven. And everyone is evoking Obama like there's no tomorrow. Despite him not endorsing anyone, it seems like he's the star of every ad. I guess it's a good thing at one point or another, Obama had to introduce Warren, Sanders, and Biden to a crowd so they can all now use his introductory remarks as if it's an individual endorsement.
__________________
"Never judge a man until youíve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, youíll be a mile away and have his shoes."

Last edited by Mike!; 5th March 2020 at 07:27 AM.
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:26 AM   #3636
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,095
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What exactly does that look like, in your mind? Warren comes in with enough delegates to deny both Bernie and Biden a majority win, then somehow she emerges as the candidate?
I think she can use that to shift Biden's policies significantly to the left. Aside from "I have Obama's cell number," Biden doesn't really stand for much. Warren can walk in with a stack of her policy treatises and offer to avoid a brokered convention if he makes them his policy too.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:28 AM   #3637
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 59,718
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
E-freaking-gads. It's clear the Missouri primaries are coming up quick, the political ads have all been turned up to eleven. And everyone is evoking Obama like there's no tomorrow. Despite him not endorsing anyone, it seems like he's the star of every ad. I guess it's a good thing at one point or another, Obama had to introduce Warren, Sanders, and Biden to a crowd so they can all now use his introductory remarks as if it's an individual endorsement.
The Bloomberg flyers are still trickling through the mail. Dumpster in my alley was full of them last week.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:29 AM   #3638
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,394
I still had Bloomberg ads running last night in FL. Guess he had already paid for them or there was no time to redue to advertising schedule or something.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:29 AM   #3639
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,659
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's a joke that the only job the VP has is to wake up every morning and ask if the President is still alive or not, then go back to bed.
Mike Pence would likely disagree, having been saddled with the heavy burden of taking the blame for mismanaging the largest public health crisis in my lifetime.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 5th March 2020, 07:30 AM   #3640
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 5,611
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps she's hoping that either Sanders or Biden will drop dead in the next five days. The odds of that aren't very bad!
I give that only an %18 probability of being a joke.

Perhaps we could convince Trump to participate in a wrestling match with our guy, and whomever survives the ordeal is the president for the next week or so until his own heart gives out.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:18 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.