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Old 16th April 2018, 12:20 PM   #281
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
It's definitely a real thing. While no one can know exactly what goes in their minds, if it were not a real thing they would not allow themselves to be challenged and we see several examples of genuine challenges being accepted in this thread. At some level, at least some of them must believe that they really do have special powers.
I don't think that necessarily follows. I believe these folks accept challenges because they either believe even the challenger will defer to them due to the cultural taboo against disrespecting venerated elders, or (especially in the case of western charlatans) they expect their underlings to have properly filtered out true skeptics with bad intentions and to only be allowing phony/complicit "challengers" to have access to the master for dramatic demonstration purposes.
I think it's more that many people are suggestible, and if you* are wide-eyed and sitting at the feet of a great sensi trying to learn cosmic wisdom, then you are putting yourself in a suggestible frame of mind, and that when your sensi demonstrates the rather... implausible...techniques, you will often convince yourself that you were affected. When in controlled "sparring" with similar people, you will find that the techniques do work, because of the everyone's suggestibility so you convince yourself that you have this mystic power.

No dishonesty is needed, just human nature.





*I get tired of writing "one"
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:54 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Nominated.
Thank you for taking the time.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I'm with you on this.
Thanks for saying so.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:19 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I consider all martial arts, and specifically those which the majority originate from China, Japan and Brazil to be bogus, hocus pocus. I include all derivations of such martial arts, even MMA (which relies heavily on boxing/wrestling skills to gain knock outs and submissions).
You're biasing your opinion of the whole field on the basis of only a few examples.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm not talking about stick fighting in Africa etc. I'm talking about the ***** you see in the movies, 'cos that's what most people think about when martial arts are talked about and that's how most participants see themselves at some point when they take these sports up and they can deny it till Kwai Chang Caine comes home.
If you think that movie combat is the same as martial arts, you have an awful lot to learn about both movie combat and martial arts. They are two extremely different fishies.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I understand that a lot of people have a lot invested in martial arts in terms of time alone not to mention money. I understand that some have attained fancy honorifics that they may not be willing to concede are pretty meaningless outside the gym and the same goes for colourful belts and other attire.
See, this is where your lack of knowledge shows. Most martial arts don't have belts, sashes or honorifics. I would contend that the ones that do have the largest showy honours and badges are in the public eye because they do so, and they do so in order to be visible and popular. After all, how do you get people coming to your school instead of someone else's? You make grand claims about your secret teachings and reward people with a visible badge when they do what you want them to do instead of what other teachers want them to do.

In WMA (which is where my personal knowledge lies), the only judge of skill is whether you can put your sword into the other guy's face before he puts his sword into yours.

For your edification, here's a little passage from Paradoxes of Defence, written and published in 1599 by George Silver:

Quote:
There were three Italian teachers of offense in my time. The first was Signior Rocco, the second was Jeronimo, that was Senior Rocco his boy, that taught gentlemen in the Black Friars, as usher for his master in stead of a man. The third was Vincentio. This Senior Rocco came into England about some thirty years past. He taught the noblemen & gentlemen of the court. He caused some of them to wear leaden soles in their shoes, the better to bring to nimbleness of the feet in their fight. He disbursed a great sum of money for the lease of a fair house in Warwick lane, which he called his college, for he thought it great disgrace for him to keep a fence school, he being then thought to be the only famous master of the art of arms in the whole world. He caused to be fairly drawn and set round about his school all the noblemen's and gentlemen's arms that were his scholars, amd hanging right under their arms their rapiers, daggers, gloves of mail and gauntlets. Also, he has benches and stools, the room being very large, for gentlemen to sit round about his school to behold his teaching. He taught none commonly under twenty, forty, fifty, or a hundred pounds. And because all things should be very necessary for the noblemen & gentlemen, he had in his school a large square table, with a green carpet, done round with a very broad rich fringe of gold, always standing upon it a very fair Standish covered with crimson velvet, with ink, pens, pen-dust, and sealing wax, and quivers of very excellent fine paper gilded, ready for the noblemen & gentlemen (upon occasion) to write their letters, being then desirous to follow their fight, to send their men to dispatch their business. And to know how the time passed, he had in one corner of his school a clock, with very fair large dial. He had within his school, a room the which was called the privy school, with many weapons therein, where he did teach his scholars his secret fight, after he had perfectly taught them their rules. He was very much beloved in the court.

There was one Austin Bagger, a very tall gentleman of his hands, not standing much upon his skill, but carrying the valiant heart of an Englishman, upon a time being merry among his friends, said he would go fight with Signior Rocco, presently went to Signior Rocco his house in the Blackfriers, and called to him in this manner: Signior Rocco, you are thought to be the only cunning man in the world with your weapon, you that takes upon yourself to hit any Englishman with a thrust upon any button, you that takes upon yourself to come over the sea, to teach the valiant noblemen and gentlemen of England to fight, you cowardly fellow, come out of your house if you dare for your life, I am come to fight with thee. Signior Rocco, looking out at a window, perceiving him in the street to stand ready with his sword and buckler, with his two hand sword drawn, with all speed ran into the street, and manfully let fly at Austin Bagger, who most bravely defended himself, and presently closed with him, and struck up his heels, and cut him over the breech, and trod upon him, and most grievously hurt him under his feet. Yet in the end Austin of his good nature gave him his life, and there left him. This was the first and last fight that ever Signior Rocco made, save once at Queen Hith he drew his rapier upon a waterman, where he was thoroughly beaten with oars and stretchers, but the odds of their weapons were as great against his rapier, as was his two hand sword against Austin Bagger's sword and buckler, therefore for that fray he was to be excused.
ETA: I added this mainly because it's fun and I think it will amuse, but it does also show that martial arts doesn't need tinsel to be effective.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:40 PM   #284
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The Death Spot
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal by Zach Weinersmith
Original: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-death-spot
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Old 17th April 2018, 03:47 AM   #285
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I agree with a lot of the comments here. I've been doing martial arts for around 40 years and have tried different styles. The best ones show you how to effectively transfer your body weight behind one part of your body (i.e. hit hard), create pain by exploiting the body's weak points (locks, bars etc) or move the other person's body centre of gravity (throws and take downs). The rest is just fluff.

Last edited by Greebo; 17th April 2018 at 03:48 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 17th April 2018, 07:08 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
https://i.imgur.com/KuUdwJC.png

The Death Spot
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal by Zach Weinersmith
Original: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-death-spot
I'm psychic! I just KNEW someone was going to beat me to posting this.
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:00 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
I agree with a lot of the comments here. I've been doing martial arts for around 40 years and have tried different styles. The best ones show you how to effectively transfer your body weight behind one part of your body (i.e. hit hard), create pain by exploiting the body's weak points (locks, bars etc) or move the other person's body centre of gravity (throws and take downs). The rest is just fluff.
I recall an interview with one kyokushinkai (IIRC) instructor who said (in effect): the less you can actually fight, the more likely you are to have hocus-pocus.
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Old 17th April 2018, 09:41 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
I agree with a lot of the comments here. I've been doing martial arts for around 40 years and have tried different styles. The best ones show you how to effectively transfer your body weight behind one part of your body (i.e. hit hard), create pain by exploiting the body's weak points (locks, bars etc) or move the other person's body centre of gravity (throws and take downs). The rest is just fluff.
Mostly agreed, except with "create pain", I'd go with "threaten to break". An armbar isn't about causing pain to the joint, it's about applying leverage which, if continued, will break the joint. Joint locks are about damage or potential damage. Pain really isn't that effective, especially when your adrenaline gets going.
Of course in training you generally tap before the damage happens, but I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who trains BJJ for more than a few years without having an elbow popped in an armbar, a shoulder injury from a kimura or (and?) a wrist, knee or ankle hurt from one of those locks. Partly because when you first start training you don't know when to tap (pain isn't enough to make it clear to you without experience) and partly because sometimes a submission comes on so fast that you just don't have time to tap before at least some damage has been done.

I'd add chokes as well, which are a different thing but also extremely effective. In BJJ chokes are generally considered to be a better way of finishing your opponent than joint locks in part because they don't cause injury. Depending on your situation that might make it easier to de-escalate, or at least prevent further escalation of violence.
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Old 17th April 2018, 03:11 PM   #289
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Ian Dury wrote a song about East London Martial Arts


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Old 18th April 2018, 09:47 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Originally Posted by Greebo View Post
I agree with a lot of the comments here. I've been doing martial arts for around 40 years and have tried different styles. The best ones show you how to effectively transfer your body weight behind one part of your body (i.e. hit hard), create pain by exploiting the body's weak points (locks, bars etc) or move the other person's body centre of gravity (throws and take downs). The rest is just fluff.
Mostly agreed, except with "create pain", I'd go with "threaten to break". An armbar isn't about causing pain to the joint, it's about applying leverage which, if continued, will break the joint. Joint locks are about damage or potential damage. Pain really isn't that effective, especially when your adrenaline gets going.
Some do go with "create pain" (or worse, create some magical disruption by means of contacting specific points) but I'd agree with you that this is worthless and probably requires cooperation (you know what is expected of you and you will do this). A surprisingly high percentage of people will do this.
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:24 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Some do go with "create pain" (or worse, create some magical disruption by means of contacting specific points) but I'd agree with you that this is worthless and probably requires cooperation (you know what is expected of you and you will do this). A surprisingly high percentage of people will do this.
Pain perception is situational. We've all experienced sitting down to chill and realizing you strained a muscle or got a paper cut a while back but just notice it now and now it hurts. Demonstrating these techniques in a calm setting, people notice the pain because the technique is what they're focused on. In a fight those same pain receptors will be doing the equivalent of "You know what, you're busy, it can wait".
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Old 19th April 2018, 08:57 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Some do go with "create pain" (or worse, create some magical disruption by means of contacting specific points) but I'd agree with you that this is worthless and probably requires cooperation (you know what is expected of you and you will do this). A surprisingly high percentage of people will do this.
Creating pain is the objective for freestyle sparring, and threatening to break is a combat application. Pressure points are real, though. Usually just anatomical weak spots, where nerves are close to the surface (behind the collarbone and an inch below the elbow being old standbys). The only magical part is how much they can hurt with very little effort. Pressure points go hand in hand with joint manipulation in that they exploit weak areas, which can even the odds against a stronger opponent
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:29 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Creating pain is the objective for freestyle sparring, and threatening to break is a combat application.
Sorry but no. In sparring you don't tap to an armbar or a choke because you are in pain. You tap because you know, through experience, that if you don't you will either be injured or go unconscious.
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Old 20th April 2018, 01:43 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Mostly agreed, except with "create pain", I'd go with "threaten to break". An armbar isn't about causing pain to the joint, it's about applying leverage which, if continued, will break the joint. Joint locks are about damage or potential damage. Pain really isn't that effective, especially when your adrenaline gets going.
Of course in training you generally tap before the damage happens, but I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who trains BJJ for more than a few years without having an elbow popped in an armbar, a shoulder injury from a kimura or (and?) a wrist, knee or ankle hurt from one of those locks. Partly because when you first start training you don't know when to tap (pain isn't enough to make it clear to you without experience) and partly because sometimes a submission comes on so fast that you just don't have time to tap before at least some damage has been done.

I'd add chokes as well, which are a different thing but also extremely effective. In BJJ chokes are generally considered to be a better way of finishing your opponent than joint locks in part because they don't cause injury. Depending on your situation that might make it easier to de-escalate, or at least prevent further escalation of violence.
All agreed - apologies for gross over simplification to make a point.

Most of my joints have a degree of hypermobility (in some joints commonly known as double jointed). This has been a help (high kicks were easy - validity of being an appropriate self defense technique is questionable in some circles), but in my early days of training it was a hindrance. It was more awkward to put some wrist / arm locks on me - I couldn't feel the pain as my joints moved more. Like you say, I soon learnt learnt when to tap out, when others felt pain, I felt a resistance in the joint. The chaos and adrenaline of a street fight takes the edge of the sensations though.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:15 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sorry but no. In sparring you don't tap to an armbar or a choke because you are in pain. You tap because you know, through experience, that if you don't you will either be injured or go unconscious.
From the recipients POV, yes. The nage still does not intend to break the joint, though, and goes to great lengths to not do so. In context of the OP, the distinction between what you are really doing versus what you are simulating is more important than usual. I think sparring is simulating a threat to break more than actually threatening it, and that is closer to creating controlled pain.
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Old 20th April 2018, 10:08 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From the recipients POV, yes. The nage still does not intend to break the joint, though, and goes to great lengths to not do so.
Probably depends on who you are training with. I certainly go slower on a submission when training that when competing. You don't want to injure your training partners. And I will also tap earlier in training than in competition - maybe you could have escaped, but it's not worth the risk of injury. That balance changes a little in competition (and certainly in a real situation where there is no tapping). But even in training once I've got the control I'm going to keep it and keep adding pressure until you tap. That's your responsibility. And if you don't tap? Yeah, something's going to pop.

Chokes even more so. No one is worried about accidentally choking a friend out. If the other guy doesn't tap and goes unconscious, no worries. He'll wake up. The only time I went unconscious from a choke I woke up and everyone was laughing. I felt pretty great too. I actually had an amazing dream that felt like it lasted for hours, and woke up feeling like I'd just had a full night's sleep.

We don't choke each other out all the time, but most guys will end up getting choked out at some point. Usually because a choke comes on faster than you realise. Before you know that it's on, you're unconscious.
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Old 21st April 2018, 07:00 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Probably depends on who you are training with. I certainly go slower on a submission when training that when competing. You don't want to injure your training partners. And I will also tap earlier in training than in competition - maybe you could have escaped, but it's not worth the risk of injury. That balance changes a little in competition (and certainly in a real situation where there is no tapping). But even in training once I've got the control I'm going to keep it and keep adding pressure until you tap. That's your responsibility. And if you don't tap? Yeah, something's going to pop.
That's fair, I hadn't thought of it that way. I have always stopped at the positive lock and waited for the tap, but I can see that in competition you would push closer to the line to escape, and getting that close to the line will sometimes cross over it.

Quote:
Chokes even more so. No one is worried about accidentally choking a friend out. If the other guy doesn't tap and goes unconscious, no worries. He'll wake up. The only time I went unconscious from a choke I woke up and everyone was laughing. I felt pretty great too. I actually had an amazing dream that felt like it lasted for hours, and woke up feeling like I'd just had a full night's sleep.

We don't choke each other out all the time, but most guys will end up getting choked out at some point. Usually because a choke comes on faster than you realise. Before you know that it's on, you're unconscious.
Chokes have always been lumped in with knee and eye strikes for me, too much liability to safely mess with on the floor, and we work escapes from them more than delivery. The concern I hear is potential lawsuits from cutting off blood to the brain. Eric Garner (NYC) was in the choke for about 15 secs or so and it killed him, IIRC.
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