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Tags "A Wilderness of Error" , "Fatal Vision" , errol morris , Jeffrey MacDonald , Joe MacGinniss , murder cases

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Old 29th October 2017, 03:58 AM   #3241
Henri McPhee
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The Bruce Fowler alibi is about as farcical as Mitchell saying he might have been staying with his parents that night, or Dwight Smith saying he could not recall where he was the night before, and Helena saying she could not remember where she was for several hours that night to Ivory, or even Mazerolle saying he was in jail during the MacDonald murders. Don't the Army CID and FBI know how to check out an alibi?

The official line about the Fowler alibi, and it's a lie is: "Shelby Don Harris was with Diane Cazeres at her apartment while she was painting the bathroom until about 5:a.m. the next morning and Bruce Fowler was with Kathy Smith at her trailer until late in the morning of February 17 1970.

This is part of what Stoeckley said to Brisintine about the matter:

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...onclusion.html

Quote:
u. That she went into hiding to evade police arrest subsequent to the homicides and considered fleeing from Fayetteville, North Carolina.

v.* That she knew the identity of the persons who killed Mrs. MacDONALD and her children.

w.* That if the Army would give her immunity from prosecution, she would furnish the identity of those offenders who committed the murder and explain the circumstances surrounding the homicides.

During the interview on 23 April 1971, Miss STOECKLEY repeatedly acknowledged knowing the identity of the persons who committed the murders in question. However; on 24 April 1971, Miss STOECKLEY related that she had been incorrect in her statements, had "talked too much", and that she only suspected some people of committing the homicides.

At this time Miss STOECKLEY stated suspected Don HARRIS, a caucasian male who told her after the homicide that he must leave Fayetteville, North Carolina as he could find an alibi for the time of the murder; Bruce FOWLER, the owner of the blue Mustang automobile in which she (Miss STOECKLEY) was a passenger or driver on the night of the homicide; Janett FOWLER, the wife of Bruce FOWLER and was employed as a "Go-Go" dancer in Fayetteville, North Carolina at the time of the homicides; Joe Kelly, a negro soldier who was assigned to a Medical Holding Detachment at Womack Ary Hospital, Fort Bragg, North Carolina at the time of the homicides; and a negro male she knew only as "Eddie", who introduced her (Miss STOECKLEY) to heroin.

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Old 29th October 2017, 04:06 AM   #3242
Henri McPhee
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More from that Helena Stoeckley confession to Brisentine:

Quote:
At one time during the pre-test interview on 24 April 1971, Miss STOECKLEY asserted that she had been lying when she admitted knowing who committed the homicides and stated that Cpt MacDONALD had killed his family. Further, that her rationale was based on the fact that four "hippies" could not have entered Cpt MacDONALD's home without being observed by neighbors or causing dogs to bark. The examiner pointed out that the homicide was alleged to have occurred at about 0330 hours in the morning and it supposedly raining. Miss STOECKLEY immediately exclaimed that it had been drizzling rain during the night but that it did not start to rain hard until after the homicide. When the examiner inquires as to how she acquired this information, Miss STOECKLEY exclaimed "I have already said too much". Later during the interview Miss Stoeckley repeated her previous statement by saying she suspected "hippie type" individuals of the crime.

Based on a polygraph examination conducted on 24 April 1971, it is concluded that Miss STOECKLEY is convinced in her mind that she knows the identity of those person(s) who killed Collette, [sic] Kimberly, [sic] and Christine [sic] MacDONALD. It is further concluded that Miss STOECKLEY

page 3

in her mind is convinced that she was physically present when the three members of the MacDONALD family were killed.
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Old 29th October 2017, 05:48 AM   #3243
desmirelle
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She also said she had sex with macdonald and watched him murder his family. Literally the only confession apart from "I don't know where I was, I did too many drugs" that fits the evidence.

Interesting that you cherry-pick bits and pieces of her multiple confessions to support your man crush when the only evidence points to him.

Boring that you refuse to address the evidence and his consciousness of guilt statements.
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Old 29th October 2017, 09:56 AM   #3244
Henri McPhee
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There is an interesting five minute You Tube about the MacDonald case from Fox News with a defense lawyer and a former prosecutor speaking on camera. It is not exactly profound or detailed, but it might be of interest to the average Joe who knows very little about the case. You can't really accuse it of being biased, like Judge Dupree or Judge Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy4vnYxer7Q
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Old 29th October 2017, 06:19 PM   #3245
JTF
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Fantasy World

As I mentioned in a prior post, your word definitions (e.g., frank, candid, farcical) are your own. I have no issue with your decision to live in a fantasy world, but when you transport that world into real world cases, I'm going to call you out. Every time. For example...

You are the ONLY advocate of inmate to challenge Fowler's alibi, to challenge Mazzerolle's incarceration on 2/17/70, and to expect Smith to remember his exact movements 12 years after the fact. Your fantasy laden thought process creates ominous scenarios where none exist. You also ignore data that contradicts your fantasy narrative.

In Fowler's case, he was acquainted with Stoeckley, Mitchell, and Don Harris. In 1971, Dick Mahon and William Ivory interviewed Fowler, he denied any involvement in the murders, and he passed a CID-administered polygraph exam. The CID collected head hair and fingerprint exemplars from Fowler, and no match was found at the crime scene.

In addition, Fowler had an alibi for his whereabouts on February 17, 1970. Stoeckley's roommate, Kathy Smith, told the CID that she was with Fowler at his trailer on Highway 59 until 7:00 a.m. In 1981, the FBI questioned and cleared Fowler as a suspect.

In 1999, the defense made no request for a DNA sample to be collected from Bruce Fowler which indicates a lack of confidence in Fowler being a viable intruder candidate. The totality of this data diametrically opposes your conspiracy narrative involving the CID and FBI.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

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Old 30th October 2017, 10:09 AM   #3246
byn63
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
As I mentioned in a prior post, your word definitions (e.g., frank, candid, farcical) are your own. I have no issue with your decision to live in a fantasy world, but when you transport that world into real world cases, I'm going to call you out. Every time. For example...

You are the ONLY advocate of inmate to challenge Fowler's alibi, to challenge Mazzerolle's incarceration on 2/17/70, and to expect Smith to remember his exact movements 12 years after the fact. Your fantasy laden thought process creates ominous scenarios where none exist. You also ignore data that contradicts your fantasy narrative.

In Fowler's case, he was acquainted with Stoeckley, Mitchell, and Don Harris. In 1971, Dick Mahon and William Ivory interviewed Fowler, he denied any involvement in the murders, and he passed a CID-administered polygraph exam. The CID collected head hair and fingerprint exemplars from Fowler, and no match was found at the crime scene.

In addition, Fowler had an alibi for his whereabouts on February 17, 1970. Stoeckley's roommate, Kathy Smith, told the CID that she was with Fowler at his trailer on Highway 59 until 7:00 a.m. In 1981, the FBI questioned and cleared Fowler as a suspect.

In 1999, the defense made no request for a DNA sample to be collected from Bruce Fowler which indicates a lack of confidence in Fowler being a viable intruder candidate. The totality of this data diametrically opposes your conspiracy narrative involving the CID and FBI.
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Old 31st October 2017, 10:22 AM   #3247
Henri McPhee
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The MacDonald case needed an impartial and fair and just judge instead of the 'in bed with the prosecution' judges Fox and Dupree, and the 4th Circuit, and most of the Supreme Court judges. It's ridiculous for an innocent man to be in prison just based on opinions and bad police work.

I agree with what Sydney Carton posted on that Zeta MacDonald forum in 2014:

Quote:
Here is the Judge Fox's opinion.
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...-fox-order.pdf

There is a lot to said about it. Mostly negative.
As I pointed out previously (There is not enough absolutely new evidence to warrant a new trial, considering the conflict of evidence (2) but the 4th Circuit ordered Judge Fox to conduct an hearing on all the post-trial evidence which he refused to do first time around.(3) Now after more years delay he issues an opinion and rules that it is unappealable, therefore the defense can't take the case back to the 4th Circuit!

Of course they can appeal his decision! But the aptly named Fox seems to be pursuing the same policy adopted by Scott Peterson"s and Tommy Ziegler's prosecutors:Create so many legal obstacles that the new witnesses and ,with luck, the defendant will all be dead of old age before they can get a hearing.
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:03 AM   #3248
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inmate had his fair trial AND THEN SOME. People with cognitive skills and the ability to read the facts and determine the right and wrong of things recognize that the original trial Judge - The Honorable Judge Dupree was a more than fair, upright, equitable, and distinguished jurist. A less responsible and honorable Judge would not have worked as hard as Judge Dupree did to counter the negative impact Bernie Segal was having on the jury. Bernie Segal would NOT have been good at teaching "how to win friends and influence people" because he was a condescending jerk who continually pissed people off to the detriment of his client. Judge Fox has taken up the reigns of the case and has made every effort to be honorable, fair, up-right, reasonable and impartial. The real issue for inmate is that he is guilty and the good jurists (and the great jurists) all see through his narcissistic sociopathic bastard that slaughtered his pregnant wife and children.
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Old 31st October 2017, 10:20 PM   #3249
JTF
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Reality Punching Fantasy In The Face

The following portion of a decision leveled by the 4th Circuit Court (e.g. 1992) speaks to the landlord's decade long attempt to rehabilitate debunked defense arguments.

MacDonald's counsel argues that government concealment of this evidence at trial prevented counsel from later discovering and then raising the evidence in the first habeas petition. While MacDonald may have an argument for cause at trial, the argument is inapposite here. Counsel's possession of the relevant documents prior to the first habeas petition negated any concealment claim. We find that MacDonald has made no credible showing of cause.

Having dispensed with the cause and prejudice exception, we now determine whether MacDonald has shown that dismissal of his petition would result in a fundamental miscarriage of justice. This is a difficult showing to make. Courts are instructed to grant review under this exception only in "extraordinary instances." McCleskey, 111 S.Ct. at 1470. We find that this case does not constitute such an instance. The evidence raised here, when considered with all the trial evidence, simply does not rise to a "colorable showing of factual innocence" necessary to show a fundamental miscarriage of justice.

It neither supports MacDonald's account of the murders nor discredits the government's theory. The most that can be said about the evidence is that it raises speculation concerning its origins. Furthermore, the origins of the hair and fiber evidence have several likely explanations other than intruders. The evidence simply does not escalate the unease one feels with this case into a reasonable doubt.

We have carefully reviewed the voluminous record of evidence in this case, beginning with the original military Article 32 proceedings through the present habeas petition, which contains over 4,000 pages. Yet we do not find anything to convince us that the evidence introduced here, considered with that previously amassed, probably would have raised reasonable doubts in the minds of the jurors.

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...A_opinion.html

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Old 1st November 2017, 03:34 AM   #3250
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by byn63 View Post
Judge Fox has taken up the reigns of the case and has made every effort to be honorable, fair, up-right, reasonable and impartial. The real issue for inmate is that he is guilty and the good jurists (and the great jurists) all see through his narcissistic sociopathic bastard that slaughtered his pregnant wife and children.
The judges and the criminal trial judge and the appeal judges in the MacDonald case were awful. MacDonald was convicted on guesswork and bias and false evidence and the appeals have been just the same. The real culprits have gone free. There is a good article on the internet about all this by Lynn Parramore:

Quote:
As I read Morris’ meticulous examination the evidence, the picture in my mind became less clear. I began to see that Joe McGinniss’ creation of Picture #1 might be just that: a creation. Some of the “facts” I thought I knew began to look more like ideas conjured by eager prosecutors and a journalist who had dealt so disingenuously with Jeffrey MacDonald in writing Fatal Vision that he was sued after publication. McGinniss' publisher settled with MacDonald out of court, after the judge called the author a “conman.” *(This story, in its own right, became a famous book about journalistic ethics by Janet Malcolm.)
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012...rder-case.html

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Old 1st November 2017, 05:34 AM   #3251
byn63
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The Honorable Judge Dupree was a skilled, honest, up-right jurist who worked hard during trial to be sure that the damage Bernie Segal was doing to his client by his condescension was limited. He was fair and impartial and he came to the correct conclusion.

The Honorable Judge Fox has been just as fair and impartial, honest and up-right in his decision making. He is a good jurist who considers all the evidence and follows the letter of the law.

The REAL ISSUE here is that inmate is guilty. He slaughtered his family in a brutal, vicious, heinous manner and then showed the white feather with his cowardice by not admitting to what he has done. Just because you throw a temper tantrum, stamp your little feet, scream, cry, and roll around on the floor having a hissy fit DOES NOT MAKE THE OUTCOME DIFFERENT.

Just because the Judges have not let your man crush off does not mean they were unskilled or biased in any way. Sometimes the guilty get exactly what they deserve. In this case the guilty got CLOSE to what he deserves - sadly the DP was not an option, and under the prison would have been next best....3 consecutive life sentences is appropriate.
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Old 1st November 2017, 01:46 PM   #3252
JTF
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Pesky Documentation

Contrary to the fantasy narrative produced by Ms. Parramore, there is no record of Judge Rea referring to Joe McGinniss as a "conman." Ms. Parramore and the landlord have also studiously ignored the commentary leveled by Federal Magistrate James McMahon who stated that inmate's complaint made it "sound like MacDonald's a spurned lover and he wants to blacken McGinniss's reputation. This whole lawsuit smells like a grudge suit."

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:46 AM   #3253
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
Contrary to the fantasy narrative produced by Ms. Parramore, there is no record of Judge Rea referring to Joe McGinniss as a "conman."
http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
I can't find a reference to Judge Rea referring to Joe McGinniss as a conman. Perhaps he said it to a journalist, or in private, or the quote is being confused with Sarah Palin?

MacDonald's lawyer, Gary Bostwick, at that McGinniss trial in 1987 did say "You and I depend upon the writers and publishers of books to tell the truth, and we need the truth. And in this case, we didn't get the truth." Bostwick started his closing speech by saying it was truly outrageous.

With regard to an alibi, as in the MacDonald case, there was a case of some horrible murders in the UK in the 1980s with a pedophile gang headed by a fairground worker called Sidney Cooke, involving about 20 murdered young boys. The point is in the first murder he just told the police he was at a different fairground at the time of the murder which was meekly accepted by the police. I would have thought it was routine police work to verify an alibi, and that should have been done with the Stoeckley group in the MacDonald case.

There is background to that Cooke case at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/570385.stm
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Old 2nd November 2017, 03:45 PM   #3254
JTF
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Hilarious

In the landlord's world of circular logic, Ms. Parramore can essentially make false claims (e.g., Judge Rea calling McGinniss a "conman"), yet STILL produce a "good article." Wow. In terms of Bostwick's claim that McGinniss didn't tell the truth, he ended up with egg on his face for the civil jury was unable to find any significant errors in Fatal Vision. In regards to the presentation of the forensic evidence, there are NO errors to be found in Fatal Vision. The same cannot be said of Fatal Justice.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 2nd November 2017 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 03:46 AM   #3255
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
In regards to the presentation of the forensic evidence, there are NO errors to be found in Fatal Vision. The same cannot be said of Fatal Justice.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
Fred Bost and Potter wrote sense in Fatal Justice. This is what Caroline thought of the conman and drunken Irish son of a bitch Joe McGinniss and his Fatal Vision book in 2012:

Quote:
I had to stop reading this halfway through, which is still an achievement since it is a 600 page behemoth of crap. I have no idea how this book gets such glowing reviews!

McGinniss is not only highly biased and fails to present a convincing case against Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, a doctor accused (and later convicted) of killing his family in 1970. First, the book is poorly written and lacking in editing. It seems that McGinniss includes anything anyone ever said about anything related to this case at all. It's not exhaustive, it's exhausting. McGinniss' book is basically a character assassination rather than a forensic argument for guilt. MacDonald is an *******, but that doesn't mean he is a murderer. I am not so sure that McGinniss understands this.

My breaking point was when McGinniss begins over-analyzing the class notes Colette MacDonald took in her Child Psych class the night of her murder, as if her study notes were some kind of diary. Come on.

I have read neither Janet Malcolm nor Errol Morris' book about Fatal Vision, but I am eager to. Seems like we are on the same page (yuk yuk).
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:26 AM   #3256
byn63
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Fatal Justice aka Fatal Joke is the worst reading experience I have ever had. The book is replete with errors (we've estimated at least 1 major error for every 5 pages of text). It is a joke, starting with the "B" movie Golden Dragon'd door entry to the Chinese restaurant at the end of a foggy alley way, right down to the nonsense about Helena's various confessions. FJ is full of misrepresentation, cut and paste presentation, and out right lies. It is a waste of an intelligent persons reading time. It is such an awful read that it took me months to get through it - and I AVERAGE reading 10 books per week.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:04 AM   #3257
desmirelle
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Fred Bost and Potter wrote NONsense in Fatal Justice. <snip>:
FIFY
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:11 PM   #3258
JTF
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Gunderson Article

This is my definition of a good article.

https://omgfacts.com/this-fbi-agent-...s-a3a5917ea08c
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Old 4th November 2017, 03:57 AM   #3259
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
This is my definition of a good article.

https://omgfacts.com/this-fbi-agent-...s-a3a5917ea08c
Gunderson was a retired senior FBI man when he was working for Jeffrey MacDonald. Ever since then the dishonest prosecutors in the MacDonald case have attempted to discredit Gunderson, and have him imprisoned when he was alive. There was a similar sort of case with the customs official Carman who was jailed after exposing drug smuggling in the San Diego area.

MacDonald can no longer afford to employ private investigators to go around asking questions and get information received. That's why the MacDonald Defense Fund is important, which I believe is tax deductible, and it can it be accessed at MacDonald's personal website.

The P.C. Plods in the California police just think people like Helena Stoeckley, and Nancy Krebs in the Jon Benet Ramsey case are fruitloops.

There is some interesting gossip about all this at this website. For some reason the author describes the MacDonald case as the MacDonald Douglas case, but some of what he reports can make your hair curl and it mentions Gunderson.

http://tradcatknight.blogspot.co.uk/...epy-biden.html
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:25 AM   #3260
Henri McPhee
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There are biased videos on You Tube about the MacDonald case, like extracts from that Fatal Vision fiction TV movie, and interviews with Kassab talking a lot of nonsense about the lack of blood in the living room. This is a fair and just You Tube video which is sympathetic to MacDonald:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eJkVrMyTYQ
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Old 5th November 2017, 07:03 PM   #3261
JTF
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Say It Ain't So

The main advocate for conspiracy nonsense on true crime forums agrees with the unhinged thought process of Ted Gunderson? Say it ain't so. Nice plug for inmate's defense fund. Smell that sarcasm? It's important to note that inmate was so impressed with Gunderson's work, he felt compelled to fire Teddy Boy in 1983.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 5th November 2017 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 6th November 2017, 05:44 AM   #3262
byn63
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The article was pretty good but inmate received 3 consecutive life sentences not concurrent (big difference). Also, no mention of the fact that Gunderson didn't simply "retire" he was forced out under allegations of illegal activities....or perhaps it is better stated he was allowed to retire rather than put the FBI into the position of having to do a full scale criminal investigation on one of its own. I have heard several times that old Teddy G was black-balled from the Retired Special Agents Society - pretty big come down for a former AIC.
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Old 6th November 2017, 09:40 AM   #3263
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
The main advocate for conspiracy nonsense on true crime forums agrees with the unhinged thought process of Ted Gunderson? Say it ain't so. Nice plug for inmate's defense fund. Smell that sarcasm? It's important to note that inmate was so impressed with Gunderson's work, he felt compelled to fire Teddy Boy in 1983.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
I agree that Gunderson might have got himself involved into dangerous waters by associating with known financial fraudsters and American Nazis, but I still think he was no fool. The dishonest MacDonald prosecutors were very keen to discredit Gunderson and Detective Beasley. It's like saying you need to see a psychiatrist if you accused Blackburn of dishonesty, or Harvey Weinstein of hanky-panky, or that child sex rings don't exist, or even that President Bush and President Johnson had nothing to do with the death of JFK.

As I understand it, Gunderson resigned from the MacDonald case because MacDonald owed him $100000. Gunderson never changed his mind about MacDonald's innocence.

There is a bit of background to Gunderson and the MacDonald case at this website:

http://historybud.com/dr-jeffrey-mac...govt-cover-up/
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Old 6th November 2017, 01:37 PM   #3264
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Ted Gunderson was an egomaniac that thought the rules didn't apply to himself. He got himself into trouble by doing things that were illegal. Then, he became a bigger nutcase by bringing forth not just conspiracy theories but Satanic Cult conspiracy theories. Not a single shred of evidence has ever come forward to prove his nonsense and quite a bit of evidence exists that he cheated and lied and manipulated poor drugged out Helena....taping her confessions and then manipulating the text to try and piece together a facsimile of a possible confession, but again, it was proven that Ted lied, and Ted set-up Helena to become the "scape-goat" but it didn't work. Real skilled investigators proved that Ted didn't know his head from a hole in the ground.

Again we go back to IF you are going to believe one of Helena's confessions than the only one you can possibly believe is the one where she claimed to have watched inmate slaughter Colette, Kimmie, and Kristy. It is the ONLY one of her confessions that comes close to matching the evidence....and it is only "close" not reality. Thinking persons know that Gunderson was off his rocker and was willing to lie, cheat, and steal to achieve his own gains. Didn't work in this case, inmate remained where he belongs and Gunderson ended his day as a laughing stock.
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Old 6th November 2017, 07:51 PM   #3265
JTF
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Read It And Weep

In a 1980 confession, Stoeckley claimed that Jeffrey MacDonald was beaten for eight full minutes in the living room, and that Colette was clubbed to death on the master bed by two unidentified people. Stoeckley added that one of the children remained asleep on the master bed as her mother was being beaten to death. In a 1982 confession, Stoeckley claimed that the cult planned on obtaining blood from Colette for ritualistic purposes and that she knew that one of the children was transported back to her own bed, even though she did not witness this event taking place.

The information that Stoeckley provided to Ted Gunderson was included in a 1984 appeal for a new trial. The government responded to this and other appeal issues in a 91-page report. In comparing audiotapes of Stoeckley's interviews with Gunderson to the typed transcripts, the government concluded that "it became apparent that these were not transcripts of recorded interviews but rather questions and answers which had been extracted from the tapes, arranged in a sequence designed to delete conflicting responses by Stoeckley and blended into a transcript like statement, which Stoeckley later initialed."

The government also states that during certain audiotapes, "Stoeckley had come perilously close to contradicting her previous whereabouts." The following note to his secretary made it clear that Gunderson was concerned about Stoeckley's disjointed statements.

"June, this is all we're going to record on this tape. I'm going back and try to pick up the mistakes that I made on the other tapes. So, in order to avoid confusion, that's the end of this tape. Don't type anything more off of it."

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/suspects.html
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:51 AM   #3266
Henri McPhee
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It's clearly erroneous, and even biased, to reject and ignore the Helena Stoeckly and Greg Mitchell confessions. From the internet:

Quote:
Several people say Stoeckley, a troubled drug addict and narcotics informant for Fayetteville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee, police who died in the ’80s, admitted before her death that she was at the MacDonald house the night of the killings. (Her then-boyfriend, Greg Mitchell, also *repeatedly confessed and has also since died.)
“The government fought very vigorously to keep that evidence [Stoeckley’s statements] out of the trial. They did not want the jury to hear that,” Miles explained.

Stoeckley testified but said she could not remember where she was the night of the murders.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:08 AM   #3267
Henri McPhee
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I agree that the Gunderson interview with Helena Stoeckley is not of broadcasting quality. The fact remains that it is relevant to the MacDonald case. Videos of police interviews and confessions of murder suspects are now routinely used in murder trials in courtrooms as evidence.

A half hour version is on You Tube.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 7th November 2017 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:28 AM   #3268
byn63
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It makes perfect sense to ignore Helena's confessions. Not one of Helena's many confessions matched the evidence or inmate's story. There is NOTHING to support any of Helena's confessions as being the truth. THE CLOSEST she came to matching evidence or inmate's story is the one in which she claimed she watched inmate slaughter his family.

Greg Mitchell never directly confessed and there is no evidence at all to support that he was in any way involved.

Ted Gunderson was a crazy person and his nonsense is just that - NONSENSE!
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Old 7th November 2017, 04:23 PM   #3269
JTF
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Peas In A Pod

The tactics employed by Gunderson/Beasley to manipulate Stoeckley into confessing were succinctly presented in the government's 7/18/84 response brief.

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_ma...rial_memo.html

The following is the government's synopsis of their (e.g., Gunderson/Beasley) unethical behaviors.

With total disregard for the truth, and for Stoeckley's right as a human being, Gunderson and Beasley devised a stratagem in which they would convince Stoeckley that she had been present at the crime scene, and at the same time, soothing her with reassurances that she had not actively participated. The fact that in the process they were fabricating an accusation of murder against her actual associates seem not to have troubled these former law enforcement officers at all.

Speaking of Stoeckley's associates, the landlord studiously ignores the FACT that Gunderson admitted to defense counsel that "While Stoeckley said that a man named Allen Mazzerole was also with her group, investigation since her death discloses that he was not." Gunderson apparently didn't realize that he was throwing his partner (e.g., Beasley) under the bus.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 7th November 2017 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:20 AM   #3270
Henri McPhee
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I don't know if it's just me, but I can no longer access the Gunderson and Helena Stoeckley half hour interview on You Tube, or the BBC False Witness MacDonald case documentary. I don't know if that's censorship by the Justice Department but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

There used to be a story that Gunderson and Detective Beasley conned Helena into thinking she would not be prosecuted if she confessed because the offense took place several years before. The trouble is that rule doesn't apply to murder. Beasley used to say that the next logical step would be to interview the rest of the Stoeckley group The Army CID and FBI and prosecution were only interested to eliminate them from the inquiry so that MacDonald would suffer as a result. The Stoeckley group, and Mazerolle, have never been properly or thoroughly investigated.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:27 AM   #3271
byn63
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The fact that Gunderson and Beasley manipulated poor Helena into her confessions (and recantations) is a stain on the honorable professions that they each had once been a part. The FACT that the FBI allowed Gunderson to retire rather than continue the investigation and likely prosecution for his actions as SAIC apparently didn't deter him from continuing criminal or at least un-ethical behavior. The one positive in Gunderson's involvement in this case is that he ADMITTED THAT ALLEN MAZEROLLE WAS NOT INVOLVED. Since there is copious amounts of evidence to prove that Allen M could not possibly have been involved from his jail cell we can skip ahead and discuss the unethical activities that Gunderson did.....including convincing Helena that the statute of limitations was up and she therefore could not be prosecuted and/or that she would be given immunity from prosecution.

Statute of Limitations - there is no such thing in murder cases.

Immunity from Prosecution - neither Gunderson or Beasley was in a position to offer this to Helena. AT BEST they could say they would TRY and get such a boon.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:03 AM   #3272
Henri McPhee
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There is a fairly legible transcript of an interview by Helena Stoeckley to Detective Beasley and Gunderson at :

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...sion_1980.html

There used to be gossip on the internet that Gunderson said he would help Helena get immunity, and even help Helena and her husband get a job and settle in California I suppose Gunderson might have been insincere about that. The 'in bed with the prosecution' judges just said it was some kind of forced confession. Judge Dupree always said that Mitchell and Stoeckley were probably courting on a bridge somewhere on the night of the murders!

I have always been suspicious that Helena died soon after appearing on television and saying she was going to blow the lid off of Fort Bragg. She had also complained to Detective Beasley that there were strange men around her apartment. Greg Mitchell died about the same time as Helena, after his numerous confessions, and being interviewed by the SBI, or the South Carolina Bureau of Investigation, and saying he was badly scared and trying to get out of the country. I appreciate their health was not good but to my mind Murtagh and Blackburn could finally keep their mouths shut for good that way.

Dr. MacDonald tried to get one of his friends and medical colleagues to investigate the Helena Stoeckley autopsy to allay his fears, but I'm not sure he was successful in that.
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Old 8th November 2017, 11:19 AM   #3273
byn63
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the problem with the transcripts that the landlord seems to be skipping over IS THAT IT IS NOT A TRUE TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW. Gunderson skipped through, picked questions and/or comments and attempted to string them together as a cohesive narrative. That FRAUD was caught and pointed out to the presiding Judges at the hearings. The FACT is that the confessions obtained by Gunderson were fraudulent and useless. WE are back to the ONLY CONFESSION that comes close to matching the evidence is the one in which Helena said she watched inmate slaughter his family.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:53 PM   #3274
JTF
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You Can Run, But You Can't Hide

For the past decade plus, the landlord has studiously ignored posts that challenge his specious claims. To piggyback on Byn's post, the landlord closed his eyes/ears to my recent post on Gunderson's manipulation of Stoeckley's so-called confession.

In comparing audiotapes of Stoeckley's interviews with Gunderson to the typed transcripts, the government concluded that "it became apparent that these were not transcripts of recorded interviews but rather questions and answers which had been extracted from the tapes, arranged in a sequence designed to delete conflicting responses by Stoeckley and blended into a transcript like statement, which Stoeckley later initialed."

The government also states that during certain audiotapes, "Stoeckley had come perilously close to contradicting her previous whereabouts." The following note to his secretary made it clear that Gunderson was concerned about Stoeckley's disjointed statements.

"June, this is all we're going to record on this tape. I'm going back and try to pick up the mistakes that I made on the other tapes. So, in order to avoid confusion, that's the end of this tape. Don't type anything more off of it."

www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:43 AM   #3275
Henri McPhee
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I agree that Gunderson's interview with Helena Stoeckley might not have been according to the rules of evidence and procedure, or the Judge's rules, and that she should have been cautioned, or told she could have had a lawyer. That's how the dishonest prosecution and 'in bed with the prosecution' judges and Joe McGinnisss and Gene Weingarten and JTF try to pick it apart. The fact is that Greg Mitchell also confessed several times, though not to a cop, and also Cathy Perry confessed, though legally I suppose you could say she was deranged. The whole MacDonald case was poor police work.

Evan Hughes once wrote a fair and just article about all this with reference to the Errol Morris book A Wilderness of Errors:

http://www.theawl.com/2012/09/the-mu...he-journalists

Quote:
Morris’ book isn’t the definitive narrative either, because no such thing exists, but it shows just how many troublesome facts must be swept under the rug to accept McGinniss’ account — just how many improbabilities we need to accept to be confident that Jeffrey MacDonald should be living his life in prison. In an interview nine years after a North Carolina jury convicted MacDonald of triple homicide, one of the jurors spoke of his lingering concern about the matter of Helena Stoeckley: “We should have been told more about that*woman.”

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 9th November 2017 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:21 AM   #3276
byn63
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Anyone else notice that MacFantasy Island landlord skipped over the part of the Gunderson used illegal methods AND cut and paste to try and create a cohesive confession when in reality Helena clearly was not involved and he knew it. It has nothing to do with the prosecution or the presiding Judge or anyone from the government - it is all on Gunderson being a liar, a cheat, a dishonest jackass and he attempted to use those to get a lying narcissistic sociopathic murdering bastard out of the punishment he justly received.
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:59 PM   #3277
JTF
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End Run

Those who have discussed/researched this case for the past decade plus are old pros at responding to the regurgitated/debunked claims leveled by the poster with many identities. Logic dictates that we should ignore this true crime troll and keep him at the children's table, but we would be remiss if we didn't protect newcomers from the landlord's mythical case narrative.

The good news is that massive case record has essentially crushed the landlord's attempt at an evidentiary end run. He is now forced to rely on hyperbole, insults, and claims that lack merit. It is evident that he will not even present a cursory rebuttal to the mass of physical evidence that links inmate to this brutal crime.

Yeah, we know how he feels about the appellate system, the CID, FBI, and the DOJ, but none of the employees of these organizations left bloody bare footprints at the crime scene. None of the employees left bloody cuff impressions on the blue bedsheet. None of the employees had Kristen's blood on their reading glasses. None of the employees left their broken, bloody arm hair in Colette's left hand.

Jeffrey MacDonald is the lone source of these evidentiary items. He was convicted by a jury of his peers in less than 7 hours. He has received more chances at freedom than any murderer in history, yet he remains in prison. He is not only guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, he is guilty beyond all doubt.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com

Last edited by JTF; 10th November 2017 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:59 PM   #3278
BStrong
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Churchill may or may not have coined the phrase, but this:

FANATIC: One who can’t change his opinion and won’t change the subject.

Is clearly applicable to HMP.

If JM was released out into the wild, we'd likely read a news report of a certain little poster stalking their man crush.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:25 AM   #3279
Henri McPhee
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I don't regard the ridiculous subject of MacDonald guilt, without facts or evidence, as some sort of religious belief and obsession, like some people.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:26 AM   #3280
desmirelle
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't regard the ridiculous subject of MacDonald guilt, without facts or evidence, as some sort of religious belief and obsession, like some people.
No, you regard the legal and proper conviction of Jeffrey Macdonald of the slaughter by his own hands of his pregnant wife Colette and daughters Kim and Kris as a personal affront of some sort, disregarding facts and evidence which point to his guilt. There is no evidence you can cite without cherry-picking confessions from a mentally ill woman and a PTSD suffering veteran, both of whom also denied doing it and without any evidence of their presence in the Macdonald quarters the night of the murders.

We (yeah, me and talking for others) realize the victims here are Colette, Kim and Kris and that Macdonald's incarceration problem is one of his own making; so we're fine with him where he is. He's earned it. And he owes a bunch of days from 1970 - 1979 and the time he was released for the spurious "double jeopardy" ruling.

Your man crush is guilty. Get over it. You don't have a shred of evidence (and a confession is useless unless it fits the evidence, FYI) to back your bigoted claims that the prosecutors and judges were/are all 'crooked'. The only person dishonest here is Jeffrey Macdonald.
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