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Old 20th September 2022, 02:52 AM   #1721
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This was one of mine too. What is more likely - that 399,000 religions are wrong and one is right, or that 400,000 religions are wrong?
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
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Old 20th September 2022, 04:41 AM   #1722
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

Can you define the beliefs of atheists in way that justifies that statement?

Quote:
The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Which one?
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Old 20th September 2022, 05:25 AM   #1723
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Can you define the beliefs of atheists in way that justifies that statement?




Which one?
The One and Only True One, surely. You know, MINE!
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Old 20th September 2022, 05:57 AM   #1724
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
“Not believing in God is a religion in the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
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Old 20th September 2022, 07:44 AM   #1725
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.
Strange, then, that there is precisely zero evidence for any god.
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Old 20th September 2022, 01:25 PM   #1726
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
If this is the case, then kindly show that your god actually does exist.
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Old 20th September 2022, 02:23 PM   #1727
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.
In the same way that abstinence is a sex position.

Quote:
The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
That is what we are patiently waiting to hear from you Emre ...... reason and evidence.

All we get is quotes from your holy book, with your own personal interpretation of the meanings thereof. No even agreed too by your fellow believers.
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Last edited by Thor 2; 20th September 2022 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 20th September 2022, 02:42 PM   #1728
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.
Not unless black is a color.

Quote:
The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam
All cults claim to be based on reason and evidence.

Quote:
Peace
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Old 20th September 2022, 06:18 PM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.
In the same way that bald is a hairstyle.
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Old 20th September 2022, 06:19 PM   #1730
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
Name the main god of atheism.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:55 AM   #1731
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Can you define the beliefs of atheists in way that justifies that statement?
LOL Dare I double the length of this thread by stating that atheists believe that there are no gods?
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:30 AM   #1732
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By the Prophet's saffron beard!

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If this is the case, then kindly show that your god actually does exist.
When you are being stoned for blasphemy, then you shall know that GOD is real!
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Last edited by sackett; 21st September 2022 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:30 AM   #1733
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Oh good now the Time Cube is here to argue with the Toynbee Tile and the Bottle of Dr. Bonner's Soap.
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Old 21st September 2022, 11:17 AM   #1734
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.
Reason tells me the evidence in the Quran is utter tripe.

You must believe in Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale, and that Noah lived to be 950 years old, and that the sun orbits the earth, and the heaven and earth were created in six days. etc. etc.
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Old 21st September 2022, 11:24 AM   #1735
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
LOL Dare I double the length of this thread by stating that atheists believe that there are no gods?

Only if you are willing to lie.
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Last edited by Mojo; 21st September 2022 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:09 PM   #1736
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Reason tells me the evidence in the Quran is utter tripe.

You must believe in Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale, and that Noah lived to be 950 years old, and that the sun orbits the earth, and the heaven and earth were created in six days. etc. etc.

There's this half-remembered story that I was told at Sunday School, that (for some reason) is nagging at me.

Something to do with motes and beams...I don't know, I think it was supposed to be a call-out against hypocrites.

Whatever, I agree with Scorpion that the Quran offers no convincing evidence for any of it's claims. This is (to my knowledge) the only thing that we have ever agreed on.





I don't expect this situation to change.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:42 PM   #1737
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
There's this half-remembered story that I was told at Sunday School, that (for some reason) is nagging at me.

Something to do with motes and beams...I don't know, I think it was supposed to be a call-out against hypocrites.

Whatever, I agree with Scorpion that the Quran offers no convincing evidence for any of it's claims. This is (to my knowledge) the only thing that we have ever agreed on.





I don't expect this situation to change.

Seeing theists of different colour, point out the inadequacies of each others faith, is always a heart warming experience.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:15 PM   #1738
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Holy Quran says polytheists are trying to reduce the world population

6:137 And it was adorned for the polytheists, by their partners, to kill their children in order to turn them and to confound their system for them. Had God willed they would not have done this, so ignore them and what they invent.

14:46 Andthey schemed their scheming, and their scheming is known to God; and their scheming was enough to make the mountains cease to exist.

2:205 And if he gains power, he seeks to corrupt the earth and destroy its crops, and the lineage. God does not love corruption.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:29 PM   #1739
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran says polytheists are trying to reduce the world population
What is a polytheist? Previously you were talking about atheists, who believe no gods exist. Technically, a polytheist is someone who believe one or more gods exist. So Islam is a polytheistic religion.

So let us move on...

Quote:
6:137 And it was adorned for the polytheists, by their partners, to kill their children in order to turn them and to confound their system for them. Had God willed they would not have done this, so ignore them and what they invent.

14:46 And they schemed their scheming, and their scheming is known to God; and their scheming was enough to make the mountains cease to exist.

2:205 And if he gains power, he seeks to corrupt the earth and destroy its crops, and the lineage. God does not love corruption.
Apart from the fact this applies to Islam, this passage makes no particular sense. It's a jumble of words, basically. So of course you can make it mean anything you want.

Also, you have not answered my previous question:
Quote:
Name the main god of atheism.
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:02 PM   #1740
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These are the three unworthy foods: eggs, and fish, and chicken.

The worthiest dish is roast camel stuffed with a sheep, stuffed with chickens, stuffed with fish, stuffed with eggs. The Messenger said, How is this? Again, How is this? And again, Hey, Emre, what is going on outside my cave?

Oh well, at least Persian women dare not cut their hair.

Beg pardon, Emre? Say that again?
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:11 PM   #1741
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
These are the three unworthy foods: eggs, and fish, and chicken.


Oh well, at least Persian women dare not cut their hair.

Beg pardon, Emre? Say that again?
Drop the hadiths. Only Quran is Islam:

http://quranic.org/

The headscarf is a practice of Judaism and Christianity.

In Islam/the Quran there is no headscarf, no stoning, no circumcision, no communism, no black stone, no holy people, no asceticism, these are in the false Bible.
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:41 PM   #1742
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post

In Islam/the Quran there is no headscarf, no stoning, no circumcision, no communism, no black stone, no holy people, no asceticism, these are in the false Bible.
In non believers there is no headscarf, no stoning, no black stone, no holy people, none of that crap you listed.
We don't even need imams or a Qur'an, bible or any sacred text.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:45 PM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Drop the hadiths. Only Quran is Islam:

http://quranic.org/

The headscarf is a practice of Judaism and Christianity.

In Islam/the Quran there is no headscarf, no stoning, no circumcision, no communism, no black stone, no holy people, no asceticism, these are in the false Bible.
The Islamic government of Iran just killed a woman who defied Islamic law about headscarves. And hundreds of thousands make the Hajj annually to Mecca where Mohammad rode to heaven as a central tenet of every Muslim's faith.

You seem to be redefining Islam to suit yourself alone.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:43 PM   #1744
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Holy Quran says polytheists are trying to reduce the world population

6:137 And it was adorned for the polytheists, by their partners, to kill their children in order to turn them and to confound their system for them. Had God willed they would not have done this, so ignore them and what they invent.

14:46 Andthey schemed their scheming, and their scheming is known to God; and their scheming was enough to make the mountains cease to exist.

2:205 And if he gains power, he seeks to corrupt the earth and destroy its crops, and the lineage. God does not love corruption.
Interesting. And instead of your usual posts, actually testable.

There are some countries that still practice polytheism. The most obvious one being Hinduism.
So, if your holy book is right that should be a country with a shrinking population......

The Quran is wrong.

It is therefore not a holy book.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:24 AM   #1745
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The Islamic government of Iran just killed a woman who defied Islamic law about headscarves. And hundreds of thousands make the Hajj annually to Mecca where Mohammad rode to heaven as a central tenet of every Muslim's faith.

You seem to be redefining Islam to suit yourself alone.
Making Emre’s claims where I am would result in a Sharia trial with the potential outcome of two years in prison. One of the major parties in the governing coalition, with an Islamist approach, advocates execution for deviancy from their style of Islam.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:37 AM   #1746
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
Making Emre’s claims where I am would result in a Sharia trial with the potential outcome of two years in prison. One of the major parties in the governing coalition, with an Islamist approach, advocates execution for deviancy from their style of Islam.
I have asked Emre if any Islamic authority- court, mufti, organisation- recognises his version of Islam as true.
So far, silence from him on that subject.
As you say, to express such beliefs in many Islamic countries would invite severe punishment. This is especially true where I am, too- Saudi Arabia.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 02:56 AM   #1747
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
s. And hundreds of thousands make the Hajj annually to Mecca where Mohammad rode to heaven as a central tenet of every Muslim's faith.

.

The act of pilgrimage/hajj is real and only the Qur'an gives the correct way to do it. In fact, all the details of all worship are only in the Qur'an:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.p...6028#msg436028

There is no such practice as touching the black stone or stoning the devil during Hajj.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:16 AM   #1748
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The act of pilgrimage/hajj is real and only the Qur'an gives the correct way to do it. In fact, all the details of all worship are only in the Qur'an:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.p...6028#msg436028

There is no such practice as touching the black stone or stoning the devil during Hajj.
In other words, your god needs to be worshipped in one special way, otherwise your god will consider the worship to be invalid.

This is load of crap because earlier you were claiming that "real religion is based on reason and evidence".

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Atheism and deism are both religions also.

The real religion is based on reason and evidence. So that is Islam.

Peace
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:33 AM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The Islamic government of Iran just killed a woman who defied Islamic law about headscarves. And hundreds of thousands make the Hajj annually to Mecca where Mohammad rode to heaven as a central tenet of every Muslim's faith.

You seem to be redefining Islam to suit yourself alone.
Actually, that was Jerusalem.
However, it seems you can make up any old crap and call it Islam, so, why not?

Me first:
Mohammed ascended to heaven from the top of the Arndale Centre in Manchester, riding on a bag of chips with pea-wet. (Pea-wet is the watery liquid part of mushy peas, and having it on chips is a Manchester thing).
There is clear evidence of this. (But I'm not going to post it).
Anyone who disagrees with me is a polytheistic atheist poopyhead who is wrong.
Women from all over the world write me grateful emails, thanking me for enlightening them about the true, Manchester-based Islam.
Peas.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 05:57 AM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, that was Jerusalem.
However, it seems you can make up any old crap and call it Islam, so, why not?

Me first:
Mohammed ascended to heaven from the top of the Arndale Centre in Manchester, riding on a bag of chips with pea-wet. (Pea-wet is the watery liquid part of mushy peas, and having it on chips is a Manchester thing).
There is clear evidence of this. (But I'm not going to post it).
Anyone who disagrees with me is a polytheistic atheist poopyhead who is wrong.
Women from all over the world write me grateful emails, thanking me for enlightening them about the true, Manchester-based Islam.
Peas.
In shaa Liam.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 09:04 AM   #1751
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, that was Jerusalem.
However, it seems you can make up any old crap and call it Islam, so, why not?

Me first:
Mohammed ascended to heaven from the top of the Arndale Centre in Manchester, riding on a bag of chips with pea-wet. (Pea-wet is the watery liquid part of mushy peas, and having it on chips is a Manchester thing).
There is clear evidence of this. (But I'm not going to post it).
Anyone who disagrees with me is a polytheistic atheist poopyhead who is wrong.
Women from all over the world write me grateful emails, thanking me for enlightening them about the true, Manchester-based Islam.
Peas.
I read this on the Internet so it must be true.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:42 AM   #1752
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I have been to Arndale Centre in Manchester
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Old 23rd September 2022, 01:54 AM   #1753
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I have been to Arndale Centre in Manchester
Every True MuslimTM should visit the Manchester Arndale Centre at least once in their lifetime.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:31 AM   #1754
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Every True MuslimTM should visit the Manchester Arndale Centre at least once in their lifetime.
Was just there last week lol
Wife made the pilgrimage, I was just a tag-along as the record shop in Afflecks was closed.
I did circle Afflecks seven times and touched the Tony Wilson mosaic.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:52 AM   #1755
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
In shaa Liam.
I suppose I should call my new version of the Muslim faith 'Isliam'.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 07:11 AM   #1756
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Emre, you may think that these posts about my forming a new version of Islam, now called Isliam, is disrespectful to Islam, and just mocking your views.
This is not the case: I am actually making a serious point here.
If anyone can simply stand up and proclaim that they know the true message of Islam, and that a great deal of current Islamic belief is wrong, without giving any evidence or justification beyond saying 'because I said so', that is showing massive disrespect to the billions of Muslims around the world, whose faith incorporates so much of what you reject. You are telling all Muslims, from Grand Muftis to the average Abdullah on the street, that their faith is a sham, that they are misguided and wrong, and that only you have the real answers. That is far more insulting to Muslims than non-Muslims: we (non-Muslims) don't really care either way what Muslims believe, because we don't believe any of it. It is Muslims whose beliefs you are trampling on.

Moreover, your take on Islam is not argued from any great position of Islamic scholarship. You are not arguing your beliefs with Muslim scholars: you have instead chosen to try to spread your message on sceptics' forums, which are not generally populated with such academics. If you genuinely believed that your ideas had merit, you would be engaging with Muslim scholars and authorities. I am guessing that the reason you don't is twofold: you know you would lose such a debate, and you are scared of the consequences, in terms of fatwas and charges of apostasy.
As a final point to Emre, can I ask if you pray five times a day, and, if you do, do you face Mecca? I'm asking because of your earlier rejection of the Ka'aba as a focus of worship.
In a general point, going back to my satirisation of Emre's pontificating, if anyone can set themselves up as the founder of a new sect of Islam, a sect that rejects a great deal of current Muslim belief, and on such shaky foundations, what does that say about Islam, and religion in general? If you can stand up and say that, somehow, the omnipotent god failed to transmit his message properly, and that this time, finally, he's got it right, because I'm the only person in hundreds of years that could understand correctly, then it makes that god look pretty stupid. If this god, or any god, is so damned wonderful, why can't he just tell us what we should believe and how we should worship him, in plain language and in a form that makes it undeniable it came from god? Better yet, why can't he just appear in person- as, so we are told, he was more than happy to do in the past- and settle it all once and for all?
For me, the answer is obvious: because god doesn't exist. For the faithful, though, this is- or ought to be- a more troubling question.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:25 AM   #1757
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Emre, you may think that these posts about my forming a new version of Islam, now called Isliam, is disrespectful to Islam, and just mocking your views.
This is not the case: I am actually making a serious point here.
If anyone can simply stand up and proclaim that they know the true message of Islam, and that a great deal of current Islamic belief is wrong, without giving any evidence or justification beyond saying 'because I said so', that is showing massive disrespect to the billions of Muslims around the world, whose faith incorporates so much of what you reject. You are telling all Muslims, from Grand Muftis to the average Abdullah on the street, that their faith is a sham, that they are misguided and wrong, and that only you have the real answers. That is far more insulting to Muslims than non-Muslims: we (non-Muslims) don't really care either way what Muslims believe, because we don't believe any of it. It is Muslims whose beliefs you are trampling on.

Moreover, your take on Islam is not argued from any great position of Islamic scholarship. You are not arguing your beliefs with Muslim scholars: you have instead chosen to try to spread your message on sceptics' forums, which are not generally populated with such academics. If you genuinely believed that your ideas had merit, you would be engaging with Muslim scholars and authorities. I am guessing that the reason you don't is twofold: you know you would lose such a debate, and you are scared of the consequences, in terms of fatwas and charges of apostasy.
As a final point to Emre, can I ask if you pray five times a day, and, if you do, do you face Mecca? I'm asking because of your earlier rejection of the Ka'aba as a focus of worship.
In a general point, going back to my satirisation of Emre's pontificating, if anyone can set themselves up as the founder of a new sect of Islam, a sect that rejects a great deal of current Muslim belief, and on such shaky foundations, what does that say about Islam, and religion in general? If you can stand up and say that, somehow, the omnipotent god failed to transmit his message properly, and that this time, finally, he's got it right, because I'm the only person in hundreds of years that could understand correctly, then it makes that god look pretty stupid. If this god, or any god, is so damned wonderful, why can't he just tell us what we should believe and how we should worship him, in plain language and in a form that makes it undeniable it came from god? Better yet, why can't he just appear in person- as, so we are told, he was more than happy to do in the past- and settle it all once and for all?
For me, the answer is obvious: because god doesn't exist. For the faithful, though, this is- or ought to be- a more troubling question.
Be careful of this. It has not worked out very well for those of the Baháʼí Faith.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:06 AM   #1758
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As you can see, friends, true Islam is only in the Quran. The only source of religion is the Holy Quran. I have easily proved this to you (of course, those who read all I wrote and the links I gave saw the evidence)

As for salat, only the Qur'an tells you how to salat correctly again:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.p...6026#msg436026
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Old 23rd September 2022, 09:39 AM   #1759
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
As you can see, friends, true Islam is only in the Quran. The only source of religion is the Holy Quran. I have easily proved this to you (of course, those who read all I wrote and the links I gave saw the evidence)

As for salat, only the Qur'an tells you how to salat correctly again:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.p...6026#msg436026
What an incredibly silly rigamarole God wants you to do to make a simple request of him.

I much prefer Jesus's approach:
Quote:
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (New International Version, Matthew 6:6)
How did He get it so wrong?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:43 AM   #1760
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
What an God wants


How did He get it so wrong?
This is not prayer. This is salat. They are different.

In the Quran, pray is the easiest. You can pray even lying on your side. You don't even need to close the door.

The explanation I have given in the link is to salaat/namaz.

Salaat includes praying also.

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