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Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

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Old 21st September 2022, 06:58 PM   #641
Michel H
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Originally Posted by GraculusTheGreenBird View Post
Whataboutism, as I would expect from a Russian propagandist. Irrelevant to the current discussion. Still, since you want to go there, Nato bombing to stop the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Albanians would have got UN approval it was not vetoed by, you guessed it, Russia.

I am unsurprised to see you on the side of genocide and ethnic cleansing. After all, its what you are.
There was no genocide in Kosovo. The president of Kosovo Ibrahim Rugova was himself against the (illegal) bombing conducted by NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_b...a_headquarters). I suspect Clinton wanted a kind of revenge after the Lewinsky scandal, in 1998.

I have proposed a simple peace plan for Ukraine, which would stop the current violence, partly fueled by the West, and protect minorities.

Obviously, the goal of this plan is not to cause genocide, it is to help and protect people in many places.

You seem to be better at insulting people than in proposing concrete solutions.
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:04 PM   #642
Michel H
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How about this for a peace plan:

Russia withdraws to its pre-2014 borders, ceases meddling in the affairs of other countries, Donbas and Crimea are returned to Ukraine, Russia pays reparations to Ukraine for the infrastructure that they destroyed during the war, and turns over all war criminals for trial in the Hague?

Perfect plan for complete peace in the region.
Your project seems to be more a recipe for civil war than a real peace plan.

Have asked yourself the question whether the people in Crimea and eastern Donbass would be happy being forced back into Ukraine?
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:41 PM   #643
GraculusTheGreenBird
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There was no genocide in Kosovo. The president of Kosovo Ibrahim Rugova was himself against the (illegal) bombing conducted by NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_b...a_headquarters). I suspect Clinton wanted a kind of revenge after the Lewinsky scandal, in 1998.

I have proposed a simple peace plan for Ukraine, which would stop the current violence, partly fueled by the West, and protect minorities.

Obviously, the goal of this plan is not to cause genocide, it is to help and protect people in many places.

You seem to be better at insulting people than in proposing concrete solutions.
Your "concrete proposal" rewards Russia for its aggression and encourages them to try again, and doesn't punish them for its crimes. It is unacceptable to Ukraine, obviously.

My concrete proposal? Push out every invading Russian from Ukraine, dead or alive.

If those in Donbas or Crimea don't like living in Ukraine, they are free to move to Russia.

Why would you think Russian Propagandist is an insult? Its just what you are. If you don't like the label, stop posting Russian propaganda.

Saying you disgust me, on the other hand, is both an insult and a fact.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:03 PM   #644
Michel H
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Originally Posted by GraculusTheGreenBird View Post
Your "concrete proposal" rewards Russia for its aggression and encourages them to try again, and doesn't punish them for its crimes. It is unacceptable to Ukraine, obviously.

My concrete proposal? Push out every invading Russian from Ukraine, dead or alive.

If those in Donbas or Crimea don't like living in Ukraine, they are free to move to Russia.
What you are actually suggesting is an ethnic cleansing: "If you don't like living in your own country, just go to another one!". This is not a real peace plan, and repeating your insults does nothing to improve it.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:39 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Your project seems to be more a recipe for civil war than a real peace plan.

Have asked yourself the question whether the people in Crimea and eastern Donbass would be happy being forced back into Ukraine?
We'll ask the people who live there (including people who fled during the 2014 invasion) once the Russians invaders are all killed, taken prisoner or flee. It's not as if there's any way to do that with the Orcs still there. You can't get good data out of the Russians. Anything that came out now would be tainted by the presumption of Russian dishonesty.
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Last edited by Craig4; 21st September 2022 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:41 PM   #646
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There was no genocide in Kosovo. The president of Kosovo Ibrahim Rugova was himself against the (illegal) bombing conducted by NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_b...a_headquarters). I suspect Clinton wanted a kind of revenge after the Lewinsky scandal, in 1998.

I have proposed a simple peace plan for Ukraine, which would stop the current violence, partly fueled by the West, and protect minorities.

Obviously, the goal of this plan is not to cause genocide, it is to help and protect people in many places.

You seem to be better at insulting people than in proposing concrete solutions.
No one is doing anything with your idea. It's uppity of you to call it a plan. Besides no one has time for the bull **** of genocide supporter like you.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:56 PM   #647
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No one is doing anything with your idea. It's uppity of you to call it a plan. Besides no one has time for the bull **** of genocide supporter like you.
But you wrote recently something like:
"Did you see the United Nations General Assembly?
Indian Prime Minister Modi proposed Michael H's peace plan."
and then erased your post. What made you change your mind?

Last edited by Michel H; 21st September 2022 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:01 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
What you are actually suggesting is an ethnic cleansing: "If you don't like living in your own country, just go to another one!". This is not a real peace plan, and repeating your insults does nothing to improve it.
Utterly wrong, Russian Propagandist.

"If you don't like living in your own country, just go to another one!" is NOT ethnic cleansing, as if they don't move to another country, their alternative is to lump it and stay. The have that free choice.

"Move to another country or we will kill you" would be ethnic cleansing, as if they don't move to another country, their alternative is death.

I obviously suggested the former, not the latter.

We can now place ethnic cleansing on the list of things you don't understand.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:02 PM   #649
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
We'll ask the people who live there (including people who fled during the 2014 invasion) once the Russians invaders are all killed, taken prisoner or flee. It's not as if there's any way to do that with the Orcs still there. You can't get good data out of the Russians. Anything that came out now would be tainted by the presumption of Russian dishonesty.
Have you ever asked yourself whether the Russians will be happy getting killed, and will say:"Oh yes, please kill us more!".
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:13 PM   #650
Michel H
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Originally Posted by GraculusTheGreenBird View Post
Utterly wrong, Russian Propagandist.

"If you don't like living in your own country, just go to another one!" is NOT ethnic cleansing, as if they don't move to another country, their alternative is to lump it and stay. The have that free choice.

"Move to another country or we will kill you" would be ethnic cleansing, as if they don't move to another country, their alternative is death.

I obviously suggested the former, not the latter.

We can now place ethnic cleansing on the list of things you don't understand.
You said:"If those in Donbas or Crimea don't like living in Ukraine, they are free to move to Russia."

To me, this is not paying due attention to the wishes and sensitivities of the local people, it is suggesting ethnic cleansing. People may feel they have to flee, not because they are really threatened with death, but because they hate their American-imposed Ukrainian government, which may for example impose the Ukrainian language (this has been really seen in Ukraine).

The kind of pressure they may feel doesn't need to be death threat, it may be of a more cultural or political nature (think about joining NATO for example, or imposing again sanctions on Russia).

Last edited by Michel H; 21st September 2022 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:47 PM   #651
Aridas
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Meanwhile, on the topic of peace -

Quote:
He ended the address by broaching the subject of peace talks, which have stalled for months despite some progress on specific issues like grain exports and a U.N. nuclear mission.

“Probably you have heard different words from Russia about the talks, as if they were ready for them,” he said, before alluding to Russia’s efforts to call up more soldiers and to hold referendums in occupied territory. “They talk about the talks but announce military mobilization,” he said. “They talk about the talks but announce psuedo-referendums.”

He said that Ukraine, in contrast, was not just ready for talks, but for “true, honest fair peace.” The heads of state and diplomats in the audience gave him a sustained ovation after he added, “That’s why the world is on our side.”
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Old 21st September 2022, 10:48 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You said:"If those in Donbas or Crimea don't like living in Ukraine, they are free to move to Russia."

To me, this is not paying due attention to the wishes and sensitivities of the local people, it is suggesting ethnic cleansing. People may feel they have to flee, not because they are really threatened with death, but because they hate their American-imposed Ukrainian government, which may for example impose the Ukrainian language (this has been really seen in Ukraine).

The kind of pressure they may feel doesn't need to be death threat, it may be of a more cultural or political nature (think about joining NATO for example, or imposing again sanctions on Russia).
There is no "American-imposed" Ukrainian government. Pure Russian propaganda.

No Ukrainian language has been imposed, people are free to continue to speak and publish in Russian to their hearts content. Zelenksy, as you know full well, is a Russian speaker.

Ukrainian Media outlets must publish in Ukrainian under new laws, but are free to also publish in whatever languages they like, including Russian, which they will continue to do as there is obviously a large market for it.

This is why you are accused of being a Russian propagandist, because you spout Russian propaganda.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 12:39 AM   #653
Aridas
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Originally Posted by GraculusTheGreenBird View Post
This is why you are accused of being a Russian propagandist, because you spout obvious and inane Russian propaganda.
FTFY
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:12 AM   #654
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There was no genocide in Kosovo. The president of Kosovo Ibrahim Rugova was himself against the (illegal) bombing conducted by NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_b...a_headquarters). I suspect Clinton wanted a kind of revenge after the Lewinsky scandal, in 1998.
The conspiracy section is thataway ---->

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I have proposed a simple peace plan for Ukraine, which would stop the current violence, partly fueled by the West, and protect minorities.

Obviously, the goal of this plan is not to cause genocide, it is to help and protect people in many places.
And yet a genocide is already under way in the occupied territories with those not in favour of the junta spirited away to "re-education camps" in Russia, cities being levelled and Ukrainian civilians being tortured and killed.

Meanwhile the Russia state media is pushing the narrative that Ukraine is not a country, that Ukrainian is not a language and that the whole idea of Ukraine needs to be erased.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You seem to be better at insulting people than in proposing concrete solutions.
A concrete solution has been proposed many times. Russia should abide by the terms of the treaty it signed to preserve Ukraine's borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal.

Russia should withdraw entirely from all of Ukraine and pay suitable reparations for the damage it has caused to Ukraine.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:35 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Have you ever asked yourself whether the Russians will be happy getting killed, and will say:"Oh yes, please kill us more!".
I don't have to. I see what the filthy orcs do when confronted with force superior to them in every way. They run back to Russia.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 01:53 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
There was no genocide in Kosovo. The president of Kosovo Ibrahim Rugova was himself against the (illegal) bombing conducted by NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_b...a_headquarters).
Let's see, that Wikipedia link has a main article link to NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. That article says in the first line of the second paragraph:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Nato Bombing of Yugoslavia
NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region.
Unless you want to wade into the nitpicking territory of whether "ethnic cleansing" is genocide or not, the average person would consider that to be a form of genocide.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 02:29 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Let's see, that Wikipedia link has a main article link to NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. That article says in the first line of the second paragraph:



Unless you want to wade into the nitpicking territory of whether "ethnic cleansing" is genocide or not, the average person would consider that to be a form of genocide.
And let's not forget, this was after years and years of letting the Serbians run amock in the neighbouring countries and going for a little ethnic cleansing there.
Europe had waited far too long and did nothing whle things went from bad to worse in the former Yugoslavia.
And when it looked like the Serbians were going to start it all again with the Albanians, Europe and nato finally said 'enough is enough' and started their bombing campaign.
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