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Old 11th September 2022, 03:34 AM   #1361
Carrot Flower King
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
the proof is in the pudding. you have to repent to experience it.
At least get the quote/reference right, will you?

It's the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

And I don't do repentance, as I don't accept your concept of "sin". I don't even accept a Methodist concept of sin and that was the one I was brought up with.

If you don't want folk to criticise your "faith", you really need to stop basing half of what you say on said faith and using that as your "evidence": it is you who is inextricably linking these things, not anyone else.
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Old 11th September 2022, 06:05 AM   #1362
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I await a declaration of the validity of TOBS from any of the prophets of God recognized by the Church of Latter Day Saints. That would be, at present, President Russell M. Nelson, or any of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

To accept any such revelation from some other source not recognized as prophetic by the Mormon Church would be contrary to Mormon doctrine, and thus constitute Mormon-bashing, which is not allowed in this thread.
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Old 11th September 2022, 11:09 AM   #1363
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Using TOBS to Get Relief from Chronic Pain / Q&A

And therein lies the problem. For all his "Repent ye! Repent ye!" poor Billy really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on -- scientifically or doctrinally.

He's already admitted he doesn't have evidence in the traditional sense. Most skeptics properly check out at that point. But he says he has "experience" that should fill the gap. For skeptics it only fills the gap if it can somehow be developed into testable, objective evidence. Simply taking one person's subjective experience as evidence is very anti-skeptical. In any case, Billy seems uninterested in any such exercise. All that's left is his claim that obedience to his religion will provide what he proffers as evidence -- which we know from prior experience means an uncontrolled somatic experiment. It's not convincing evidence, but it's all he has left.

To save you from reading the linked screed, Billy opens with some standard Mormon truth claims, which I know most of us are familiar with. You don't have to address those claims. Even accepting them arguendo, Billy's theory still falls flat. He bait-and-switches into his "body signals" claims by saying it's just another way of delivering divine communication, not unlike the claims made about Mormon leaders being divinely inspired. Then follows a tortured exegesis of his theory from Mormon canon.

To be clear, he disclaims that TOBS is not "official doctrine" in Mormonism, and that's well-stated. It isn't, and to claim it is would jeopardize his standing in the church. Rank and file Mormons are not allowed to add doctrines. Local leaders, not just the folks a few blocks from me in Salt Lake City, are responsible for making sure their individual members don't profess individual revelations. To do so would be punished as apostasy.

But he's trying to walk the fine line between "Not part of my religion, which I claim is the only true one," and "Divinely inspired, such that I'm its revelator and you can know this by God's confirmation to you." It's more akin to holding one foot on the dock and one foot in the boat: it's an inherently unstable and unsafe position. He claims if we obey his religion -- sanctifying and humbling ourselves by its standards -- we can understand via the somatic experience that TOBS is endorsed by Jesus. The problem is that he can't make the same request of his fellow Mormons and remain in good standing. Mormons are specifically cautioned against considering the doctrinal validity of theories propounded by other rank-and-file members, which are not taught worldwide by the established hierarchy.

As I mentioned, it's considered apostasy for him to ask other Mormons to entertain TOBS as a doctrine derived from scripture and endorsable by the standard somatic test in Mormonism. He knows this, which is why he keeps hedging by admitting he might be wrong. He has to, otherwise he's going to have yet another interview with his bishop about preaching false doctrine. By the same token, his exhortation for people here -- skeptic or not -- to apply a religious test to his claims is moot. It's not valid for people in his faith, so it's nonsensical for people outside his faith.

To hide his failed equivocation, he vows to ignore any "Mormon bashing." Even though everyone notes that his claims rely heavily on Mormon truth claims -- and is wantonly predicated on them -- he's trying to foreclose any discussion of it because it's obvious his claim couldn't survive. But even if we stipulate that Mormon truth claims are true, his argument still fails. It's impossible to square his theory with his Mormon faith.

Where does that leave Billy? In not nearly as strong a position as he imagines. His ploy to allege that his critics are pseudo-skeptics hinged on "rais[ing] someone from the dead," or rather, providing extraordinary, incontrovertible evidence that his critics then ignore. By skeptical standards, he has no such evidence. He admits as much. But by Mormon religious standards he has no evidence either. He can't claim TOBS is part of Mormonism. Having no valid evidence even by his own standards means he's a long, long way from raising the dead and a lot closer to rejecting well-founded skepticism for some other reason.

Last edited by JayUtah; 11th September 2022 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 02:45 PM   #1364
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I'd like to invite everyone to read my blog, with new posts today:

https://tobs-bodysignals.tumblr.com/

VOMITING / NAUSEA / RETCHING

Did you ever wonder why drunkenness induces vomiting? Could it be that the happiness and loss of inhibitions trigger this body signal? To understand why, you need to understand first what the “spiritual death” is.

There are certain sins that, when committed, have a punishment of spiritual death, such as sex sin, murder, etc. Spiritual death means you “die” as to being spiritual and being happy, being cast out of God’s presence. Thanks to the Atonement, most sins can be repented of and forgiven upon condition of obedience.

When a person who has committed sins “worthy of death” refuses to repent, he or she is exposed to the whole law of Justice. One of the body signals is nausea, which kicks in when such a person tries to be spiritual yet doesn’t repent.

So, I dunno if drunken vomiting is due to spiritual death being enforced or not; yet I think it very well could be.

In any case, repentance is the smart thing to do.

TOBS May Cure…
Acne, Itches, eczema, aches, pains, the common cold, arthritis, gas pains, indigestion, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, allergies, backaches, earaches, tinnitus, eyes that won’t shut, hemorrhoids, shortness of breath/asthma, restless leg syndrome, cankersores, acid reflux, etc.

Simply understanding the principles behind TOBS and applying them can literally change the world.

Last edited by Billy Baxter; 21st September 2022 at 02:56 PM. Reason: grammar correction
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:01 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I'd like to invite everyone to read my blog...
It seems you have no interest in our forum except to use it to drive traffic to your blog. I'd like to invite you to participate in the discussion of the claims you've already made. Otherwise I would submit that your contributions in this forum rise no higher than spam.

Quote:
There are certain sins...
Nobody here believes in the concept of "sin." Your theory relies heavily on theological premises which no one here subscribes to, regardless of how fervently you believe them yourself. Further, you have decided unilaterally that those premises cannot be questioned, thus precluding the purpose of this forum. You're simply in the wrong place to preach your gospel.

Quote:
Simply understanding the principles behind TOBS and applying them can literally change the world.
No. Your claims have no evidentiary basis in medicine, psychology, or physiology, and you are not qualified in any of the relevant sciences. The theological aspects of your claims are rejected by your religion, and you are expressly forbidden by Mormon leadership to say they are not. You have a crackpot pseudo-religious theory that you want to pretend derives from Mormonism, but which is, in fact, entirely your own invention.
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Old 21st September 2022, 03:56 PM   #1366
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Did you ever wonder why drunkenness induces vomiting? Could it be that the happiness and loss of inhibitions trigger this body signal?

No, it's because alcohol is a toxin that can irritate the stomach lining and the body naturally reacts to such toxins by vomiting.

Why do such things as viruses, bacteria, motion sickness, and ipecac also cause vomiting? Do they cause happiness or loss of inhibitions?
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:07 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No, it's because alcohol is a toxin that can irritate the stomach lining and the body naturally reacts to such toxins by vomiting.

Why do such things as viruses, bacteria, motion sickness, and ipecac also cause vomiting? Do they cause happiness or loss of inhibitions?
I said "could it be," not "it is so." Good points, though.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:39 PM   #1368
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I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:43 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I said "could it be," not "it is so."
Weasel words. You're either advocating your theory or you are not. If you are, defend it. If you aren't, why should anyone care about it?
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:45 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
No.

Your theory is not such a game-changer that there is a conspiracy to suppress it. You're spamming this forum inappropriately with a theory that is neither medicine nor Mormonism, and you refuse to engage in a serious discussion about it on any grounds. Explain why your contributions shouldn't be disregarded as spam.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:55 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No.

Your theory is not such a game-changer that there is a conspiracy to suppress it. You're spamming this forum inappropriately with a theory that is neither medicine nor Mormonism, and you refuse to engage in a serious discussion about it on any grounds. Explain why your contributions shouldn't be disregarded as spam.
No. I converse with those who respect me, and you are not one of those people.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:58 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
No. I converse with those who respect me, and you are not one of those people.
No, you are not being treated disrespectfully or harshly. You have presented your theory, and it has been challenged on its purported merits. You haven't engaged with anyone. Please explain why you keep seeking a particular kind of attention on this forum which you should know by now you will not get.
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:46 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No, it's because alcohol is a toxin that can irritate the stomach lining and the body naturally reacts to such toxins by vomiting
It's not god's way of making room for more alcohol? I've been living a lie.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:22 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
Having the evidence of your heresy erased from message boards may help protect your status within the church. But nobody is terribly scared of the theory. Mildly amused at the medieval ways of thinking is more like it.

The black plague that swept through Europe wasn't a pissed off god, it was a disease spread by rats, fleas and ultimately, people.
It was stopped in England by a fire, a simple if deviststating fire that cleaned up the habitat the rats thrived in.
Not by prayer or following the instructions in the holy books.

Why are you out to erase basic medical knowledge and replace it with religious drivel?
You haven't even offered a god we can verify yet it's the only base point of your theory.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:21 PM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared embarrassed for some reason.
Fixed to provide a more plausible explanation, in the unlikely event that it is true.

It's very obvious that TOBS exists entirely in your head. I can understand why those who know you would prefer you don't embarrass yourself by sharing it publicly. I can also understand why your religious superiors object to it, as your linking of it to your religion might make readers wonder how much of that is also entirely in its believers heads, and realise that the answer is almost all of it.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 03:54 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
No. I converse with those who respect me, and you are not one of those people.
Repeatedly demonstrating wilful ignorance of anatomy, physiology, biochemistry and all the other scientific under-pinnings of medicine, then doing a lot of hand waving, claiming "spiritual" without any definition that I've seen of said word, and trying to avoid any discussion by basing everything on your "faith" and refusing to engage on the basis of folk criticising your "faith" is hardly likely to gain any respect, is it?

Respect is not automatic, it needs to be earned.

Reading a few basic medical text books or a copy of Gray's might be a good starting point.

I'm not holding my breath though.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 11:00 AM   #1377
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The wording of the blog he keeps directing us to is probably acceptable enough to insulate him, for now, from Mormon leadership sanctions. Billy states early on that what he has written is not official church doctrine. That's generally all you need to say for them to leave you alone. While TOBS is decidedly "out there," lots of ordinary Mormons write, speak, and publish on less peripheral or speculative topics. As long as they expressly disclaim that it's not church doctrine, and avoid claiming the church endorses what they say, they don't face any discipline (or even rude glances).

In contrast, claims he has made in this forum might earn him a rebuke from his local leader, but he's almost certainly not in serious danger of apostasy. Specifically, urging others to pray in the Mormon fashion, specifically to learn for themselves whether TOBS is a divinely ordained theory or doctrine, would probably cross the line into advocating something as doctrine, and thereby committing the infraction of "preaching false doctrine."

That said, we have nothing but Billy's word that there exist people who are trying to suppress his internet postings, and -- if such people exist -- why they may want to do it. But it seems like every fringe claimant wants to believe they are being opposed and suppressed. Thus every challenge any part of their claim can be only for nefarious purposes and never for anything like its factual or logical insufficiency, and that sanctions against them must always again be for nefarious purposes and never for anything like rude behavior.

As much as he wants to dismiss all criticism of his theory as "Mormon-bashing," that's a straw man. We don't even have to address Mormon religious truth claims to show that his theory fails. His line of reasoning in favor of it is exegetical, not scientific or logical. Therefore we don't have to consider the premises from which he starts his exegesis. Even if we take them as true, the processes of exegesis he's engaged in is disallowed by the religion in which he attempts to embed it. It's not the least disrespectful to him or to Mormonism to point out that what he's doing isn't allowed in Mormonism, and what he's proposing cannot be considered part of Mormonism.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 02:52 PM   #1378
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 03:38 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I'd like to invite everyone to read my blog, with new posts today:..
Thank you for your kind invitation. However, I won't be taking it up because your 'theory' is insane, and requires acceptance of a superstition I do not share with you.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
VOMITING / NAUSEA / RETCHING

Did you ever wonder why drunkenness induces vomiting?...
No. This is a well known way that the human body attempts to deal with the ingestion of toxic substances (or rather, substances it identifies as toxic. I have a similar reaction to shallots).

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
...Could it be that the happiness and loss of inhibitions trigger this body signal?...
I suppose it could be, but I'd need to see some kind of evidence before I decided.

I jest, obviously. Biily's 'theory' is utterly *******, even in the context of the drooling craziness of mainstream Mormonism.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
To understand why, you need to understand first what the “spiritual death” is...

(Religious claptrap snipped for brevity)

...So, I dunno if drunken vomiting is due to spiritual death being enforced1 or not; yet I think it very well could be2.

In any case, repentance is the smart thing to do.3
1It's not. Try talking to a doctor.
2No. Again, try talking to a doctor.
3I am ashamed to say that there have been occasions when I have been prostrate before the porcelain throne, and have whole-heartedly repented the actions that lead to that situation, and sworn to never do them again.

Didn't help in the least. Only time, hydration, and bacon can cure those ills.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
...TOBS May Cure…
Acne, Itches, eczema, aches, pains, the common cold, arthritis, gas pains, indigestion, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, allergies, backaches, earaches, tinnitus, eyes that won’t shut, hemorrhoids, shortness of breath/asthma, restless leg syndrome, cankersores, acid reflux, etc.

Simply understanding the principles behind TOBS and applying them can literally change the world.
Utter ******* diamond-encrusted ********. Please take your sky-daddy powered snake oil woo-woo, and shove it where the sun don't shine.

As ever, I'm out for this go-around. Until next time, Billy, TTFN.

ETA: WTF? "eyes that won’t shut"? TOBS can fix knackered old Tiny Tears dolls too?
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:17 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
... Could it be that the happiness... trigger[s] this body signal? To understand why, you need to understand first what the “spiritual death” is...
Your happiness makes God sad. If you experience happiness then your spirit dies. You exist only to make God happy.

Know your place, mortal scum. Suffer for your God's pleasure.


yes, I know I said I was done until Billy's next reboot, but I managed to miss this gem.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 06:26 PM   #1381
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Your happiness makes God sad. If you experience happiness then your spirit dies. You exist only to make God happy.

Know your place, mortal scum. Suffer for your God's pleasure.


yes, I know I said I was done until Billy's next reboot, but I managed to miss this gem.
straw man
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Old 22nd September 2022, 06:47 PM   #1382
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I've received death threats to both myself and my family if I don't take down my web blog, so try to contain your disappointment.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 07:40 PM   #1383
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've received death threats to both myself and my family if I don't take down my web blog, so try to contain your disappointment.
I don't believe you.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 07:41 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
straw man
Yes, it is -- intentionally so. It's called sarcasm. But you ignored all the other responses that were not straw men or sarcastic.

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Old 22nd September 2022, 09:23 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've received death threats to both myself and my family if I don't take down my web blog, so try to contain your disappointment.
From whom? Making exactly what objections to it?

What did the police say when you reported them?

Why would anyone here be disappointed, rather than concerned, to learn that you really had received death threats? We may laugh at your mad ideas, but we certainly don't wish you any harm.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 11:04 PM   #1386
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Yeah Billy, Tobs isn't exactly the most important hill to die on.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:10 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
From whom? Making exactly what objections to it?

What did the police say when you reported them?

Why would anyone here be disappointed, rather than concerned, to learn that you really had received death threats? We may laugh at your mad ideas, but we certainly don't wish you any harm.
It's a group of fundie Christians to whom I taught TOBS. They have some deep-rooted problems with it, but they won't tell me specifics--they just don't like what it implies about God, I guess. I haven't reported them, but I erased the blog.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 02:40 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
It's a group of fundie Christians to whom I taught TOBS. They have some deep-rooted problems with it, but they won't tell me specifics--they just don't like what it implies about God, I guess. I haven't reported them, but I erased the blog.
So you didn't report a death threat and you erased the blog containing the evidence of the threat? Have I got the facts right? Is there any objective, testable evidence of the threats you claim were made against you?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:05 PM   #1389
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Oh, FSM save us from the self-righteous platitudes. I don't normally chime in on these threads but have no idea what you hope to accomplish with this.

Anything that requires belief in a diety for it to work, doesn't.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:56 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
Don't be silly.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 03:57 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've received death threats to both myself and my family if I don't take down my web blog, so try to contain your disappointment.
Bollocks.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:07 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I've heard a rumor that some of the people who know me and my theory are planning to payoff the message boards I've posted it on to erase my threads. It's got them terribly scared for some reason.
No one takes your ideas seriously enough to do that.
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Old 24th September 2022, 02:14 AM   #1393
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And you have a girlfriend, but we wouldn't know her, 'cos she goes to another school in Canada...
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Old 24th September 2022, 02:32 AM   #1394
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I don't actually find it particularly hard to believe that fundie Christians are threatening him. They tend to be as irrational as Mormons and take offence at the slightest thing, even something as entirely imaginary as TOBS.
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Old 24th September 2022, 03:39 AM   #1395
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No one takes your ideas seriously enough to do that.
Damn, I was banking on a nice little bonus!
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:18 PM   #1396
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I don't know if the fundies are aware of this forum, so I'll continue here.

INHIBITED SWALLOW REFLEX

This body signal is a key to the enforcement of God's judgments. Simply put, you can't swallow unless you accept and conform to your judgment OR you repent of your sins. This is a hard pill to, well, swallow.

INHIBITED EYELID CLOSURE / IRRITABLE EYES

These signals have to do with "seeing" or understanding Justice and Mercy as they apply to you. You will continue to have these until you "see" Justice and Mercy OR you repent.

So many of the body signals are contingent on repentance.
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:24 PM   #1397
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And your objective evidence for these claims is ..... ?
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:30 PM   #1398
Billy Baxter
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
And your objective evidence for these claims is ..... ?
... experiential.
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:37 PM   #1399
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Experience is not objective.
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Disavow any knowledge of my twitter here.
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Old 24th September 2022, 07:45 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by gerdbonk View Post
Experience is not objective.
True.
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