IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , medical issues

Reply
Old 16th March 2022, 12:51 PM   #41
xjx388
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,213
Epidemic is when a new disease (or one that is not endemic to an area) spreads in a certain small area.

Pandemic is when the new disease spreads over a larger area.

Endemic is when a disease is widespread in or native to an area and spreads at predictable rates.

I think COVID is still considered a pandemic because it hasn’t stabilized into predictable patterns. New variants keep popping up and we haven’t reached a sufficient level of immunity in the population. But it will be endemic at some point, which, to my mind, doesn’t really change anything about how we should deal with it.

The more germane question is: At what point do we stop treating COVID as a public health emergency that requires government intervention? That’s a political question and will vary by jurisdiction.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:02 PM   #42
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Solid, informative posts, as usual, Skeptic Ginger. They reinforce my own opinion, that it isn't quite time to ease off (personal) protocols. Soon, hopefully. But we're not there yet.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:05 PM   #43
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yet again, the point is made that neither variety of omicron is causing the levels of harm as previous infections:



https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/15/h...-us/index.html

This reflects exactly what doctors in South Africa said - a lower percentage in hospital, and those who did end up there needed a day or two on a CPAP machine and went home, with minimal impact on ICUs.

I think the end of the pandemic is nigh.

Amen to that, to the end being "nigh".

Not quite there yet, though? Soon, hopefully.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:31 PM   #44
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,256
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Amen to that, to the end being "nigh".

Not quite there yet, though? Soon, hopefully.
Very, I think. The current BA2 wave will subside as quickly as it began and the fat lady will be signing.

I can see the pandemic being over for all practical purposes by the end of April, and officially by WHO statement some time in June. China's the only place that might continue to have issues, which is ironically appropriate.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:35 PM   #45
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, how did you know a pandemic's started?

There were clear-cut announcements, back then, from WHO for one. And instructions/guidelines, initially somewhat conflicting, on what to do and what not.

I personally look at government mandates as the legal requirement everyone MUST follow, the bare minimum as it were, because those measures are often decided by weighing other concerns, including the economic and the political. If one has the wherewithal, then it's wise, IMV at least, to treat that as the floor. Actual observance per more conservative (that is, more careful) health authority guidelines, including from WHO.

Like Puppycow suggested upthread, they rang it in, so no doubt they'll ring it out, at some point, WHO I mean to say. Meanwhile, though? Disturbingly large numbers of people are pre-empting the end of the pandemic, and letting it all hang out, at least other than when in public in large numbers. Disturbingly large numbers are starting to take it easy, as far as masks and distancing, inside offices and (others') homes and restaurants and private parties and gatherings. Disturbing, because the numbers are large enough that one questions if one is right -- as opposed to getting unduly paranoid -- in not following their lead, and in waiting, instead, for more definitive easing-off instructions/guidance from health authorities, including at the global level from WHO.

(I meant that last literally, not rhetorically. That "question" is what this thread is.)
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:36 PM   #46
xjx388
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,213
I think April-June is way too optimistic to call the pandemic “over.” I think it will stretch on, especially in certain pockets of the world, until next year.

And even if the pandemic is “over,” what does that mean? It means that COVID moves to endemic status. Yay? We screwed the pooch on eliminating it or controlling it. So I’m not sure that “the pandemic is over,” really means much in a “we don’t have to worry anymore,” sense.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:47 PM   #47
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Epidemic is when a new disease (or one that is not endemic to an area) spreads in a certain small area.

Pandemic is when the new disease spreads over a larger area.

Endemic is when a disease is widespread in or native to an area and spreads at predictable rates.

I think COVID is still considered a pandemic because it hasn’t stabilized into predictable patterns. New variants keep popping up and we haven’t reached a sufficient level of immunity in the population. But it will be endemic at some point, which, to my mind, doesn’t really change anything about how we should deal with it.

Agreed, fully.

That said, I was wondering if there might be protocol-driven basis for that opinion. While I agree, fully, and am happy to hear you voice that sane opinion, I'm wondering if we might base that opinion on something more structured than merely what appeals to us personally.


Quote:
The more germane question is: At what point do we stop treating COVID as a public health emergency that requires government intervention? That’s a political question and will vary by jurisdiction.

Oh sure, but it's "more" important only if you take the earlier question, about the appropriate personal level of precaution, as already answered. While personally in full agreement with your answer, that is the question I wanted to focus on here, in this thread.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 03:56 PM   #48
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Very, I think. The current BA2 wave will subside as quickly as it began and the fat lady will be signing.

I can see the pandemic being over for all practical purposes by the end of April, and officially by WHO statement some time in June. China's the only place that might continue to have issues, which is ironically appropriate.

Let's hope you're right. It would be wonderful if that's how it actually happens.


China? I find that worrying. Given the far lower efficacy with Omicron, which lessens the effective difference between their Sino-whatsisname-vaccine and more mainstream vaccines, surely what's happening there may well happen elsewhere? One hopes it won't, naturally. But I'm not sure I see any reason to be sure it won't.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 04:24 PM   #49
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,449
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Let's hope you're right. It would be wonderful if that's how it actually happens.


China? I find that worrying. Given the far lower efficacy with Omicron, which lessens the effective difference between their Sino-whatsisname-vaccine and more mainstream vaccines, surely what's happening there may well happen elsewhere? One hopes it won't, naturally. But I'm not sure I see any reason to be sure it won't.
It's just Sinovac, a portmanteau of Sino for China, and vac for vaccine.

Unrelated, but I remember last summer when I got vaccinated and they gave me the certificate which said "Comirnaty" and I didn't know what that meant because I only ever heard it referred to as "the Pfizer vaccine" (or sometimes Pfizer/BioNTech). "Comirnaty" is the actual name of the vaccine, and it's a portmanteau of community and mRNA. Yes, mRNA is in the name if you look carefully.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 04:27 PM   #50
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,453
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think April-June is way too optimistic to call the pandemic “over.” I think it will stretch on, especially in certain pockets of the world, until next year.

And even if the pandemic is “over,” what does that mean? It means that COVID moves to endemic status. Yay? We screwed the pooch on eliminating it or controlling it. So I’m not sure that “the pandemic is over,” really means much in a “we don’t have to worry anymore,” sense.
Watching what is happening in China right now, I don't think there were actions that could have stopped the pandemic by Dec 2019. China might have been able to nip it in the bud in Nov-Dec 2019, but that would have required perfect action and it's doubtful any country would have been perfect in predicting the significance in those first couple months.

And it's an issue in 'pockets' in the US as well as in other parts of the world.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 04:40 PM   #51
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,453
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
...
China? I find that worrying. Given the far lower efficacy with Omicron, which lessens the effective difference between their Sino-whatsisname-vaccine and more mainstream vaccines, surely what's happening there may well happen elsewhere? One hopes it won't, naturally. But I'm not sure I see any reason to be sure it won't.
Might be more than vaccine failure.

ChinaDaily on vaccine uptake in Hong Kong
Quote:
Hong Kong's vaccination rate is lower than that in the mainland, Singapore, Europe, and the United States, Lam said at a press conference.

She said Hong Kong's COVID-19 vaccine supply is ample and the HKSAR boasts a developed vaccination infrastructure, stressing efforts to urge more people to participate.

According to official data, 300,000 people aged 70 or older have not received their first dose of vaccine.
The vaccine uptake has increased dramatically now, but a couple of months ago it was relatively low.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 04:45 PM   #52
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,449
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yet again, the point is made that neither variety of omicron is causing the levels of harm as previous infections:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/15/h...-us/index.html

This reflects exactly what doctors in South Africa said - a lower percentage in hospital, and those who did end up there needed a day or two on a CPAP machine and went home, with minimal impact on ICUs.

I think the end of the pandemic is nigh.
Just to pick out one sentence that caught my attention:
Quote:
In previous waves, increases in Covid hospitalizations lagged behind jumps in cases by about 10 days to two weeks. Now, in the UK, cases and hospitalizations seem to be rising in tandem, something that has experts stumped.
When there's a consistent lag, it suggests a cause and effect relationship, but if they are rising in tandem it could just be that lots of new cases are being detected in people arriving at the hospital for other reasons.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2022, 04:51 PM   #53
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,256
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think April-June is way too optimistic to call the pandemic “over.” I think it will stretch on, especially in certain pockets of the world, until next year.

And even if the pandemic is “over,” what does that mean? It means that COVID moves to endemic status. Yay? We screwed the pooch on eliminating it or controlling it. So I’m not sure that “the pandemic is over,” really means much in a “we don’t have to worry anymore,” sense.
Fair points - and I don't mean that by the pandemic being over it will have gone away.

I think covid will be with us forever, but it's going to be like norovirus, colds, RSV and other diseases that harvest age-care homes every year and little else, although vaccines for it will likely be a part of life from now on.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2022, 08:17 AM   #54
8enotto
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 2,568
Vaccine campaigns in Mexico are very targeted and infrequent now. Not for a shortage of available vaccine. Outlaid areas ignored in early phases and age groups denied in heavier populated areas.

A mop up operation if you will, and I suspect a direct reflection of how those in charge see the pandemic evolving.

So, without stating directly how they feel actions do speak.
Maybe that is how we need to read the intentions of other nations. Everything is subject to change but it's a clue.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2022, 11:57 AM   #55
attempt5001
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 748
There have been some posts here about the effectiveness of vaccination for reducing transmission, hospitalization, and ICU admission. Ontario, Canada have tracked this data very nicely. This link shows the relative rates between vaccinated (at least two doses) and unvaccinated populations.
https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-c...cine-Doses.png
attempt5001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2022, 04:18 PM   #56
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
Well I realized today that after two years, it feels weird to walk around my building with no mask on. Every time I run into a fellow resident, I feel a twinge of guilt "oh, I'm not wearing a mask!" Which gives me two new ways to determine when the pandemic is over:

One, I could go back to wearing a mask. I'll know the pandemic is over when I start feeling guilty for being the only one wearing a mask.

Two, I'll know the pandemic is over when I stop feeling guilty for not wearing a mask.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2022, 04:23 PM   #57
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
Masks are still required here. As they should be, because we have more virus in the place than ever before. It's just that masks alone aren't going to cut it and people need to start understanding about clean air.

I will not unmask indoors in company until something is done about this.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 06:26 AM   #58
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well I realized today that after two years, it feels weird to walk around my building with no mask on. Every time I run into a fellow resident, I feel a twinge of guilt "oh, I'm not wearing a mask!" Which gives me two new ways to determine when the pandemic is over:

One, I could go back to wearing a mask. I'll know the pandemic is over when I start feeling guilty for being the only one wearing a mask.

Two, I'll know the pandemic is over when I stop feeling guilty for not wearing a mask.

I don't know if that's supposed to be a completely-free-of-substance joke. If it is, then fine, even though I don't quite get the funny part of it, but I appreciate your weighing in with some friendly humor. But if there's even the smallest smidgen of your actual POV, and of how you're actually viewing this question, in that flippantly worded comment, then I have to say I'm very surprised to find that argument presented in here of all places, and by you of all people. That's, like, as blatant an argumentum ad populum as you might find anywhere, and what's more applied to what is a very serious question, or should be. It's essentially saying that whatever the folks around me are doing is right, and what I must do is try to mimic them as best I can. That's, like, I don't know, entirely unexpected, coming from you. (Like I said, apologies if I'm running away with over-thinking a comment that was intended as no more than just a joke, and that does not touch on your actual POV at all.)

Sure, I can understand tailoring your reaction, to an extent, maybe even to a large extent, to local conditions as opposed to some global norm; but even if you're aiming to do that, even then trying to mirror what everyone around you is doing is hardly the best way of getting there, is it?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 06:33 AM   #59
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Masks are still required here. As they should be, because we have more virus in the place than ever before. It's just that masks alone aren't going to cut it and people need to start understanding about clean air.

I will not unmask indoors in company until something is done about this.

Do you mean clean air generally, and not necessarily linked with this Covid business? I agree, that's not a bad idea at all; but still, I guess that's kind of a separate issue.

Masking indoors is getting to be kind of troublesome these days. Socially I mean. An incident just yesterday ...on second thoughts, no need for personal details, but what I'm saying is, it's a bit like what it must have been like banishing smokers from your home in times past, when smoking, and specifically passive smoking, wasn't fully recognized as the health hazard we all now understand it is. I'm pretty thick skinned myself, and do what I feel is right without worrying overly much about how others take it; but when you see practically everyone around you letting it all hang, figuratively speaking, you start questioning whether it's they who're being weird, or whether it's you that needs a reality check. (By "you" I mean "me"!)
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 06:48 AM   #60
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Anyway, while all of this is useful, as inputs as far as how people are individually dealing with this at this time, but it isn't quite what I was asking.

I spent a while searching online for some official position from WHO on this, both about the protocol in general terms of easing off of pandemics, as well as about what they advise at this point in time, and, while I found nothing generally applicable, I did come up with this. WHO's position, as of last week, seems to be that "...there are huge amounts of misinformation causing a lot of confusion among people...The misinformation that Omicron is mild, misinformation that the pandemic is over, misinformation that this is the last variant that we will have to deal with”..."

On the other hand, this was a comment that I needed to search for, and it was delivered by someone in WHO I've never heard of. Not that I'm some expert on who's who in WHO --- sounds weirdly punny, that, but I'm not going to go back and rephrase that! --- but my point is, it isn't the big guns at WHO proclaiming this as important headlines, but merely some functionary mumbling out something, something that does not leap out at one but something that one needs to actively search for in order to access. So that I wonder how much WHO itself is pushing this line of thought and action.

And in any case, I still haven't found whether they --- or respective national bodies --- go out and ring out the pandemic officially, in real time as it were. I guess I'm going to assume there is no such protocol, or at least none that those who might have devised them are taking very seriously, so that it is, indeed, a question of doing what appears best to you, individually, basis your local conditions. Which is not a bad idea, but yeah, that leaves it kind of an open question.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 07:11 AM   #61
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Do you mean clean air generally, and not necessarily linked with this Covid business? I agree, that's not a bad idea at all; but still, I guess that's kind of a separate issue.

Masking indoors is getting to be kind of troublesome these days. Socially I mean. An incident just yesterday ...on second thoughts, no need for personal details, but what I'm saying is, it's a bit like what it must have been like banishing smokers from your home in times past, when smoking, and specifically passive smoking, wasn't fully recognized as the health hazard we all now understand it is. I'm pretty thick skinned myself, and do what I feel is right without worrying overly much about how others take it; but when you see practically everyone around you letting it all hang, figuratively speaking, you start questioning whether it's they who're being weird, or whether it's you that needs a reality check. (By "you" I mean "me"!)

I mean air which is free of airborne pathogens, either by employing sufficient ventilation or by filtration. Both are possible and both work.

You are not being weird. This thing is now believed to cause brain damage equivalent to about 10 years aging in about 35% of people who catch it, even mild doses/ Long covid and other long-term health effects are also possible. And vaccine immunity is waning. I'm happy enough that we still have compulsory masks, as it means that my FFP3 doesn't stand out. But I'd be wearing it anyway. I like my body the way it is.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 07:22 AM   #62
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I mean air which is free of airborne pathogens, either by employing sufficient ventilation or by filtration. Both are possible and both work.

You are not being weird. This thing is now believed to cause brain damage equivalent to about 10 years aging in about 35% of people who catch it, even mild doses/ Long covid and other long-term health effects are also possible. And vaccine immunity is waning. I'm happy enough that we still have compulsory masks, as it means that my FFP3 doesn't stand out. But I'd be wearing it anyway. I like my body the way it is.

Thank you! That is, while that still doesn't address what I started this thread asking, but that so unequivocally supports what appears right to me, and that seems increasingly getting to be the minority view, that it feels good to have someone who knows what they're talking about support one's POV!

That long COVID thing, I didn't know it was that pronounced. In terms of numbers I mean. 35% is ... way more than I'd imagined it was. Any idea if we know whether this applies to the oh-so-mild-and-benignant Omicron as well, this long-term thing?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 07:36 AM   #63
905
Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: the wilderness south of London
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by crackers View Post
I am immunocompromised, so I am quite happy to continue wearing a mask until I am the only person I see wearing one.
I'm also immunocompromised and don't see dropping my N95 anytime soon, especially as my government (UK) is throwing us under the bus.
905 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 07:48 AM   #64
xjx388
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,213
The problem is, I don’t think anyone can sufficiently answer your question. I don’t believe there is a protocol or algorithm for determining exactly when a pandemic starts or ends. The way I understand it, it’s more of a subjective “committee of experts” kind of decision at the WHO, UN, etc, rather than a strictly objective scientific process. I think I remember reading somewhere that some committee at some international alphabet agency reviews the situation every three months.

But as I said before, I think it’s far more impactful at the local level. The “pandemic” ends for you when national, provincial/state and local governments ease restrictions and declare the Emergency is over. Even more locally, it actually ends for you when you decide you feel safe enough to stop taking your own precautions. Which means, for me in South Texas, the pandemic ended sometime last year, lol.

I think that’s the best answer you can get.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 08:25 AM   #65
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I don't know if that's supposed to be a completely-free-of-substance joke. If it is, then fine, even though I don't quite get the funny part of it, but I appreciate your weighing in with some friendly humor. But if there's even the smallest smidgen of your actual POV, and of how you're actually viewing this question, in that flippantly worded comment, then I have to say I'm very surprised to find that argument presented in here of all places, and by you of all people. That's, like, as blatant an argumentum ad populum as you might find anywhere, and what's more applied to what is a very serious question, or should be. It's essentially saying that whatever the folks around me are doing is right, and what I must do is try to mimic them as best I can. That's, like, I don't know, entirely unexpected, coming from you. (Like I said, apologies if I'm running away with over-thinking a comment that was intended as no more than just a joke, and that does not touch on your actual POV at all.)

Sure, I can understand tailoring your reaction, to an extent, maybe even to a large extent, to local conditions as opposed to some global norm; but even if you're aiming to do that, even then trying to mirror what everyone around you is doing is hardly the best way of getting there, is it?
Well.

You started this thread in Social Issues and Current Events, not Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology. So I don't see your question as being primarily a scientific or medical question. Besides, several others have weighed in on the scientific and medical aspects already.

I gave a social answer, based on current events in my area. I gather it's different in different places. In Oregon, the pandemic has been relatively mild, as have the restrictions. We never went into total lockdown. Outdoor dining was established mid-2020. Indoor dining was reinstated several months ago. There never was an outdoor mask requirement, and the indoor mask requirement was lifted on March 14th.

The main reason I still feel guilty not wearing a mask in my building is because I've been wearing a mask in my building for two years, and it hasn't even been two weeks since that requirement was removed. I still see lots of masks, out and about. Some people wear them on the street, even though it's not required. Lots of retail and restaurant workers are still wearing them, understandably.

My employer opened their campus to voluntary work-from-the-office, requiring a mask indoors in compliance with the government mandate. In May, they will reinstate the office hours expectations for all employees - masks optional. It will be interesting to see how many of my co-workers will choose to continue wearing masks indoors, and if and how that custom fades over time.

I'm sure the CDC will tell us when the pandemic has crossed the technical threshold to some other category. And anyone can look up dictionary definitions of words and speculate which one best fits the current circumstances. But from a social perspective, "mask culture" (for lack of a better term) seems to me a good benchmark of how people are feeling about the problem and their relationship to it.

At my neighborhood bar, everyone dropped the masks as soon as the mandate was lifted. Nobody wanted to keep wearing a mask, not even the bartenders. Half the staff caught Omicron in late December, anyway. Everyone's vaccinated. Everyone is looking forward to a mask-free spring and summer. There's a general sense of relief, that this thing is finally starting to fade, and Back to Normal is underway.

If "pandemic" means lockdowns and quarantines and social distancing and masks and proofs of vaccination and living a half-life, then in that tiny corner of the world, the pandemic is almost over. The rest of the city isn't far behind. We'll see this summer whether voluntary mask-wearers are outliers, or the norm.

The CDC can tell you, scientifically, when the pandemic is "over". But when will you actually feel like it's over? When the CDC tells you? When certain restrictions are lifted? When you see the weekly infection and hospitalization numbers drop below a certain point? Or will you wake up one fine morning this summer, and realize that a weight has been lifted, and you're just not as anxious as you used to be? You'll be out and about, living your life, and the thought will occur to you, "hey, I can't remember the last time I saw someone in a mask". And that's when it hits you: the long dark teatime of your soul has finally come to an end.

I can't say that's how it's going to be for you. I can't even say it'll be this year. I hope it is this year. But only you will know when your heart says the pandemic is over for you. For some people, even if the CDC says it's over, it still won't be over for them. For some people, it will never be over. Who am I to tell them it's over? Who are they to tell me it isn't?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 08:34 AM   #66
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The problem is, I don’t think anyone can sufficiently answer your question. I don’t believe there is a protocol or algorithm for determining exactly when a pandemic starts or ends. The way I understand it, it’s more of a subjective “committee of experts” kind of decision at the WHO, UN, etc, rather than a strictly objective scientific process. I think I remember reading somewhere that some committee at some international alphabet agency reviews the situation every three months.

But as I said before, I think it’s far more impactful at the local level. The “pandemic” ends for you when national, provincial/state and local governments ease restrictions and declare the Emergency is over. Even more locally, it actually ends for you when you decide you feel safe enough to stop taking your own precautions. Which means, for me in South Texas, the pandemic ended sometime last year, lol.

I think that’s the best answer you can get.

Fair enough. If that's the answer, then that's the answer. Not just the best answer that one must somehow make do with, but the right answer --- if indeed there's no set protocol per se, as it appears there isn't. That's exactly what I was trying to find out. In fact, I think unless I find out that there is, I'm going to go with there isn't.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 08:52 AM   #67
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well.

You started this thread in Social Issues and Current Events, not Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Technology. So I don't see your question as being primarily a scientific or medical question. Besides, several others have weighed in on the scientific and medical aspects already.

Like I tried to clarify in the OP --- perhaps not very clearly! --- the scientific basis is what informs (or should inform) both personal policy and larger policy. That's a separate discussion, a very involved one, and there's one or two or more threads already for that. I was trying to get a feel of whether anyone makes it their business to clearly direct both personal and local collective policy, not merely in terms of imposing mandates and lifting mandates (which after all is something that's watered down some with both economic as well as political considerations) but in terms of what one is best advised to do if one is able to.


Quote:
I gave a social answer, based on current events in my area. I gather it's different in different places. In Oregon, the pandemic has been relatively mild, as have the restrictions. We never went into total lockdown. Outdoor dining was established mid-2020. Indoor dining was reinstated several months ago. There never was an outdoor mask requirement, and the indoor mask requirement was lifted on March 14th.

The main reason I still feel guilty not wearing a mask in my building is because I've been wearing a mask in my building for two years, and it hasn't even been two weeks since that requirement was removed. I still see lots of masks, out and about. Some people wear them on the street, even though it's not required. Lots of retail and restaurant workers are still wearing them, understandably.

My employer opened their campus to voluntary work-from-the-office, requiring a mask indoors in compliance with the government mandate. In May, they will reinstate the office hours expectations for all employees - masks optional. It will be interesting to see how many of my co-workers will choose to continue wearing masks indoors, and if and how that custom fades over time.

I'm sure the CDC will tell us when the pandemic has crossed the technical threshold to some other category. And anyone can look up dictionary definitions of words and speculate which one best fits the current circumstances. But from a social perspective, "mask culture" (for lack of a better term) seems to me a good benchmark of how people are feeling about the problem and their relationship to it.

At my neighborhood bar, everyone dropped the masks as soon as the mandate was lifted. Nobody wanted to keep wearing a mask, not even the bartenders. Half the staff caught Omicron in late December, anyway. Everyone's vaccinated. Everyone is looking forward to a mask-free spring and summer. There's a general sense of relief, that this thing is finally starting to fade, and Back to Normal is underway.

If "pandemic" means lockdowns and quarantines and social distancing and masks and proofs of vaccination and living a half-life, then in that tiny corner of the world, the pandemic is almost over. The rest of the city isn't far behind. We'll see this summer whether voluntary mask-wearers are outliers, or the norm.

The CDC can tell you, scientifically, when the pandemic is "over". But when will you actually feel like it's over? When the CDC tells you? When certain restrictions are lifted? When you see the weekly infection and hospitalization numbers drop below a certain point? Or will you wake up one fine morning this summer, and realize that a weight has been lifted, and you're just not as anxious as you used to be? You'll be out and about, living your life, and the thought will occur to you, "hey, I can't remember the last time I saw someone in a mask". And that's when it hits you: the long dark teatime of your soul has finally come to an end.

I can't say that's how it's going to be for you. I can't even say it'll be this year. I hope it is this year. But only you will know when your heart says the pandemic is over for you. For some people, even if the CDC says it's over, it still won't be over for them. For some people, it will never be over. Who am I to tell them it's over? Who are they to tell me it isn't?

I wasn't really asking about how to gauge how people are feeling about it. Nor a "feels" answer to what one should do, personally. (I mean, the pandemic's over for you when your heart tells you it's over for you, is very definitely not what I was going for! There's got to be some objective way to come to a reliable answer, as far as that.)

What I was going for is a clear answer to what, ideally, and objectively, an individual should be doing, unfettered from political and economic considerations. Is there such a clear answer at all, that some responsible organization (maybe WHO, maybe some other) makes it their business to provide to individuals? Not so much a ruling, but guidance; but reliable guidance? Not "We'll fine your ass if you don't wear masks", but clearly that "You're well advised to continue masking, even though we're leaving you free not to if you don't wish to", or "It's fine, let the mask go when in indoor settings with a small group even outside of your family, because it's no longer needed."

Is there a means of arriving at such a reliable guidance, was my question. Does WHO, or the local equivalent, make it their business to offer such guidance, not as some bureaucratic tying up of threads when it's all fully over but that one might rely on on a real-time basis? Or must one figure it out as best one can, oneself, whether via solid science, or "feels", or whatever else?

Basis this thread, it seems the latter. And that's fine. That is to say, I'd have preferred the former; but it is what it is, and if it's the latter, then that's the answer I was looking for.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 08:58 AM   #68
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
I don't think anyone is saying that 35% of people who catch this thing get clinical long covid. What they are saying is that 35% of people who caught it had measurable shrinkage of the brain thought to be equivalent to ten years of ageing. Nobody really knows how that will pan out clinically in the coming years but I'd rather not be one of those waiting to find out on a personal basis.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 09:11 AM   #69
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that 35% of people who catch this thing get clinical long covid. What they are saying is that 35% of people who caught it had measurable shrinkage of the brain thought to be equivalent to ten years of ageing. Nobody really knows how that will pan out clinically in the coming years but I'd rather not be one of those waiting to find out on a personal basis.

35% of people who get Covid end up with their brain aging 10 years more than they would otherwise, is pretty much dire! (That's fine, I'm not doubting you. I'm happy being very wary indeed of this beast!)

Any idea if that goes for Omicron as well, the 35%-people-have-their-brain-age-10-years thing, or don't we know that yet?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 09:18 AM   #70
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
I saw links to the research on twitter, being posted by reputable accounts. I think they were referring to omicron but I can't be sure.

I don't think any of this science is settled, but there is an extremely large-scale experiment going on at the moment whose outcome is not known. I do not wish to be a part of it.

I read somewhere, in a paper that was actually quite flaky so I don't put any store by it, that one of the effects of mild covid was to mess with risk perception. So people who have had a dose going around saying it's only a cold and we have to get on with life and so on. A lot of these people are in decision-making roles. Now this may be complete rubbish, but the way some people are going on (including at least one friend of mine) does kind of stop me dismissing it outright.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 09:37 AM   #71
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I saw links to the research on twitter, being posted by reputable accounts. I think they were referring to omicron but I can't be sure.

I don't think any of this science is settled, but there is an extremely large-scale experiment going on at the moment whose outcome is not known. I do not wish to be a part of it.

I read somewhere, in a paper that was actually quite flaky so I don't put any store by it, that one of the effects of mild covid was to mess with risk perception. So people who have had a dose going around saying it's only a cold and we have to get on with life and so on. A lot of these people are in decision-making roles. Now this may be complete rubbish, but the way some people are going on (including at least one friend of mine) does kind of stop me dismissing it outright.

****. Pardon my French, but that would agree with what I've seen, up close and personal, with someone (elderly) that's close to me. They were extremely careful and cautious about their health; then they got the Covid, and got it bad; and recovered, thank goodness; and are now ....wildly, crazily, and inexplicably cavalier about it all. They're retired, and what they do affects no one other than them and their family, but still it's very ...distrubing. What you're saying would explain that otherwise inexplicable change.

Of course, that's just one observation point, anecdotal, absolutely; and a very tentatively relayed theory. I'm not saying that's how it is, and nor, like you say, are you. But yeah, fascinating, and potentially very scary indeed, if any of this is actually the case.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 10:01 AM   #72
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,453
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Anyway, while all of this is useful, as inputs as far as how people are individually dealing with this at this time, but it isn't quite what I was asking.

... this was a comment that I needed to search for, and it was delivered by someone in WHO I've never heard of. Not that I'm some expert on who's who in WHO --- sounds weirdly punny, that, but I'm not going to go back and rephrase that! --- but my point is, it isn't the big guns at WHO proclaiming this as important headlines, but merely some functionary mumbling out something, something that does not leap out at one but something that one needs to actively search for in order to access. So that I wonder how much WHO itself is pushing this line of thought and action.

And in any case, I still haven't found whether they --- or respective national bodies --- go out and ring out the pandemic officially, in real time as it were. I guess I'm going to assume there is no such protocol, or at least none that those who might have devised them are taking very seriously, so that it is, indeed, a question of doing what appears best to you, individually, basis your local conditions. Which is not a bad idea, but yeah, that leaves it kind of an open question.
I couldn't find any other pandemics (short of a flu strain or 2) that have officially ended when the WHO was around. I also, like you, found no specific criteria on the WHO website describing the conditions needed to call the pandemic over.

I believe they announced the SARS 1 pandemic to be over after a specific amount of time with no new cases.

There are definitions of what will make it endemic vs pandemic but those are descriptions of endemic, not specific descriptions of a pandemic pathogen officially being declared endemic.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 24th March 2022 at 10:03 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2022, 10:43 AM   #73
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I couldn't find any other pandemics (short of a flu strain or 2) that have officially ended when the WHO was around. I also, like you, found no specific criteria on the WHO website describing the conditions needed to call the pandemic over.

I believe they announced the SARS 1 pandemic to be over after a specific amount of time with no new cases.

There are definitions of what will make it endemic vs pandemic but those are descriptions of endemic, not specific descriptions of a pandemic pathogen officially being declared endemic.

It is what it is, but I find this kind of ...well, surprising. I mean, if I were WHO, and in general, and most certainly if during my watch a nightmare of a pandemic ended up turning the whole world upside down for two whole years, surely one of the things I'd get down to doing --- if it hadn't been done already, in the past I mean --- is to clearly devise a disengagement protocol. Sure it wouldn't be laid in stone, sure I'd keep revising as the situation evolved, but, I mean, this seems beyond elementary, that I'd keep issuing clear guidelines about what exactly people ought to be doing, and when, and where. Specifics not generalities, and guidelines not mandates, guidelines that you wouldn't be charged for not following but that you would be well advised to. (As distinct from official legally enforceable policy, I mean, that's a function of a whole host of things, like politics, and the economy, et cetera.)

I was very sure there'd be such a protocol, such guidelines, only somehow I hadn't been looking at the right place. It seems now there isn't such a system in place at all. Well, it is what it is.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2022, 01:51 PM   #74
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,256
I posted this in the science thread yesterday.

Quote:
Since the start of omicron, we've [NZ] had an official 11% of the population infected, and I'm going to err way on the side of caution and say the true numbers are 20%, or 1M cases. (I believe it's more like 40%, using absence numbers at schools and workplaces)

Of that million infections, we've never had over 1000 in hospital, with numbers dropping right now, and maximum 40 in ICU. Deaths are listed at 192, but that is all deaths where covid has been present within 28 days of death. The number confirmed to be as a result of covid is a whopping 43.

It's now abundantly clear that post-vaccination omicron is a very minor issue. The people dying have almost exclusively been very frail people, or as my Aussie mate says, people whose toe tags had already been printed. 'Flu deaths here are ~500 a year, and omicron's going to be much lower than that.

Barring a new variant of concern, the pandemic is done and dusted.
I see nothing about long covid to dissuade me from that view, and omicron has shown that nothing will stop it, so the best plan is to ignore it. Masks are fine, but merely delay the inevitable. The evidence of harm among the vaccinated is sketchy and shows no major harm being done to more than a tiny fraction of people, if even that.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2022, 01:55 PM   #75
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,256
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
It is what it is, but I find this kind of ...well, surprising. I mean, if I were WHO, and in general, and most certainly if during my watch a nightmare of a pandemic ended up turning the whole world upside down for two whole years, surely one of the things I'd get down to doing --- if it hadn't been done already, in the past I mean --- is to clearly devise a disengagement protocol.
The WHO have a vested interest in keeping it as a pandemic.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2022, 09:54 PM   #76
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16,773
And The Atheist had a vested interest in pretending that it was over. It wasn't over then, and in New Zealand it had only just begun:
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people
Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths

And why bother about a pandemic when you think that the people who die were meant to die anyway?

Quote:
It's now abundantly clear that post-vaccination omicron is a very minor issue. The people dying have almost exclusively been very frail people, or as my Aussie mate says, people whose toe tags had already been printed. 'Flu deaths here are ~500 a year, and omicron's going to be much lower than that.

Barring a new variant of concern, the pandemic is done and dusted.

Omicron was going to be much lower than that?! Much lower than 500?! And that's what The Atheist posted in the science subforum? I hope he has corrected his prediction in the meantime because the current death toll in NZ is 1,404!
There are still six months left of 2022 and winter is coming! (No, winter has already arrived, actually.)

So much for the fairy tale about Omicron being the mild variant. It was just so "abundantly clear", wasn't it?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2022, 11:57 PM   #77
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16,773
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I posted this in the science thread yesterday.

Quote:
Since the start of omicron, we've [NZ] had an official 11% of the population infected, and I'm going to err way on the side of caution and say the true numbers are 20%, or 1M cases. (I believe it's more like 40%, using absence numbers at schools and workplaces)

Of that million infections, we've never had over 1000 in hospital, with numbers dropping right now, and maximum 40 in ICU. Deaths are listed at 192, but that is all deaths where covid has been present within 28 days of death. The number confirmed to be as a result of covid is a whopping 43.

It's now abundantly clear that post-vaccination omicron is a very minor issue. The people dying have almost exclusively been very frail people, or as my Aussie mate says, people whose toe tags had already been printed. 'Flu deaths here are ~500 a year, and omicron's going to be much lower than that.

Barring a new variant of concern, the pandemic is done and dusted.
I see nothing about long covid to dissuade me from that view, and omicron has shown that nothing will stop it, so the best plan is to ignore it. Masks are fine, but merely delay the inevitable. The evidence of harm among the vaccinated is sketchy and shows no major harm being done to more than a tiny fraction of people, if even that.

I think The Atheist should offer these guys an apology, but I don't expect him to do so:

Originally Posted by crackers View Post
I am immunocompromised, so I am quite happy to continue wearing a mask until I am the only person I see wearing one.
Originally Posted by 905 View Post
I'm also immunocompromised and don't see dropping my N95 anytime soon, especially as my government (UK) is throwing us under the bus.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 03:09 AM   #78
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
I am not immunocompromised (although the medics think my friend is - she disagrees but took the extra vaccine dose anyway) and I will continue wearing a mask as long as there is significant virus circulating in my local community. I do not care if I'm the only one wearing one.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 03:53 AM   #79
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16,773
Me too. I have been the only one wearing a face mask in supermarkets for a couple of months. Three or four weeks ago, I saw one (1) woman with a face mask, but she was obviously Asian or of Asian descent. (I live near a big hotel and a couple of tourist attractions.) I have seen a few people wearing face masks when getting on and off busses or the metro.
I haven't had anybody give me a funny look the way others have mentioned online, and if it happens I won't give a damn.
I wish there were enough of us to start a trend, but the herd mentality of (mostly imaginary) Western 'individualism' seems to be invincible for now, so herd infection it is.
I will get a Cuban Soberana plus jab in September.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th June 2022 at 04:03 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 05:53 AM   #80
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 49,353
I just got home from church and in fact I wasn't the only one in a mask. A couple of others in the choir were wearing cloth masks and I think I saw one or two others. I took my mask off to drink my coffee afterwards, but stood in the open doorway. (It was raining, otherwise we'd all have been outside at that point.)

I was talking to the preacher afterwards and said, I'd probably be fine to take this mask off in here (good ventilation), but it's my training. Devise a safety protocol and stick to it. You don't just say, "Oh this swan carcass probably doesn't have bird flu and this mask is in the way of my glasses I'll just take it off," you follow the protocol.

Actually the figures for two weeks ago (the latest available) show a viral prevalence of 5% in Scotland, and we are on an increasingly steep up-swing of a new wave. It's seven months since my last vaccine. Why take unnecessary chances?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:03 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.