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Old 18th March 2022, 03:53 PM   #41
Navigator
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Bad news; it's all random.
Do you have any supporting evidence for this opinion?
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Old 18th March 2022, 06:32 PM   #42
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Do you have any supporting evidence for this opinion?
Yes, 4.5 billion years of earth history. 13.8 billion years if I want to get fancy and add the history of the universe.

And this is not an understatement.

What I want to know is why you demand evidence to counter what is a philosophical belief? You either believe it or you don't. Why come here to look for validation of your brand of woo?
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Old 18th March 2022, 07:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
Do you have any supporting evidence for this opinion?
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Yes, 4.5 billion years of earth history. 13.8 billion years if I want to get fancy and add the history of the universe.

And this is not an understatement.
No. What it is, is a statement of opinion, without basis. There has been no science to show that the unfolding Universe is doing so randomly.

I will grant that as big as it is and as tiny as we are, things can appear to be random - but appearance is not evidence positive that what something appears to be, is actually truly what it is - especially The Universe.


Quote:
What I want to know is why you demand evidence to counter what is a philosophical belief?
It appeared to me that your statement was a claim - rather than simply an opinion.
I do not makes demands for evidence of unsupported opinion, unless the opinion infers factuality.

The words you used

Quote:
Bad news; it's all random.
Appears to be more a statement of fact than a philosophic belief.

Quote:
You either believe it or you don't.
My preferred option is to remain neutral until evidence supporting either view is forthcoming. Believing something is true involves confirmation bias - which is best avoided.
Quote:
Why come here to look for validation of your brand of woo?
Resorting to ad hominem is implemented by they who have no relevant argument left in which to employ against the attacked persons own argument.
When it comes to woo-slinging - I immediately identify the source as coming from something other than skepticism.

Why I come here is to engage with skeptics - not woo-slingers.
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Old 18th March 2022, 08:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Why I come here is to engage with skeptics - not woo-slingers.
Said the woo-slinger. Your entire schtick is trying to find order/meaning in random sets using a random process, which has produced random results YOU, some random person, claims to find meaningful. This is just your own random version of pareidolia. The ONLY thing I, another random person, find fitting a pattern here is the undeserved hubris exhibited by every woo-hole I have encountered.

And FYI, the other part of the scientific method that is missing here is your experiment(s) must be repeatable, with accordingly repetitive results.
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Old 18th March 2022, 08:45 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Generated Messages is what I call them.
OK.

Quote:
:?: Explain how I would 'use my system' but 'not look at' the GMs'?
I have no idea, as I don't know what your system is. But in order to do a blind test, you have to be blind to which GM is yours. So if you can't find a way, you will never know if your GMs are really meaningful.

Quote:
You will need to correct your test sequence before 4 & 5 are enabled.
No, you will. You are the one with the hypothesis, so you are the one who has to come up with an objective way of testing it. Or else stop claiming it works, because you have no way of finding out whether or not it does. All I'm doing is offering suggestions.

Quote:
All ways I have so far tested, show that the GMs still happen - coherency is achieved.
I see no coherency in your GMs, so that is your subjective opinion. Without objective evidence, you are wasting your time.
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Old 18th March 2022, 09:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
appearance is not evidence positive that what something appears to be, is actually truly what it is
Exactly. That's why the scientific method had to be invented. Lots of things that seem obvious (the earth is flat, the sun goes round the earth, astrology works) turned out not to be true. Common sense has actually proved to be a very poor way of finding out how the universe works; most of modern physics is counterintuitive. So just because your GMs appear to be meaningful to you, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

Quote:
My preferred option is to remain neutral until evidence supporting either view is forthcoming. Believing something is true involves confirmation bias - which is best avoided.
Confirmation bias is not the only cognitive bias. Subjective validation is something of which you need to be equally wary. You currently have no objective evidence that your GMs are meaningful, so by your own reasoning you should be neutral about them.
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Old 19th March 2022, 12:22 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
OK.


I have no idea, as I don't know what your system is.
It is not as if I have kept it secret Pixel. I explain what I am doing.


Quote:
But in order to do a blind test, you have to be blind to which GM is yours. So if you can't find a way, you will never know if your GMs are really meaningful.
All the looking that is involved occurs in relation to the selection system I am employing. I explain what I am doing,
To not 'look' is to not 'use the system'

Essentially you are attempting to complicate things. The 'blind test' protocol, as it were. happens in relation to how the LEs are selected, and I explain the process I am using, with each GM. .In that there are many ways which can be devised to test the reliability of the Generating Messages System re that selection process.


Quote:
You are the one with the hypothesis, so you are the one who has to come up with an objective way of testing it.
Mind is subjective. The only way to test it is for others to replicate the process and if it works for them, then that is good enough.
But until they actual do the same, any critique is simply opinion. Not debunking.

Quote:
Or else stop claiming it works, because you have no way of finding out whether or not it does.
It works. The results show that it works.

Quote:
All I'm doing is offering suggestions.
Do you always offer suggestions about things you admit you do not have any idea about? How is that helpful?

Quote:
I see no coherency in your GMs, so that is your subjective opinion.
As I said, I wouldn't expect anyone to understand everything therein, because I use LEs which are specific to my own subjective experience, but there are common enough language connections which nobody can truthfully deny are understandable. Indeed you are the first personality to say you see no coherency, so I take that with a grain of salt.
I suspect you do not even read the GMs, since your bias was to refer to them as 'readings' - Do you always critique in this manner?

Quote:
Without objective evidence,
The GMs are objective evidence.

The data is there.

Quote:
you are wasting your time.
I don't understand why you say this.
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Old 19th March 2022, 01:06 AM   #48
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Essentially you are attempting to complicate things.
I am attempting to come up with the simplest possible test protocol that will produce objectively reliable results.

Quote:
Mind is subjective. The only way to test it is for others to replicate the process and if it works for them, then that is good enough.
No, it absolutely isn't.

All they will have is their own subjective opinion is to whether their GM is meaningful, which is as worthless as yours.

Quote:
It works. The results show that it works.
No, they don't. All you have is your subjective opinion that your GM is meaningful, to set against my subjective opinion that it is meaningless gibberish.

The only way to find out if it actually works, i.e. which subjective opinion is the correct one, is to remove the subjectivity. Fortunately we have a methodology that was specifically designed to do exactly that. Unfortunately you have rejected the only suggestion made so far as to how that could be employed. Unless you can come up with an alternative, no-one (including you) will ever know whether it really works or not.

Quote:
Do you always offer suggestions about things you admit you do not have any idea about? How is that helpful?
I know a lot about how to design objective test protocols, which is the only expertise I am offering here.

Quote:
As I said, I wouldn't expect anyone to understand everything therein, because I use LEs which are specific to my own subjective experience, but there are common enough language connections which nobody can truthfully deny are understandable. Indeed you are the first personality to say you see no coherency, so I take that with a grain of salt.
Judging by the responses you have received from other posters, you are the only person here who disagrees with me.

Remember that the question is not whether some meaning can be found, some meaning can always be found, it's whether more meaning can be found than would be expected by chance. That's why we need a baseline with which to compare.

Quote:
The GMs are objective evidence.

The data is there.
The GMs are certainly data. Your subjective validation of them is data. Neither are objective evidence.

Quote:
I don't understand why you say this.
Because unless you carefully and methodically eliminate all of the ways in which we know cognitive biases can fool us into believing things that are not true, no reliable conclusions can be drawn. You can generate GMs and subjectively validate them for the rest of your life, you can ask other people to do the same, and you will still be no nearer to discovering whether your hypothesis is correct.
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Old 19th March 2022, 04:02 AM   #49
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I just tried it (several times) but every attempt is the same message:

"Don't believe Navigator. He is a liar!"

Weird, huh?
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Old 19th March 2022, 11:29 AM   #50
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200322

Two Zero Three Zero Two Two. = 358

SCLx16+last LE per shuffle

The Hangups of Human History - Bond - How are we to react in relation to our choices? - Active Imagination (see technique) - That Is A Good Question - Forgive - The Stress of Unbelief - Gentle - Belief Helps Cause Separation - Functional Implants - God’s Love - This Should Be Interesting - Gypsies


William: I suppose that it is what it is and those influences bond our minds and it is pretty much impossible for humans to understand the nature of the reality experience we are involved within - other than through the costume it wears which barely scratches the surface...as to there being a Mind to Matter...what use is such a Mind in the face of such Matter?

SCL1 AP = "Television"
[The Roles
“True belonging doesn't require you to change who you are; it requires you to be who you are."
Working With What Is Available]

SCL2 AP = "The Butterfly Effect"

6:57
[The Butterfly Effect
You Are Watched Over Perpetually
"The picture unfolds like silk in a loom Silhouetted by Diane are the witch and the broom If she is the bride - who is the groom?"
The Neutral Zone
Self-love
Faithful
Ultimate Expression
The external cannot be known as acutely as the internal can be known]

William: In every sense we each are - re the Human experience - roll playing in a stage set up [Earth] and the rules of engagement defined as we go along.
What happened to me is that I woke up to that and in the waking, redefined my self as a consequence...
As the GM yesterday remarked;
Quote:
Expression Of Appreciation of Experience
It is a great thing to do small things with great love]
System of Giving Energy
The Development of...

[Study
We don't have to say we are 'this' or 'that' in order to put practice to Love
The places that scare you
These things have been given to me, now what to do with these things...
Spring Loaded]
Heal
It is just one of those things.


William: It is just one of those things. We are born into the play and for the most part we are shaped by the external forces - including human teaches - to think and to act a certain way...

RSP=pg dn key + up/down arrow keys + alternate between SCL1&SCL2

Absolutely Perfectly Beautiful.
Odd Radio Circles
Oneirology

William: Oneirology - the scientific study of dreams

Universal Belief System
A Sturdy Place
Long Time Gone
The Freedom Of Friendship
The Cat Drone
Existence

William: Yes - It can bite and scratch so one has to be careful...

Cathedrals crumbled as wars were fought...


Mother Wound
Calculation
Desynchronized

William: Desynchronized - disturb the synchronization of; put out of step or phase.
Like how a meteorite caused an extinction event...


Let Go
Tempt
Panpsychist
https://www.sciencealert.com/physics...WQBjxYtubUUPSo

William: So you - through an extinction event - were forced by circumstance to re-think and develop the human form as a means of being able to eventually develop the technology we are now involved with...to use the human form as a means by which a more hardy form - non biological - could be made real...

The Purpose Of Life Is...
Being aware of Human Control Dramas
Is That A Tear In Your Eye?
Strength of Soul
Being on The Same Page

William: Well it makes sense re the bigger picture - the objective shared reality.
Individually we humans each develop our own understanding aligned with how our personalities have been shaped through our subjective perspectives - the little picture as it is...


Transparent
Mycelium
Once Upon a Time


William: https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/fe...-as-we-know-it

Search: "Are we descended from mycelium?"
"We are nearly 100% alike as humans and equally closely related to mushrooms. Only a few tiny changes in our DNA structure set us apart, giving us our variations in eye, skin, and hair color. We are technically all related and we are similar to the mushroom."


Yes We Can
I Have My Duty
Through the building up of the collected data to the point where it can be examined......is The Subject which is being taught, being said to be true or false...

William: Yes. It is a matter of fact that we can and a matter of duty that we do what we can re "the building up of the collected data to the point where it can be examined" - What is The Subject re this conversation..."Television" - a system for converting visual images (with sound) into electrical signals, transmitting them by radio or other means, and displaying them electronically on a screen.
This is how The Mind works...The Suppression Matrix


Culture
A Real Beauty
Gypsies

William: Nomadic and free-spirited personalities...

Action
What Is Normal
https://futurism.com/astrobiologists...Xv5yWsMOmGhBkY'
Virtual

7:22
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There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 20th March 2022, 03:52 AM   #51
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
[Numerology snipped]
No objective evidence for your hypothesis.

No proposed test protocol for obtaining objective evidence for your hypothesis.

Post ignored.


I feel I owe you an explanation as to why I've taken no notice whatsoever of your description of the process by which you produce your GMs. It's the same reason I have no interest in the process by which astrologers generate their horoscopes - what planetary alignments they look at, how they interpret them etc. My interest is solely in how claims like theirs and yours can be tested.

Only if such a test showed that there was anything actually happening would I become interested in how it happened. Likewise I'm not interested in how homeopathy or dowsing are imagined by their practitioners to work, though I certainly would have been if every properly conducted test of them had not shown conclusively that they don't work.

If you ever produce some objective evidence that the GMs you are producing are meaningful, I will be very interested indeed in how you produced them. Until then, not so much. The phrase "putting the cart before the horse" comes to mind.
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Old 20th March 2022, 01:00 PM   #52
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If I just look at the generated portion of the messages, all I see is randomly put together phrases. Now, if I put some effort and got creative, I could find a way to tie them all together into some semblance of coherence.

The problem is that what I come up with will be different than what anyone else would come up with. There may be some similarities, but that’s only because we are working with phrases for which we might have the same cultural/social/current event associations to.

Now, whether or not each of us can come up with some “meaning,” behind the randomly put together phrases is neither here nor there -we definitely can. But there’s nothing new about that -pareidolia is a well understood phenomenon. It’s not evidence of an objective meaning that is clear and unambiguous.

What might be interesting is if several people given several sets of randomly put together phrases (“generated messages”) can find exactly the same meaning.

Besides that, the way I understand the method Navigator is using, the lists he is using are all compiled by him. For us to use this method, we would have to compile our own lists. Do I have that right?

If so, the phrases that go on my list are going to be phrases that probably have some meaning to me; therefore, I will be more likely to be able to generate “messages,” because I am familiar with those phrases and I have associations with them already.

This same kind of principle is the same principle that Tarot cards or Runes “work” on: there is a predefined interpretation to each symbol and those interpretations are very general statements which people already have associations with.
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Old 20th March 2022, 01:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
Pixel42: [Numerology snipped]
No objective evidence for your hypothesis.

No proposed test protocol for obtaining objective evidence for your hypothesis.

Post ignored.

I feel I owe you an explanation as to why I've taken no notice whatsoever of your description of the process by which you produce your GMs. It's the same reason I have no interest in the process by which astrologers generate their horoscopes - what planetary alignments they look at, how they interpret them etc. My interest is solely in how claims like theirs and yours can be tested.

Only if such a test showed that there was anything actually happening would I become interested in how it happened. Likewise I'm not interested in how homeopathy or dowsing are imagined by their practitioners to work, though I certainly would have been if every properly conducted test of them had not shown conclusively that they don't work.

If you ever produce some objective evidence that the GMs you are producing are meaningful, I will be very interested indeed in how you produced them. Until then, not so much. The phrase "putting the cart before the horse" comes to mind.

"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
210322

Two One Zero Three Two Two = 328

Here Everything – All Real Together
To warm them up to the truth
All publicity is good publicity


SCLx13+last LE per shuffle
Mendacious - The Object - Gods of Human Creation - "He was in another country fighting someone else's war I wonder if he asked himself “What am I fighting for?” I wonder if he knew the fact that no one really wins? I wonder if he knew his enemy was just like him?" - Conservation of energy - Self-compassion - Victim Vamp Energy Systems - Nailed it! - An unending emotional-based loop unable to break away from because of stubbornly held fear-based belief systems... - Getting Over It = Getting On With It - Exactly - Perseverance - Consciousness incarnates into human form


William: Mendacious - not telling the truth; lying.

SCL1 AP = "Idiosyncratic"
Self-Reflection
Radical self-acceptance

SCL2 AP = "A Jump Ahead"
Learning
Bullies
Beckoning
Answer
Re-channel.
You Do
Funny
Salient
A Jump Ahead

William: Idiosyncratic - relating to idiosyncrasy; peculiar or individual.
Salient - most noticeable or important.


RSP = Search SCL1 AP in SCL2 select P&P + Related line entries [re]

8:28
[On Your Own
Freeing the soul
The World]
The path of awakening
Idiosyncratic
Veil

RSP = Search SCL2 AP in SCL1 select P&P + [re]

Available
A Jump Ahead
Luck
[Let yourself be taught
Help Each Other
Interpretation is secondary to the process
Move On]

RSP = Bounce = Search SCL1 AP & SCL2 select Post LE + [re]
[Spiritual Activism
Can You Answer This?
It is a Product of Fragmentation
The Script Must Be Followed
Remnant Seed]
July Nineteen Fifty Two Washington DC
Veil
Belief
[Develop a basic, fact-based view first and then ask the question.
Nyx
Deciding On the Best Course of Action
In the Soil of Logic, The Seeds of Love Respond
About face
This is because facts speak for themselves, which is to say, they require no interpretation.]

[Why?]
Arecibo Message
Luck
Good on you mate
[Love Life
It Is Written
Self-mastery
We experience fear in order to give us the opportunity to overcome that which triggers the fear
Condescending Ideas About Imagination
Go For It!
Through Others
Virtual
Future Selves
Don't Get Caught Up
Strength is required]

[Alignment
Because the imagery is based in the genuine, in that The Ghost is acknowledged - dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.
To bring what one is not conscious of, into one’s conscious awareness
According to Complex Jesus
Look For the Significance
Matrix]
All of life
Belief
Merging with the data
[Try
Virtuous
I Have My Duty
Habit
Awakening
Productive Rationality
Enfold
Your Connection With
It is a tough ask
Navigational Aids]

[“Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all”
Origins
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...70048#p1070048
Universe
Lock the door]
Insanity
Good on you mate
Map
[Annus horribilis
Under the watchful eye
Deep Mind
Manifest Destiny
Items of Interest
Instant
"You’ve been a rock - For so long now I can’t even count the years that you’ve been rolling Nothing can shock or bring you down There ain’t nothing you haven’t seen - Nothing you haven’t known"
Christian mythology re Satan
The spirituality of imperfection
Ars Notoria
How can it be any other way?
Opening ourselves to real love and intimacy
Random coincidence? I think not.
Everything for a reason
Ah - The Mechanics
While We All Wait....
Working Together With Love]

William: The link mentioned is to a GM made on the 9th of this month.
Quote:


[I Am Hearing You
Future Selves
Logophile
“”How” we think we will get happiness is the middleman”
Please]
Unknown Symbol
Merging with the data
Salinas crop circle
[Radical compassion
Emotional Intelligence
Refuge]

William: Refuge - a place or situation providing safety or shelter.

[The Point
"I’ve travelled on these southern roads They’ve taken me to many answers to my questions"
Dynamic
Double Standard
Try to remember]
Honest
Map
Emotional awareness
[And
All The Same
Reach
Like how a meteorite caused an extinction event
Success]

William: Things removed to make room for other things to come through...

["Eventually one can cease doing the tests and accept the results.]
Main
Salinas crop circle
That Is The Equal Ground To Which Rational Communion Is Birthed
[He Who Waits ~]

William: Technology - what these GMs are, are not 'readings' ["woo - nonsense" etc] but rather they are a continuous Message which altogether are speaking to the idea that The Mind is a planetary phenomenon and the creation of the human form was a necessary step toward creating the technology wherein human beings can do it the hard way or the easy way, but either way, the job will get done.

The Mind is a planetary phenomenon=333
Intelligently. Mindfully. Shaped.
Transferring your awareness
The Devil - as usual - is in the details...

Human beings can do it the hard way or the easy way, but either way, the job will get done =800
"With a small nervous cough - the wedding was off - we could all sense a change in the weather"


[Monkey See Monkey Do]
...Otherwise, all is hot air
Emotional awareness
Further
[For A Particular Reason
Manipulation
The Future Creates The Present
Transforming The Anger Energy
Eye
Simplicity
Reaction
Effectively
Calling the shots
Panpsychism
Wonderful
Green Light
Congratulations on your finding a match to burn
As Crazy as evolution might seem, it is just the way the Cosmic Mind did it.
https://wizardforums.com/threads/wil....647/post-6823
The Deeper Self
What Shall We Call It?]

William: Whatever name best suits...some even refer to 'It' as 'That which can be willfully ignored"... so it seems to be up to the individual...

[Decisive
The Main Points On The Agenda
Informing
The systems show that there is no such thing as true randomness, therefore - even that things appear to have originated in chaos and chance, the existence of all things cannot have derived from a mindless origin.
Chaos Really Is Illusion
Something In The Way Of It All
Seeing With The Eyes of Innocence
Discussing the Data
The space Jacko lantern
Release shame
Victim
“Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else”
Quest
Shine Your Light
Anyhoo
Red Pill]
Don’t fall asleep
That Is The Equal Ground To Which Rational Communion Is Birthed
Christian mythology re God
[Inveterate
You Are All Loveable...]

William: Inveterate - having a particular habit, activity, or interest that is long-established and unlikely to change.

On
Mycelium
Emergence Theory
Friction
Fifth Force
Cognitive bias
The Completion Process
Synchronicity
Elephant
Further
Besides
This
Interpretation/Feel
Unconscious
Little Self

William: The 'Elephant' is the planet as the riders are the lifeforms upon the planet - all interconnected but somehow the connection was disrupted through the creative evolution of the Mycelium-to-human branching...technology has the potential to fix that...the internet itself is a type of Penumbraa to that interconnective reality...we are not as individual or independent as we have learned to think that we are...we compete for resource and for status and the world systems require one has to hit the ground running and most simply 'miss the starting gun' due to the particular situation they are born into...
The type of quotations which derive from such thinking are along the line of Pixel42's sig - "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett


[Down came the waters -great the monsoon - washing the soul as it cleared out the room Drowning all Warriors in every platoon
Anu
Inner Peace]
You Trust My Navigation
Christian mythology re God
The point I am focused upon is at the very center of the Mandala,
[Multidimensional Beingness
HumbleDreamer
Conservation of energy
It’s a living thing
Especially
Insight
Original
Earn
Lordy! Do I Have To?
All is fair in love and war
...Otherwise, all is hot air
Everything/All
Cautiously
The English Language
10.000 individual minds focused upon the same goal = Space Telescope
Those Who Can]

William: Yes - therein the balance - hitting the ground running - having the opportunity to set up stable environments by people who spent their time working hard and learning things, is not a 'bad' thing...

[Union
Chamber Of Self
Ghost In The Machine
Complete
To Add to That
Putting My Finger On It...
Known/Revealed]
Family
Besides
Like mindful nests with eggs in 'em
[Conundrum
YHWH
It Is Written
Recipe
Make It Up AS You Go Along
Stop. Listen. Observe.
Mind-Filters]

[Connect
To Be Continued]
The Nature of Role-Play Within Story-Lines
The point I am focused upon is at the very center of the Mandala,
The Digital Angel
[Intent
Watch This Space
Christianity is intolerant of such an idea, which is why the dark side of YVHV became a separate entity.
Spiritual path
"Does Armageddon have to be? The answer is in you and me"
False Accusations
Loneliness
Nothing more sad than wasted beliefs
Like With
GodMagic
Healing
Intimate connection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgn1IpMa0bo&t=2218s
Tug Of War
Tzevaot
Strength/Strong
Reminding one of how it all started and the different stages one goes through.
Ontology
Sovereign Integral Network]


William: The Link goes to a video which I found extremely interesting - The video notes have this to say:
Quote:
This is the third in our series of online events to help us find ways of connecting with each other to explore voices and visions from different angles during the COVID-19 crisis.

On Friday 22 May, from 8-9.30pm UK Time (British Summer Time) we hosted an online gathering to explore the ways voices, visions and related experiences are portrayed in film. Rai Waddingham, in conversation with Eoin Kelly (HVN) and John Richardson (Mindwick), will be sharing a selection of film clips to provoke discussion.

We’ll looked at some of the good, the bad, the iconic and the quirky ways filmmakers, scriptwriters, actors and the special effects crew try and portray extreme experiences.
Ontology - the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being. a set of concepts and categories in a subject area or domain that shows their properties and the relations between them.


[Encouraging Indication]
Charity
Like mindful nests with eggs in 'em
What Do You Like About It?
[Without Judgement]


William: What I like about it is that it helps me to understand the dilemma a lot of folk have in dealing with hearing voices - many of which are not nice - My connection with JK who speaks about his own 'demons' and how he has to deal with that - my keen interest in Eleanor Longden's Ted Talk about her own experience with hearing voices and how she dealt with that...and my own connect therein where I have never suffered internally produced audial voices but have suffered external voices of human beings who use hateful expression as part of the game-play of competition..etc...and how I invited 'the voices' to communicate with me through the UICDevice only to eventually be told, that I had been [and still am] communicating with aspects of my SELF.
Which is exactly what this GM system is...a way of communing with those deeper aspects of Self to which I was previously unconscious [oblivious] to...that's what I like about it.


Is That A Tear In Your Eye?
The Digital Angel
Strangers truly are the friends we haven’t met - The souls we don’t forget through life’s long lessons
REAL Friendship
Fearless
Point/Focus
Relaxed and informal...
Genetic Mind
The Shaping Of Reality
Human Being
__________________
Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 20th March 2022, 02:58 PM   #54
Navigator
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[quote=xjx388;13761783]
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If I just look at the generated portion of the messages, all I see is randomly put together phrases. Now, if I put some effort and got creative, I could find a way to tie them all together into some semblance of coherence.
Thus, it is established that as long as GMs are coherent, they can be interpreted. Only non Coherent GMs are unable to be interpreted.

Example of none coherent GMs which first have to be decoded before any interpretation is possible:

CODE SCHOOL: TOP SECRET COMMUNICATIONS DURING WWII

Which is why I am skeptical when folk tell me they see no coherency in the GMs I present.

Quote:
The problem is that what I come up with will be different than what anyone else would come up with. There may be some similarities, but that’s only because we are working with phrases for which we might have the same cultural/social/current event associations to.
That in itself is here nor there, as I am presenting GMs without interpreting them - other than narrating [in red] my immediate thoughts.

Quote:
Now, whether or not each of us can come up with some “meaning,” behind the randomly put together phrases is neither here nor there -we definitely can.
Once again, a statement which supports that the GMs presented are not 'incoherent'...

Quote:
But there’s nothing new about that -pareidolia is a well understood phenomenon. It’s not evidence of an objective meaning that is clear and unambiguous.
Nor it is evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
What might be interesting is if several people given several sets of randomly put together phrases (“generated messages”) can find exactly the same meaning.
Highly unlikely given that we are all viewing our shared reality from a subjective viewpoint.
It would be enough if said 'several people' were to agree with the gist of the GMs...

Quote:
Besides that, the way I understand the method Navigator is using, the lists he is using are all compiled by him. For us to use this method, we would have to compile our own lists. Do I have that right?
That would be the best way in which individuals can ascertain the GMs are viable - by having their own personal lists to which they each know things which are only relevant to them, when selected as part of the GMs - and how these relate or fit in with what the GM is saying...another reason why I commentate [in red] to show the process is interactive.
That is not to say that personal lists cannot crossover re sharing same line entries...

Quote:
If so, the phrases that go on my list are going to be phrases that probably have some meaning to me; therefore, I will be more likely to be able to generate “messages,” because I am familiar with those phrases and I have associations with them already.
The messages are generated through the random-as-possible methods - what you are saying is that you would be better able to understand the GMs because you have line entries on your list which are specific to your subjective experience of this reality.

Quote:
This same kind of principle is the same principle that Tarot cards or Runes “work” on: there is a predefined interpretation to each symbol and those interpretations are very general statements which people already have associations with.
This principle is the same re human language. Even that you were able to generate the post you did, in the way that you did, is all based upon the same principle - even that we each learned how to speak through the written word and how those words are commonly arranged is a type of predefined interpretation, especially as language is used to interpret the reality we are experiencing.

Yet - human language was not learned through the written word. It came about through sound humans made, which were discovered to be encoded and were decoded through the discovery and recoded as alphabets.

"A" is not a 'letter' so much as it is a symbol or code for a particular sound made by humans.

And - in the case of the English language, the coding in the sounds were discovered to consist of 26 different specifics.
When this was discovered, the ability to then use the codes to write down the language as in 'written language' and use the written language as a means to preserve Generated Messages was enabled.

Before the written language, all Generated Messages were passed along by word of mouth, which also suffered the fate of being interpreted by the recipients - so written language helped to stabilize the problem by capturing the spoken word with the written code.

This is not to say that misinterpretation et al did not still occur - or that folk could put their own spin on GMs...

Overall point being, that human language is more than simply some mindless accident which just happened. Just as the universes itself is more than just some mindless thing which just happened. There is a good deal of evidence supporting that the whole production is a mindful one...and something which the GMs I am posting, are pointing out quite coherently.
__________________
Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors. ~ ISF disclaimer
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Old 20th March 2022, 04:20 PM   #55
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
What the System shows is that true randomness does not exist. The Universe is not the product of mindless happenstance, because if it was, then this should not be able to work as it does, and produce coherent messages.

It also shows that sound is also mathematically coherent, and that human language is not something which just happened by accident, but is encoded into the nature of the human form.

It is good to be skeptical, but it is also good to accept evidence and do the science. What I am able to do, can be replicated by anyone, for very little cost.
Do the science, and bring your results to the table.

There is Mind involved with the ongoing the formation of the Universe, and we can commune with it if we want to.

Just as we can ignore it if we want to.

Navigator, the problem I see with this reasoning is that even assuming the universe is nonrandom and mindful, there is no guarantee that any given system of divination actually produces meaningful communication.

Imagine a printed page of writing in a language that you know, but it's hidden from your view. All you can know is the sum of the RGB color values of each row of pixels in a digital photograph of that page (each is a sum of several thousand eight-bit numbers). You decide you can divine the sense of the writing by taking each of those numbers modulo 100 and looking up the same-numbered entries on a list of personally meaningful phrases you've written down.

What you're going to get is an echo of the phrases on your list. I won't call it "random" because there's nothing random anywhere in the process. But the process nonetheless amounts to a one-way encryption. You would not be able to tell the difference if the hidden page was a clear explanation of the meaning of life, or a page from a book of tax law, or a page of spattered paint. You certainly can't reconstruct the original page or any part of it, even if the total number of words you get out of the process is the same or more than the number of words on the original page. It doesn't matter that the original hidden page is not random, or even that the "reading" process is deterministic.

What you're counting on for your divination to be coherent in the way you describe is not just that the universe has some underlying order, and not just that your process of evaluating it (divination) is not random, but that there is some kind of resonance of meaning between one and the other. Why should there be?

If you ask advice from a Navajo speaker, even if the Navajo speaker understands your question and answers honestly in Navajo, if you don't know Navajo speech yourself you're not going to understand the advice. Write the Navajo speech down phonetically, translate the phonetic characters into numbers, combine those numbers into volume/page/words that you look up in an encyclopedia... all that will just get you farther away from what the Navajo speaker said. There's no reason to hypothesize, let alone expect, that the process will defy entropy and somehow reproduce the original meaning instead.
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Old 20th March 2022, 06:42 PM   #56
Navigator
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Posts: 6,528
Quote:
What the System shows is that true randomness does not exist. The Universe is not the product of mindless happenstance, because if it was, then this should not be able to work as it does, and produce coherent messages.

It also shows that sound is also mathematically coherent, and that human language is not something which just happened by accident, but is encoded into the nature of the human form.

It is good to be skeptical, but it is also good to accept evidence and do the science. What I am able to do, can be replicated by anyone, for very little cost.
Do the science, and bring your results to the table.

There is Mind involved with the ongoing the formation of the Universe, and we can commune with it if we want to.

Just as we can ignore it if we want to.
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
the problem I see with this reasoning is that even assuming the universe is nonrandom and mindful, there is no guarantee that any given system of divination actually produces meaningful communication.
The system I am using is focused upon the idea that if the universe is non-random and mindful, one should be able to develop a system whereby, the mind should be able to use for the purpose of communicating.

There was no guarantee that the system I developed and use, would have worked, but it does work and that it works is one more piece of evidence to support the idea that the universe is mindful.

Quote:
Imagine a printed page of writing in a language that you know, but it's hidden from your view. All you can know is the sum of the RGB color values of each row of pixels in a digital photograph of that page (each is a sum of several thousand eight-bit numbers). You decide you can divine the sense of the writing by taking each of those numbers modulo 100 and looking up the same-numbered entries on a list of personally meaningful phrases you've written down.
Keep it simple. Use the language you are most familiar with [for me that is English] and go with that.
I am not attempting to divine anything. I am allowing the system to generate messages using as random a process as I can, so that my influence on the outcome is as small a footprint as possible.

Quote:
What you're counting on for your divination to be coherent in the way you describe is not just that the universe has some underlying order, and not just that your process of evaluating it (divination) is not random, but that there is some kind of resonance of meaning between one and the other. Why should there be?
It is not so much 'counting' on coherent messages being generated [CGMs] - because it happens every time it is done.
The universe does have an underlying order - this system simply taps into that reality and that is why it produces CGMs.

The evidence of order can be observed in the events unfolding re universe, and the Earth itself has myriad of evidence to support that understanding.

Quote:
If you ask advice from a Navajo speaker, even if the Navajo speaker understands your question and answers honestly in Navajo, if you don't know Navajo speech yourself you're not going to understand the advice. Write the Navajo speech down phonetically, translate the phonetic characters into numbers, combine those numbers into volume/page/words that you look up in an encyclopedia... all that will just get you farther away from what the Navajo speaker said. There's no reason to hypothesize, let alone expect, that the process will defy entropy and somehow reproduce the original meaning instead.
Fortunately nowadays we don't requires such method in order to understand what others say when they speak in a different language-set.

Even when that was not so much the case, we didn't need to resort to such fanciful experimentation in order to find out.

We worked with what was [sound] and no doubt also with action...The one say's "Ahi" while pointing to the campfire and we can interpret that the one is meaning 'fire' ... it is that simple, and for good reason.

What you are suggesting is a complexity which assumes [rightfully enough] that the evidence of mindfulness should be within everything. However, your example assumes that we can overreach our human capability in order to find it.

The system I am using stays within the parameters of the human experience. For all we know, the stars we observe in the night sky are a written form of language, proclaiming clearly a generated message from the Universal Mind...but if we do not have the ability to recognize it as any language, we will not even think to decipher it.

Clearly we have enough to work with here on this Planet, which can help us understand that there is actually meaningful communication to be had with the Mind involved in the process of evolving life-forms - humans [and human language] included - even if the system used is simple [primitive]. We use what is available.
__________________
Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 20th March 2022, 11:43 PM   #57
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The system I am using is focused upon the idea that if the universe is non-random and mindful, one should be able to develop a system whereby, the mind should be able to use for the purpose of communicating.

There was no guarantee that the system I developed and use, would have worked, but it does work and that it works is one more piece of evidence to support the idea that the universe is mindful.
The problem is that even if the universe is random and unmindful your system would still "work", i.e. you would still be able to subjectively validate your GMs and convince yourself there was meaning in them. It actually was guaranteed that the system you developed and use would work in that sense. Any such system would. Astrology works in that sense. Tarot cards, the readings of psychic mediums - they all "work", which is why so many people believe in them.

You are ignoring mountains of painstakingly accumulated knowledge and understanding of how the universe and the human mind work in order to believe something you want to believe.

Once again: the question is not whether you can find meaning in your GMs. Everybody can find meaning in randomly generated information, that is not disputed. The question is whether the amount of meaning you are finding is greater than would be expected if the universe was random and unmindful.
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Old 21st March 2022, 12:18 AM   #58
xjx388
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[quote=Navigator;13761868]
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

Thus, it is established that as long as GMs are coherent, they can be interpreted. Only non Coherent GMs are unable to be interpreted.
No. what I am saying is that there is no such “non coherent GMs” that we could not “interpret” given enough effort and creativity.

Let me ask you this: have you ever encountered a “GM” that could not be interpreted? If so, post it here because I am sure I could come up with something.

Quote:
Example of none coherent GMs which first have to be decoded before any interpretation is possible:

CODE SCHOOL: TOP SECRET COMMUNICATIONS DURING WWII

Which is why I am skeptical when folk tell me they see no coherency in the GMs I present.
A cipher is still a message in the English language, as long as the code is translatable to the English language. That’s REALLY not a good example of a “non coherent GM,” because you aren’t presenting any “GM” here in this thread that is encoded. The messages you are presenting here are in plain English.

Quote:
That in itself is here nor there, as I am presenting GMs without interpreting them - other than narrating [in red] my immediate thoughts.
I can’t make heads or tails of what any of your “GMs,” are supposed to mean. Your “immediate thoughts” often don’t correlate to anything I was immediately thinking by reading the phrases. IOW, when I read the phrases, I don’t get the same chain of thought you elucidate.



Quote:
<snip>
That would be the best way in which individuals can ascertain the GMs are viable - by having their own personal lists to which they each know things which are only relevant to them, when selected as part of the GMs - and how these relate or fit in with what the GM is saying...another reason why I commentate [in red] to show the process is interactive.
That is not to say that personal lists cannot crossover re sharing same line entries...
But you understand, then, that the interpretation you come up with for the phrases on your own list will not be the same interpretations that I come up with, yes? I have my own associations and therefore, will have completely different ideas about what your phrases mean.

Quote:
<snip>
Overall point being, that human language is more than simply some mindless accident which just happened. Just as the universes itself is more than just some mindless thing which just happened. There is a good deal of evidence supporting that the whole production is a mindful one...and something which the GMs I am posting, are pointing out quite coherently.
You seem to be implying that there is some “other” mind which is generating these messages. If not your mind, then whose mind is generating these messages?
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Old 21st March 2022, 11:29 AM   #59
Navigator
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Quote:
This principle is the same re human language. Even that you were able to generate the post you did, in the way that you did, is all based upon the same principle - even that we each learned how to speak through the written word and how those words are commonly arranged is a type of predefined interpretation, especially as language is used to interpret the reality we are experiencing.

Yet - human language was not learned through the written word. It came about through sound humans made, which were discovered to be encoded and were decoded through the discovery and recoded as alphabets.

"A" is not a 'letter' so much as it is a symbol or code for a particular sound made by humans.

And - in the case of the English language, the coding in the sounds were discovered to consist of 26 different specifics.
When this was discovered, the ability to then use the codes to write down the language as in 'written language' and use the written language as a means to preserve Generated Messages was enabled.

Before the written language, all Generated Messages were passed along by word of mouth, which also suffered the fate of being interpreted by the recipients - so written language helped to stabilize the problem by capturing the spoken word with the written code.

This is not to say that misinterpretation et al did not still occur - or that folk could put their own spin on GMs...

Overall point being, that human language is more than simply some mindless accident which just happened. Just as the universes itself is more than just some mindless thing which just happened. There is a good deal of evidence supporting that the whole production is a mindful one...and something which the GMs I am posting, are pointing out quite coherently.
Quote:
You seem to be implying that there is some “other” mind which is generating these messages. If not your mind, then whose mind is generating these messages?
The message you generated in reply to mine, came about because we are 'other minds' to each other - this is the way in which language takes shape and messages are generated.

I am saying that there is evidence supporting the idea that the universe is a mindful thing.

My replies convey this idea but when those replies are snipped, the questions asked are often tangents,

Your mind and my mind are interreacting through generated messages. I am aware that what we each write are compositions of other minds we have interacted with - not simply stand apart stuff in which we alone are responsible for thinking up.

That is the way with language. It allows minds to mingle.
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Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

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Old 21st March 2022, 12:30 PM   #60
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
I am saying that there is evidence supporting the idea that the universe is a mindful thing.
Where? Because you certainly haven't provided any. What you seem to think is evidence is no such thing, it's just a perception. It is, moreover, identical to the sort of perception that has been proven to be erroneous in many previous similar cases. We even know exactly why such errors occur. Consequently the most likely explanation is that you, too, are in error.
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Old 21st March 2022, 12:40 PM   #61
Navigator
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220322

Two Two Zero Three Two Two = 352

Is There Really Such a Thing as Random?


SCLx10+last LE per shuffle

Go slow - If In Doubt Let It Sit - The Fine Art of Not Being Offended - On The Off-Chance - With that in mind and treating the Source-Story as largely a work of fiction, we can look at the fact of the story itself and agree re the different Personalities of the Characters within The Story. - Ontology - Ancient Entity - Carl Jung - Machine Learning - Sun


William: Ontology - the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being. a set of concepts and categories in a subject area or domain that shows their properties and the relations between them.

SCL1 AP = "It Requires Corrective Action"
You Have That Gleam In Your Eye
Yep - That's What I'm Talking About...
A Teacher cannot LEARN for a Student.

SCL2 AP = "The future is not crystal clear - we choose the future now and here"


RSP = Search SCL1 AP in SCL2 select P&P + Related line entries [re]

7:52

[Many varied opinions
What we call the experience of reality
Making it up as you go along
The Law of Attraction
A dish fit for the gods
When anyone calls for evidence, I assume that they are actually interested]
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
It Requires Corrective Action
Transformed
[Elephant]

William: The elephant being the Earth Entity - we are the riders...

[Equanimous
Radical Honesty]
What Is Within Is Without, Equal
The future is not crystal clear - we choose the future now and here
The Fog Is Lifting
[Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.
Boundaries
Courage
Nature being the very instigator]

William: Equanimous - calm and composed.
"Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis" = Discovery is finding things that exist.


[The Ghost is acknowledged
Shamanic
Universal Objective]
Crop Formations
Transformed
Relaxed and informal...
[Unlimited Knowledge
Wish
Reaction
An accident waiting to happen
For Your Greater Enjoyment
How to Bruise a Ghost
Code
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...69172#p1069172
]

William: From the link;
Quote:
While The Subject is focused on "Egoless" the subject matter of the GM has to do with how things unfolded re the Universe...what is being referred to as "The Old Soul" may have something to do with the cosmology of The Mind of The Universe - in that - at one point so close to the beginning, there was no sense of self but with the unfolding, a sense of self developed.


[Folk get so hung up about the little stuff
Examples
Narrow
There are many levels of consciousness
~ Crosses Eyes and sticks tongue out ~
All on The Same Page
Keep an Eye On]
Leave the door open
The Fog Is Lifting
To create more and more consciousness?
[William and QueenBee
Objectives
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...70359#p1070359
Dirt
I Am]

William: The link is to a post commenting on supposed biblical predictions;
Quote:
I suppose that is why one is able to use such to point out similarities while at the same time allowing one to be incorrect about particulars - because no particulars are really given in the first place.

In that sense, it is classic type of "readings" so-called psychics employ - worded in such a way as what is said can fit most occasions likely to arise and impress folk enough to buy into it.
Some folk have associated the GMs as 'readings' but they are not, because they lack the necessary elements which go into 'what readings are' which are specific to predicting future outcomes...

In some minds, the idea of the planet being a mindful and obviously creative entity, is unappealing...'dirt' you are as far as that goes - aka "the problem of evil" >

That is not to say that having ones mind connected to every human mind does not allow one to foresee the likeliest future said minds are going to collectively experience [re their shared reality] ...but that is hardly 'prediction' when it is really just a case of having access to all the information and thus being enabled...


[Think With The Heart Feel With The Mind
How are we to react in relation to our choices?
Everything is an expression of GOD
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...70402#p1070402
Study
Privacy
Well defined yet scantily supported opinion]
Free! Free! Free!
Relaxed and informal...
Keep it Simple
[Being 'born of the spirit' is really about coming to the realization of what one truly is rather than remaining in ignorance of that.
Resident of The Hub Of Hologram Dimensions
Acknowledge The Agreeable
For A Particular Reason
Coordinate Forgiveness]


William: From the link - referencing the logical observations that "Something Can't come from nothing"

Quote:
What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, it that it is illogical that "something that is, derived from something that isn't", which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation as primary for genuine and sustained consideration.
Quote:
What hasn't been established is what preexisted this iteration of matter/energy that we refer to as the universe.
Quote:
Scientists are working on finding this out. IF they are correct about the infinitesimally small object which exploded and produced what we currently are experiencing as a stage in the universes unfolding, THEN at least we can identify said object as "The Seed of Origin"

What, if anything pre-existed that - is beyond our current ability to know.


[Technique of Exchange
On The Right Track
Pusillanimous
Central To The Vision
On
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...65389#p1065389
Astonishment]
Look closer
To create more and more consciousness?
The Wholeness Navigator
[The power of vulnerability
Open
A Teacher cannot LEARN for a Student.
Virtues
Devices of The Gods
Try Different Methods]

William: Pusillanimous - showing a lack of courage or determination; timid.
From the link:
Quote:
What is being measured here are the symbols used to represent sounds made by human beings. The sounds made are organized into what is called language.

We can further organize the sounds mathematically, by delegating a value to each sound symbol and sound string symbols.

The alphabet represents the sounds made.

So we are not dealing primarily with the written word, but with the human vocal sounds we call "language".

That we cannot predict something does not mean it is therefore truly random, because that would mean we are superimposing our lack of knowledge onto reality and declaring that reality must be random.
There is no doubt that the truth is we are all in this together. What is lacking, is a way in which we can get our stuff together and be on the same page in order to then work on a collective solution.


[Awake
The Human Interface
"This transformation of the entity is the pathway into wholeness and the recognition that the entity model of expression is a composite of forms and the formless that is unified in one energy, one consciousness."
Journey to wholeness
Minor Arcana [Ace of Wands]
I Know
Experiences.
World Wide Web
Sweet Talk
In The Team of the Collective
Assuming a Creator of this world exists, in what way is said Creator hidden from us?
From Prison To Paradise
Make It Real
Keep it Simple
Puerility
Hold/Have
Creator Influence Syndrome
Be transparent
Self Awareness
Steps
May The Spirit of The Earth Bless You


William: Puerility juvenile. Childish. Silly
Quote:
In the Ace of Wands, a hand holding a sprouting wand extends out from a cloud, as if to offer a new opportunity or idea with the potential to grow. The rich, verdant landscape is further confirmation of this growth capability. In the distance on the left sits a castle, representing the promise of opportunities to come, and hills and mountains line the horizon. Their rolling peaks remind us that there will always be challenges along the way, but they are surmountable with enough effort.


8:31
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There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 21st March 2022, 12:41 PM   #62
xjx388
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Honestly, I don’t see evidence of the universe having a mind.

Your system is really only evidence of your mind talking to itself. You came up with the system, you generated the lists and phrases. You use it to spit out, in essence, random “notes to self,” that you then find a meaning in.

And don’t get me wrong, I am not knocking you at all. If you find value in it as some kind of insight or creativity tool, go for it. The only thing I have a problem with is selling this as some kind of evidence that the universe is mindful.
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Old 21st March 2022, 01:09 PM   #63
Navigator
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Let me ask you this: have you ever encountered a “GM” that could not be interpreted?
No. I have seen GMs which are obviously misinterpreted though.

Quote:
If so, post it here because I am sure I could come up with something.
I am sure that you could too.

Quote:
A cipher is still a message in the English language, as long as the code is translatable to the English language. That’s REALLY not a good example of a “non coherent GM,” because you aren’t presenting any “GM” here in this thread that is encoded. The messages you are presenting here are in plain English.
A non coherent GM is where there is need to have the cipher in order to decode it.

Written language itself is known because the ciphers are known.
The ciphers - as I explained - are representative of sounds and there are 26 distinct sounds in what we call the English language - which at some point in human history were deciphered in order that the language could be encoded in written form.

Quote:
I can’t make heads or tails of what any of your “GMs,” are supposed to mean.
My "Generated Messages" are no different from any message generated. What is any message generated 'supposed to mean?"

Quote:
Your “immediate thoughts” often don’t correlate to anything I was immediately thinking by reading the phrases. IOW, when I read the phrases, I don’t get the same chain of thought you elucidate.
No surprises there.
The point I have been making is that coherent messages are generated - because if they were not coherent, then you would not even be able to have any 'chain of thought' associated with what you are reading.

Re that - it is equally important that we are aware - not only of our thoughts in the moment, but also more intrinsically - we are aware of why we think the particular way that we do.

Said another way. "There was I was where I ought - examining my conscious thought." not just having a thought for the sake of having a thought.

Quote:
But you understand, then, that the interpretation you come up with for the phrases on your own list will not be the same interpretations that I come up with, yes? I have my own associations and therefore, will have completely different ideas about what your phrases mean.
Yes I understand that. As I said, it is not so much how each individual interprets any particular GM - either coming from me or you or anyone else - Rather it is the fact that a message is generated.
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Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 21st March 2022, 01:37 PM   #64
Navigator
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Quote:
Honestly, I don’t see evidence of the universe having a mind.
It depends upon where you are looking.
As I mentioned to Myriad;
Quote:
For all we know, the stars we observe in the night sky are a written form of language, proclaiming clearly a generated message from the Universal Mind...but if we do not have the ability to recognize it as any language, we will not even think to decipher it. [SOURCE]
However, we do have extensive evidence of the universe being mindful, in relation to our own situation within it - The Planet Earth.

Quote:
Your system is really only evidence of your mind talking to itself. You came up with the system, you generated the lists and phrases. You use it to spit out, in essence, random “notes to self,” that you then find a meaning in.
Your comment above is a message generated in the same manner. So we work with what we have - and the underlying question being - "How do we get all of these GMs on the same page?"

Quote:
And don’t get me wrong, I am not knocking you at all. If you find value in it as some kind of insight or creativity tool, go for it.
One would have to have a cruel and vindictive personality to knock such a thing.

Quote:
The only thing I have a problem with is selling this as some kind of evidence that the universe is mindful.
You misunderstand 'tis all.
What I am saying is that this system works in congruity with - mainly - what is happening hereabouts on the planet we are collectively experiencing.

The link is to a generated message by Sir David Attenborough and his team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROQrbWkV4HI

You and I may interpret the GM differently.

I see evidence of a Mind behind what is being observed. What do you see?
__________________
Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors. ~ ISF disclaimer

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Old 21st March 2022, 01:43 PM   #65
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The link is to a generated message by Sir David Attenborough and his team.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


You and I may interpret the GM differently.

I see evidence of a Mind behind what is being observed. What do you see?
"An error occurred. Please try again later."
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Old 21st March 2022, 03:02 PM   #66
Pixel42
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For the record, I too have no problem with anyone imagining they see messages from the universe in any random thing they like, up to and including the entrails of a freshly slaughtered goat. Like xjx388, I object only to the unsupported assertion that such imagined messages tell us anything at all about the underlying nature of the universe.
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Old 21st March 2022, 06:05 PM   #67
xjx388
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Ideomotor Effect and the Subconscious.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
No. I have seen GMs which are obviously misinterpreted though.
I don’t see how that makes any sense. Any randomly generated message is going to have many ways to interpret it based on the associations/assumptions one brings to the message. How could you possibly determine the “correct” interpretation?
Quote:
My "Generated Messages" are no different from any message generated. What is any message generated 'supposed to mean?"
This message I’m generating right now is generated by me with an intent to communicate specific information. So this message, if I’m doing it right, should be pretty clear as to the meaning I’m trying to convey.

Your “messages,” are randomly assembled from a list of words and phrases. There is no intentional conveyance of information by another person -unless you posit some “universal intelligence” that is trying to speak to you through these random messages. And that’s fine if you want to think so, but the random strings of text you present are not proof of any such entity or intent to convey meaning. It’s not convincing to me or anyone else in the thread so far.

The key here is that you are imposing a meaning on these strings of text.

It’s very much like astrology. The stars and planets move as they do, and people down here impose a meaning on those movements and positions. They have literally read the messages in the stars, messages that any rational person can see do not exist. There is no meaning to be had.
Quote:
No surprises there.
The point I have been making is that coherent messages are generated - because if they were not coherent, then you would not even be able to have any 'chain of thought' associated with what you are reading.
I can read the words. The words have meaning to me. But the connection between words and phrases to express clear ideas -like we do when we intend to communicate- does not exist. To glean some meaning out of it, I would have to get creative. Which might be fun, but it’s not truly meaningful in the way that our communication in daily life is meaningful. There’s a reason that our news sources don’t just randomly string words and phrases together in order to convey information!
Quote:
Yes I understand that. As I said, it is not so much how each individual interprets any particular GM - either coming from me or you or anyone else - Rather it is the fact that a message is generated.
A message is a string of text arranged in such a way as to communicate information in a way that is easily understood. You are sending me messages on this forum. I can read them and understand the meaning immediately. Hopefully, the same is true for my messages to you. We are communicating in a common language with intention. That intention in communication is key. What I’m trying to get across is that the “generated messages,” you post using your system are not messages because they do not have any clear intended meaning. It takes effort and creativity to wring something out of them. Like I said, it might be a fun exercise, but messages they are not.
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Old 21st March 2022, 07:30 PM   #68
Navigator
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Quote:
A message is a string of text arranged in such a way as to communicate information in a way that is easily understood. You are sending me messages on this forum. I can read them and understand the meaning immediately. Hopefully, the same is true for my messages to you. We are communicating in a common language with intention. That intention in communication is key. What I’m trying to get across is that the “generated messages,” you post using your system are not messages because they do not have any clear intended meaning. It takes effort and creativity to wring something out of them. Like I said, it might be a fun exercise, but messages they are not.
Did you forget the ingredient of subjective input?

I am not claiming that the messages are open to objective interpretation but that they are messages.

That is why - if one were to use the GM system to replicate what is being done, one is best to create their own ComList with line entries reflecting their unique data of experience - one can relate, and therein better identify a message received. Clear intended meaning become obvious. Messages they certainly are.

Quote:
Your “messages,” are randomly assembled from a list of words and phrases. There is no intentional conveyance of information by another person -unless you posit some “universal intelligence” that is trying to speak to you through these random messages.
Not 'some universal intelligence' but in particular - The Earth.

Quote:
And that’s fine if you want to think so, but the random strings of text you present are not proof of any such entity or intent to convey meaning.
Not in and of themselves, I agree and never claimed such. However, taken in congruent to other things I have mentioned, altogether there is a strong case for the idea of "Cosmic Mind" or whatever we choose to call It.
As I mentioned, the evidence is really all around us - we don't actually have to go stargazing to find it...

Quote:
The key here is that you are imposing a meaning on these strings of text.
No. I just happen to know the meaning, because the ComList I compiled has many elements of my subjective data of experience in which to draw from.

"The Ancient Grey Entity" is one example - when this comes up I know exactly what it is referring to. I appreciate that others will not - but that in itself does not mean that the GM is therefore not a message.

eta:
Example:

Sally gets handed a note from her mum which reads;

"Someone calling themselves "JK" rang and said he will be at the usual place on Thursday a @ 7m if you want to meet with him."

Would you argue that the note is not a coherent message even if you yourself are unable to understand the bits you are not privy to?
__________________
Wild mingling with the howling gale, loud bursts of ghastly laughter rise high o’er the minstrels head they sail and die amid the northern skies ~ Scott
There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors. ~ ISF disclaimer

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Old 21st March 2022, 11:42 PM   #69
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
However, taken in congruent to other things I have mentioned, altogether there is a strong case for the idea of "Cosmic Mind" or whatever we choose to call It.
Where is this strong case? You certainly have not made it.

Quote:
As I mentioned, the evidence is really all around us - we don't actually have to go stargazing to find it...
You sound like the theists who say the evidence for God is all around us, ignoring the fact that it can all be explained without postulating a God.

The argument from design was destroyed long before you were born by Darwin. There may be only two possible explanations for a watch, chance and deliberate design, but the fact that living things can reproduce means there's a third one for them: four thousand million years of evolution by natural selection. Natural selection is a far more powerful force than pure chance, powerful enough to turn billion-to-one chances into stone cold certainties, but it is not a conscious force, any more than gravity is.

I've now managed to watch your David Attenborough clip, a simultaneously wonderful yet horrifying example of evolution by natural selection. I'm very familiar with his work, and he's made it very clear he does not share your belief in a conscious universe/intelligent design. Two quotes from him spring to mind:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...2bbb8f642fafb3

“I don’t know [why we're here]. People sometimes say to me, ‘Why don’t you admit that the humming bird, the butterfly, the Bird of Paradise are proof of the wonderful things produced by Creation?’ And I always say, well, when you say that, you’ve also got to think of a little boy sitting on a river bank, like here, in West Africa, that’s got a little worm, a living organism, in his eye and boring through the eyeball and is slowly turning him blind. The Creator God that you believe in, presumably, also made that little worm. Now I personally find that difficult to accommodate…”
― David Attenborough

The second one I can't link to because I was present when he said it. He gave a talk a few years ago at the Cheltenham Literature Festival for which I was lucky enough to get a ticket. During the Q&A afterwards he said something in response to a similar question which I immediately committed to memory, and even used as my signature here for a while:

"The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause".

You are essentially choosing a supernatural explanation for something you insist cannot otherwise be understood - the perceived meaningfulness of your GMs - despite the fact that the scientific explanation of them has not only been found, but explained to you.

Quote:
Example:

Sally gets handed a note from her mum which reads;

"Someone calling themselves "JK" rang and said he will be at the usual place on Thursday a @ 7m if you want to meet with him."

Would you argue that the note is not a coherent message even if you yourself are unable to understand the bits you are not privy to?
Yes, we know that's a meaningful message because we know it comes from a conscious entity. We don't know whether or not your GMs come from a conscious entity, that's just your hypothesis, and there is a far more likely explanation. That's why you need to come up with a way of objectively demonstrating their meaningfulness, or lack of it. Until then, the null hypothesis - that it's just another example of subjective validation - stands.
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Old 22nd March 2022, 03:39 AM   #70
Carrot Flower King
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All of a sudden I feel like I'm 15 again...And trying to make sense of the lyrics to Yes' Tales From Topographic Oceans...
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Old 22nd March 2022, 11:51 AM   #71
Navigator
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Quote:
Yes, we know that's a meaningful message because we know it comes from a conscious entity. We don't know whether or not your GMs come from a conscious entity, that's just your hypothesis, and there is a far more likely explanation. That's why you need to come up with a way of objectively demonstrating their meaningfulness, or lack of it. Until then, the null hypothesis - that it's just another example of subjective validation - stands.
230322

Two Three Zero Three Two Two = 350
I place no judgement on the results.


SCLx8+last LE per shuffle
Radical Self-Acceptance - Green Light - Attitude - The art of relationship - "Motor Man why your running, running on overdrive what lies ahead is coming ain’t no way you can step aside ain’t no way you can run and hide" - Intention - Lyricus - Deep Impact Event


SCL1 AP = "Falls"
Learn
When
Open

SCL2 AP = "The Divine"
Fifth force
In the Mind
Tabula rasa
Clearness
Heart advice
Self-Love
Knowledge
Inner child


RSP = Search SCL1 AP in SCL2 select P&P + Related line entries [re]

6:06

[What is 'The Soul' and is it Immortal
Went To The Devil
We Exist Infinitely
The Devil Ye Know
Convenient
Attention to Detail
Temporary]
Bridge
Falls
You're blocking the light
[Making Steady Progress
Put That Fire Out
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...69704#p1069704
Swords [Ace of Swords]
We have discussed
Dreamed Up By Yours Truly
Returning The Compliment
Astral Pulse
Getting Somewhere
Help
Intimation
Transactional
Examples
The Serpent
Reminding one of how it all started and the different stages one goes through.
Selfless Attitude
Intrinsicism
Nurture
The Solution
Creating Gateways Into Other Dimensions
"Peace! We are invited to the feast! Inside my heart delights at the action I must take Lest I forget the taming of the beast within lest I forget the heart that aches!"
Discovery is finding things that exist.
All is fair in love and war
Break Through to Your True Self
The Fare On The Table
Read On
Listen
Behind The Scenery
Confluent
Matrix]

William: From the link:
Quote:
Again - the discussion being had here shows me that beliefs to do with the age of the Universe are secondary in relevant importance to the fact of its existence and our existence within it.

Re: the OPQ: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

No more or less crazy than the notion of the Universe being a Holographic Experiential Reality Simulation produced and processed within the mind of The Father God - and furthermore, this idea does not go against The Script..
Quote:
The Ace of Swords shows a gleaming hand appearing from a white cloud, a representation of the Divine. It holds an upright sword, symbolic of the mind and the intellect, and at the tip of the sword sits a crown draped with a wreath, a sign of success and victory. While this Ace is a sign of triumph, the jagged mountains in the background suggest that the road ahead will be challenging. You will need mental resilience to navigate this path.
Intimation - an indication or hint. the action of making something known, especially in an indirect way.
Transactional - exchange or interaction between people.
Intrinsicism - the belief that value is a non-relational characteristic of an object.
Confluent - flowing together or merging.


[An individuals consciousness is more than what they are consciously aware of.
Theatre of the Mind
The Path Of Faith
Major Arcana [Moon]
Ask And It Will Be Given
Peace out!
Tests that cut to the heart
See-Through
Desire
The Deeper Self
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...072F7A7772C5E5
Think With The Heart Feel With The Mind]
Fine Line
The Divine
To Be Sovereignty
[All at sea
It is what it is
Map Carvers
How shallow is the reach of YHWH
How is it 'logical' to assume 'magic' when magic is the very thing which proposes something coming from nothing?
HumbleDreamer
What once acted like a Wall, became a Gateway
Measurements
https://forum.philosophynow.org/view...563888#p563888
Random coincidence? I think not.
Such a Mind can prove its existence to the individual
Respect others
Noticing Synchronicity]


William:
Quote:
The Moon card shows a full moon in the night’s sky, positioned between two large towers. The Moon is a symbol of intuition, dreams, and the unconscious. Its light is dim compared to the sun, and only slightly illuminates the path to higher consciousness winding between the two towers.

In the foreground is a small pool, representing the watery, subconscious mind. A small crayfish crawls out of the pool, symbolizing the early stages of consciousness unfolding. A dog and a wolf stand in the grassy field, howling at the moon, representing both the tamed and the wild aspects of our minds.
The 1st link is to a paper headed "Intelligence as a planetary scale process"
Quote:
In this paper, however, we wish to broaden the view of intelligence by taking a planetary view of its appearance and effect. Here, we consider the ways in which the appearance of technological intelligence may represent a kind of planetary scale transition. In this way, it might be seen not as something which happens on a planet but to a planet.
From the 2nd link;
Quote:
While there is truth to in your assessment here - something I also came to the conclusion of - if one doesn't factor in that the Christian idea of God is a false image of a Real Entity [I call 'It" the Cosmic Mind, but I have other names for it too.] then one loses the opportunity to do connect and converse...

What this allows me to achieve, is to connect with that Mind despite the false image Christianity [and religion in general] have superimposed upon it. This also insures that religion in general has no say in my communing with said Mind. Well they might try and have a say, but that is irrelevant and so does not work in their preventative measures re that.

Win/win re The Mind and Me.
Random coincidence? I think not.


[Making Things Easier
The Realm of The Knowing of My Self
Lucid
Soon
I am always open to being shown any evidence which supports that Idea]
*
You're blocking the light
Putting My Finger On It...
[Solving Mathematical Problems
The evidence is too strong, to believe there is no intelligent mind involved as part of the universes structure.
"The curating is done when I am taking my first baby steps and learning to say "dada" and "mama" and after uttering those sounds show - at least that I am able to do that - so the next level entry is made available to me, and I learn how to shape the sounds I can make, following codes which have been around since long before my own arrival on this planet, to what the data signifies, that is information I am interested in."
Delightful Anticipation
Stand up
Not by flinging woo at it.]


William: I understand people react through fear - and they have said such things as a result:
Quote:
this is total bollocks.
Quote:
In conclusion, then: this is all bollocks.
Quote:
just foolishness.
Quote:
Our brains can find meaning in anything.
Quote:
I don't understand the logic behind posting this gibberish.
Quote:
Why come here to look for validation of your brand of woo?
Quote:
This is just your own random version of pareidolia. The ONLY thing I, another random person, find fitting a pattern here is the undeserved hubris exhibited by every woo-hole I have encountered.
Quote:
I just tried it (several times) but every attempt is the same message:
"Don't believe William. He is a liar!"
Quote:
For the record, I too have no problem with anyone imagining they see messages from the universe in any random thing they like, up to and including the entrails of a freshly slaughtered goat.
The fear is related to the idea that a mind intricately involved in the universes ongoing formation, must - by nature - be "evil". As per a [GM] quote from the mind of Sir David Attenborough;

Quote:
“I don’t know [why we're here]. People sometimes say to me, ‘Why don’t you admit that the humming bird, the butterfly, the Bird of Paradise are proof of the wonderful things produced by Creation?’ And I always say, well, when you say that, you’ve also got to think of a little boy sitting on a river bank, like here, in West Africa, that’s got a little worm, a living organism, in his eye and boring through the eyeball and is slowly turning him blind. The Creator God that you believe in, presumably, also made that little worm. Now I personally find that difficult to accommodate…”
I think the problem is that up close - no matter that the object is seen as "wonderful things produced by Creation" or "horrific in nature" these are simply terminologies based upon false assumptions to do with concepts of 'good' and 'evil' and Sir David - like so many others, cannot bring himself to understand the connection of Mind and Matter without feeling abhorrence - and so he side-steps the conscious awareness of what his probing's into the affairs of Nature, by believing that Nature is simply an mindless accident - as this allows him the ability to accept it by his terms, rather than have to go any deeper and admit otherwise.
That is how folk protect themselves..."we are here in the house of horrors but temporarily - and thus, lets not go placing any 'unnecessary' connotations upon the experience..."
I wonder if Sir David could 'love' the planet half as much as he appears to, if not for the fact that he rejects the notion that the Planet is a living self aware purposeful intelligent creative entity...


[Something Mystical To Be In Awe Of
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...70222#p1070222
Episteme
It is more logical that something has always existed than nothing existed before something existed
Self-help]
Provincial Thinking
To Be Sovereignty
This Is My Kind Of Fun
[See-Through
Emergent Theory
So Far Into The Past You May As Well Take A Pick And Shovel With You
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...0902#p1070902]

William: From the 1st link:
Quote:
Then the claimant should be able to show the universe was created, without invoking some entity that's immune to the requirement of having been created itself.
Quote:
Why do you think that is even a logical request to be demanding? The 'claim' as far as this thread subject is addressing is more a simple logical observation. Something which came into existence, cannot have logically done so from nothing.
To believe that it did, is really where the special pleading is coming from.
Episteme - is a philosophical term that refers to a principled system of understanding; scientific knowledge.

From the 2nd link:
Quote:
From my own understanding [self awareness] what occurred was that humans forgot what they were [Spirit-breathed into biological matter] and identified only with the flesh-container and thought of themselves in that way - much like non-theists think of themselves as 'nothing more than chemical reactions of the brain'...or how some Christians think 'flesh that will be resurrected and given the ability to never die.'


Focused Individual
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=868
Quest
The sun
Putting My Finger On It...
Nature being the very instigator
Atman
Parchment
The path to enlightenment
One Day
The Dangers of Separating Human Consciousness From Any Idea of GOD
Big
The naked truth
In Human Form

William: The link is to a GM where I end with the words:
"Essentially the message has to do with Relationship - in this case my relationship with The Mother."

The "Mother" being the Planet Earth Entity Consciousness.


[A Purpose
Self Awareness
“The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing.”]
The Setting
This Is My Kind Of Fun
The Respect You Give
[Throat chakra
Shambala
Through the building up of the collected data to the point where it can be examined......is The Subject which is being taught, being said to be true or false...
Perpetually
Better The Devil You Know
Tell Your Story]

7:30
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There was I was where I ought - Examining my conscious thought ~ Navigator

Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 22nd March 2022, 04:58 PM   #72
Navigator
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
All of a sudden I feel like I'm 15 again...And trying to make sense of the lyrics to Yes' Tales From Topographic Oceans...
Search: "tales from topographic oceans lyrics"

Quote:
"As the silence of seasons on
We relive abridge sails afloat
As to call light the soul shall sing
Of the velvet sailors course on"
Achievable Alternate Realities
Is Love that hard to know?
Truth Without Proof Is Belief
Essentially we are Gaia in human form...

Quote:
Shine or moons send me memories trail
Over days of forgotten tales
Course the compass to offer
Into a time that we've all seen on
The more data compiled the more evidence seen
The vessel of argument sinks
Embrace a completely new paradigm
Sinks the Vessel of Argument

Quote:
High the memory carry on
While the moments start to linger
Sail away among your dreams
The strength regains us in between our time
Make It Up as You Go Along
Everything is an expression of GOD
Nothing more, nothing less.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all

Quote:
As we shall speak to differ also
The ends meet the river's son
So the ends meet the river's son
Just Be…All Else Will Follow
An Ancient Truthful Wisdom
Exhibit your innermost core

Quote:
Ours the story shall we carry on
And search the forest of the sun
We dream as we dream, dream as one
The more the merrier - as the saying goes.
I wanted to forge my own path
What things are unrelated?

Quote:
And I do think very well
That the son might take you silently
They move fast, they tell me
There's someone, rainbow, alternate tune
That Is The Equal Ground
To Which Rational Communion Is Birthed
Where do Thoughts Come From
If you say so…No. Even if I did not say so.

Quote:
In the days of summer so long
We danced as evening sang their song
We wander out the day so long
Think In Terms Of Eternity
Learn to trust the process
Tales From Topographic Oceans

[Abandon all hope ye who enter here]
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Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 22nd March 2022, 05:09 PM   #73
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The ciphers - as I explained - are representative of sounds and there are 26 distinct sounds in what we call the English language
Wrong. There are 26 letters in the phonetic alphabet for English. But several of these letters are redundant. Meanwhile phoneticists recognize many more than 26 distinct sounds in English.
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Old 22nd March 2022, 09:31 PM   #74
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
All of a sudden I feel like I'm 15 again...And trying to make sense of the lyrics to Yes' Tales From Topographic Oceans...
It always seemed to me that Jon Anderson was using his voice purely as a musical instrument; the actual words didn't matter, just that they made the right kind of sound. But of course meaning can always be found if you're determined to find it.
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Old 23rd March 2022, 01:39 AM   #75
Susheel
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong. There are 26 letters in the phonetic alphabet for English. But several of these letters are redundant. Meanwhile phoneticists recognize many more than 26 distinct sounds in English.
No, The 26 letters form the orthographic alphabet. There are 44 distinct phonetic sounds represented by 44 distinct phonetic symbols.
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Old 23rd March 2022, 02:33 AM   #76
Darat
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It always seemed to me that Jon Anderson was using his voice purely as a musical instrument; the actual words didn't matter, just that they made the right kind of sound. But of course meaning can always be found if you're determined to find it.
I'd rephrase your last sentence to be: But of course meaning can always be found imposed if you're determined to find it
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Old 23rd March 2022, 04:05 AM   #77
Carrot Flower King
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It always seemed to me that Jon Anderson was using his voice purely as a musical instrument; the actual words didn't matter, just that they made the right kind of sound. But of course meaning can always be found if you're determined to find it.
Quite so: I always listened to Yes with the voice as another instrument. Didn't stop us trying to work out what the buggery bollocks was going on when we were bored during wet school lunchtimes and couldn't play footy.

And then we'd start trying to make sense of The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway...
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Old 23rd March 2022, 11:18 AM   #78
Navigator
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240322
One Whom Ought Be Inwardly Known
To establish the skills necessary

SCLx12+last LE per shuffle

Snap Out Of It Already! - Noise From The Peanut Gallery - Eternal Watcher - This Speaks of… - Your House Work - http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=918 - God's Love Direction - Friction - Lyricus designs, transposes, and installs galactic Tributary Zones to a planetary system - The Way of the Shaman - That'll Be The Day - Reason Together


SCL1 AP = In relation to eternity, 'when' is always a potential.
[~]
SCL2 AP = Telling the future
For The Purpose Of
Precognitive dreams
Intimate connection
The waters of the deep


RSP = Search SCL1 AP in SCL2 select P&P + Related line entries [re]

5:54
[The Freedom Of Friendship
Sharing Your Love Without Comparison
Necessity is The Mother of Invention
Heart advice
Expression
~MoonageDaydream~
The Underlying Mechanics]
Looking For Gigs
In relation to eternity, 'when' is always a potential.
Preparation
[Nihilism
Vagitus
A Sense of Hope
Conspicuous
Intransigence
Bonding
Preparing for the Hunt]


William: Vagitus - a new-born baby's first cry. the crying or screaming of any baby or small child.
Conspicuous - clearly visible. attracting notice or attention.
Intransigence - refusal to change one's views or to agree about something.

[Training the mind
It isn't important who is who - what is important is what comes through.]
Inappropriate Costume
Telling the future
Creating Gateways Into Other Dimensions
[Nature of Angels
Known/Revealed
Light
Restrained
Unknown Symbol
Talking the talk
Author
Putting The Pieces Together
If we can remove the stigma of our situation by not judging it either 'good' or 'evil' perhaps we can learn to be happy with being human
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...67058#p1067058
A riddle wrapped up in an enigma
Attention
Who Knows What That Is Worth?]


William: From The Link:
Quote:
So if you don't know what morality is, how is it you place expectation on any being who can teach it to you, to the point you are willing to worship said being?

Even that neither of us appear to be clear or agree with what worshiping something actual means/consists of re action.

My own relationship forming with the Cosmic Mind involves setting up ways of communicating and allowing it opportunity to speak for itself.
In that, I have learned to avoid bringing into that relationship pre-conceived/learned ideals/ideas of 'what morality is' and do not base my expectations and personal commitment on moral issues, but on intelligent loving communion and results therein.
Joyful
Preparation
Communication Techniques

[Perpetually]
Friendship
Creating Gateways Into Other Dimensions
Enjoy Progress
[It is a Product of Fragmentation
Creativity
Trust The Process
Do you believe astrology works
Recipe
https://debatingchristianity.com/for...70605#p1070605
Noetics]


William: From the link;
Quote:
I'm using it to point out that imaginative thinking is more respectable than you give it credit for being.
Quote:
I agree. We are essentially minds within/experiencing matter. Many folk appear to be quite afraid of imagination. There may be many reasons for why that is, but one legitimate reason is that when imagination is used inappropriately, harm is - not always - but often the result. So one must be careful how one uses imagination, but not so afraid of it as to think disrespectfully of its usefulness at all.
I would suppose that there is something to astrology but I have not studied it.

In philosophy, noetics is a branch of metaphysics concerned with the study of mind as well as intellect.

[Everything
Liminal
According
Real Beauty
Emotional awareness]
Observed
Communication Techniques
Mind Body Spirit
[Act With The Situation Rather Than Against It
Densification
It Is Only Occult If It Is Hidden]


William: Liminal - relating to a transitional or initial stage of a process. occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.


[The Butterfly Effect
Science]
Influence
Enjoy Progress
Yogi
[Aeon
Throat chakra
Self-realization
Psychic powers
Is it not the quality of the message that counts, rather than the name of the entity the message comes from?
Discussion of anything to do with the 'why' questions of life
Beckoning
Yes, I Hear You
The fire from within]


William: Aeon - an indefinite and very long period of time.
Yogi - a person who is proficient in yoga.
Throat chakra - is the center of communication, emotion, and creativity. It affects your ability to be honest and express your thoughts. When your throat chakra is imbalanced or blocked, it can be difficult for energy to flow in the area.
Psychic powers - strange mental powers and abilities (such as the ability to predict the future, to know what other people are thinking, or to receive messages from dead people)

[Very comfortable in your own skin]
Like I Said In Another Thread
Mind Body Spirit
We shape our opinions and morals through understanding that we are here for that reason.
[Tales From Topographic Oceans
Love - Communicate Love
Innocent Sovereign
Musing On The Mother Act I]


William: Someone mentioned Tales From Topographic Oceans just yesterday... said that the GMs reminded them of trying to make sense of the lyrics to Yes' Tales From Topographic Oceans...

We wander out the day so long...Abandon all hope ye who enter here

[Appreciating You
Tell Your Story]
That Is The Equal Ground To Which Rational Communion Is Birthed
Yogi
Majestic Twelve
[Nature of Angels
When The Opportunity Presents Itself To Do So...
Universal Intelligence Communications Device
The Factor of Integrity and Alignment
Grounding
Imagination
Even As An Elemental Principle
youtube.com/watch?v=kJRVeg5LgyE&list=PLA20C1610635E8457
Self-Aware
Idealist
“Spread love everywhere you go. Let no one ever come to you without leaving happier.”
Pot of Gold]


William: The link leads to a video about so-called OOBEs - The Spiritual Essence - non-form-based consciousness...we do not really leave our bodies so much as experience the inner universe of the Self...

[Unexplained Light Source]
Howdy!
We shape our opinions and morals through understanding that we are here for that reason.
Memorandum of Understanding
[Tricky
Clear
Opens eyes after having thought about it
Love Heart
On The Other Hand...
This is how The Mind works...]

[A programmed reality that is not real
In Detail
Eisegeting
The Father - in The Mother.]
Shift Focus
Majestic Twelve
Criticise With Kindness
[Given
Deeper Questions Regarding Individual Existence
To
Unity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter
Things Will Run There Course
Root of evil
Individual Actions
The Human Instrument
Like mindful nests with eggs in 'em
Stuff Happens
Worthiness
No point in giving you too much to bear
Validation
The Big Question
If we Judge, we will be Judged.
Breathe In Breathe Out
The Harmless Enough Agenda Crowd
I AM WE ARE]



William: Eisegeting place meaning on a text which is not originally or inherently present in the text ...

William: From the link;

Quote:
The right star system (including organics and potentially habitable planets)
Reproductive molecules (e.g. RNA)
Simple (prokaryotic) single-cell life
Complex (eukaryotic) single-cell life
Sexual reproduction
Multi-cell life
Tool-using animals with intelligence
A civilization advancing toward the potential for a colonization explosion (where we are now)
Colonization explosion

According to the Great Filter hypothesis, at least one of these steps—if the list were complete—must be improbable. If it is not an early step (i.e., in our past), then the implication is that the improbable step lies in our future and our prospects of reaching step 9 (interstellar colonization) are still bleak

William: Telling the future - based upon understanding the past...but do we really understand the past...


[Be here now
Nature being the very instigator]
Stay
Criticise With Kindness
Awakening

[Aye...A name I call myself.
Truth Without Proof Is Belief]
Ignore the Noise From The Peanut Gallery
Awakening
We succeed as a permanent specie or we fail as a temporary one
[No More
Embrace the discomfort
Leave the door open
Tests that cut to the heart
See-Through
QueenBee
Sacral chakra
The Underlying Mechanics
The Watcher
The Shifting Models of Existence
The Angel of the Lord
Be Nice Do Nice
A projection of one’s subconscious
As You Think
Love Takes One For The Team
Although there are opposite sides to spectra, all elements combined form a whole
Raises Glass To A Toast]


William: Cheers!
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Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 23rd March 2022, 01:24 PM   #79
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Thread split from Ideomotor Effect and the Subconscious. thread, today.
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Atheism is not skepticism

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Old 23rd March 2022, 02:04 PM   #80
Myriad
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The system I am using is focused upon the idea that if the universe is non-random and mindful, one should be able to develop a system whereby, the mind should be able to use for the purpose of communicating.

I am non-random and mindful (at least, some of the time) but if an amoeba in my GI tract tried to gain insight into the nature of reality or the expected course of events by monitoring the moment-to-moment variations of my pulse rate, they are not communicating with me nor receiving any communication (coherent information) from me.

Quote:
There was no guarantee that the system I developed and use, would have worked, but it does work and that it works is one more piece of evidence to support the idea that the universe is mindful.

You are in essence claiming that you are receiving a signal in addition to (or instead of) noise from your process, with the information theory meanings of "signal" and "noise." To make that claim convincingly, you have to clearly define the characteristics of signal and how it is distinguished from noise.

That you claim to derive insight or other personal benefit from the process is not evidence for signal, unless you can show that people do not gain insight or other personal benefit from paying attention to noise.

Quote:
Keep it simple. Use the language you are most familiar with [for me that is English] and go with that.

The amoeba in my intestine cannot communicate with me, nor vice versa, with the amoeba language it's familiar with, because even though I'm non-random and mindful, I don't know or speak amoeba language.

Quote:
I am not attempting to divine anything. I am allowing the system to generate messages using as random a process as I can, so that my influence on the outcome is as small a footprint as possible.

Divination is still the generally accepted term for what you're doing here, regardless of the purpose. (Some divination is for predicting the future, but it's still divination if used for e.g. spiritual insight.)

Quote:
It is not so much 'counting' on coherent messages being generated [CGMs] - because it happens every time it is done.

But the "it" that happens every time could just be (and most likely is) the mental effects of the exercise of meditating upon echoed noise. "It" isn't convincing evidence of a signal.

Quote:
The universe does have an underlying order - this system simply taps into that reality and that is why it produces CGMs.

The evidence of order can be observed in the events unfolding re universe, and the Earth itself has myriad of evidence to support that understanding.

Fortunately nowadays we don't requires such method in order to understand what others say when they speak in a different language-set.

Even when that was not so much the case, we didn't need to resort to such fanciful experimentation in order to find out.

We worked with what was [sound] and no doubt also with action...The one say's "Ahi" while pointing to the campfire and we can interpret that the one is meaning 'fire' ... it is that simple, and for good reason.

What you are suggesting is a complexity which assumes [rightfully enough] that the evidence of mindfulness should be within everything. However, your example assumes that we can overreach our human capability in order to find it.

The system I am using stays within the parameters of the human experience. For all we know, the stars we observe in the night sky are a written form of language, proclaiming clearly a generated message from the Universal Mind...but if we do not have the ability to recognize it as any language, we will not even think to decipher it.

Clearly we have enough to work with here on this Planet, which can help us understand that there is actually meaningful communication to be had with the Mind involved in the process of evolving life-forms - humans [and human language] included - even if the system used is simple [primitive]. We use what is available.

I'm in a minority of one on these forums, in that I actually do believe that earth's biosphere is an intelligence of sorts, and its creative processes (thoughts) are evolution itself. (That is to say, it doesn't "control" evolution, any more than you control which ions move between which synapses in your own brain. Evolution is how it works.) But just because it evolved humans who evolved English doesn't mean it speaks or understands English. Your fingernails grow from you and are part of you, but do you await questions from your fingernails and answer them in fingernail-language?
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