IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

Reply
Old 29th August 2022, 02:06 PM   #361
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.
I don't understand why anyone in Europe would not want a subjugated Russia. If the Russian military collapses, the dream of a Eurasia not under Russian threat of invasion will be a reality. With only nukes, they'll retreat to where they belong, behind their own borders. Demand for oil and gas will decline as green hydrogen supplies improve and Europe transitions away from petrol for transport. All this with will mean a Russia crippled both economically and militarily and that's a win for the world.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2022, 09:19 PM   #362
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,317
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.
I see no reason to take Michael H's opinions at face value given how disingenuous they are and often fly in the face of clear facts and reason. I am thoroughly convinced based on how his arguments do not evolve with new information, that he is here to promote a point of view useful to Russian interests, regardless of accuracy, and that is it.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2022, 02:02 AM   #363
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 27,442
Here's a bingo card.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...-v-the-people/

Quote:
A defining feature of pro-Kremlin disinformation is its repetitiveness. For all the outrageous claims they make, pro-Kremlin outlets often sound like a broken record sticking to a just a handful of basic messages for domestic and international audiences. This is not by accident or oversight, it is by design: repetition makes lies sound more believable. Pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets achieve this by sticking to a set of recurring narratives that work as templates for particular stories.
JULY 28, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 1: THE ELITES V THE PEOPLE

Quote:
Smorgasbord of scapegoats
This narrative can be very successful, as it provides a scapegoat for the target audience to blame for any grievances: bankers, Big Corporations, Jews, oligarchs, Muslims, Brussels bureaucrats, you name it. Russian disinformation outlets heavily exploited this narrative throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, notoriously alleging that Bill Gates either invented the coronavirus, or was using vaccines against it to implant “microchips”.
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...atened-values/

AUGUST 06, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 2: THE ‘THREATENED VALUES’

Quote:
Narrative number 2: the ‘Threatened Values’

The narrative about ‘Threatened Values’ is adapted to a wide range of topics and typically used to challenge Western attitudes about the rights of women, ethnic and religious minorities, and LGBTQI+ groups, among others. Pro-Kremlin commentators ridicule alleged Western ‘moral decay’ or ‘depraved attitudes’. By contrast, Russia and Orthodox Christianity stand out as the true defenders of traditional values, as by this official Russian promotional video(opens in a new tab) illustrates.
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...t-sovereignty/

AUGUST 13, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 3: ‘LOST SOVEREIGNTY’

Quote:
Narrative number 3: ‘Lost Sovereignty’
Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation sources like to claim that certain countries are no longer truly sovereign. Back in 2015, a cartoonist for the Russian state news agency RIA Novosti illustrated this idea with an imageopens in a new tab) Uncle Sam is turning up the flame on a gas stove, forcing Europeans to jump up and down while crying for sanctions against Russia.

Since then, there have been many more examples of this narrative proliferating in pro-Kremlin outlets: for example, Ukraine is ruled by foreigners and the Baltic states are not really countries. Pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets also claim that with their accession to NATO, Finland and Sweden are now about to lose their sovereignty and that they are acting under foreign (US, NATO) pressure. Further examples for this narrative abound: the EU is directed by Washington, Japan is a vassal state, Germany is an occupied territory, decisions in Ukraine aren’t made by its president but by the US, and so on.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...nent-collapse/

AUGUST 21, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN
DISINFORMATION PART 4: THE
IMMINENT COLLAPSE'

Quote:
Narrative number 4: ‘The Imminent Collapse’
In Aristotelian rhetoric, the concept of kairos denotes a sense of urgency for action. Most speakers utilise this concept when they claim: act now, before it’s too late! In the pro-Kremlin disinformation context, the narrative of the ‘Imminent Collapse’ fulfils this function.

Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets regularly employ this narrative. Examples include: the EU is on the verge of collapse, the US is collapsing, NATO is breaking down, Ukraine’s entry into the EU would provoke the bloc’s collapse, and the financial system is collapsing.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...the-hahaganda/

AUGUST 26, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 5: ‘THE HAHAGANDA’

Quote:


Narrative number 5: ‘The Hahaganda’
A final resort in disinformation, typically when confronted with compelling evidence or unassailable arguments, is to make a joke about the subject, or to ridicule the topic at hand.

The Skripal poisoning case is an excellent example of this strategy. Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets have continued their attempts to drown out the assassination attempt with sarcasm to turn the entire tragedy into one big joke. A similar approach has been employed in the case of the attempted assassination of Alexei Navalny, where pro-Kremlin media has competed on delivering “fun” stories on how to better kill the Russian dissident.

More details in each section.

I have seen most of these in this forum.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2022, 02:09 AM   #364
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,624
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Here's a bingo card.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...-v-the-people/



JULY 28, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 1: THE ELITES V THE PEOPLE



https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...atened-values/

AUGUST 06, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 2: THE ‘THREATENED VALUES’



https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...t-sovereignty/

AUGUST 13, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 3: ‘LOST SOVEREIGNTY’




https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...nent-collapse/

AUGUST 21, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN
DISINFORMATION PART 4: THE
IMMINENT COLLAPSE'




https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...the-hahaganda/

AUGUST 26, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 5: ‘THE HAHAGANDA’




More details in each section.

I have seen most of these in this forum.


can we Sticky this to the top of the Non-USA & General Politics forum?
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2022, 05:34 AM   #365
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
One problem about a possible independence of Iraqi Kurdistan (from what I understand) is that Iraqi Kurdistan has a lot of oil, while Iraq is very poor, courtesy of U.S. invasion. There is also some concern about local minorities (Arab minorities, in particular).
Crimea has a lot of natural gas fields and some oil fields. Since the illegal annexation by Russia we have seen their authorities crack down on local minorities such as the Crimean Tatars, something that has spread to recently occupied parts of Ukraine.

At this point you're just grasping at straws in order to justify why what's happening in Ukraine is different to other parts of the world.

Quote:
I don't think that independence should be granted automatically after a referendum approving it (context does matter).
And yet that's exactly what you suggest with Crimea and the Donbass.

Quote:
It should be more a last resort, people should first try to get along, to cooperate. There is always a danger that rich regions want to take their independence, while poor regions are left alone, facing even greater poverty.
The Donbass region produced nearly 1/7th of the GDP of Ukraine and 25% of the country's exports. That region is rich in raw materials such as gases like Neon, and extremely high quality lithium. The industrialisation of that region and the wealth that's present there is quite literally what you're describing.

Quote:
In addition, there has been some collaboration between Iraqi Kurds and the central government of Iraq to fight the Islamic State. The relations may therefore not be as bad as in Ukraine, when a civil war has been taking place since 2014.
After the referendum the Iraqi Government launched an offensive to take control of lands they abandoned to IS that was subsequently recaptured and held by the Kurds. The only way that this is better is than Ukraine is that the fighting between the two groups in Iraq broke out after the referendum, not before.

Quote:
I don't see any benefit in restoring Ukrainian sovereignty on Crimea (though one can say that there is some geographical logic in this)
Also because it's legally Ukrainian.

Quote:
...they speak a different language...
They speak different languages in many parts of Russia as well, does that mean those places can unilaterally declare independence?

Quote:
...Ukraine has a history of trying to impose its own language...
And Russia has an even longer history of doing so. I know this part is actually about Crimea, but have you ever stopped to wonder why the separatist regions of the Donbass have populations that have a majority of ethnic Ukrainians who are Russophones?

Quote:
...the referendum has shown strong support for joining Russia...
And the other referendums I mentioned showed strong support for leaving their respective countries. However you don't see those as valid.

Quote:
Crimea is by no means essential for the Ukrainian economy...
And it isn't essential for the Russian economy either. Which means it's completely irrelevant as a point.

Quote:
...they are now fighting a very violent war...
Which Russia started.

Quote:
Ukraine has imposed a number of "sanctions"...
Because of what Russia did.

Quote:
...cutting off for example the supply of fresh water through the North Crimean canal in 2014. How can you like a government which suddenly cuts off 85% of your fresh water, for political reasons, because it cannot stand that you leave?
How can you like a government that doesn't pay for the water they use? If you accept that Crimea should belong to Russia then why is it that you are expecting Ukraine to give Crimea their water for free?

And that's ignoring the fact that nearly all of the water that the canal brought to Crimea was used for economic purposes and not human consumption.

Quote:
In addition, Crimea has a history of being part of Russia for a long time.
And that applies to quite a bit of Eastern Europe. Does that mean that all those places don't have the right to their own territorial integrity (or even existence) because it was once part of Russia?

Quote:
In addition, the decision to join Russia could always be reversed later,
Could it? How?

Quote:
...we don't know what will happen in a century. It is possible that, in a few years' time, Crimeans will get weary of the lack of democracy in Russia, and of the dubious actions of its "security services", and will want to become closer to Western Europe.
Because that will totally happen. Just like how Chechnya is currently an independent country in the world and absolutely not a Federal Subject of the Russian Federation.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2022, 07:05 AM   #366
jeremyp
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I believe there is a fairly obvious analogy between the UK trying to rescue Poland in 1939, and the UK trying to rescue Ukraine this year.

I also believe that, instead of providing a lot of weapons and money to Ukraine, which makes this country feel overconfident, and reject any reasonable compromise, the West should instead force Ukraine to renounce the parts of Ukraine which don't want to be Ukrainian.

This should lead to a quick peace, and alleviate economic suffering caused by high energy bills.
What about the other analogy to the Munich Agreement of 1938? The UK and others agreed to let Germany have bits of Czechoslovakia as long as Germany didn't invade any further.

Where it went wrong was in that the leadership of Germany turned out to be totally untrustworthy and ignored the agreement. Thus we had WW2.

Do you not understand? The current leadership of Russia cannot be trusted. They are a bunch of liars and crooks. They have no respect for international treaties.

Whatever agreement ends the Ukraine war, there is a pretty good chance that Russia will eventually rip it up and invade again, unless the terms or circumstances make it hard to do so. That means either the Red Army needs to be utterly destroyed or that Ukraine joins NATO. There is no other way to stop Russian aggression.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2022, 11:16 AM   #367
Prometheus
Acolyte of Víðarr
 
Prometheus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 50,451
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
can we Sticky this to the top of the Non-USA & General Politics forum?
Why?
__________________
As Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy."
"I find your lack of pith disturbing," - Darth Rotor
..........
Don't be offended. I'm not calling you a serial killer. -- Ron Tomkins.
Prometheus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2022, 02:24 AM   #368
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.

.
If the stupid ***** had stayed in their borders there wouldn't have been sanctions. There was democracy in both Donbas and Crimea until the Russian invasion and occupation of Ukrainian soil. There have never been referendums to leave Ukraine or join Russia in either place.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2022, 03:24 AM   #369
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,707
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
What about the other analogy to the Munich Agreement of 1938? The UK and others agreed to let Germany have bits of Czechoslovakia as long as Germany didn't invade any further.



Where it went wrong was in that the leadership of Germany turned out to be totally untrustworthy and ignored the agreement. Thus we had WW2. .
Exactly. The analogy is not with Germany (and the USSR) invading Poland, it's with Germany invading Czechoslovakia. They didn't demand the whole country. They only wanted to liberate the pro-German people near the border with Germany. And then they were going to stop. It was their last demand.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 07:34 AM   #370
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,085
In the current Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv, there is a ton of video of people coming out of their houses and bomb shelters to welcome the Ukrainian troops.

Russian-speaking people. Welcoming Ukrainian troops, because the people in that oblast support Ukraine, regardless of which language those people actually speak.

Because in Ukraine, speaking Russian does not in anyway indicate that people support Russia. Russian speaking people don't necessarily want to be part of Russia.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2022, 08:04 AM   #371
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Exactly. The analogy is not with Germany (and the USSR) invading Poland, it's with Germany invading Czechoslovakia. They didn't demand the whole country. They only wanted to liberate the pro-German people near the border with Germany. And then they were going to stop. It was their last demand.
It's funny how closely Putin seems to be mirroring Hitler's early playbook. First there was an annexation by an army that wasn't actually up to the task, but nobody was prepared and so the invaders got away with it. Now it's the partial annexation and we'll stop here, we promise.

Next would be the invasion of "Poland", and open war with Europe. Only, it seems that some people at least have learned those lessons, and are working hard to stop Putin wile he's still working on "Czechoslovakia".
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 01:17 PM   #372
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,301
The Putin Propaganda machine is not handling the rout of the Russian army in Northeast Ukraine very well.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 06:44 PM   #373
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,925
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Putin Propaganda machine is not handling the rout of the Russian army in Northeast Ukraine very well.
There do seem be be a few who have some questions on Russian TV as to how things are progressing:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2022, 07:09 PM   #374
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
There do seem be be a few who have some questions on Russian TV as to how things are progressing:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
It is a bit telling that it's actually pointed out (only barely indirectly) that promising to commit genocide against a population that you're attacking is a very bad idea... and a war hawk just basically goes, "We need to win this war. If they want to talk about their concerns about being the subject of genocide, they can talk about it after we've won." Yeah, like you'd care about what they think then, with that attitude.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 11th September 2022 at 07:17 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2022, 12:04 AM   #375
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,093
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
There do seem be be a few who have some questions on Russian TV as to how things are progressing:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Wow!!
The only thing they still agree on is that the "nazi" regime must be destroyed.
How long before they realize that nazi regime resides in Moskow, not Kyiv? That they are the nazis right there in that TV studio?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2022, 01:21 AM   #376
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Wow!!
The only thing they still agree on is that the "nazi" regime must be destroyed.
How long before they realize that nazi regime resides in Moskow, not Kyiv? That they are the nazis right there in that TV studio?
When they're almost certainly using an alternative definition of Nazi that comes down to NOT being a white Russian supremacist (a redefinition fostered for nigh the entire time since WW2, IIUC)? I wouldn't hold your breath.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 12th September 2022 at 01:23 AM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2022, 05:41 AM   #377
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,317
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
When they're almost certainly using an alternative definition of Nazi that comes down to NOT being a white Russian supremacist (a redefinition fostered for nigh the entire time since WW2, IIUC)? I wouldn't hold your breath.
Think about how most people roll their eyes and skip over when someone argues "You know who the REAL Nazis are?" I think many Russians may be conditioned to have that reaction even though it's flipped on its head in this case to make them disregard actual Nazis.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2022, 01:33 PM   #378
Olmstead
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,233
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny how closely Putin seems to be mirroring Hitler's early playbook. First there was an annexation by an army that wasn't actually up to the task, but nobody was prepared and so the invaders got away with it. Now it's the partial annexation and we'll stop here, we promise.

Next would be the invasion of "Poland", and open war with Europe. Only, it seems that some people at least have learned those lessons, and are working hard to stop Putin wile he's still working on "Czechoslovakia".
An important difference is also that Germany was an actual threat to the rest of Europe. No idea how things would've turned out if the same was true for Russia.
Olmstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2022, 11:09 PM   #379
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,931
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Wow!!
The only thing they still agree on is that the "nazi" regime must be destroyed.
How long before they realize that nazi regime resides in Moskow, not Kyiv? That they are the nazis right there in that TV studio?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
? > !
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 06:43 AM   #380
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,562
Russia may be gearing up to intensify it's attacks on civilians.

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...t-september-13

Quote:
Kremlin-controlled and Kremlin-influenced media are now openly calling for an intensive missile campaign against Ukrainian civilian critical infrastructure and transit routes, an idea with broad support among many milbloggers.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 11:00 AM   #381
Olmstead
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,233
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I mean ...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Olmstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 11:04 AM   #382
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 47,307
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Russia may be gearing up to intensify it's attacks on civilians.

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...t-september-13
So they're just going to openly admit they're doing it rather than denying it's them?
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 06:02 PM   #383
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,085
The Russian bots and tankies and such are now really pushing the line that Ukraine is now terrorizing Russians around Belgorod. In this example they claim Ukraine bombed and orphanage.

Aleksei Ostrovsky on Twitter
Quote:
College in #Perevalsk hit by #Ukraine artillery where orphans were also living
Here's another claiming damage to residential neighborhoods in Belgorod.

That's be the new thing to justify continuation of bomb and missile attacks. And sadly, they can keep ginning up that sort of crap justification forever - years, decades.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 08:27 PM   #384
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
So they're just going to openly admit they're doing it rather than denying it's them?
The BBC explains now:
Quote:
Russia's military had earlier admitted hitting energy-generating targets that caused widespread blackouts affecting millions of people in eastern Ukraine last weekend.
and also:
Quote:
Residents in a southern Ukrainian city are being urged to evacuate because of a risk of flooding, after missiles hit a major reservoir dam.
...
Ukraine said the strike was revenge by Russia for its recent counter-attack.
(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910245).

So it seems that Russia, facing difficulties on the battlefield, is striking more and more civilian targets, and is beginning to admit it.

This is a dangerous development for Ukraine. My modest advice to Ukraine would be to stop their radical policies, and make some serious concessions (as I have said before: neutrality, Crimea belongs to Russia, the Donbass republics are independent, no more sanctions).

From the same article:
Quote:
Water supplies have been affected by the attack, officials say - and about 600,000 people are now at risk of flooding in the centre and another district of the city, according to Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of the president's office.
This seems very scary to me.

When are the Ukrainians going to open themselves to human intelligence?

Are they waiting for the total destruction of their country?

By the way, Zelensky was also involved in a car accident: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910236 .

Apparently, insulting Russians all day long doesn't protect from car accidents. I am really surprised .

Last edited by Michel H; 14th September 2022 at 08:45 PM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 08:40 PM   #385
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,501
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
My modest advice to Ukraine would be to stop their radical policies, and make some serious concessions
We now know that Ukraine offered to make serious concessions before the murderous criminals led by Putin decided to invade anyway. Your 'modest' advice is akin to saying, "You should let the rabid dog bite one of your legs off, then see if that's enough for it not to want any more."

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 08:40 PM   #386
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,931
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is a dangerous development for Ukraine. My modest advice to Ukraine would be to stop their radical policies, and make some serious concessions (as I have said before: neutrality, Crimea belongs to Russia, the Donbass republics are independent, no more sanctions).
Again, this amounts to capitulating to all of Russia's demands. **** that.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
By the way, Zelensky was also involved in a car accident: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910236 .

Apparently, insulting Russians all day long doesn't protect from car accidents. I am really surprised
A minor bingle that caused no injury.
__________________
? > !
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 08:43 PM   #387
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
I was wondering when you'd show up again Michel H

I think what I like about it is how you minimise Russian war crimes and somehow still blame the Ukrainians for them.
__________________

Last edited by Wildy; 14th September 2022 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Added name because of other people posting quicker than me.
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 08:57 PM   #388
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
We now know that Ukraine offered to make serious concessions before the murderous criminals led by Putin decided to invade anyway. Your 'modest' advice is akin to saying, "You should let the rabid dog bite one of your legs off, then see if that's enough for it not to want any more."

Dave
Well, rabid dog or not (my goal here is certainly not to deliver constant praise for the Russians), my advice for Ukraine (see first replies of https://twitter.com/ZelenskaUA/statu...82927703728129) is certainly not to tell them "Guys, let the monster devour you!". It is, rather, an invitation to take the right steps to protect themselves (and others), and stop this fighting.

Sometimes, being humble, admitting one's mistakes requires far more courage for some people that going to battle.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:17 PM   #389
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,461
If the monster attacking is trying to devour you, how are you to stop the fighting without either driving off the monster, or being eaten?
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:18 PM   #390
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
Because everything is Ukraine's fault. Ukraine has to humble itself to Russia and accept that it can only engage with the rest of the world as a vassal of Russia, not a free and independent nation.

You view bowing to the tyrant as a courageous act even when doing so will result in your death.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:29 PM   #391
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
If the monster attacking is trying to devour you, how are you to stop the fighting without either driving off the monster, or being eaten?
It's very simple (in my opinion): neutrality + Crimea belongs to Russia + the Donbass republics are independent + no more sanctions.

Then I think they might be able to get a good Russian withdrawal, Russian gas and oil, peace and economic prosperity ...

Last edited by Michel H; 14th September 2022 at 09:32 PM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:31 PM   #392
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Because everything is Ukraine's fault. Ukraine has to humble itself to Russia and accept that it can only engage with the rest of the world as a vassal of Russia, not a free and independent nation.

You view bowing to the tyrant as a courageous act even when doing so will result in your death.
I see no reason why Ukraine should become a vassal of Russia. It can be just neutral and independent.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:34 PM   #393
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Sometimes, being humble, admitting one's mistakes requires far more courage for some people that going to battle.
I agree, that's exactly what Putin's Russia needs to do, along with surrendering to Zelenskyy and pulling every soldier/child rapist out of Ukraine (including all disputed territories) so the killing can stop. Now- how do you plan on making that happen?
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:41 PM   #394
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Well, rabid dog or not (my goal here is certainly not to deliver constant praise for the Russians), my advice for Ukraine (see first replies of https://twitter.com/ZelenskaUA/statu...82927703728129) is certainly not to tell them "Guys, let the monster devour you!". It is, rather, an invitation to take the right steps to protect themselves (and others), and stop this fighting.

Sometimes, being humble, admitting one's mistakes requires far more courage for some people that going to battle.
Sure. And sometimes, being humble and "admitting one's mistakes" just earns a bullet to the head, regardless of whether courage or cowardice is driving the action.

Cowardice is all I'm seeing in your recommendation, not courage.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 09:53 PM   #395
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,624
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It's very simple (in my opinion): neutrality + Crimea belongs to Russia + the Donbass republics are independent + no more sanctions.

Then I think they might be able to get a good Russian withdrawal, Russian gas and oil, peace and economic prosperity ...

That was the status quo BEFORE Russia invaded.

What makes you think that Russia would be okay with that, given that they started a war with the explicit aim of regime change in Kyiv into something pro-Russian?

If Russia just wanted what you think Ukraine should offer, they wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
But this attack was always about Russia taking control of Ukraine, nothing less.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 14th September 2022 at 09:55 PM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 10:14 PM   #396
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,931
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It's very simple (in my opinion): neutrality + Crimea belongs to Russia + the Donbass republics are independent + no more sanctions.
Are you going to give Putin your lunch money as well?
__________________
? > !
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 11:20 PM   #397
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 35,163
I have a feeling that many people in the occupied areas of Ukraine who have seen their sons, brothers, father's and friends forcibly conscripted and sent to the front poorly trained and equipped to be cannon fodder may have changed any previously positive opinions they have about mother Russia.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2022, 11:20 PM   #398
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 27,442
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Because everything is Ukraine's fault. Ukraine has to humble itself to Russia and accept that it can only engage with the rest of the world as a vassal of Russia, not a free and independent nation.

You view bowing to the tyrant as a courageous act even when doing so will result in your death.
And that would not be enough.

I'll just leave this translation of Zelensky's speech here.



Quote:
Do you still think we are one people? Do you still think you can scare us, break us, force us to make concessions? Don't you really get it? Don't you understand who we are? What we stand for? What we are all about?

Read my lips: Without gas or without you? Without you. Without light or without you? Without you. Without water or without you. Without you. Without food or without you? Without you.

Cold, hunger, darkness and thirst are not as frightening and deadly for us as your friendship and brotherhood. But history will put everything in its place. And we will be with gas, light, water and food...and WITHOUT you!"
Putin no longer wants a vassal, he wants the idea of a Ukrainian identity and culture to be erased.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2022, 12:25 AM   #399
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The BBC explains now:

and also:

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910245).

So it seems that Russia, facing difficulties on the battlefield, is striking more and more civilian targets, and is beginning to admit it.

This is a dangerous development for Ukraine. My modest advice to Ukraine would be to stop their radical policies, and make some serious concessions (as I have said before: neutrality, Crimea belongs to Russia, the Donbass republics are independent, no more sanctions).

From the same article:

This seems very scary to me.

When are the Ukrainians going to open themselves to human intelligence?

Are they waiting for the total destruction of their country?

By the way, Zelensky was also involved in a car accident: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910236 .

Apparently, insulting Russians all day long doesn't protect from car accidents. I am really surprised .
It's not Ukraine that needs to change. They just need to keep killing Russians. The more Russians they kill they more danger they put Putin in. Every dead Russian bring Putin closer to assassination or at least being deposed.

Most of the power has been restored. We can steal Russia's money in US and European banks to pay to rebuild Ukraine. They Orcs have nearly a Trillion dollars parked overseas in fiat currencies that we cant take and give to Ukraine to rebuild. I've read several legal papers that suggest ways to make it all legal.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2022, 12:28 AM   #400
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It's very simple (in my opinion): neutrality + Crimea belongs to Russia + the Donbass republics are independent + no more sanctions.

Then I think they might be able to get a good Russian withdrawal, Russian gas and oil, peace and economic prosperity ...
Ukraine can have that after they expel the Orcs from their territory. They already took from the Orcs parts of their country that were occupied in 2014. The filthy rats are abandoning Crimea and it will fall. Ukraine doesn't have to talk, they can just take. That's all Russia understands.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:10 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.