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Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

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Old 6th August 2022, 03:39 PM   #161
Craig4
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March was after Russia invaded and occupied Crimea. The "vote" counts for nothing.
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Old 6th August 2022, 03:48 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
March was after Russia invaded and occupied Crimea. The "vote" counts for nothing.
Quote:
Post-referendum polls
The results of the survey by the US government Broadcasting Board of Governors, conducted April 21–29, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea's status likely reflected the views of most people there.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls)
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Old 6th August 2022, 03:52 PM   #163
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https://www.newsweek.com/crimean-cit...russia-1729425

And speaking of propaganda, the Ukrainians did an excellent job of it last week when they forced the Russian occupiers of their territory to cancel Navy Day celebrations in Crimea. I'm assuming the attack came from forces loyal to Ukraine in the area since Sevastopol is probably out of range for drones launched from unoccupied territory. An active insurgency, assassinating Russian occupation forces and destroying military targets is both militarily and politically a smart move.
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Old 6th August 2022, 03:58 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Doesn't matter. Russian forces had already invaded. We don't know what the respondents really thought because there were Russian occupiers on the ground. That negates everything.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:08 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Doesn't matter. Russian forces had already invaded. We don't know what the respondents really thought because there were Russian occupiers on the ground. That negates everything.
If Russia occupies the municipality where I live, near Brussels (Belgium), and if a polling organization calls me on the phone to ask what I think about it, I will certainly not hesitate to say what I think.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:16 PM   #166
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins...die-in-ukraine

I'd be curious to know if injured and maimed soldiers returning home have anything to do with military aged men avoiding service. Obviously, we don't know much about how common it is to see injured or disfigured returning soldiers on the streets in Russian communities due to Kremlin censorship. It would be good to know what factors keep young Russians from joining their military. This one of Putin's lapdogs seems to have let slip the problem that conscription avoidance is a real problem for Russia.

It's probably safe to assume that younger people get more factual news from outside Russia than other demographics. Young people are likely better able to use VPNs and defeat Russian web censorship so they may have more of an idea of what is really happening in Ukraine.

It would be nice though to have an idea of how often younger people see returning wounded and how much of a factor that is in depressing conscription.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:18 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
If Russia occupies the municipality where I live, near Brussels (Belgium), and if a polling organization calls me on the phone to ask what I think about it, I will certainly not hesitate to say what I think.
Easy to say from the cheap seats. If you get your salad dressed with your own brains by Russian goons, your neighbor will freaking love their occupiers when the pollster comes around.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:13 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
If Russia occupies the municipality where I live, near Brussels (Belgium), and if a polling organization calls me on the phone to ask what I think about it, I will certainly not hesitate to say what I think.
I wonder if you would tell them you assume Belgium must have done something to deserve it.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I wonder if you would tell them you assume Belgium must have done something to deserve it.
Yes, that's right, I believe Belgium has done (and is still doing) some serious mistakes with respect to Russia. However, I do not think Belgium's errors so far are enough to justify an invasion and an occupation of the country (assuming it would be militarily feasible, which seems rather unlikely for this NATO country).
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Old 6th August 2022, 06:19 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, that's right, I believe Belgium has done (and is still doing) some serious mistakes with respect to Russia. However, I do not think Belgium's errors so far are enough to justify an invasion and an occupation of the country (assuming it would be militarily feasible, which seems rather unlikely for this NATO country).
So, if a country makes enough "errors", it's okay for Russia to invade them? As punishment for the "errors"?
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Old 6th August 2022, 07:03 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Ukraine can have excellent relations with European Union countries (Germany, France, Italy, and many others) without necessarily being a member of an organization which seems to be obsessed with "sanctioning" Russia.

I don't think Russia would object to that.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong about Ukraine having good relations with the U.S., as long as these relations are not used to plot against Russia.
Is this an accurate summary of your position: "Ukraine is free to have international relations with whoever it chooses so long as Russia approves."?
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Old 6th August 2022, 07:04 PM   #172
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I think Michael H is making the mistake of a bad lawyer. Asking provocative questions and challenges, just to try everything to see what will stick, without considering the impact to the jury if those questions have good answers.
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:12 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, that's right, I believe Belgium has done (and is still doing) some serious mistakes with respect to Russia. However, I do not think Belgium's errors so far are enough to justify an invasion and an occupation of the country (assuming it would be militarily feasible, which seems rather unlikely for this NATO country).
The only mistake Belgium and the rest of NATO (the US included) was not providing more lethal aid to Ukraine after the invasion of Crimea and the Donbas. We're making up for it now. When Ukraine is done with Russia, it will be a paper tiger for decades. Losing the Cold War will be nothing compared to the way Russia is about to be crushed.
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Old 7th August 2022, 02:29 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.newsweek.com/crimean-cit...russia-1729425

And speaking of propaganda, the Ukrainians did an excellent job of it last week when they forced the Russian occupiers of their territory to cancel Navy Day celebrations in Crimea. I'm assuming the attack came from forces loyal to Ukraine in the area since Sevastopol is probably out of range for drones launched from unoccupied territory. An active insurgency, assassinating Russian occupation forces and destroying military targets is both militarily and politically a smart move.
Indeed. Either the drones came from Free Ukraine, which says the Russian air defences are pretty poor over the most valuable military in an area they've occupied for 8 years. Or there are partisan attacks even in this area.

Both say that no part of occupied Ukraine is safe for the occupiers - and they need to keep forces there to keep protect vital targets
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Old 7th August 2022, 02:36 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The only mistake Belgium and the rest of NATO (the US included) was not providing more lethal aid to Ukraine after the invasion of Crimea and the Donbas. We're making up for it now. When Ukraine is done with Russia, it will be a paper tiger for decades. Losing the Cold War will be nothing compared to the way Russia is about to be crushed.
Indeed - Azerbaijan has captured some strategic heights that had been occupied by Russian troops. Also the disproportionate losses amongst the ethnic minorities and the consequent return of bitter military veterans from those will fuel the separatist movements in many regions. Which I guess Michel H will support as they are not ethnic-Russians.

Putin might be able to complete the breakup of the Russian Empire that was started with the collapse of the USSR.
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Old 7th August 2022, 02:37 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed. Either the drones came from Free Ukraine, which says the Russian air defences are pretty poor over the most valuable military in an area they've occupied for 8 years. Or there are partisan attacks even in this area.

Both say that no part of occupied Ukraine is safe for the occupiers - and they need to keep forces there to keep protect vital targets
The claim I saw is that said drone was something of a home brew one from within the city. I'd also say that that would be an indicator that support for Russia in the Crimea might happen to be a *bit* lower than Russia would have us believe.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:10 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
So, if a country makes enough "errors", it's okay for Russia to invade them? As punishment for the "errors"?
That's it. And if Russia decrees the errors sufficient, we must respect the monster's judgement. So when Belgium is invaded Michel will fearlessly explain to pollsters they must have deserved it.

What's that Monty Python sketch where the victims of East End gangsters doggedly defend the men who beat them almost to death "Ah, well, I broke the unwritten law. Must have done. Stands to reason..."?
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:59 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Guardian (a well known British newspaper) wrote, on 9 May 2022:

(https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-terrified-too).
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
...the professional journalists of the Guardian make sure they use reliable and trusted sources, it's part of their job.

The Guardian's journalists didn't write that. It is from the "comment is free" opinion section, and on this occasion (as noted both before and after the piece):

Quote:
Today, on Russia’s Victory Day, reimagined by Vladimir Putin as a showcase for his regime, the Guardian and other European outlets are publishing articles by the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, which has suspended publication in Russia because of censorship over the Ukraine war
(Highlighting mine).
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Old 7th August 2022, 04:58 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed - Azerbaijan has captured some strategic heights that had been occupied by Russian troops. Also the disproportionate losses amongst the ethnic minorities and the consequent return of bitter military veterans from those will fuel the separatist movements in many regions. Which I guess Michel H will support as they are not ethnic-Russians.

Putin might be able to complete the breakup of the Russian Empire that was started with the collapse of the USSR.
I've been waiting for Transnitra to finally shed its invaders, which will be a sure sign that Russia has lost its power to be a complete jackass in the region.
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Old 7th August 2022, 08:38 AM   #180
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For Michel H's benefit, here's an example of how much Ukrainians are eager to become Russian:

Quote:
Russian state media advocated for the introduction of labor camps, repression, and the shooting of Ukrainian partisans and civilians who refuse to cooperate with Russian-appointed officials in occupied Ukrainian territories.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-6

You can just feel the love.
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Old 7th August 2022, 10:44 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
For Michel H's benefit, here's an example of how much Ukrainians are eager to become Russian:



https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-6

You can just feel the love.
I actually do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I think it's a tragedy which was partly caused by the very serious mistakes done by Ukraine and its Western unconditional supporters (somewhat like the West supports Israel even if it invades and occupy Palestinian land): it was a mistake to massively punish Russia (through economic sanctions, not a military invasion like Russia is doing now) because it annexed Crimea and recognized the two Donbass republics, because these Russian decisions were logical results of mostly legitimate, democratic processes.

Your link mentions the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, it seems fairly clear to me that this plant has recently been shelled by the Ukrainians: the Russians are not going to shell their own men (for more details, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine). Note that Ukraine refuses a visit by U.N. nuclear officials, while Russia accepts it:
Quote:
Ukraine's state nuclear company Energoatom opposed an IAEA visit because "any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there". Occupation official Yevhen Balytskyi invited IAEA to visit to show how the Russians were guarding the facility while Ukrainians were allegedly attacking it.[30]
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:29 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I actually do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine...
Except of course for your support of Russia's earlier invasion. Or is it that that one was good because it was sneaky, but this one is bad because it isn't?
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:48 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Except of course for your support of Russia's earlier invasion. Or is it that that one was good because it was sneaky, but this one is bad because it isn't?
The thing I believe in, and which seems important for me, is democracy, respecting (whenever it's possible) the wishes of the local people (this is also valid for Taiwan and Kosovo, it's apolitical in a sense).

It is quite possible that, if the Russians had not sent some men in Crimea and Donbass, your Ukrainian friends (who seem to love shelling their own nuclear power plants and shelling their own bridges) would have promptly crushed any insurgency.
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:52 AM   #184
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[accent="Russian"]

Of course a majority of population approves of my rule. The ones who don't, I have had killed.

[/accent]
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:02 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
[accent="Russian"]

Of course a majority of population approves of my rule. The ones who don't, I have had killed.

[/accent]
You remind me that I made a spelling mistake in a previous post:
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I actually do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I think it's a tragedy which was partly caused by the very serious mistakes done by Ukraine and its Western unconditional supporters (somewhat like the West supports Israel even if it invades and occupyies Palestinian land)
I hope you have watched (and listened to) the first two minutes of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Also good to know (though already posted): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls.
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The thing I believe in, and which seems important for me, is democracy, respecting (whenever it's possible) the wishes of the local people (this is also valid for Taiwan and Kosovo, it's apolitical in a sense).
Mate, you love democracy in the same way Palpatine does.

Quote:
(who seem to love shelling their own nuclear power plants and shelling their own bridges)
If Russia are so worried about the safety of the plant, perhaps they shouldn't be using it as a military base. Then again I don't see any evidence that they "love shelling" those plants. Each side is accusing the other of doing that.

When it comes to bridges, what possible reason do you think could they have to want to destroy a bridge?

Quote:
It is quite possible that, if the Russians had not sent some men in Crimea and Donbass, your Ukrainian friends [...] would have promptly crushed any insurgency.
Do you consider the wants of an insurgency to be the legitimate views of the population in which they are acting? Does an insurgency mean that a government should automatically acquiesce to the demands of the insurgent group? And when do you believe an outside actor can intervene?
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:46 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Mate, you love democracy in the same way Palpatine does.



If Russia are so worried about the safety of the plant, perhaps they shouldn't be using it as a military base. Then again I don't see any evidence that they "love shelling" those plants. Each side is accusing the other of doing that.

When it comes to bridges, what possible reason do you think could they have to want to destroy a bridge?



Do you consider the wants of an insurgency to be the legitimate views of the population in which they are acting? Does an insurgency mean that a government should automatically acquiesce to the demands of the insurgent group? And when do you believe an outside actor can intervene?
Quote:
When it comes to bridges, what possible reason do you think could they have to want to destroy a bridge?
Their goal is to disrupt supply routes used by Russia (see https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...9661658918966/). It's part of the "total war" financed and equipped by the U.S. (and some European countries). They're destroying their own country, but they don't care. They think others will pay the bills.
Quote:
Do you consider the wants of an insurgency to be the legitimate views of the population in which they are acting? Does an insurgency mean that a government should automatically acquiesce to the demands of the insurgent group? And when do you believe an outside actor can intervene?
I could certainly imagine an insurgency which doesn't have real popular support, by reasonable people (I can perhaps think about some jihadist groups in Africa for example).
But, in this case, we know there are some real pro-Russian sentiments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls). The facts these regions speak Russian is probably an important factor.
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:09 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I actually do not support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I think it's a tragedy which was partly caused by the very serious mistakes done by Ukraine and its Western unconditional supporters (somewhat like the West supports Israel even if it invades and occupy Palestinian land): it was a mistake to massively punish Russia (through economic sanctions, not a military invasion like Russia is doing now) because it annexed Crimea and recognized the two Donbass republics, because these Russian decisions were logical results of mostly legitimate, democratic processes.

Your link mentions the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, it seems fairly clear to me that this plant has recently been shelled by the Ukrainians: the Russians are not going to shell their own men (for more details, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine). Note that Ukraine refuses a visit by U.N. nuclear officials, while Russia accepts it:
The Russians said Zaporizhzhia was shelled by Ukrainians. No one else has made that claim. That doesn't mean that's what happened.
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:11 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Their goal is to disrupt supply routes used by Russia (see https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...9661658918966/). It's part of the "total war" financed and equipped by the U.S. (and some European countries). They're destroying their own country, but they don't care. They think others will pay the bills.

I could certainly imagine an insurgency which doesn't have real popular support, by reasonable people (I can perhaps think about some jihadist groups in Africa for example).
But, in this case, we know there are some real pro-Russian sentiments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls). The facts these regions speak Russian is probably an important factor.
Ukraine thinks Russia will pay the bills in the form of frozen assets in NATO countries that will likely be provided to pay for Russia's reparations to Ukraine.
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:24 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Your link mentions the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, it seems fairly clear to me that this plant has recently been shelled by the Ukrainians: the Russians are not going to shell their own men (for more details, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine). Note that Ukraine refuses a visit by U.N. nuclear officials, while Russia accepts it:
There is nothing in that link to support your wild claim that the Ukrainians have shelled the nuclear power station.
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:34 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The Russians said Zaporizhzhia was shelled by Ukrainians. No one else has made that claim. That doesn't mean that's what happened.
The Ukrainians have already attacked the nuclear plant before:
Quote:
On 5 July 2022, The Wall Street Journal reported that Russian forces arranged a military base in the complex by deploying heavy self-propelled multiple rocket launcher BM-30 Smerch.[27] On 19 July 2022, three Ukrainian suicide drones attacked Russian equipment and tents at the site. Ukraine's Ministry of Defense said that three Russian occupiers were killed and twelve injured.[28] The occupation administration was reported as saying that at least eleven employees were injured. An occupation official said the reactors were not damaged and it was unlikely they were the target.[29]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

They probably wanted to attack Russian troops and equipment there. I don't see what could be the Russian motivation for attacking a nuclear plant in an area they occupy, with Russian military personnel present on the site. For their propaganda, it is more interesting to be able to say:"When we are in charge, everything is going well" (even if it's actually not true).
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:47 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Ukrainians have already attacked the nuclear plant before:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

They probably wanted to attack Russian troops and equipment there. I don't see what could be the Russian motivation for attacking a nuclear plant in an area they occupy, with Russian military personnel present on the site. For their propaganda, it is more interesting to be able to say:"When we are in charge, everything is going well" (even if it's actually not true).
Stupidity, poor explosives handling, short rounds, an attempt to impact western support for Ukraine all come to mind as motivations for Russian to stage shelling. We have amply evidence that Russians don't value the lives of their soldiers. The stupid **** commanding the plant even said so.
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Old 8th August 2022, 03:57 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Stupidity, poor explosives handling, short rounds, an attempt to impact western support for Ukraine all come to mind as motivations for Russian to stage shelling. We have amply evidence that Russians don't value the lives of their soldiers. The stupid **** commanding the plant even said so.
Quote:
The stupid **** commanding the plant even said so.
I don't know what you are talking about here.

If they've attacked the plant once, they can attack it twice.

One other thing to take into account is that, in the West, there are lots of passionate Ukraine supporters and Russia haters, who will be ready to buy any Ukrainian lie, provided it sounds anti-Russian.
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:04 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't know what you are talking about here.

If they've attacked the plant once, they can attack it twice.

One other thing to take into account is that, in the West, there are lots of passionate Ukraine supporters and Russia haters, who will be ready to buy any Ukrainian lie, provided it sounds anti-Russian.
The difference being the Ukraine allows journalists from many countries and news outlets in the country. Much of the reporting about what's going on in Ukraine does not come from their government. This is not true of Russia where reports are jailed for reporting the truth.

As far as hating the Russians, they've earned it. It's okay to hate the Russians. To avoid that, all they have to do is stay contained to their borders. It's a feat nearly every other country on earth manages without too much trouble.

By the way, did you hear the good news from yesterday? Ukraine shelled the bridge near Kherson again, preventing its reopening and conducted HIMARS strikes on Russian troop concentrations killing many, wounding more and destroying Russian military equipment. An excellent start to the week.
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:18 AM   #195
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Russia prepares to take another "vote" for annexation.

Quote:
The Ukrainian Mayor of Melitopol, Zaporizhia Oblast, Ivan Fedorov, reported on August 7 that resistance among Ukrainian residents has forced Russian authorities to “constantly” change their plans for a referendum. Fedorov claimed that occupation authorities had planned a single day of voting but are now considering seven days of “voting from home” in which armed Russian military personnel will go house to house and “interview” Melitopol residents.[1] Fedorov claimed that only about 10% of the civilians remaining in Melitopol support Russia’s occupation and warned that Russian soldiers will threaten to shoot residents who do not vote for annexation.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-7

Yeah, feel the love as Russia "liberates" Ukraine.
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:24 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't know what you are talking about here.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2896

"Russian commander admits that Russia has mined the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant and will destroy it rather than allow it to be recaptured"
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:32 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Russia prepares to take another "vote" for annexation.



https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-7

Yeah, feel the love as Russia "liberates" Ukraine.
Well.
If you shoot enough of the people, who vote pro Ukraine, you can simply discard all the other pro-ukraine votes, as it can be simply said that Ukraine is so desperate to influence this vote, that they even let the dead vote!
I mean. Proof is there for all to see. Bodies are right there!

Which makes the end result a 100% vote for annexation and yet another triumph for democracy for certain personas to tout about.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:03 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Their goal is to disrupt supply routes used by Russia.
And why are they trying to disrupt Russian supply routes? And do you believe there are any legitimate reasons for them to do such a thing?

Quote:
It's part of the "total war" financed and equipped by the U.S. (and some European countries). They're destroying their own country, but they don't care. They think others will pay the bills.
Could there be any reason at all that the Ukrainians feel like they need to do this? For example, has anyone said anything that would suggest to them that they need to aggressively defend themselves?

Quote:
I could certainly imagine an insurgency which doesn't have real popular support, by reasonable people (I can perhaps think about some jihadist groups in Africa for example).
And the answer to the rest of my questions there?

Quote:
But, in this case, we know there are some real pro-Russian sentiments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls). The facts these regions speak Russian is probably an important factor.
And yet, in your very article you seem to ignore the pre-invasion poll from May 2013 that found a majority of the population wanted things to continue as they were, or surveys that found that a majority of Crimeans considered Ukraine to be their motherland.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Ukrainians have already attacked the nuclear plant before:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

They probably wanted to attack Russian troops and equipment there. I don't see what could be the Russian motivation for attacking a nuclear plant in an area they occupy, with Russian military personnel present on the site. For their propaganda, it is more interesting to be able to say:"When we are in charge, everything is going well" (even if it's actually not true).
Because they would want to blame it on the Ukrainians in an attempt to portray them as irresponsible in order to cause Western countries to lower or even remove their support for Ukraine. It also works for domestic purposes since such a portrayal of Ukraine helps to legitimise the actions of Russia there because they can say that they're protecting Russians from an "irrational" Ukraine.

Of course neither of those instances would explain the main issue, which is why Russia is using a nuclear plant as a military base.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:24 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Russia prepares to take another "vote" for annexation.



https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-7

Yeah, feel the love as Russia "liberates" Ukraine.
Every time a Russian soldiers dies in Ukraine an angel gets their wings. At the start of the invasion, I felt bad for Russian soldiers. Now, the more occupiers the Ukrainians kill the safer the world is. They really are the orcs the Ukrainians say they are.
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Old 8th August 2022, 06:05 AM   #200
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2896

"Russian commander admits that Russia has mined the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant and will destroy it rather than allow it to be recaptured"
But Craig4 said:
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Stupidity, poor explosives handling, short rounds, an attempt to impact western support for Ukraine all come to mind as motivations for Russian to stage shelling. We have amply evidence that Russians don't value the lives of their soldiers. The stupid **** commanding the plant even said so.
He talked about not valuing soldiers' lives, not about destroying the nuclear plant. Technically, it is probably possible to destroy a nuclear plant without causing much radioactive release, it would have to be blown up when it is shut down. When the chain reaction is stopped, and there is no core meltdown, it may not be very dangerous.

Nevertheless, I think the Russians should not be in Zaporizhzhia, where they came uninvited, and they should not cause more damage by destroying the plant.

Ukraine is also guilty, in my opinion, because:
Quote:
Ukraine's state nuclear company Energoatom opposed an IAEA visit because "any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there". Occupation official Yevhen Balytskyi invited IAEA to visit to show how the Russians were guarding the facility while Ukrainians were attacking it.[30]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

It remains to be seen if the destruction order (in case of a forced withdrawal) really comes from the top (in Russia).

Stout just posted:
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
ETA: The Reddit thread involving the mining of the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant has been closed due to the information coming from a "a non-credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment". Looks like we'll have to wait and see if this develops into anything significant or whether it gets tossed in the fake news bin. As to just who shelled the power plant, that's looking like more wait and see as well. I'm kind of skeptical that the Russians would attack a facility they've controlled for quite some time.

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