IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

Reply
Old 8th August 2022, 06:16 AM   #201
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And yet, in your very article you seem to ignore the pre-invasion poll from May 2013 that found a majority of the population wanted things to continue as they were, or surveys that found that a majority of Crimeans considered Ukraine to be their motherland.
Which poll from the article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum) are you referring to exactly?

The situation changed substantially after the ousting of the pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 06:25 AM   #202
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,701
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Technically, it is probably possible to destroy a nuclear plant without causing much radioactive release ...
The guy in command at the nuclear power plant demands either victory or a scorched desert. Rather than lose control of it he will create a scorched desert in Ukraine. Does that sound to you like he wants to avoid radioactive contamination, or to cause as much of it as possible?

It is truly pitiful to see you trying to convince yourself that there's some way in which this lunacy makes the Russian invaders the good guys.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 06:36 AM   #203
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The guy in command at the nuclear power plant demands either victory or a scorched desert. Rather than lose control of it he will create a scorched desert in Ukraine. Does that sound to you like he wants to avoid radioactive contamination, or to cause as much of it as possible?

It is truly pitiful to see you trying to convince yourself that there's some way in which this lunacy makes the Russian invaders the good guys.
No, not the good guys (I am against this invasion), I said:
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Nevertheless, I think the Russians should not be in Zaporizhzhia, where they came uninvited, and they should not cause more damage by destroying the plant.
...
Stout just posted:
I have edited my post (with Stout's comment), you may not have seen that.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 03:40 PM   #204
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,515
Post

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Which poll from the article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum) are you referring to exactly?
The ones in the "polling" section in the Background.

Quote:
The situation changed substantially after the ousting of the pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014.
And we have no polling data from after he was ousted but before the Russian took control of the peninsula. The last poll presented just before the ousting showed that only a minority wanted any form of unification with Russia. Then the data starts to become unreliable.

Care to comment on the rest of my post, or do you prefer the low hanging fruit?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2022, 05:26 PM   #205
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,515
I just wanted to point out that there were reports that the real referendum turnout was far lower than officially reported.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 04:10 AM   #206
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022...ack/index.html

Here's a good article on the Russian attack on the prisoners in Donetsks. It does a great job of refuting the Russian lies about it being a Ukrainian attack. I'm sure our resident pro Russia pro Genocide posters won't care but for people interested in evidence and truth it's a good read.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 05:13 PM   #207
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2022...ack/index.html

Here's a good article on the Russian attack on the prisoners in Donetsks. It does a great job of refuting the Russian lies about it being a Ukrainian attack. I'm sure our resident pro Russia pro Genocide posters won't care but for people interested in evidence and truth it's a good read.
My impression is that this attack was done by the Russians, not the Ukrainians.

Meanwhile, it seems that the Ukrainians are still refusing a UN-IAEA mission to inspect the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant:
Quote:
Ukraine's state nuclear company Energoatom opposed an IAEA visit because "any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there".
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

It is possible that the true reason for this refusal is that Ukraine and their unconditional Western supporters don't care if a nuclear disaster occurs in Russian-controlled territory (?).
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 07:33 PM   #208
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,515
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Meanwhile, it seems that the Ukrainians are still refusing a UN-IAEA mission to inspect the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

It is possible that the true reason for this refusal is that Ukraine and their unconditional Western supporters don't care if a nuclear disaster occurs in Russian-controlled territory (?).
Even though 2 days later they were asking for the site to be controlled by a UN peacekeeping force? The UN has asked the Russians to withdraw from the plant, Ukraine, France and the US have asked for Russia to withdraw from the plant and the US has also backed calls for a DMZ around the plant.

In what world do you think that it's Ukraine's fault that Russia is using the plant as a military base to launch artillery strikes from?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 07:52 PM   #209
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Even though 2 days later they were asking for the site to be controlled by a UN peacekeeping force? The UN has asked the Russians to withdraw from the plant, Ukraine, France and the US have asked for Russia to withdraw from the plant and the US has also backed calls for a DMZ around the plant.

In what world do you think that it's Ukraine's fault that Russia is using the plant as a military base to launch artillery strikes from?
Yes, it is quite possible that (as you say) Russia is using the nuclear plant to launch artillery strikes from there.

But Ukraine should nevertheless allow international nuclear inspectors on the site, who would describle the exact situation.

It is possible that the Russians, after hearing that the international inspectors will be coming soon, decide to withdraw their rocket launchers from the plant (if there are any).
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2022, 11:38 PM   #210
ginjawarrior
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, it is quite possible that (as you say) Russia is using the nuclear plant to launch artillery strikes from there.

But Ukraine should nevertheless allow international nuclear inspectors on the site, who would describle the exact situation.

It is possible that the Russians, after hearing that the international inspectors will be coming soon, decide to withdraw their rocket launchers from the plant (if there are any).
Ukraine aren't the ones stopping inspection of the site

russia is controlling the site
ginjawarrior is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 12:09 AM   #211
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 14,995
Yeah, but Ukraine is controlling most of Ukraine, so it's all their fault.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 01:01 AM   #212
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, it is quite possible that (as you say) Russia is using the nuclear plant to launch artillery strikes from there.

But Ukraine should nevertheless allow international nuclear inspectors on the site, who would describle the exact situation.

It is possible that the Russians, after hearing that the international inspectors will be coming soon, decide to withdraw their rocket launchers from the plant (if there are any).
Why doesn't Russia just leave. The only reason we're worried about this is Russia invaded Ukraine. None of this would be a problem if Russia simply returned to their 2013 border. That's all they have to do.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 01:45 AM   #213
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
Ukraine aren't the ones stopping inspection of the site

russia is controlling the site
Yes, it seems that, at the present time, it is Ukraine which is refusing an international inspection of the plant (if you have some other information, feel free to supply it):
Quote:
A mission to inspect the plant was being planned by the IAEA, waiting on approval by Ukrainian and Russian sides, as well as United Nations authorisation. Ukraine's state nuclear company Energoatom opposed an IAEA visit because "any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there". Occupation official Yevhen Balytskyi invited IAEA to visit to show how the Russians were guarding the facility while Ukrainians were attacking it.[30]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)

Quote:
Earlier, Russian Foreign Ministry deputy spokesman Ivan Nechaev said that Moscow was in favor of an IAEA inspection of the Zaporozhye plant.
(https://www.rt.com/news/560680-world...trophe-moscow/, 11 Aug 2022 22:32)

Here is nuclear chief Rafael Grossi explaining politely the situation to CBS News: https://twitter.com/PamelaFalk/statu...43295192334336.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 02:21 AM   #214
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 35,156
Meanwhile in Zaporizhzhia, the Russians are staying true to form:

Quote:
Staff at the occupied Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant have described to the BBC being kept at gunpoint while Russian troops use it as a military base.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62509638
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 04:13 AM   #215
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, it seems that, at the present time, it is Ukraine which is refusing an international inspection of the plant (if you have some other information, feel free to supply it):

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)


(https://www.rt.com/news/560680-world...trophe-moscow/, 11 Aug 2022 22:32)

Here is nuclear chief Rafael Grossi explaining politely the situation to CBS News: https://twitter.com/PamelaFalk/statu...43295192334336.
If the Russians allow inspectors in, said inspectors will see exactly what the Russians want them to see. Letting inspectors in wouldn't matter because it's Russia that occupies the power plant. It will be like the Crimea fake referendums. They'll orchestrate the fiction of responsibility, or at least enough of one to spin the inspection results. Russia lacks integrity and can't be trusted.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 04:20 AM   #216
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...e-war-video-vn

Not my favorite source but most of the other ones I found were behind pay walls. You get a bit more from the stupid bitch who took a vacation in occupied territory during a war. Apparently all the holiday makers who went to Crimea for their August vacation have blocked the bridge leading back to Russia. The fleeing tourists are going to be some of the best propaganda you can buy.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 05:14 AM   #217
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,701
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
... Apparently all the holiday makers who went to Crimea for their August vacation have blocked the bridge leading back to Russia. The fleeing tourists are going to be some of the best propaganda you can buy.
With you-know-who controlling the TV news in Russia it's a pretty safe bet that the story will not be used as a warning to end the war. It'll be used as a rallying cry to Do Something about those dreadful Ukrainian Nazis bombarding innocent little child just playing on the beach.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 05:19 AM   #218
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,515
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
With you-know-who controlling the TV news in Russia it's a pretty safe bet that the story will not be used as a warning to end the war. It'll be used as a rallying cry to Do Something about those dreadful Ukrainian Nazis bombarding innocent little child just playing on the beach.
Yeah. They already managed to spin quite a bit of gold with Amnesty International's recent terrible report. It even got a mention to the UN Security Council.
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 05:22 AM   #219
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,427
The propaganda situation in Russia must be wild right now, if Russians are holidaying in an active war zone. Like vacationing in England during the blitz.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 05:31 AM   #220
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 13,701
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The propaganda situation in Russia must be wild right now, if Russians are holidaying in an active war zone. Like vacationing in England during the blitz.
It's been a popular beach holiday destination for generations. As far as they're concerned it's even part of Russia now, and the "Special Police Action" is happening waaaaay over there in Ukraine. I very much doubt they imagined they were in a war zone.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 05:56 AM   #221
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Yeah. They already managed to spin quite a bit of gold with Amnesty International's recent terrible report. It even got a mention to the UN Security Council.
I'd like to know what Amnesty International expected Ukraine to do. Yes, when you're defending your people from genocide, your forces will be close to the people they are protecting. That's kind of the point. We see what happens to Ukrainian civilians in Russian occupied areas. You can't keep your people from being murdered by Russians if you're not there killing Russians.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 06:38 AM   #222
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If the Russians allow inspectors in, said inspectors will see exactly what the Russians want them to see. Letting inspectors in wouldn't matter because it's Russia that occupies the power plant. It will be like the Crimea fake referendums. They'll orchestrate the fiction of responsibility, or at least enough of one to spin the inspection results. Russia lacks integrity and can't be trusted.
Quote:
If the Russians allow inspectors in, said inspectors will see exactly what the Russians want them to see.
If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.

Actually, I think that the IAEA should consider visiting the plant even without Ukrainian approval, if it turns out to be impossible to obtain.

CNN said:
Quote:
Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, after Russian President Vladimir Putin sent military forces into what was then an autonomous region of southern Ukraine with strong Russian loyalties.
(https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/11/e...-ml/index.html)

My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.

I don't think that the West should support such a undertaking, which is very costly for Ukraine itself and for the West, in many senses.

One might argue that, before this year's invasion, the Russians (not the Ukrainians) were the true freedom fighters, supporting the local people, while the West came with many sanctions.

It is possible that the U.S. is using Ukraine as a pretext to try to attack and weaken Russia, perceived as a global rival.

Last edited by Michel H; 12th August 2022 at 06:39 AM.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 06:51 AM   #223
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 35,156
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.
And as has been pointed out repeatedly, your impression is wrong and is based on flawed premises.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 06:58 AM   #224
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,496
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.


I love the implied suggestion that somehow the public image of Russia could get any worse.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 07:09 AM   #225
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post


I love the implied suggestion that somehow the public image of Russia could get any worse.

Dave
When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 07:18 AM   #226
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 35,156
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.
Russia is in favour of IAEA inspections in the same way that Donald Trump is in favour of having the details of the Mar-a-Lago FBI warrant released.

Last edited by The Don; 12th August 2022 at 07:30 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 08:08 AM   #227
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Niceville, Florida, USA
Posts: 5,550
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.

From The Washington Post, August 8:
A spokesman for Ukraine’s Foreign Affairs Ministry, Oleg Nikolenko, also told The Washington Post that Kyiv supports a U.N. team coming to the nuclear site “as soon as possible.”

“We want the watchdog to come to the power plant and check on the status to verify how the nuclear materials are being used,” he said. “And we also want the organization to prepare a report about the violations of nuclear security that Russia is committing in Zaporizhzhia.”
You really shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source. The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry articulates Ukraine's foreign policy, not Energoatom. And you also seem not to have noticed (or cared) that no citation was provided for the claim that Energoatom opposes an inspection. Fail.

As for the hilited, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do it justice.
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
--Carl Schurz
SpitfireIX is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 08:55 AM   #228
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.

Actually, I think that the IAEA should consider visiting the plant even without Ukrainian approval, if it turns out to be impossible to obtain.

CNN said:

(https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/11/e...-ml/index.html)

My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.

I don't think that the West should support such a undertaking, which is very costly for Ukraine itself and for the West, in many senses.

One might argue that, before this year's invasion, the Russians (not the Ukrainians) were the true freedom fighters, supporting the local people, while the West came with many sanctions.

It is possible that the U.S. is using Ukraine as a pretext to try to attack and weaken Russia, perceived as a global rival.
Ukraine has every right to impose its rule on their territory. Crimea is Ukraine without regard to Russian claims or CNN reporting. Period. They have ever right to wage war on Russians occupying their territory and expel the invader. The also have a right to prosecute Ukrainians who collaborate with the foreign hostile power unlawfully occupying their territory. Under the Law of Armed Conflict they also have a right to assassinate their own citizens aiding the enemy occupier.

Weakening Russian is our stated goal; our Secretary of Defense said so. Russia has demonstrated they can be trusted to remain within their borders and now we're equipping Ukraine to make sure it will be decades before they can threaten their neighbors again. All Russia had to do to avoid this was not wage a war of aggression and occupation. Nearly every other country on Earth is manages to do this.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 08:59 AM   #229
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.
Who crossed whose border? Ukraine only launched attacks into Russia after Russia invaded (Belgorad) and only to disrupt the Russian invasion. They've only attacked Russian and not Belorussian territory and only targets threatening them.

Obviously the attack on the Crimean airbase doesn't count as an attack on Russian territory because Crimea isn't part of Russia.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 11:38 AM   #230
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,241
Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
You really shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source. The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry articulates Ukraine's foreign policy, not Energoatom. And you also seem not to have noticed (or cared) that no citation was provided for the claim that Energoatom opposes an inspection. Fail.
Sole source, at least. Wikipedia is usually a pretty good start, though, of course, and totally fine for normal usage. Either way, though, that's a general thing and fairly certainly not actually particularly meaningful here. Michel H has a habit of engaging in extreme cherry-picking and spin. In the real world, there's very little that is truly black and white and most honest sources acknowledge that. That certain motivated people seize upon some minor triviality noted correctly in a source and use/twist it wildly out of context to create or support fallacy is not actually an indictment of the source.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
As for the hilited, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do it justice.
Well... to play a bit of a Devil's Advocate, I have no problem with the claim that "Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order." If you cherry pick, that "(sometimes)" is very likely true, even if their national intentions likely have nothing to do with that even in many of the cases that can be cherry picked where they happen to do so. The implication that such applies to what's going on in Ukraine and the Ukraine bit, of course, is worthy of nothing more than laughing dogs.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 12th August 2022 at 11:43 AM.
Aridas is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 11:47 AM   #231
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 34,706
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins...die-in-ukraine

I'd be curious to know if injured and maimed soldiers returning home have anything to do with military aged men avoiding service....
Certainly had an effect on my generation in the USA 50-60 years ago.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2022, 11:52 AM   #232
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 27,393
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins...die-in-ukraine

I'd be curious to know if injured and maimed soldiers returning home have anything to do with military aged men avoiding service. Obviously, we don't know much about how common it is to see injured or disfigured returning soldiers on the streets in Russian communities due to Kremlin censorship. It would be good to know what factors keep young Russians from joining their military. This one of Putin's lapdogs seems to have let slip the problem that conscription avoidance is a real problem for Russia.

It's probably safe to assume that younger people get more factual news from outside Russia than other demographics. Young people are likely better able to use VPNs and defeat Russian web censorship so they may have more of an idea of what is really happening in Ukraine.

It would be nice though to have an idea of how often younger people see returning wounded and how much of a factor that is in depressing conscription.

the flipside of this.

Don't treat our children like dogs!”. Russia's military prosecutor's hacked archive reveals true state of affairs at the front



Quote:
The Insider has in its possession an archive of complaints addressed to the Russian military prosecutor's office, which reflects the true state of affairs during the war in Ukraine. Conscripts have been deceived or coerced into the war zone, soldiers have not been provided with normal food or medical care, contract servicemen have been deliberately violating every military regulation in order to be dismissed from service, and parents cannot obtain any information on whether their children have been taken prisoner or killed in action. From the Russian citizens' complaints one can also learn about the looting and atrocities perpetrated by Russian soldiers.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2022, 03:46 AM   #233
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Wow, I loved the one about the mother who didn't want to find out if her son was alive so she could keep his death benefit. If I was her son, I'd so remember that when I picked out her nursing home.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2022, 04:13 AM   #234
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,922
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Wow, I loved the one about the mother who didn't want to find out if her son was alive so she could keep his death benefit. If I was her son, I'd so remember that when I picked out her nursing home.
Or, you can view it as en example of what crushing poverty can do to people.
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2022, 08:44 AM   #235
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,095
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
With you-know-who controlling the TV news in Russia it's a pretty safe bet that the story will not be used as a warning to end the war. It'll be used as a rallying cry to Do Something about those dreadful Ukrainian Nazis bombarding innocent little child just playing on the beach.
A few decades ago when I worked for Sears, the company taught us that the average person tells six people about a negative experience. The word of mouth will probably keep Russians from vacationing in occupied Ukraine anymore.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2022, 09:53 AM   #236
ginjawarrior
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, it seems that, at the present time, it is Ukraine which is refusing an international inspection of the plant (if you have some other information, feel free to supply it):

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapori...ion_of_Ukraine)
[/url].
The doublespeak, it hurts...
This is the BBC article that Wikipedia was referencing
Quote:
In June, Ukraine's state nuclear company said Ukraine had not invited the IAEA - and any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there.
It's gone from "not invited" to "opposed" to "refused"

Now if someone steals your car do you think it's still your responsibility to get mandatory road safety checks on the car that's no longer in your possession?

Russia is only one stopping inspection
ginjawarrior is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2022, 02:59 PM   #237
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
The BBC has, once again, used its very "peculiar" map of southern Ukraine and Crimea, which could raise some eyebrows, see bottom of this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013.

For the actual map of Crimea, see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...the_Crimea.png, provided by wikipedia.

The difference is obvious, the BBC seems to be trying to give its millions of readers the impression that Crimea should be part of Ukraine because of a long common border, when, in fact, the Crimean peninsula is almost an island, being naturally connected to the mainland only through the narrow Isthmus of Perekop:
Quote:
The peninsula is almost entirely surrounded by both the Black Sea and the smaller Sea of Azov; it is located south of Kherson Oblast (which is partially occupied by Russia) in Ukraine, to which it is connected by the Isthmus of Perekop, and west of Krasnodar Krai in Russia, from which it is separated by the Strait of Kerch though linked by the Crimean Bridge since 2018.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea)
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2022, 04:04 PM   #238
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 47,276
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The BBC has, once again, used its very "peculiar" map of southern Ukraine and Crimea, which could raise some eyebrows, see bottom of this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013.

For the actual map of Crimea, see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea...the_Crimea.png, provided by wikipedia.

The difference is obvious, the BBC seems to be trying to give its millions of readers the impression that Crimea should be part of Ukraine because of a long common border, when, in fact, the Crimean peninsula is almost an island, being naturally connected to the mainland only through the narrow Isthmus of Perekop:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea)
Except it's not an island at all, it's a peninsula, which isn't anything like an island since it isn't 100% surrounded by water.
But you knew that already, didn't you, so what was the point of this commentary?
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2022, 04:11 PM   #239
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Except it's not an island at all, it's a peninsula, which isn't anything like an island since it isn't 100% surrounded by water.
But you knew that already, didn't you, so what was the point of this commentary?
Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2022, 05:43 PM   #240
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 47,276
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.
Still nowhere near being an island. Such desperate claims seem, desperate.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.