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Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

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Old 19th August 2022, 05:57 PM   #241
eerok
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.
Crimea has a strong connection to Ukraine because it's Ukrainian.

Whether the BBC made a map you like the look of or not is beside the point.
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Old 19th August 2022, 05:57 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Still nowhere near being an island. Such desperate claims seem, desperate.
Did you really look at the BBC picture?

Doesn't it seem strange to you that all the water between Crimea and Ukraine is gone?

If a peninsula is barely attached to the mainland through a very narrow strip of land, than it seems fair to me to say it's "almost" an island, in a geographical sense. This has also consequences for human relations, you can't just go to the mainland by taking a short walk.
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Old 19th August 2022, 06:38 PM   #243
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It's not "gone". There are different colours used there. Look closer. (See also South of Melitopol.)

It's (A) a conspiracy from the BBC, or (B) the map maker just didn't bother tracing all the coastlines when colouring the areas under occupation.

You are the only one picking A.


(Edit: in any case, there is a land connection to the rest of Ukraine, but the Russians had to build a bridge to connect to Russia; so I don't think you are making the point you think you are.)

Last edited by pzkpfw; 19th August 2022 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 19th August 2022, 07:06 PM   #244
Michel H
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Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
It's not "gone". There are different colours used there. Look closer. (See also South of Melitopol.)

It's (A) a conspiracy from the BBC, or (B) the map maker just didn't bother tracing all the coastlines when colouring the areas under occupation.

You are the only one picking A.


(Edit: in any case, there is a land connection to the rest of Ukraine, but the Russians had to build a bridge to connect to Russia; so I don't think you are making the point you think you are.)
Yes, there is a land connection to mainland Ukraine, while there is no natural land connection to nearby Russia (there is just a bridge).

But I don't think that's an excuse for removing all the blue water, and replacing it by a kind of dark or bluish red (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013). In the present context, this is even a major informational crime, imo, because uninformed people will unmistakably believe there is a long land border between Crimea and mainland Ukraine.

This map was made by the U.S. Institute for the Study of War:
Quote:
ISW currently operates as a nonprofit organization, supported by contributions from defense contractors[6] including General Dynamics, DynCorp,[7] and previously, Raytheon.[8]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instit...e_Study_of_War).

These corporations may have a financial interest in promoting war.
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Old 19th August 2022, 07:57 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.
No, they didn't. The water is still marked, if you actually look, but coloured in to indicate that it's currently illegally occupied by Russian forces. But I have to say I'm impressed by how pathetic an argument you're now advancing to justify Russia's crimes; the Crimea is connected by land to Ukraine and not to Russia, but not by as much land as someone who can't be bothered to look carefully at a map might think, so that somehow makes it Russian. It's a new low for you.

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Old 19th August 2022, 08:42 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, they didn't. The water is still marked, if you actually look, but coloured in to indicate that it's currently illegally occupied by Russian forces. But I have to say I'm impressed by how pathetic an argument you're now advancing to justify Russia's crimes; the Crimea is connected by land to Ukraine and not to Russia, but not by as much land as someone who can't be bothered to look carefully at a map might think, so that somehow makes it Russian. It's a new low for you.

Dave
Quote:
The water is still marked, if you actually look, but coloured in to indicate that it's currently illegally occupied by Russian forces.
There is actually no explanation on the map for the special color (bluish red) used for the water between Crimea and mainland Ukraine.

The color for "occupied" is rose. I also note that the color for the territorial waters near Crimea is blue (not occupied, in spite of the Russian Black Sea fleet?).

An average reader quickly glancing at this map will, in my opinion, often believe than there is a long land border between Crimea and Ukraine. Because of this, this map is, in my opinion, terribly misleading. It would have been easy to start with a correct map, and then add some rose or purple color, while keeping the water blue everywhere (it would have been easy for readers to extrapolate that a blue lake in a occupied area is "occupied" too). Their misleading bluish red may have been a consequence of mixing the rose of occupation with the blue of water (with, perhaps, a perverse intention).
Quote:
But I have to say I'm impressed by how pathetic an argument you're now advancing to justify Russia's crimes; the Crimea is connected by land to Ukraine and not to Russia, but not by as much land as someone who can't be bothered to look carefully at a map might think, so that somehow makes it Russian.
I am not trying to justify Russia's crimes. The prime reason why Crimea might be considered Russian is that people there voted to join Russia in 2014 (it seems to be a well established fact that Russian speaking Crimea is pro Russian). Then Ukraine and its allies imposed various heavy sanctions on Crimea and Russia (not so gentle).

Using fake maps may be part of a deliberate disinformation campaign by the US and UK. I don't think it's a "new low" to refuse to be naively pro-Ukrainian and/or militaristic.
There can be a middle ground.
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Old 19th August 2022, 08:52 PM   #247
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It's only a "well established fact" if you disregard how the 2014 referendum was not an honest assessment. Repeating a claim doesn't respond to the many arguments made against it.
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Old 20th August 2022, 12:29 AM   #248
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Old 20th August 2022, 01:04 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am not trying to justify Russia's crimes..
Rubbish. Everything you have posted in this thread is an attempt to justify post hoc Russia's illegal occupation of the Crimea.

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Old 20th August 2022, 03:12 AM   #250
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Meanwhile

Mikhail Ulyanov has since deleted this tweet and complained that it's being misconstrued.



As opposed to his failing to remember which audience he was addressing.
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Old 20th August 2022, 04:28 AM   #251
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So, Michael_H, if Ukraine retakes it's territory in the Crimea and then holds a referendum, you'd happily support the results?
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Old 20th August 2022, 04:36 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So, Michael_H, if Ukraine retakes it's territory in the Crimea and then holds a referendum, you'd happily support the results?
I imagine that'd depend on the results.
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Old 20th August 2022, 08:36 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So, Michael_H, if Ukraine retakes it's territory in the Crimea and then holds a referendum, you'd happily support the results?
I don't think a referendum is necessary. Crimea was Ukrainian in 2014, and Russia's occupation is illegal, so it's still Ukrainian right now. It just remains for the Russian invaders to be evicted.

Still, it's a pertinent question for Michel_H.
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Last edited by eerok; 20th August 2022 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 01:18 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But I don't think that's an excuse for removing all the blue water, and replacing it by a kind of dark or bluish red
Except that's not what has happened. The colour key is clearly marked below the map. The "Russian Military Control" overlay is transparent. The land is white, so when you overlay the red colour, it appears red. But when you overlay the red colour over the blue of the water, it shows as a bluish red. It is clearly indicating the extent to which the Russian Navy controls the Black Sea. And, as someone else has mentioned, the two inlets south of Melitopol have that same overlay.

No, it is very clear what is happening here, and it takes effort to so egregiously misinterpret the map.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 04:12 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Except that's not what has happened. The colour key is clearly marked below the map. The "Russian Military Control" overlay is transparent. The land is white, so when you overlay the red colour, it appears red. But when you overlay the red colour over the blue of the water, it shows as a bluish red. It is clearly indicating the extent to which the Russian Navy controls the Black Sea. And, as someone else has mentioned, the two inlets south of Melitopol have that same overlay.

No, it is very clear what is happening here, and it takes effort to so egregiously misinterpret the map.
Well nobody can say he's not willing to put in the effort.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 01:12 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile

Mikhail Ulyanov has since deleted this tweet and complained that it's being misconstrued.



As opposed to his failing to remember which audience he was addressing.
There will be a final solution to the Ukraine problem.....

God, and Russians wonder why most of the world simply does not trust them.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 01:13 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Rubbish. Everything you have posted in this thread is an attempt to justify post hoc Russia's illegal occupation of the Crimea.

Dave
I Micheall H is not justifing Putin's invasion of the Ukraine, he is doing the best imitation of it I have seen.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 04:56 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So, Michael_H, if Ukraine retakes it's territory in the Crimea and then holds a referendum, you'd happily support the results?
I certainly do not support Ukraine retaking Crimea by using military force and violence, as this would probably imply enormous human suffering and destruction, and I believe Ukraine has already suffered a lot in this war.

Now, let's assume Ukraine has won the battle, and holds a honest referendum right after taking control of Crimea, then I would probably respect Ukraine for such a step.

Note that, during the 2014 referendum, there were Russian soldiers without insignia in Crimea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little...Ukrainian_War)). Similarly, if Ukraine holds a new referendum, it should make its military presence discreet.

It is of course not necessary to wait for the result of a bloody war (which is actually now mostly in a stalemate) to hold a referendum. It would probably be useful that Zelensky and Putin talk about such things even now.

The problem is that Zelensky seems to be obsessed by the idea of a "great Ukraine" (which would imply keeping Russian-speaking population under Ukrainian rule), which, he (probably wrongly) believes he might be able to achieve by relying on Western military and economic power.

The sad reality, however, is that Ukraine is on its way to become the next Iraq or the next Afghanistan.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 06:00 PM   #259
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Why would Ukraine have to hold a referendum? Crimea was illegally annexed and all that a referendum would do is legitimise the illegal one.
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Old 22nd August 2022, 07:15 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Why would Ukraine have to hold a referendum? Crimea was illegally annexed and all that a referendum would do is legitimise the illegal one.
Why?

In order to bring peace, to end this conflict which is painful to many people, not only in Ukraine and Russia, but also in Western Europe for example (think about energy prices, inflation ...).

It would be nice to decide democratically which regions belongs to which country.

Nothing says that state borders have to be eternal, can never change.

In addition, from a legal point of view, the 1954 transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine has been controversial for a long time:
Quote:
Controversies surrounding the legality of the transfer remained a sore point in relations between Ukraine and Russia for the first few years after the breakup of the Soviet Union, and in particular in the internal politics of Crimea.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea).

As far as I know, this transfer wasn't ratified by the parliaments of Russia, Crimea (if any, at the time), and Sevastopol (a large city and port in Crimea which had special status):
Quote:
There was confusion about the status of Sevastopol and whether it was a part of the transfer as it had a degree of independence from the Crimean Oblast and never formally ratified the transfer
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_t...imea#Aftermath).
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Old 23rd August 2022, 12:17 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The problem is that Zelensky seems to be obsessed by the idea of a "great Ukraine" (which would imply keeping Russian-speaking population under Ukrainian rule)...
You are still obsessed with your completely wrong assumption that Russian-speaking Ukrainians want to be Russians.

How can we even begin to take your arguments seriously?
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Old 23rd August 2022, 12:45 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
You are still obsessed with your completely wrong assumption that Russian-speaking Ukrainians want to be Russians.
No, I didn't say such a thing.

Kharkiv is a good example of a very large and industrial city, which is mostly Russian-speaking:
Quote:
Russian is the most common first language in the Donbas and Crimea regions of Ukraine and the city of Kharkiv, and the predominant language in large cities in the eastern and southern portions of the country.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...age_in_Ukraine)
, but generally wants to remain Ukrainian:
Quote:
Gamlet Zinkivskyi grew up speaking Russian in the city of Kharkiv, just like his parents. But when Vladimir Putin launched the invasion of Ukraine on 24 February, it was the final push for him to switch fully to Ukrainian.
(https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...birth-language)

Zelensky wants to conquer Russian-speaking and pro-Russian Crimea using Western weapons and money. I believe he should set more reasonable goals to himself.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 12:51 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I believe he should set more reasonable goals to himself.
Because in bizarro world it's Ukraine that's behaving unreasonably in not wanting to be invaded.

Dave
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Old 23rd August 2022, 01:08 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Because in bizarro world it's Ukraine that's behaving unreasonably in not wanting to be invaded.

Dave
Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.

It's not difficult to understand but, when people becomes too focused on "military heroism", this is a dangerous and toxic situation:
Originally Posted by president Zelensky
Difficult, but so important and necessary VICTORY!
Defending the title of world champion is a symbol that all those who are of Cossack sort will not give up their own, they will fight for it and will definitely win!
(https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/stat...34831991459841)
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Old 23rd August 2022, 01:40 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.
So, again, just cave and submit to all of Russia's demands.

**** that.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 02:39 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Ukraine is not entirely responsible for all the trouble it is currently in, I believe it has had some bad luck, but it should have the courage to make some significant political concessions, which are key for peace (Crimea remains in Russia, neutrality, primacy of democracy and so on), but unfortunately Zelensky doesn't want to hear about that.

It's not difficult to understand but, when people becomes too focused on "military heroism", this is a dangerous and toxic situation:

(https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/stat...34831991459841)
When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:25 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Why?

In order to bring peace, to end this conflict which is painful to many people, not only in Ukraine and Russia, but also in Western Europe for example (think about energy prices, inflation ...).

It would be nice to decide democratically which regions belongs to which country.
It would be nice, which leaves me wondering why you don't support that idea. At no point have you suggested that, rather than invade, Russia ask for a referendum in the regions of Ukraine it is currently occupying, to see what the people there actually want.
Presumably, you should also insist that Russia conduct similar referendums in such regions as Chechnya, which have expressed quite a strong desire to become independent.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:39 AM   #268
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This is the logic that tells a rape victim to just lay back and take it, it'll all be over soon enough.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:52 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In addition, from a legal point of view, the 1954 transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine has been controversial for a long time
"A long time" being "since 2009" if you go by the Wiki article you mentioned. Most of the issues in that region are solely centred around the city of Sevastopol after the collapse of the USSR. Until the dissolution of the USSR, Soviet sources considered Sevastopol to be part of the UkSSR.

Quote:
As far as I know, this transfer wasn't ratified by the parliaments of Russia, Crimea (if any, at the time), and Sevastopol (a large city and port in Crimea which had special status):

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_t...imea#Aftermath).
Crimea and Sevastopol didn't get a say in any of that because the transfer of regions was done at the Union Republic level, Sevastopol, being a city, isn't a Union Republic, and Crimea was only an Autonomous Republic until 1945 (and again in 1991) which also isn't a Union Republic.

The constitutional change the RSFSR made on the 2nd of June 1954 removing Crimea from the list of subdivisions could be considered ratification in the sense that the removal of Crimea from the RSFSR constitution indicates that they assented to the change. This source, which is also in the Wiki articles that you cite, state that post-Soviet Russia accepted the transfer in 1954 in the Belovezh Accords of 1991 and the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 03:55 PM   #270
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Russia Propganda is now openly caliing to get more brutal with Ukraine over the death of Dugin's daughter. I don't want to think about what more brutal might mean.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:41 PM   #271
Michel H
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.
That was in the nineteenth century, probably. They don't seem to be complaining now about being part of the kingdom of Belgium.

Belgium received Kelmis in 1919, as a compensation after World War I losses.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:45 PM   #272
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It would be nice, which leaves me wondering why you don't support that idea. At no point have you suggested that, rather than invade, Russia ask for a referendum in the regions of Ukraine it is currently occupying, to see what the people there actually want.
Referendums have actually already taken place in 2014, in Crimea, and the two Donbass republics (Donetsk and Luhansk).
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:48 PM   #273
Wildy
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And you were supposed to hold a referendum on whether the German speaking regions wanted to stay as part of Belgium but that never happened.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 04:54 PM   #274
Michel H
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So, again, just cave and submit to all of Russia's demands.

**** that.
No, not all of them.

It seems to me that, in a good peace agreement, Russia should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, i.e. these forces should go back to their positions before February 24, 2022.

This would be a major concession from Moscow and a major achievement for Ukraine, I think.

Last edited by Michel H; 23rd August 2022 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 05:04 PM   #275
Wildy
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How is that a concession?
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Old 23rd August 2022, 05:09 PM   #276
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
How is that a concession?
Russian forces should, for example, evacuate Kherson:
Quote:
Kherson is an important port on the Black Sea and on the Dnieper River, and the home of a major ship-building industry. Since March 2022, the city has been occupied by Russian forces following their invasion of Ukraine
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson)
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Old 23rd August 2022, 06:08 PM   #277
Wildy
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That does not answer my question.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 06:21 PM   #278
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
When is Belgium going to resolve it's illegal annexation of the Kelmis area? None of the people living there at the time wanted to become Belgians you know.
They had been working very hard to become their own independant country before annexation by Belgium.
When is France going to resolve its illegal annexation of Britain? None of the Anglo-Saxons wanted to be subservient to Norman kings.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 08:35 PM   #279
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, there is a land connection to mainland Ukraine, while there is no natural land connection to nearby Russia (there is just a bridge).

But I don't think that's an excuse for removing all the blue water, and replacing it by a kind of dark or bluish red (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013). In the present context, this is even a major informational crime, imo, because uninformed people will unmistakably believe there is a long land border between Crimea and mainland Ukraine.

This map was made by the U.S. Institute for the Study of War:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instit...e_Study_of_War).

These corporations may have a financial interest in promoting war.
There is no border between Crimea and Ukraine. Crimea is just Ukraine. There is a Forward Edge of Battle between a foreign army of occupation and Ukrainian forces attempting to expel and invader but that is not a border.
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Old 23rd August 2022, 08:36 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russian forces should, for example, evacuate Kherson:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson)
Russia should for example, evacuate Ukraine and return their forces to pre-2014 locations.
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