IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

Reply
Old 23rd August 2022, 09:57 PM   #281
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,295
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
That was in the nineteenth century, probably. They don't seem to be complaining now about being part of the kingdom of Belgium.

Belgium received Kelmis in 1919, as a compensation after World War I losses.
No. Belgium got other lands more to the east as compensation after the Great War.
The Kelmis area was not part of that. That part Belgium just annexed.
And did never ask the Kelmis people if they wanted to become Belgian. No referendum.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2022, 01:44 PM   #282
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,301
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
No. Belgium got other lands more to the east as compensation after the Great War.
The Kelmis area was not part of that. That part Belgium just annexed.
And did never ask the Kelmis people if they wanted to become Belgian. No referendum.
Well. Germany did not bother to ask the people of Alsace and Lorraine what they wanted back in 1870.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 03:45 PM   #283
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russian forces should, for example, evacuate Kherson:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson)
I was thinking about this non-answer (how exactly is this a concession?) and I realised something. Why is giving up Kherson the go-to example of a concession and not withdrawing from the Zaporizhzhia NPP as an example?
__________________
Wildy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 05:56 PM   #284
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I was thinking about this non-answer (how exactly is this a concession?) and I realised something. Why is giving up Kherson the go-to example of a concession and not withdrawing from the Zaporizhzhia NPP as an example?
According to my suggested peace plan, the Russians should withdraw from the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant too (and this seems to be a good example, in view of the current security risks).

According to my plan, both the Ukrainians and the Russians would make substantial concessions: Ukraine would accept that Crimea is Russian, and the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics, and would remain neutral (no joining NATO), while Russia would withdraw its forces to their February 23 positions, and would have to renounce their rather extreme idea of demilitarizing Ukraine.

Ukraine would have to accept the key idea of ceding territories in order to bring peace, and have a better life again.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 06:39 PM   #285
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
The problem with your "peace plan" is that Russia doesn't make any substantial concessions at all.

Withdrawing to where they were prior to the invasion isn't a concession since they shouldn't be there in the first place.
Renouncing an idea is meaningless since they're to get the thing they want anyway a "neutral" (readro-Russian) Ukraine.
You don't demand they give up their ideas on other territorial ambitions, you don't demand they recognise the legitimacy of the borders of your now reduced Ukraine. You don't expect anything from Russia at all, just reward them for their actions since they illegally annexed Crimea in 2014.

Ukraine on the other hand is expected to take the L in your "concessions". At this point we may as well as why Ukraine should have defended themselves at all.
__________________
Wildy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2022, 10:53 PM   #286
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
According to my suggested peace plan, the Russians should withdraw from the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant too (and this seems to be a good example, in view of the current security risks).

According to my plan, both the Ukrainians and the Russians would make substantial concessions: Ukraine would accept that Crimea is Russian, and the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics, and would remain neutral (no joining NATO), while Russia would withdraw its forces to their February 23 positions, and would have to renounce their rather extreme idea of demilitarizing Ukraine.

Ukraine would have to accept the key idea of ceding territories in order to bring peace, and have a better life again.
Why are you insisting that Russia be allowed to steal Crimea? Ukrainian attacks have resulted in mass exodus of Russians from occupied Crimea. Conventional warfare pressuring from the north while Ukraine continues deep battle in the Russian occupied territories are hollowing out Crimea. Ukraine does not appear to need to concede anything. Did you see that stupid Russian bitch crying about having to leave Crimea after the successful attack the air base? Did you also notice the mass traffic jam on the bridge. What Ukraine is doing is working.

To have peace, Ukraine just needs to keep killing Russians and NATO needs to keep providing the means for Ukrainians to kill Russians.

I'd also note that by 2025, Europe will have largely transitioned to LNG and green hydrogen. The loss of that revenue will finally put Russia in its proper place, stuck in its own borders militarily and economically irrelevant and unable to threaten their neighbors. A subjugated Russia is better for everyone, including Russians.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 07:48 AM   #287
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
The problem with your "peace plan" is that Russia doesn't make any substantial concessions at all.

Withdrawing to where they were prior to the invasion isn't a concession since they shouldn't be there in the first place.
Renouncing an idea is meaningless since they're to get the thing they want anyway a "neutral" (readro-Russian) Ukraine.
You don't demand they give up their ideas on other territorial ambitions, you don't demand they recognise the legitimacy of the borders of your now reduced Ukraine. You don't expect anything from Russia at all, just reward them for their actions since they illegally annexed Crimea in 2014.

Ukraine on the other hand is expected to take the L in your "concessions". At this point we may as well as why Ukraine should have defended themselves at all.
Quote:
Withdrawing to where they were prior to the invasion isn't a concession since they shouldn't be there in the first place.
I disagree. The Russians currently control Kherson and the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. If they volontarily withdraw from these places after a reasonable peace plan (and the refugees return), this is clearly a significant concession. If no peace plan is agreed, these places might become Russian territory, and Ukraine would lose a major power plant.
Quote:
You don't demand they give up their ideas on other territorial ambitions, you don't demand they recognise the legitimacy of the borders of your now reduced Ukraine.
According to my plan, Russia should give up any other territorial claims they might have in Ukraine (Ukraine would just lose Crimea, and the pre-invasion Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics). The Russians should not try to restore the USSR by using military force. In addition, sanctions should be lifted.
Quote:
You don't expect anything from Russia at all, just reward them for their actions since they illegally annexed Crimea in 2014.
I expect them to withdraw to pre-February 24 lines (again, a very big concession, in practise). I believe Ukraine and the West made a big mistake by heavily sanctioning Crimea and Russia after the former joined the latter in 2014, after a democratic process (even if that process wasn't quite perfect and ideal). In principle, nobody should be punished for respecting democracy.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 08:08 AM   #288
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why are you insisting that Russia be allowed to steal Crimea? Ukrainian attacks have resulted in mass exodus of Russians from occupied Crimea. Conventional warfare pressuring from the north while Ukraine continues deep battle in the Russian occupied territories are hollowing out Crimea. Ukraine does not appear to need to concede anything. Did you see that stupid Russian bitch crying about having to leave Crimea after the successful attack the air base? Did you also notice the mass traffic jam on the bridge. What Ukraine is doing is working.

To have peace, Ukraine just needs to keep killing Russians and NATO needs to keep providing the means for Ukrainians to kill Russians.

I'd also note that by 2025, Europe will have largely transitioned to LNG and green hydrogen. The loss of that revenue will finally put Russia in its proper place, stuck in its own borders militarily and economically irrelevant and unable to threaten their neighbors. A subjugated Russia is better for everyone, including Russians.
Quote:
Why are you insisting that Russia be allowed to steal Crimea?
I wouldn't use the word "steal", since there was a more or less serious referendum (in addition to some legal controversies about whether the 1954 transfer to Ukraine was valid).
Quote:
What Ukraine is doing is working.
Ukraine has certainly been able (with Western support) to cause many worries for Vladimir Putin lately, but this current war is very painful for many Ukrainians (refugees or not):
Quote:
Ukraine war: Russia railway station strike kills 25, injures dozens (August 25, 2022)
(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62666188).
, and for many people in Western Europe who have difficulties paying their energy bills:
Quote:
'Lives at risk' without more help on energy bills
(https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62674301).

A good peace deal to end this war would therefore be useful, even though we don't hear much of such a thing nowadays.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 08:56 AM   #289
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I disagree. The Russians currently control Kherson and the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. If they volontarily withdraw from these places after a reasonable peace plan (and the refugees return), this is clearly a significant concession.
In the same way an armed robber voluntarily withdraws their weapon after you hand them all your valuables.

Quote:
According to my plan, Russia should give up any other territorial claims they might have in Ukraine (Ukraine would just lose Crimea, and the pre-invasion Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics).
Oh, so the puppet republics won't be giving up their claims to the parts of Donetsk and Luhansk that Russia would be required to withdraw from. Then when those republics "choose" to join Russia, they'd get the territorial claims back because they'd get them from an "independent" country instead.

Quote:
I expect them to withdraw to pre-February 24 lines (again, a very big concession, in practise). I believe Ukraine and the West made a big mistake by heavily sanctioning Crimea and Russia after the former joined the latter in 2014, after a democratic process (even if that process wasn't quite perfect and ideal). In principle, nobody should be punished for respecting democracy.
An illegal process. Crimea joined Russia in an illegal process. You seem to enjoy ignoring that part of the whole thing.
__________________
Wildy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 09:06 AM   #290
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
An illegal process. Crimea joined Russia in an illegal process. You seem to enjoy ignoring that part of the whole thing.
Quote:
Controversies surrounding the legality of the (1954) transfer remained a sore point in relations between Ukraine and Russia for the first few years after the breakup of the Soviet Union, and in particular in the internal politics of Crimea.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_t...imea#Aftermath)

Quote:
The right of a people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination)

Last edited by Michel H; 26th August 2022 at 09:19 AM.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 12:22 PM   #291
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,301
Funny how "Peace At Any Price" never leads to any substantial Peace, isn;t it?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 12:55 PM   #292
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Funny how "Peace At Any Price" never leads to any substantial Peace, isn;t it?
It can lead to substantial and long-lasting peace when you are consistent in your principles of non-violence, advocated by respected people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi:
Quote:
Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Six Principles of Nonviolence are:

Principle one: Nonviolence is a way of life for courageous people. ...

Principle three: Nonviolence seeks to defeat injustice, not people.
(https://www.unodc.org/documents/e4j/...n-Violence.pdf)


I am not recommending peace at any price, I am trying to advise peace with dignity, where all parties can feel (to some extent) proud and happy. We are all citizens.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 01:34 PM   #293
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 47,307
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It can lead to substantial and long-lasting peace when you are consistent in your principles of non-violence, advocated by respected people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi:

(https://www.unodc.org/documents/e4j/...n-Violence.pdf)


I am not recommending peace at any price, I am trying to advise peace with dignity, where all parties can feel (to some extent) proud and happy. We are all citizens.
The Russians have nothing to be proud or happy about, they are murderous barbarians that should be wiped from the face of the Earth itself, and nothing short of that can be considered acceptable at this point.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 02:13 PM   #294
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It can lead to substantial and long-lasting peace when you are consistent in your principles of non-violence, advocated by respected people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi:
The nonviolence advocated by King and Gandhi depends entirely on having a regime and a society that are generally amenable to human rights and humanitarian impulses. Nonviolence in Nazi Germany didn't serve its victims very well at all.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 02:24 PM   #295
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The nonviolence advocated by King and Gandhi depends entirely on having a regime and a society that are generally amenable to human rights and humanitarian impulses. Nonviolence in Nazi Germany didn't serve its victims very well at all.
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.

The same cannot be said about the U.S. and U.K. at the end of WWII (think about Hiroshima, for example).
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:07 PM   #296
junkshop
Graduate Poster
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Outside, wishing I were still inside.
Posts: 1,158
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.

The same cannot be said about the U.S. and U.K. at the end of WWII (think about Hiroshima, for example).
And yet Russia has targeted hospitals, shopping malls, theatres and apartment buildings.

Russian publicly stated 'official policy' is a lie

WWII ended nearly 80 years ago. Decisions made by long dead leaders in that conflict, for good or ill, are irrelevant to Russia's current, unprovoked invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
__________________
Not a Cockney.
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:11 PM   #297
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 47,307
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:22 PM   #298
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.

The same cannot be said about the U.S. and U.K. at the end of WWII (think about Hiroshima, for example).
Are you joking? Putin's strategy, in every theater of war, is based almost exclusively on targeting and pulverizing civilians... including Ukraine. The only reason for the current half- hearted masquerade is the international media intensity.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:27 PM   #299
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It can lead to substantial and long-lasting peace when you are consistent in your principles of non-violence, advocated by respected people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi:
The strategy employed by King and Gandhi requires an enemy that can be shamed. Such is not the case here.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:52 PM   #300
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I wouldn't use the word "steal", since there was a more or less serious referendum (in addition to some legal controversies about whether the 1954 transfer to Ukraine was valid).

Ukraine has certainly been able (with Western support) to cause many worries for Vladimir Putin lately, but this current war is very painful for many Ukrainians (refugees or not):

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62666188).
, and for many people in Western Europe who have difficulties paying their energy bills:

(https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62674301).

A good peace deal to end this war would therefore be useful, even though we don't hear much of such a thing nowadays.
There was no referendum. The only country with the authority to hold any sort of election in Ukraine is Ukraine. When did Ukraine call for a referendum in Crimea?
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.

Last edited by Craig4; 26th August 2022 at 03:54 PM.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:53 PM   #301
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.

The same cannot be said about the U.S. and U.K. at the end of WWII (think about Hiroshima, for example).
You are a liar. Russia does have a policy of targeting civilians. How many humanitarian convoys came under Russian fire early in the war? Lots.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 03:54 PM   #302
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
And yet Russia has targeted hospitals, shopping malls, theatres and apartment buildings.

Russian publicly stated 'official policy' is a lie
It's actually not so simple, I think:
Quote:
Fascinating claimed intercepted call from Russian officer near Mykolaiv to superiors in Russia. He says:
- This is worse than Chechnya
- 50% of troops have frostbite
- They can’t evacuate the dead
- Don’t have enough tents
...
- Troops don’t have body armor. When one complained to commander was told “son, be strong”
- This special operation is a “madhouse”
- Being told not to destroy buildings - it’s insanity. Unless we destroy everything and turn into dirt along with the civilians, nothing can happen
(http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13764095).
So, it seems that this order of not destroying buildings was really given, it is more than just a Russian official claim.

Of course, we know that Ukrainian civilian infrastructure has been hit many times, and I suspect many of these hits have been deliberate, or partly deliberate (by ignoring well known risks for civilians).

But the damage could probably have been a lot worse if Russian official policy had been stating that attacks on Ukrainian cities are allowed. The U.S. nuked Hiroshima with no real Jepanese threat, and is generally proud of it:
Quote:
In the spring of 1953, the city of North Las Vegas chose Paula Harris as Miss North Las Vegas of 1953 and gave her the nickname "Miss A-Bomb".
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_A...iss_Atomics%22).
But Moscow did not nuke Kiev, even though it has the technical ability to do it. Russia could (technically) do it, and destroy the office where president Zelensky makes his phone calls to many world leaders, but it (fortunately) doesn't, in spite of all the "sanctions" against them.
Quote:
WWII ended nearly 80 years ago. Decisions made by long dead leaders in that conflict, for good or ill, are irrelevant to Russia's current, unprovoked invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Oh no, I think WWII is still hugely influential. UK leaders have still an unfortunate tendency to base their decisions on their understanding and conclusions about this war, with unfortunately terrible consequences for their citizens who have to pay their energy bills.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 04:15 PM   #303
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Russian claims don't matter. It only matters what they do and what they are doing is targeting civilians. Why do you keep mentioning what Russians say? What Russians say doesn't count for anything.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 04:25 PM   #304
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Russian claims don't matter. It only matters what they do and what they are doing is targeting civilians. Why do you keep mentioning what Russians say? What Russians say doesn't count for anything.
Don't be a racist, show some respect.

It is important to study what the Russians say (publicly or secretly) in order to understand their psychology, what they do and what they will probably do.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 04:30 PM   #305
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Don't be a racist, show some respect.

It is important to study what the Russians say (publicly or secretly) in order to understand their psychology, what they do and what they will probably do.
When did the scum earn respect? You've seen what those pigs are doing in Ukraine. The only good Russian soldier is a dead Russian soldier. Their demonstrated depravity tells us all we need to know about their psychology.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.

Last edited by Craig4; 26th August 2022 at 04:37 PM.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 04:47 PM   #306
Michel H
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3,023
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
When did they earn respect? (the Russians)
Perhaps when they decided to not target "officially" civilians in Ukraine, or when they decided to retreat from the vicinity of Kiev in April.

Or when Russian soldiers acted to restore the supply of fresh water to Crimea: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/.

Or when Russia decided to create Russia Today, providing information in English free of charge for all (with a possibility of posting comments, which is something which is generally not possible on BBC News, the Guardian, or the New York Times for example).

The Russians who dared to criticize the invasion of Ukraine, in spite of the great risks for them personally, may also deserve respect.

Last edited by Michel H; 26th August 2022 at 04:56 PM.
Michel H is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 04:53 PM   #307
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Perhaps when they decided to not target "officially" civilians in Ukraine, or when they decided to retreat from the vicinity of Kiev in April.

Or when they decided to create Russia Today, providing information in English free of charge for all (with a possibility of posting comments, which is something which is generally not possible on BBC News, the Guardian, or the New York Times for example).

The Russians who dared to criticize the invasion of Ukraine, in spite of the great risks for them personally, may also deserve respect.
The bastards did target civilians just today. Free yak vomit is still yak vomit so no respect because of Russia today.

Russians who oppose the war and its attendant genocide do deserve respect.

Apologists for Russia's genocide don't; even when they claim to be against it.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 05:03 PM   #308
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,301
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
And yet Russia has targeted hospitals, shopping malls, theatres and apartment buildings.

Russian publicly stated 'official policy' is a lie

WWII ended nearly 80 years ago. Decisions made by long dead leaders in that conflict, for good or ill, are irrelevant to Russia's current, unprovoked invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
You missed the most evil example of all..those mass graves found on the outskirts of Kiev.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 05:35 PM   #309
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 19,521
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Don't be a racist, show some respect.

It is important to study what the Russians say (publicly or secretly) in order to understand their psychology, what they do and what they will probably do.

We have studied what the Russians say, as well as what they do. That's how we know what they're lying about.
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 05:51 PM   #310
junkshop
Graduate Poster
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Outside, wishing I were still inside.
Posts: 1,158
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Russia has an official policy of not targeting civilians in this current conflict.

The same cannot be said about the U.S. and U.K. at the end of WWII (think about Hiroshima, for example).

And yet Russia has targeted hospitals, shopping malls, theatres and apartment buildings.

Russian publicly stated 'official policy' is a lie

WWII ended nearly 80 years ago. Decisions made by long dead leaders in that conflict, for good or ill, are irrelevant to Russia's current, unprovoked invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It's actually not so simple, I think:

(http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13764095).
So, it seems that this order of not destroying buildings was really given, it is more than just a Russian official claim.

An unverified claim on Twitter of an intercepteted Russian 'phone call is your evidence for Russian orders?

ETA: As dudalb pointed out, I forgot to mention the mass graves of butchered civilians that these righteous Russian defenders have left in their wake, like the great liberators that they are.


Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Of course, we know that Ukrainian civilian infrastructure has been hit many times, and I suspect many of these hits have been deliberate, or partly deliberate (by ignoring well known risks for civilians).

But the damage could probably have been a lot worse if Russian official policy had been stating that attacks on Ukrainian cities are allowed

Which would suggest that either the 'official policy' is bollocks, or that the Russian command has lost control of their troops.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The U.S. nuked Hiroshima with no real Jepanese threat, and is generally proud of it:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_A...iss_Atomics%22).

Utterly irrelevant. Are the USA or Japan combatants in this conflict, that is happening now, in this century? No, no they are not.

As regards the highlighted and your link, you have only shown that Las Vegas promoters thought this would be popular in the early to mid 1950s (60 odd years ago).

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But Moscow did not nuke Kiev, even though it has the technical ability to do it. Russia could (technically) do it...

Well, thank **** for that. At present there are limits to their ******* barbarity.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
...and destroy the office where president Zelensky makes his phone calls to many world leaders, but it (fortunately) doesn't, in spite of all the "sanctions" against them.

My god,! How dare he speak to other heads of state! Burn nuke the witch!

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Oh no, I think WWII is still hugely influential. UK leaders have still an unfortunate tendency to base their decisions on their understanding and conclusions about this war...

Citation needed.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong about this bit, but maybe you could provide a relevant example? IMO our recent (and awful) PMs' have more of a tendency to hark back to the days of Empire, when three-quarters of the globe was pink, and all was well with the world, because Johnny Foreigner knew his place, damnit!
__________________
Not a Cockney.

Last edited by junkshop; 26th August 2022 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Reminded by dudalb of an omission
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 09:37 PM   #311
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,278
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You are a liar. Russia does have a policy of targeting civilians. How many humanitarian convoys came under Russian fire early in the war? Lots.
He may also be a liar, but it's also important to pay attention to details. Russia probably does have an official policy not to target civilians, which some Russians do follow. Russia fairly certainly also has official armed forces policy regarding, well, not being horribly corrupt, not raping fellow soldiers, what the chain of command should be... having official policy doesn't mean all that much if it's not enforced properly, but that unofficial actually followed policy is different doesn't make someone pointing out what official policy is a liar. A dissembler or deceiver, perhaps, but that's slightly different.

Either way, when it comes to targeting civilians, I think that the Russian civilians that Russia targets in Russia should absolutely be kept in mind, not just the Ukrainian civilians, when it comes to the more general claim that Russia isn't targeting civilians. The targeting may be a little different in nature, but it's also quite serious in nature.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 26th August 2022 at 09:39 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 09:47 PM   #312
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,519
I have a general question to Michel H before going into this. Do you actually read the articles properly when you cite them or do you stop when you find the bit you want?

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_t...imea#Aftermath)
Quote:
Controversies surrounding the legality of the (1954) transfer remained a sore point in relations between Ukraine and Russia for the first few years after the breakup of the Soviet Union, and in particular in the internal politics of Crimea.
And if you read the rest of the section you'll see that it talks about Russia accepting the status of Crimea under the Belovezh accords.

That accord states:

Originally Posted by Art. 5, Belovezh Accords
The High Contracting Parties acknowledge and respect each other's territorial integrity and the inviolability of existing borders within the Commonwealth
(Side note: Commonwealth here refers to the CIS, which was created in this treaty)

Your Wikipedia link also states:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, 1954 Transfer of Crimea - Aftermath
In 1994, a Russian nationalist administration under Yuriy Meshkov took over in Crimea with the promise to return Crimea to Russia, although these plans were later shelved. However, in a 1997 treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, Russia recognized Ukraine's borders, and accepted Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea. The treaty expired on 31 March 2019.
Wondering why the treaty expired in 2019? Because Ukraine chose not to renew it because a certain party to the treaty with a red white and blue tricolour flag decided that Article 2 of the treaty respecting the boundaries didn't matter and annexed part of Ukraine.

Now these aren't the only treaties that Russia entered in to respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

Article 1 of the Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons states:

Originally Posted by Art 1, Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
[Russia], [the UK], and [the US], reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
(Highlighting mine, full names of countries changed)

Besides, you don't even go into the reason why Russia started claiming that the transfer was illegal. It has absolutely nothing to do with self-determination or the rights of Russians in Ukrainian territory. It's entirely down to control of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet which was stationed in Sevastopol. Russia of course wanted the fleet, but the naval facilities were officially part of Ukraine. What they wanted was to control the fleet and the facilities. Instead what happened was the two countries signed the Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet giving Russia most of the fleet and allowing them to rent the facilities for a period of 20 years until 2017, which was increased to 2042 after the Kharkiv Accord in 2010.

Quote:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination)
Quote:
The right of a people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law
Also from that article:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, Self-determination
The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, nor what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation. Neither does it state what the delimitation between peoples should be—nor what constitutes a people. There are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia, Self-determination: Current Issues - Self Determination vs territorial integrity
According to the Helsinki Final Act of 1975, the UN, ICJ and international law experts, there is no contradiction between the principles of self-determination and territorial integrity, with the latter taking precedence.
Note it says, the latter, meaning territorial integrity takes precedence over self-determination.

Since it's been determined under multiple treaties that Crimea belongs to Ukraine, you have to show how the secession of Crimea is legal under Ukrainian law. Good luck with that since the Ukrainian courts have already deemed it illegal under their laws.
__________________
Wildy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 09:51 PM   #313
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 9,278
Just to poke at something worthy of an eye roll...

Quote:
Meanwhile on Russian state TV: "But how come Hunter Biden is getting away with everything?"
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2022, 11:48 PM   #314
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,160
Russia Today exists to give talking points to their international, scummy, pro-genocide apologists who for their own depraved reasons, back a regime under which it's unlikely they'd want to live.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th August 2022, 01:36 AM   #315
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 6,273
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It would be nice, which leaves me wondering why you don't support that idea. At no point have you suggested that, rather than invade, Russia ask for a referendum in the regions of Ukraine it is currently occupying, to see what the people there actually want.
Presumably, you should also insist that Russia conduct similar referendums in such regions as Chechnya, which have expressed quite a strong desire to become independent.
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Referendums have actually already taken place in 2014, in Crimea, and the two Donbass republics (Donetsk and Luhansk).
You missed the highlighted part. If Russia was genuinely concerned with the wellbeing of the citizens of the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, they could have pressured for referendums, e.g. through the UN.
They didn't. They invaded, thus causing death and suffering for the very people they supposedly want to protect.
If, on the other hand, the invasions were more about imperialism and military prestige, then it makes more sense to invade first and set up post hoc justifications (i.e. rigged referendums) after.
So, Michel H: can you explain why Russia did not try to organise referendums first, rather than employing military means first?
__________________
'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt

Cosmic Yak on this forum.
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2022, 01:57 AM   #316
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 27,442
Cross quoting because it is entirely relevant here as well as the original thread.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Great article from Foreign Affairs about Putin's real motivation for the war. Well worth reading in its entirety.
Vladimir Putin is determined to shape the future to look like his version of the past. Russia’s president invaded Ukraine not because he felt threatened by NATO expansion or by Western “provocations.” He ordered his “special military operation” because he believes that it is Russia’s divine right to rule Ukraine, to wipe out the country’s national identity, and to integrate its people into a Greater Russia.

He laid out this mission in a 5,000-word treatise, published in July 2021, entitled, “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians.” In it, Putin insisted that Belarusians, Russians, and Ukrainians are all descendants of the Rus, an ancient people who settled the lands between the Black and Baltic Seas. He asserted that they are bound together by a common territory and language and the Orthodox Christian faith. In his version of history, Ukraine has never been sovereign, except for a few historical interludes when it tried—and failed—to become an independent state. Putin wrote that “Russia was robbed” of core territory when the Bolsheviks created the Soviet Union in 1922 and established a Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. In his telling, since the Soviet collapse, the West has used Ukraine as a platform to threaten Russia, and it has supported the rise of “neo-Nazis” there. Putin’s essay, which every soldier sent to Ukraine is supposed to carry, ends by asserting that Ukraine can only be sovereign in partnership with Russia. “We are one people,” Putin declares.
The hilited somehow reminds me of another famous irredentist.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

Last edited by jimbob; 28th August 2022 at 01:59 AM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2022, 09:42 AM   #317
ginjawarrior
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 298
https://mobile.twitter.com/den_kazan...53741697916928
ginjawarrior is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2022, 10:44 AM   #318
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
I'm impressed with how clean that skull looks, for something that was attached to a healthy torso just a couple months back. Makes me wonder how come the Russian troops apparently have carcass butchering and cleaning service deployed with them.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2022, 11:13 AM   #319
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,923
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm impressed with how clean that skull looks, for something that was attached to a healthy torso just a couple months back. Makes me wonder how come the Russian troops apparently have carcass butchering and cleaning service deployed with them.
Wat?
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th August 2022, 11:32 AM   #320
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 61,494
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Wat?
"I'm impressed with how clean that skull looks, for something that was attached to a healthy torso just a couple months back. Makes me wonder how come the Russian troops apparently have carcass butchering and cleaning service deployed with them."

Was there something specific about the phrasing or the concepts presented that is confusing to you?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.