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Tags genocide charges , propaganda , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war

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Old 28th August 2022, 12:33 PM   #321
Aridas
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I'm impressed with how clean that skull looks, for something that was attached to a healthy torso just a couple months back. Makes me wonder how come the Russian troops apparently have carcass butchering and cleaning service deployed with them."

Was there something specific about the phrasing or the concepts presented that is confusing to you?
Might not have looked at the twitter link right before that so it looked like it was coming out of nowhere?

The link should have had at least some of the actual tweet, though, to be fair.

To quote it, albeit without the video -

Quote:
Russian mercenary Igor Mangushev (Bereg) made a performance with the skull of a Ukrainian soldier killed near Azovstal.

In his speech, Mangushev said that Russia is at war with the Ukrainian idea, so all Ukrainians must be killed.

Still think trading with Russia is a good idea?
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Last edited by Aridas; 28th August 2022 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 28th August 2022, 07:41 PM   #322
Michel H
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Citation needed.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong about this bit, but maybe you could provide a relevant example? IMO our recent (and awful) PMs' have more of a tendency to hark back to the days of Empire, when three-quarters of the globe was pink, and all was well with the world, because Johnny Foreigner knew his place, damnit!
I believe there is a fairly obvious analogy between the UK trying to rescue Poland in 1939, and the UK trying to rescue Ukraine this year.

I also believe that, instead of providing a lot of weapons and money to Ukraine, which makes this country feel overconfident, and reject any reasonable compromise, the West should instead force Ukraine to renounce the parts of Ukraine which don't want to be Ukrainian.

This should lead to a quick peace, and alleviate economic suffering caused by high energy bills.

Last edited by Michel H; 28th August 2022 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 28th August 2022, 07:42 PM   #323
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First find the parts that don't want to be Ukrainian. Referendums carried out by an occupying force don't count.
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Old 28th August 2022, 07:50 PM   #324
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You missed the highlighted part. If Russia was genuinely concerned with the wellbeing of the citizens of the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk, they could have pressured for referendums, e.g. through the UN.
They didn't. They invaded, thus causing death and suffering for the very people they supposedly want to protect.
If, on the other hand, the invasions were more about imperialism and military prestige, then it makes more sense to invade first and set up post hoc justifications (i.e. rigged referendums) after.
So, Michel H: can you explain why Russia did not try to organise referendums first, rather than employing military means first?
I don't think that the referendums in Crimea and in the two people's republics were rigged (especially in Crimea). Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were not part of Russia when the referendums took place in 2014.

However, if there is any doubt about the results, the referendums could be repeated under better international supervision.

Last edited by Michel H; 28th August 2022 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 28th August 2022, 07:57 PM   #325
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
First find the parts that don't want to be Ukrainian. Referendums carried out by an occupying force don't count.
See this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls , and the first two minutes of this video by the BBC (which is not pro-Russian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.
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Old 28th August 2022, 09:32 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't think that the referendums in Crimea and in the two people's republics were rigged (especially in Crimea). Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were not part of Russia when the referendums took place in 2014.

However, if there is any doubt about the results, the referendums could be repeated under better international supervision.
A good start.

Of course, international supervision is only possible once Russia leaves those areas.
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Old 28th August 2022, 09:54 PM   #327
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
A good start.

Of course, international supervision is only possible once Russia leaves those areas.
This doesn't seem necessary to me, as long as supervisors can do their job unimpeded.

For example, Rafael Grossi said on Twitter, one hour ago:
Quote:
The day has come, @IAEAorg's Support and Assistance Mission to #Zaporizhzhya (ISAMZ) is now on its way. We must protect the safety and security of #Ukraine’s and Europe’s biggest nuclear facility. Proud to lead this mission which will be in #ZNPP later this week.
(https://twitter.com/rafaelmgrossi/st...96717397659649)

The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant is in territory occupied by Russia, but this shouldn't prevent international nuclear inspectors from doing their work.
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Old 28th August 2022, 10:12 PM   #328
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This doesn't seem necessary to me, as long as supervisors can do their job unimpeded.

For example, Rafael Grossi said on Twitter, one hour ago:

(https://twitter.com/rafaelmgrossi/st...96717397659649)

The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant is in territory occupied by Russia, but this shouldn't prevent international nuclear inspectors from doing their work.
So long as Russia is using it as a military base and thus keeping explosives in very dangerous areas, Russia is making it wildly unsafe.

Still, international supervision, if Russia actually cooperates, will hopefully make things at least marginally better.
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Old 28th August 2022, 11:09 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
A good start.

Of course, international supervision is only possible once Russia leaves those areas.
Of course those areas have been ethnically cleansed since 2014 so the results may be different to pre-2014
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Old 28th August 2022, 11:41 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course those areas have been ethnically cleansed since 2014 so the results may be different to pre-2014
People who can prove they have been forced to leave, and who want to come back, should probably be allowed to participate in the new poll.
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Old 28th August 2022, 11:57 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't think that the referendums in Crimea and in the two people's republics were rigged (especially in Crimea).
Yes, I know. The fact that the international community does, doesn't bother you one bit, does it?

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were not part of Russia when the referendums took place in 2014.
Are you denying that the referendum in Crimea took place after the Russians had seized it?
You are still missing my point about Donetsk and Luhansk:
Why could Russia not have asked for referendums before invading? Why attack a place you claim to be trying to protect? Why do you not support the idea of peace over war?

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
However, if there is any doubt about the results, the referendums could be repeated under better international supervision.
Have there been referendums in the occupied parts of Ukraine yet?
If those areas vote to remain in Ukraine, and Russia disputes that- as it inevitably will- will you reject the results of those referendums? The international community has, after all, disputed the result of the Crimean referendum, but you insist it was fine. Looks to me like you will only accept a pro-Russian result.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:21 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't think that the referendums in Crimea and in the two people's republics were rigged (especially in Crimea). Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were not part of Russia when the referendums took place in 2014.

However, if there is any doubt about the results, the referendums could be repeated under better international supervision.
Yes. They were legally part of Ukraine and for those referendums to be legitimate means that they have to be legal under Ukrainian law. Were they legal under Ukrainian law?
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:41 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Yes, I know. The fact that the international community does, doesn't bother you one bit, does it?
I think that the international community has a tendency to be biased and unfair to Russia.
Quote:
Are you denying that the referendum in Crimea took place after the Russians had seized it?
You are still missing my point about Donetsk and Luhansk:
Why could Russia not have asked for referendums before invading? Why attack a place you claim to be trying to protect? Why do you not support the idea of peace over war?
There were Russian troops without their military uniforms in Crimea and (probably) also in both Donbass republics when the referendums took place. But these "friendly" soldiers did not prevent citizens to vote freely.
Quote:
Have there been referendums in the occupied parts of Ukraine yet?
If those areas vote to remain in Ukraine, and Russia disputes that- as it inevitably will- will you reject the results of those referendums? The international community has, after all, disputed the result of the Crimean referendum, but you insist it was fine. Looks to me like you will only accept a pro-Russian result.
When you write "occupied parts of Ukraine", do you mean "recently occupied parts of Ukraine"? (like Kherson for example, I suppose this is what you mean).
I didn't think about holding referendums there, but this is perhaps something Russia would like and demand to do. In a sense, your ideas seem to be more lenient towards Russia than mine.
Obviously, results of referendums should be respected. In my opinion, Ukraine should regain control of Kherson, but not of Donetsk and Crimea. I cannot, however, say with certainty what the results of new referendums would be.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:45 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Yes. They were legally part of Ukraine and for those referendums to be legitimate means that they have to be legal under Ukrainian law. Were they legal under Ukrainian law?
What is more important, in my opinion, is that the referendums were honest and fair, and that the results faithfully reflected the views of the people.

Last edited by Michel H; 29th August 2022 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 29th August 2022, 01:01 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
What is more important, in my opinion, is that the referendums were honest and fair, and the the results faithfully reflected the views of the people.
Unfortunately, in the real world in which we live in, that's not how that works at all. If your ideal was indeed reality then we'd could look at the international relations between the world and the independent countries of Catalonia and Kurdistan.
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Old 29th August 2022, 01:31 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Unfortunately, in the real world in which we live in, that's not how that works at all. If your ideal was indeed reality then we'd could look at the international relations between the world and the independent countries of Catalonia and Kurdistan.
Not quite, this would be a simplistic analysis.

In Spain for example, there is no civil war, and I believe relations between Catalonia and the central government have improved with the "new" (actually, since 2018) socialist Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez.
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:03 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not quite, this would be a simplistic analysis.

In Spain for example, there is no civil war, and I believe relations between Catalonia and the central government have improved with the "new" (actually, since 2018) socialist Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez.
Oh, so the most important thing in your opinion is that the referendums were honest and fair, the results faithfully reflected the views of the people, and there's a civil war going on?

Is that why you ignored the Kurdistan vote? Because it's too much like a civil war, or is it that it's not enough like a civil war for it to be legitimate in your mind?
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:23 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
See this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls , and the first two minutes of this video by the BBC (which is not pro-Russian): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.
Doesn't matter. There was no referendum. The only authority that can hold an election in Ukraine is the Ukrainian government. Also, the polls are post Russian unlawful occupation so they are meaningless. We know the depravity and barbarity Russians are capable of. We've seen it demonstrated. No poll under the occupation of their kind can have any meaning whatsoever.
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:42 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Oh, so the most important thing in your opinion is that the referendums were honest and fair, the results faithfully reflected the views of the people, and there's a civil war going on?

Is that why you ignored the Kurdistan vote? Because it's too much like a civil war, or is it that it's not enough like a civil war for it to be legitimate in your mind?
It seems to me that it would be good that Erdoğan grants some autonomy to Turkish Kurdistan, like this has been done in Iraq, for example. This would be good for peace, and also for the Turkish economy.

Erdoğan is a fairly authoritarian leader, but I believe he plays a useful role in the current Ukraine-Russia conflict, where is appears as a moderate, trying to be on good terms with both Ukraine and Russia.
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Old 29th August 2022, 04:04 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems to me that it would be good that Erdoğan grants some autonomy to Turkish Kurdistan, like this has been done in Iraq, for example. This would be good for peace, and also for the Turkish economy.
What does any of this have to do with Iraqi Kurdistan holding a referendum that voted in favour of independence from Iraq? Why is it that you don't accept Kurdish independence but will accept the "independence" of obvious puppet states?

But if you're going to take this route, why didn't the Autonomous Republic of Crimea ask for greater autonomy within Ukraine instead of holding a referendum that was deemed illegal by the Ukrainian courts? Wouldn't that have been good for peace and the Ukrainian economy as a whole?
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Old 29th August 2022, 04:58 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
People who can prove they have been forced to leave, and who want to come back, should probably be allowed to participate in the new poll.
Do you really imagine the people who fled West from Donbas due to fear or intimidation are going to feel safe to return to their Russian-occupied town and vote? Do you really imagine the people who were "evacuated" East into goodness knows what distant part of the Russian federation are going to be free to travel back to Ukraine and vote? Of course not.
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:36 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
What does any of this have to do with Iraqi Kurdistan holding a referendum that voted in favour of independence from Iraq? Why is it that you don't accept Kurdish independence but will accept the "independence" of obvious puppet states?

But if you're going to take this route, why didn't the Autonomous Republic of Crimea ask for greater autonomy within Ukraine instead of holding a referendum that was deemed illegal by the Ukrainian courts? Wouldn't that have been good for peace and the Ukrainian economy as a whole?
One problem about a possible independence of Iraqi Kurdistan (from what I understand) is that Iraqi Kurdistan has a lot of oil, while Iraq is very poor, courtesy of U.S. invasion. There is also some concern about local minorities (Arab minorities, in particular).

I don't think that independence should be granted automatically after a referendum approving it (context does matter). It should be more a last resort, people should first try to get along, to cooperate. There is always a danger that rich regions want to take their independence, while poor regions are left alone, facing even greater poverty.

In addition, there has been some collaboration between Iraqi Kurds and the central government of Iraq to fight the Islamic State. The relations may therefore not be as bad as in Ukraine, when a civil war has been taking place since 2014.

I don't see any benefit in restoring Ukrainian sovereignty on Crimea (though one can say that there is some geographical logic in this): they speak a different language, Ukraine has a history of trying to impose its own language, the referendum has shown strong support for joining Russia, Crimea is by no means essential for the Ukrainian economy, they are now fighting a very violent war, Ukraine has imposed a number of "sanctions", cutting off for example the supply of fresh water through the North Crimean canal in 2014. How can you like a government which suddenly cuts off 85% of your fresh water, for political reasons, because it cannot stand that you leave?
In addition, Crimea has a history of being part of Russia for a long time.

On the other hand, accepting the results of the 2014 referendum (and the annexation) would have probably have great benefits for Ukraine (and affordable energy needing Western Europe), which, partly manipulated by the US-UK-EU axis is being gradually destroyed by the war, on its way to become the next Afghanistan, because such an acceptance could help stopping the current war.

In addition, the decision to join Russia could always be reversed later, we don't know what will happen in a century. It is possible that, in a few years' time, Crimeans will get weary of the lack of democracy in Russia, and of the dubious actions of its "security services", and will want to become closer to Western Europe. It is not impossible that the Russian Federation might one day disintegrate the way the Soviet Union did.
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:46 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
People who can prove they have been forced to leave, and who want to come back, should probably be allowed to participate in the new poll.

That could prove difficult for the ones who are dead.
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:48 AM   #344
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Russia could withdraw, start fostering diplomatic relations with Ukraine, strive for peace in the disputed regions, then get a legal referendum a decade or so from now. Crazy, I know.
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:50 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Do you really imagine the people who fled West from Donbas due to fear or intimidation are going to feel safe to return to their Russian-occupied town and vote? Do you really imagine the people who were "evacuated" East into goodness knows what distant part of the Russian federation are going to be free to travel back to Ukraine and vote? Of course not.
I believe all of this is possible if this is discussed among civilized gentlemen (and ladies).

Nuclear inspectors are going to come very soon to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, which is located in territory occupied by Russia. They don't seem to be terrified of meeting these "horrible and so barbaric Russians". On the contrary, they are legitimately proud of their contribution to peace and security.

And even if referendums are not quite totally perfect, an imperfect referendum is probably far better than people being constantly busy insulting and/or trying to kill each other every day. Nothing is gained by constantly demonizing Russians.
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:51 AM   #346
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https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narrative...the-hahaganda/

Quote:
Narrative number 5: ‘The Hahaganda’
A final resort in disinformation, typically when confronted with compelling evidence or unassailable arguments, is to make a joke about the subject, or to ridicule the topic at hand.

The Skripal poisoning case is an excellent example of this strategy. Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets have continued their attempts to drown out the assassination attempt with sarcasm to turn the entire tragedy into one big joke. A similar approach has been employed in the case of the attempted assassination of Alexei Navalny, where pro-Kremlin media has competed on delivering “fun” stories on how to better kill the Russian dissident.
Lots that looks familiar here
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Old 29th August 2022, 05:55 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Russia could withdraw, start fostering diplomatic relations with Ukraine, strive for peace in the disputed regions, then get a legal referendum a decade or so from now. Crazy, I know.
And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.
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Old 29th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.
Ironic given your stance on all the things Ukraine should do.

Don't worry, I'm sure an easing of sanctions could be worked into the peace treaty.
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Old 29th August 2022, 06:17 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Ironic given your stance on all the things Ukraine should do.

Don't worry, I'm sure an easing of sanctions could be worked into the peace treaty.
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.
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Old 29th August 2022, 06:22 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I believe all of this is possible if this is discussed among civilized gentlemen (and ladies).
Sadly, there are no such in power in Russia right now.

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Old 29th August 2022, 06:23 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.
How is it that when you exchange "Russian" and "Ukrainian" in this sentence you are no longer able to comprehend it?

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Old 29th August 2022, 06:44 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.
I don't see why concerns over the well-being of the Russian population couldn't be part of the peace negotiations.
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Old 29th August 2022, 06:55 AM   #353
eerok
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Here's the basic position of Russian propagandists and Michel H:

Somebody wants your house and comes crashing through your front door. They rough you up, kidnap and kill some of you, and then they move in their family. They hold a vote. Surprise, it's now their house.

This is exactly how stupid the argument for the Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory is.

Crimea and Donbas belong to Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.
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Old 29th August 2022, 06:57 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I believe all of this is possible if this is discussed among civilized gentlemen (and ladies).
That's a very big "if". Do you think it even remotely likely? I sure don't.



Quote:
Nuclear inspectors are going to come very soon to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, which is located in territory occupied by Russia. They don't seem to be terrified of meeting these "horrible and so barbaric Russians".
They don't need to be scared the Russians will attack them because Russia is not currently invading their countries. They do need to be aware that the Russians will try to give them a false impression of what is going on in and around the power station site for their own propaganda purposes.

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Nothing is gained by constantly demonizing Russians.
I was nervously hopeful that Germany's attempt to treat Russia as a good neighbour and create a mutual dependence on the selling and buying of natural gas might work. I was wrong. Russia is bombing and killing people in Ukraine right now, not because anyone demonized them but because that's what Putin wants. What you call demonising is just people's horrified reaction to Putin's bloody war.
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Old 29th August 2022, 07:17 AM   #355
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That's a very big "if". Do you think it even remotely likely? I sure don't.





They don't need to be scared the Russians will attack them because Russia is not currently invading their countries. They do need to be aware that the Russians will try to give them a false impression of what is going on in and around the power station site for their own propaganda purposes.



I was nervously hopeful that Germany's attempt to treat Russia as a good neighbour and create a mutual dependence on the selling and buying of natural gas might work. I was wrong. Russia is bombing and killing people in Ukraine right now, not because anyone demonized them but because that's what Putin wants. What you call demonising is just people's horrified reaction to Putin's bloody war.
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.

You seem to be also strangely forgetful about Western crimes (invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, help for allowing Israel to steal every month more Palestinian territory, bombing of Yugoslavia, Libya and so on and so forth ...).
If you really think that an American bomb falling in Iraq or in Syria is somehow gentler than a Russian missile, I think you're wrong.

There is a difference between believing you are morally superior (and repeating it all day while insulting your opponents), and being really morally better, which involves as a typical characteristic a share of humility.

Last edited by Michel H; 29th August 2022 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 29th August 2022, 08:07 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.
The sanctions imposed because of the invasion of Ukrainian territories would of course stop once Russia leaves those.

You act as if Russia is unfairly punished, which is a bit like a mugger complaining about the consequences of his actions after robbing someone.
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Old 29th August 2022, 11:20 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.
The Russians aren't there to help anyone. They've been using the locals as cannon fodder to see if Ukrainian defenders can keep shooting after a bombardment. This is a land grab by Putin. Sanctions are an entirely legitimate response to a country grabbing parts of its neighbour's land. You seem to think that shouldn't apply to Russia because it might hurt their feelings.

Quote:
You seem to be also strangely forgetful about Western crimes (invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, help for allowing Israel to steal every month more Palestinian territory, bombing of Yugoslavia, Libya and so on and so forth ...).
If you really think that an American bomb falling in Iraq or in Syria is somehow gentler than a Russian missile, I think you're wrong.
You might like to quote whatever I wrote that makes you think I supported the Iraq war or the occupation of Palestinian land because I seem to be having trouble remembering when I did that. Are you quite sure you're not just projecting a load of assumptions about what I believe just because I happen to think your position on the invasion of Ukraine is absurd and fantastical?

Quote:
There is a difference between believing you are morally superior (and repeating it all day while insulting your opponents), and being really morally better, which involves as a typical characteristic a share of humility.
Okay, I'm convinced it's just you projecting now. Your notions of how to end Putin's war are asinine and utterly unrealistic. Russia is not going to back off from this cynical land-grab unless it's forced to. That doesn't make me morally superior to anything or anyone, it just makes Putin a callous, evil ****.
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Old 29th August 2022, 11:29 AM   #358
Aridas
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Here's the basic position of Russian propagandists and Michel H:

Somebody wants your house and comes crashing through your front door. They rough you up, kidnap and kill some of you, and then they move in their family. They hold a vote. Surprise, it's now their house.

This is exactly how stupid the argument for the Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory is.

Crimea and Donbas belong to Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.
Just to expand that... it's still stupid even if the person crashing through the front door is a rich, powerful relative who used to own the house long before. It's still stupid even if you were friends with that person before they crashed through the door and if they used the pretense that the neighbors were annoying as justification for their actions.

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The sanctions imposed because of the invasion of Ukrainian territories would of course stop once Russia leaves those.

You act as if Russia is unfairly punished, which is a bit like a mugger complaining about the consequences of his actions after robbing someone.
I'm doubtful that many of the sanctions that have been imposed will actually be lifted immediately even if Russia withdraws fully.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #359
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.
But those aren't Russia. Both are part of Ukraine. We don't know what the people of either think because there has never been a referendum in either location.
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Last edited by Craig4; 29th August 2022 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:02 PM   #360
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I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.
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