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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 128 77.58%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.42%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 27 16.36%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.64%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 8th August 2022, 09:01 PM   #1
angrysoba
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FBI Raid Trump's house at Mar-a-Lago

Quote:
The FBI searched Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate as part of an investigation into whether he took classified records from the White House to his Florida residence, people familiar with the matter said Monday, a move that represents a dramatic and unprecedented escalation of law enforcement scrutiny of the former president.

Trump, disclosing the search in a lengthy statement, asserted that agents had opened up a safe at his home and described their work as an “unannounced raid” that he likened to “prosecutorial misconduct.”

The search intensifies the months-long probe into how classified documents ended up in more than a dozen boxes located at Mar-a-Lago earlier this year. It occurs amid a separate grand jury investigation into efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election and adds to the potential legal peril for Trump as he lays the groundwork for another run.
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:08 PM   #2
The Great Zaganza
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This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:38 PM   #3
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something? No

Is this perfectly above board?
Yes

Is it way past time that this happened? Yes

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment? No



...but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.
Who else is going to serve a search warrant on a twice-impeached criminal ex-president who tried to lead an armed insurrection on the Capitol to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?

Noteworthy: Around this time last year, and a little before, there were a number of Fat Orange Turd apologists posting here, who insisted that the January 6 attack could not have been an insurrection because the rioters were not armed with firearms. We now know, thanks to the Jan 6 Committee investigation, that in fact, not only that the mob were armed with firearms, but that The Fat Orange Turd KNEW they were armed, and tried to have the metal detectors turned off so that even more armed members could get in. Those Fat Orange Turd apologists have gone very quiet all of a sudden... I wonder why that is?
.
.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:46 PM   #4
marting
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
I agree with Ken White. And he has the background being a former Fed. prosecutor. This is being spun as politically motivated by the usual suspects and that was certainly expected by the DOJ and judge that signed off on the warrant app. This is way more than just classified docs that DJT took back on Jan 20, 2021. Way more. But it is likely to include "other" material from Jan 2021 that is of more interest.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:47 PM   #5
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"It's so unfair to have an unannounced raid! They should have had the decency to give me enough time to attempt to flush the documents and all my coke down the toilet before they got here. WITCH HUNT!!!"
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:56 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
If they don't find anything, will you still be confident of this?
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
Well, as Popehat says...

Quote:
The New York Times is reporting that the search is targeted at Trump's removal of documents from the White House. Again, as I noted above, the warrant form should confirm that.

As
@jbarro
and I were just discussing, it's rather surprising to me that the misappropriated documents (even if classified) would get DoJ to execute a warrant. Not what I'd expect them to find adequate to do something this big. So I suspect there's more.

The other thing about searching for misappropriated documents is the lapse of time from 1/20/21 until now. One thing federal magistrates tend to scrutinize is "what's the evidence that these items are at the location NOW." So they'd have to have some fresh intel.
Popehat is saying that just the documents seems to be not a great reason to do it, and it seems odd that they would just go in expecting to find them there, unless, as mentioned there is "fresh intel".

He says that it really depends on what is in the warrant. If Trump ends up showing the warrant and saying what they were looking for then maybe we will know.

Do we know what is in the warrant?

Do we have strong evidence for knowing what was in the warrant?

Meanwhile, of course, the right-wing loonies are freaking out and melting down. Kind of amusing to see, BUT also some of the stuff they are saying looks to me like THEY should be getting a visit from the FBI....
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:18 PM   #8
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If they don't find anything, will you still be confident of this?
nope.
I think the SS is a fundamentally corrupt agency with an extreme right-wing bias.
But it seems that self-preservation might be more important to them than loyalty to Trump.
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, as Popehat says...



Popehat is saying that just the documents seems to be not a great reason to do it, and it seems odd that they would just go in expecting to find them there, unless, as mentioned there is "fresh intel".

He says that it really depends on what is in the warrant. If Trump ends up showing the warrant and saying what they were looking for then maybe we will know.

Do we know what is in the warrant?

Do we have strong evidence for knowing what was in the warrant?

Meanwhile, of course, the right-wing loonies are freaking out and melting down. Kind of amusing to see, BUT also some of the stuff they are saying looks to me like THEY should be getting a visit from the FBI....

100+ FBI agents and several armored vehicles seems to be a bit OTT if its just a few documents.
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:26 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
100+ FBI agents and several armored vehicles seems to be a bit OTT if its just a few documents.
Indeed. But then this would appear to be incorrect, no?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?

And if it is not for the documents, then what is it for?

This is why I am in "wait and see" mode rather than confidently asserting that I know why this was done and it was justified.

I think that is over-confidence.

But of course, anyone over-confidently asserting it is an abuse of federal power also clearly either has no idea if they are correct, or they are full-on Trump apologists who would literally support Trump shooting a guy on Main Street. True Homelander fans.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Indeed. But then this would appear to be incorrect, no?



If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?

And if it is not for the documents, then what is it for?

This is why I am in "wait and see" mode rather than confidently asserting that I know why this was done and it was justified.

I think that is over-confidence.

But of course, anyone over-confidently asserting it is an abuse of federal power also clearly either has no idea if they are correct, or they are full-on Trump apologists who would literally support Trump shooting a guy on Main Street. True Homelander fans.
Its fun to speculate

Other than the obvious (more illegally retained documents), there could be any other number of things that led to this.

Maybe someone working in Mar-A-Lardo has seen something and reported it to the DOJ/FBI?

Has the J6 Select Committee had testimony or seen documents that relate to J6 or some other criminality, and reported this to the DoJ? Remember, the J6 is sharing much, if not most, of what they have with DoJ.

The Fat Orange Turd is up to his neck in criminality, and it seems like an enormous operation just to retrieve some stolen documents, so while I am adopting a wait and see position, I do suspect there is something else going on here, maybe as well as the obvious.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:21 PM   #12
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Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:22 PM   #13
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It was a beautiful raid. A tremendous raid. The best raid anyone has ever done.
I was just talking to a guy and he said "Sir, that was the most bigly raid ever."
Truly spectacular.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its fun to speculate

Other than the obvious (more illegally retained documents), there could be any other number of things that led to this.

Maybe someone working in Mar-A-Lardo has seen something and reported it to the DOJ/FBI?

Has the J6 Select Committee had testimony or seen documents that relate to J6 or some other criminality, and reported this to the DoJ? Remember, the J6 is sharing much, if not most, of what they have with DoJ.

The Fat Orange Turd is up to his neck in criminality, and it seems like an enormous operation just to retrieve some stolen documents, so while I am adopting a wait and see position, I do suspect there is something else going on here, maybe as well as the obvious.
I would love it if it had all come from the Alex Jones phone records!

I know, I know...

Meanwhile, some right-wingers are pointing out that the Clintons took furniture from the White House and haven't seen the FBI raid them to get that back yet!

I mean, that's a good point, right?
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
Oooh! Delicious irony if true.
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
How about the actual pee tape?
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:34 PM   #17
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Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.

Originally Posted by DirtBag
These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-A-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents. Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before. After working and cooperating with the relevant Government agencies, this unannounced raid on my home was not necessary or appropriate. It is prosecutorial misconduct, the weaponization of the Justice System, and an attack by Radical Left Democrats who desperately don’t want me to run for President in 2024, especially based on recent polls, and who will likewise do anything to stop Republicans and Conservatives in the upcoming Midterm Elections. Such an assault could only take place in broken, Third-World Countries. Sadly, America has now become one of those Countries, corrupt at a level not seen before. They even broke into my safe! What is the difference between this and Watergate, where operatives broke into the Democrat National Committee? Here, in reverse, Democrats broke into the home of the 45th President of the United States.

The political persecution of President Donald J. Trump has been going on for years, with the now fully debunked Russia, Russia, Russia Scam, Impeachment Hoax #1, Impeachment Hoax #2, and so much more, it just never ends. It is political targeting at the highest level!

Hillary Clinton was allowed to delete and acid wash 33,000 E-mails AFTER they were subpoenaed by Congress. Absolutely nothing has happened to hold her accountable. She even took antique furniture, and other items from the White House.

I stood up to America’s bureaucratic corruption, I restored power to the people, and truly delivered for our Country, like we have never seen before. The establishment hated it. Now, as they watch my endorsed candidates win big victories, and see my dominance in all polls, they are trying to stop me, and the Republican Party, once more. The lawlessness, political persecution, and Witch Hunt must be exposed and stopped.

I will continue to fight for the Great American People!
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:48 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.
Poor Donnie.

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Old 9th August 2022, 12:54 AM   #19
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And of course all the republicans are whining on twitter. Turd Cruz tweeted that the White House have weaponized the DOJ/FBI to target political enemies...
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
And of course all the republicans are whining on twitter. Turd Cruz tweeted that the White House have weaponized the DOJ/FBI to target political enemies...
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.

James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell et al might like to have a word with Cruz.
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:16 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.

James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell et al might like to have a word with Cruz.
Nah, they just know their crowd. The FBI director was put in place by trump himself, but they're still whining about him being a part of the Democratic persecution.
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:08 AM   #22
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Does anyone else recall all of the bitching and complaining that the POS Trump did concerning the private e-mail server that Hillary Clinton used while she was Secretary of State?

He was endlessly chanting "Lock her Up! Lock her Up!".

Also, since that POS Trump always likes to say that he is on the side of "Law and Order", then this legal search should be no problem for him, assuming that he actually does support "Law and Order".
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:09 AM   #23
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The satisfyingly ironic part is that this is the same type of (alleged) offence that prompted the “Lock her up!” chants and and hours of public congressional investigations into Clinton’s email server.
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:26 AM   #24
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Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:15 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
Your claim - like to support it?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute.
What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
Once again, you do not know what you are talking about.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your claim - like to support it?
The likelihood that every single record in a 4 year span was properly handled, when an incredible amount of records are generated, is unlikely. Mistakes happen

ETA: your question is like asking for evidence that everyone speeds. The issue is the structure of speeding laws make it a certainty.

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Old 9th August 2022, 05:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Once again, you do not know what you are talking about.
Person asked for hot takes. I don't see you coming up with hot takes on short notice.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?
It's not just some documents. Trump is alleged to have taken documents that, by law, belong to the National Archives, including classified documents whose removal and retention is punishable by up to five years in prison.

Quote:
18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

People have been sentenced to substantial prison time for stealing unclassified documents from the National Archives:
  • Robert Bradford Murphy and Elizabeth Irene Murphy were both sentenced to ten years in federal prison.
  • Charles Merrill Mount was sentenced to five years.
  • Shawn Aubitz paid a $73,000 fine and served 21 months in prison.
  • Sandy Berger (who had been a National Security Advisor in the Clinton administration) paid a $50,000 fine and was sentenced to 100 hours of community service.
  • Howard Harner paid a $10,000 and was sentenced to two years in prison.
  • Denning McTague paid a $3000 fine and was sentenced to 15 months in prison.
  • Les Waffen was sentenced to 18 months.
  • Barry Landau was sentenced to 7 years in federal prison. His co-conspirator Jason Savedoff served one year and a day.
  • Antonin DeHays was sentenced to 364 days in prison and ordered to pay a $43,456.96 fine for stealing WWII memorabilia from the National Archives.
"Butter emails!":
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Originally Posted by DirtBag
Hillary Clinton was allowed to delete and acid wash 33,000 E-mails AFTER they were subpoenaed by Congress. Absolutely nothing has happened to hold her accountable. She even took antique furniture, and other items from the White House.

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Does anyone else recall all of the bitching and complaining that the POS Trump did concerning the private e-mail server that Hillary Clinton used while she was Secretary of State?

He was endlessly chanting "Lock her Up! Lock her Up!".
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The satisfyingly ironic part is that this is the same type of (alleged) offence that prompted the “Lock her up!” chants and and hours of public congressional investigations into Clinton’s email server.

Donald Trump's alleged thefts of archives and classified documents are far more serious than anything Hillary Clinton was ever accused of doing.
Unless of course you regard QAnon and MAGA allegations surrounding PizzaGate and such as serious allegations, in which case you have already removed yourself from the vicinity of sober discourse.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:56 AM   #31
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OK, so let's accept for argument's sake for just a moment that the Democrats HAVE "weaponised" the FBI for political gain and to attack Donny. Given their parlous polls situation, wouldn't it be logical to expect they will start using any and all the evidence they pilfered from Mar-a-Lardo IMMEDIATELY to denigrate Trumpy and launch a scathing attack on him and all his associates? It would be a goldmine of grifty goodness, surely, that they could use. Because that's exactly what Trumpy says he fears in his Trothe Sential post.

So it's been nearly 24 hours now... Anyone got any reports of a Democrat landslide release of juicy Trumpy tid-bits? Photos of Trumpy eating official records in a taco? Even just one salacious tale of peeing on beds?

...anything?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.
No they aren't. He knows damn well what he's saying. He just doesn't care. Stop attributing to incompetence what is clearly malice.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Person asked for hot takes. I don't see you coming up with hot takes on short notice.
If you happen to have a moment of lucidity in the near future, then kindly explain this posting of yours because I cannot make any sense of it.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.

My hot take on this is that, since they never did raid Clinton's house, this pretty much proves that the FBI doesn't carry out politically-motivated raids. Because I'd bet good money that there was at least one moment where Trump demanded such a raid, and the FBI refused to do it without some actual evidence to support the need for a raid.

Considering how many times Trump actually did use his power to take revenge on those he imagined had wronged him, it's a safe bet he at least tried to do the same to Hillary.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you happen to have a moment of lucidity in the near future, then kindly explain this posting of yours because I cannot make any sense of it.
Do you know what a hot take is? Because the OP asked for them
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:07 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime.
justice is supposed to be blind.
All lies and nonsense struck out. And justice is blind, just like you are to reality. And before your inevitable attempt to drag me down the rabbit hole with you: You made the claim, prove it.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.
Because Hillary didn't actually do anything wrong. Trump did. This is not complicated. Do not pretend it is to manufacture a moral outage debate that isn't there.

If the Right and their apologists could pull themselves out of "I don't understand why being wrong/evil/lawbreaking is treated differently then being correct/not evil/law abiding. I mean is suuuuuuuuuuuch a double standard." that would be just super-duper.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
All lies and nonsense struck out. And before your inevitable attempt to drag me down the rabbit hole with you: You made the claim, prove it.
And "But I because of my internet persona's fetishistic adherence to pure versions of random philosophies I pull out of a hat, I'm not making a claim and therefore don't have burden of proof." routine... action.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.


"These are dark times for our Nation".

Well, at least the first seven words were reasonably accurate.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Hillary didn't actually do anything wrong. Trump did. This is not complicated. Do not pretend it is to manufacture a moral outage debate that isn't there.

If the Right and their apologists could pull themselves out of "I don't understand why being wrong/evil/lawbreaking is treated differently then being correct/not evil/law abiding. I mean is suuuuuuuuuuuch a double standard." that would be just super-duper.
Precisely. And the standard Republican position is that Democrats are subject to the rule of law, Republicans are not.
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