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Old 12th September 2022, 02:32 PM   #81
phiwum
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I said friends, not family.
A fair point, there's a difference there. I can't say that I have any fascist friends in Massachusetts, though there are at least a couple who've made racist comments or jokes.

Quote:

No nuance is required.

If you support white supremacism then you're a fascist.
If you think the Holocaust was a good thing then you're a fascist.
If you display symbolism of the far right in any way other than academic then you're a fascist.
All of this sounds like white nationalism, racism, and so on. I thought fascism was a narrower term than these. For instance, I'd guess that some Muslim extremists would say the Holocaust was a good thing, but I doubt they're reasonably described as fascists.

Maybe "fascist" is similar to the right's use of the term "Communist". Some described mask mandates as Communist, which is just silly unless Communist means something like "a political stance I really hate". Maybe "fascist" just means "racist, but worse!!"

All of this confusion is really why I don't personally use the term.
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Old 12th September 2022, 02:34 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And there's your differences - two of them

1. You tolerate fascists - Antifa people do not!

2. You think fascists are horrible people but don't take action - Antifa people think fascists are horrible people but do take action.
.
.
Well, I'm not here to criticize Antifa broadly, but only the claim that whatever Antifa is against must be fascist, since they're anti-fascists.

I do think that the action they take is a dangerous form of vigilantism, personally, but we needn't argue over that.
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Old 12th September 2022, 02:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Maybe "fascist" is similar to the right's use of the term "Communist". Some described mask mandates as Communist, which is just silly unless Communist means something like "a political stance I really hate". Maybe "fascist" just means "racist, but worse!!"
I'm honestly curious how you would define fascist. I'll gladly unpack why somebody might describe mask mandates as Communist in return.
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Old 12th September 2022, 03:01 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm honestly curious how you would define fascist. I'll gladly unpack why somebody might describe mask mandates as Communist in return.
I think it's very safe to conclude that the vast majority of people throwing around "communist" in reaction to the mask mandates are simply brainwashed by media into believing any collective societal action means communism. There's no deeper thought process to unpack there.
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Old 12th September 2022, 03:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think it's very safe to conclude that the vast majority of people throwing around "communist" in reaction to the mask mandates are simply brainwashed by media into believing any collective societal action means communism. There's no deeper thought process to unpack there.
Your average person on both sides, or any side, throws these kinds of words around ignorantly. If we are going to actually seriously ask what the beliefs are of each side, you can't take the surface level conscious understanding that the average supporter can articulate. All sides are moronic if we look at it that way.
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Old 12th September 2022, 03:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think it's very safe to conclude that the vast majority of people throwing around "communist" in reaction to the mask mandates are simply brainwashed by media into believing any collective societal action means communism. There's no deeper thought process to unpack there.
Not even that. "Communist" or even just "commie" is a convenient swear word the uneducated clods have been given to describe anything they don't like or people who ask them to do something they have been brainwashed to hate. "Socialist" is another word for the same use. It is no good trying to analyse what these people understand what those words mean. They have absolutely no idea. About the only coding you can read into the use of those words is the clubbing-together of the speakers as like-minded morons. It helps them identify each other.
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:02 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm honestly curious how you would define fascist. I'll gladly unpack why somebody might describe mask mandates as Communist in return.
I have no particular expertise in this area. I'd look up the definition of "fascism" in the dictionary if I wanted to use the term, but it's pretty clear that this isn't how the term is used informally.

(In particular, the dictionary definition prominently discusses government control of the capitalist system, which really has nothing to do with most of the white nationalist propaganda we see, for instance.)
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:08 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think it's very safe to conclude that the vast majority of people throwing around "communist" in reaction to the mask mandates are simply brainwashed by media into believing any collective societal action means communism. There's no deeper thought process to unpack there.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not even that. "Communist" or even just "commie" is a convenient swear word the uneducated clods have been given to describe anything they don't like or people who ask them to do something they have been brainwashed to hate. "Socialist" is another word for the same use. It is no good trying to analyse what these people understand what those words mean. They have absolutely no idea. About the only coding you can read into the use of those words is the clubbing-together of the speakers as like-minded morons. It helps them identify each other.
But isn't the use of the word "fascist" similar?

Take smartcooky's post, for instance:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No nuance is required.

If you support white supremacism then you're a fascist.
If you think the Holocaust was a good thing then you're a fascist.
If you display symbolism of the far right in any way other than academic then you're a fascist.
Does fascism just mean terrible kinds of racism or public displays of far right support?

Are Trump flags symbolism of the far right? If so, is everyone flying such a flag a fascist? I think that's stretching the definition into incoherence, but I don't know if smartcooky intended to include these flags.
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:09 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Where as most murderers are inner city minoritys, so probably Democrats (if they think that deeply) then yes, there is lots of violence from the Left. Including Antifa and BLM.
[citation needed]. But then again, the right abandoned facts years ago.
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I have no particular expertise in this area. I'd look up the definition of "fascism" in the dictionary if I wanted to use the term, but it's pretty clear that this isn't how the term is used informally.

(In particular, the dictionary definition prominently discusses government control of the capitalist system, which really has nothing to do with most of the white nationalist propaganda we see, for instance.)
I'll have a crack. Fascism is a type of managerialism. It differs from Communism in that it is particularist rather than universalist. It is interested in a particular people, and sees different people as having different destinies. Communism offers a single rationalist answer to all peoples. Fascism is rooted in mythologised history, Communism is rooted in mythologised theory.

Anyway, as to the statement I promised about Communism and why people might link it to mask mandates. Communism arises out of the tradition of the French Revolution. Marxism claims to be "scientific". Look at the Fabians. Over and over you have this idea that utopia can be found by having rational men making rational decisions. Ordinarily there are obvious conflicts between liberty and equality, or liberty and a functioning society. Over and over the solution has been to redefine liberty as being the freedom to do what is in your rational best interests, since why would you want anything else. Since the universe is rational and harmonious, then everybody acting in their own rational self interests will not lead to conflicting demands. The issue then is that people do not act in their own rational self interest. You therefore need a class of people who are educated to make the decisions for people until such a time as they make the appropriate choices for themselves. Communism always ends up being the rule of the "experts", the rule of bureaucrats, the rule of managers. Once you take away all the theory and promises that never materialise, that is all it is. Mask mandates were an example of rule of experts and bureaucrats making decisions for people because those people were making decisions that experts and bureaucrats judged not to be in their rational interests. This is a line of thought that goes back through Communism to Rousseau.

The mask mandates could be said to be communist rather than fascist in the sense that the people implementing them were universalists rather than particularists.
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But isn't the use of the word "fascist" similar?

Take smartcooky's post, for instance:



Does fascism just mean terrible kinds of racism or public displays of far right support?

Are Trump flags symbolism of the far right? If so, is everyone flying such a flag a fascist? I think that's stretching the definition into incoherence, but I don't know if smartcooky intended to include these flags.
IIRC George Orwell observed that when A calls B a fascist, about all we can deduce from that is that A does not like B. From Dictionary.com:

Quote:
Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism.
Obviously the nationalism applies to most Trumpists, and racism to some. Not many that want him controlling all industry and commerce.
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Old 12th September 2022, 04:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But isn't the use of the word "fascist" similar?
...< >...
It may be. I'm not trying to find out how many in the American right are fascist-adjacent or just unlikeable people who have a yet to be revealed line they won't cross. How many of these edgy, overcompensating young men embroiled in identity politics and don't know jack **** about the system going to stop themselves from voting for a true fascist candidate in a future election
and how many will double down for the fun of it?

I don't go around calling random rightwingers fascists, because I prefer to use words carefully. But I suggest it's closer to the mark than the idea that collective action to stop a disease epidemic is "communism" as imagined by Red Scarers in 2022.
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Old 12th September 2022, 05:50 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'll have a crack. Fascism is a type of managerialism. It differs from Communism in that it is particularist rather than universalist. It is interested in a particular people, and sees different people as having different destinies. Communism offers a single rationalist answer to all peoples. Fascism is rooted in mythologised history, Communism is rooted in mythologised theory.

Anyway, as to the statement I promised about Communism and why people might link it to mask mandates. Communism arises out of the tradition of the French Revolution. Marxism claims to be "scientific". Look at the Fabians. Over and over you have this idea that utopia can be found by having rational men making rational decisions. Ordinarily there are obvious conflicts between liberty and equality, or liberty and a functioning society. Over and over the solution has been to redefine liberty as being the freedom to do what is in your rational best interests, since why would you want anything else. Since the universe is rational and harmonious, then everybody acting in their own rational self interests will not lead to conflicting demands. The issue then is that people do not act in their own rational self interest. You therefore need a class of people who are educated to make the decisions for people until such a time as they make the appropriate choices for themselves. Communism always ends up being the rule of the "experts", the rule of bureaucrats, the rule of managers. Once you take away all the theory and promises that never materialise, that is all it is. Mask mandates were an example of rule of experts and bureaucrats making decisions for people because those people were making decisions that experts and bureaucrats judged not to be in their rational interests. This is a line of thought that goes back through Communism to Rousseau.

The mask mandates could be said to be communist rather than fascist in the sense that the people implementing them were universalists rather than particularists.
In the same way that worldwide administering of the Polio vaccine could be called 'communist.' Action to assure the physical well-being of the community (commune) is perhaps the acme of a 'communist' philosophy, closest to the theoretical ideal.

Maybe we can rightly label the field of medicine as 'communism.'
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Old 12th September 2022, 05:59 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
IIRC George Orwell observed that when A calls B a fascist, about all we can deduce from that is that A does not like B. From Dictionary.com:



Obviously the nationalism applies to most Trumpists, and racism to some. Not many that want him controlling all industry and commerce.
You sure about that? At a cabinet meeting in, I believe, the first or second year of his fetid squatting in the White House, during a discussion on gun regulation the prolapsed orange anus said something like, "Take away the guns first. Then deal with the process." (Not an exact quote!) I recall hearing nary a peep of protest from his cult; had Obama said anything like it the WH would probably have been burned down.

To his fawning base, the cankered sphincter can do no wrong. He alone can fix it.
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Old 12th September 2022, 06:04 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by phiwum
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think it's very safe to conclude that the vast majority of people throwing around "communist" in reaction to the mask mandates are simply brainwashed by media into believing any collective societal action means communism. There's no deeper thought process to unpack there.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not even that. "Communist" or even just "commie" is a convenient swear word the uneducated clods have been given to describe anything they don't like or people who ask them to do something they have been brainwashed to hate. "Socialist" is another word for the same use. It is no good trying to analyse what these people understand what those words mean. They have absolutely no idea. About the only coding you can read into the use of those words is the clubbing-together of the speakers as like-minded morons. It helps them identify each other.
But isn't the use of the word "fascist" similar?

Take smartcooky's post, for instance:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No nuance is required.

If you support white supremacism then you're a fascist.
If you think the Holocaust was a good thing then you're a fascist.
If you display symbolism of the far right in any way other than academic then you're a fascist.
Does fascism just mean terrible kinds of racism or public displays of far right support?

Are Trump flags symbolism of the far right? If so, is everyone flying such a flag a fascist? I think that's stretching the definition into incoherence, but I don't know if smartcooky intended to include these flags.
No, you missed point. Try to stand back from analysing the twigs and look at the forest.

The use of the words "communist" and "socialist" by such as the MAGAchimps is almost always and entirely unrelated to what those words really mean. Of course, there are genuine definitions, and these are worthy of debate. But that's not what the words themselves are intended to mean in this context by those people.

Most MAGAchimps have trouble even spelling those words, let alone using them correctly in a sentence, let alone again using them correctly in a social context. Instead, they are just substitute clique-specific swear words. They are used when they have no others available that carry the disdain they feel, even if it is just manufactured disdain. It is their go-to method of denigration and team-bonding, even if it is laughably incorrectly used.

The difference with the use of the words "fascist" and similar ("Nazi"), is usually that the actual meanings of those words is (usually) intended as an actual and (hopefully) accurate description of someone. And also as a denigration as a result. Again, the exact definitions are debatable, and we see it here on this forum. What exactly is a "fascist"? Although yes, there are also a few people who also use them simply as team pejoratives.
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Old 12th September 2022, 06:48 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The difference with the use of the words "fascist" and similar ("Nazi"), is usually that the actual meanings of those words is (usually) intended as an actual and (hopefully) accurate description of someone. And also as a denigration as a result. Again, the exact definitions are debatable, and we see it here on this forum. What exactly is a "fascist"? Although yes, there are also a few people who also use them simply as team pejoratives.
I guess it doesn't seem to me that smartcooky's listed principles for determining that someone is a fascist doesn't really seem to be accurate. I don't think that those who are throwing the term "fascist" around are being careful at all. The term has, far as I can tell, more or less lost its original meaning except in specialized discourse.

I'll agree that misuse of "Communism" tends to be more egregious.

I'd prefer that people use terms that more obviously apply. Most of the time someone's called a fascist, a term like "white nationalist" is more apt and, I'd think, just as pejorative in normal company.

Anyway, we've more than strayed from the topic here. My original point is that arguments that there must be honest-to-gosh fascists or else there'd be no anti-fascists is just silly. (As is the related and even sillier argument, which I haven't seen lately, that if you're against Antifa, then you must be for fascism.)

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Old 12th September 2022, 10:38 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's how I see it. Antifa do not take a refined and genteel philosophical position. They're the sledgehammer. Not much interest in historical minutiae. Just a simple "hey, the ******** are back in town. Lets give the mother ******* a hearty welcome"
Yup. Trust them, they know what they're doing!
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Old 12th September 2022, 10:57 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Were he a serious fascist, one who poses a physical threat to others, then yeah, I guess he would be estranged from me. That's a good point.

If he's a barroom fascist, all talk with no significant effect on others, I might still speak to him. Maybe I'm weak in that respect.
And here's the thing you're missing.

Those bar-room fascists, they become actual, real fascists, who do pose a physical threat to others, only then do people like you who defend their right to spew their vile rhetoric, wake the **** up and realize what has happened... but by then, its too late.

This is the lesson that our parents and our grandparents learned from the fall of the Wiemar Republic, and the rise of Nazi Germany - a lesson we seem to have collectively forgotten. The die was probably cast by 1935 - it was too late to stop Hitler and the Nazis and war was inevitable from that point on.

Anyone with a functioning brain knew that at the time, just as anyone with a functioning brain realizes now, that if the MAGA wing of the GOP is not stopped, it will drive the United States into an authoritarian dictatorship - they came very, very close to succeeding on January 6, 2021, they know what mistakes they made, and next time they could well succeed - and if they do, all those precious rights you find so important, well you can kiss all of them goodbye!
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Old 12th September 2022, 11:37 PM   #99
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Prolbme with Antifa is a very loose coalition, some of whom frankly, are unsavory. Yes,I a looking at the Anarchist wing.
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Old 13th September 2022, 12:36 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I have no particular expertise in this area. I'd look up the definition of "fascism" in the dictionary if I wanted to use the term, but it's pretty clear that this isn't how the term is used informally.
I'd rather not discuss it here as its off topic, but if the mods decide to move the "fascism" posts to a new thread, I would be prepared to discuss further because it is a thoroughly interesting topic.

If you want to truly understand fascism and what it is, and if you want to understand why many thinking people see the USA rushing headlong into authoritarianism, then you probably need to read a book called "The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind" by Gustave Le Bon. Written in 1895, it is considered to be one of the seminal works of crowd psychology. It is this philosophy of Le Bon that Benito Mussolini based his political ideas on. That same philosophy was followed by both Goebbels and Hitler, whose "Mein Kampf" drew largely on many of the concepts outlined in Le Bon's book.

There are a number of quotes from this book which anyone with a brain and whose mind is not bolted shut, will immediately recognize as relevant today, both in the USA and in a number of European democracies.

"...while all our ancient beliefs are tottering and disappearing, while the old pillars of society are giving way one by one, the power of The Crowd is the only force that nothing menaces and of which the prestige is continually on the increase. The age we are about to enter will, in truth, be the era of crowds"


The basis of fascism is to use populist politics to gain political power, not by preaching to the educated and the elites, but by appealing to the hearts and minds of everyday people who will support you en-masse. LeBon believed that crowds had a sort of "Mental Unity" that when individuals identify with crowds they lose their ability to think for themselves, and instead, they simply follow whatever the crowd thinks and wherever it goes. The result is a crowd of like-minded individuals whom the politician can now direct to do their bidding. Le Bon believed that telling the crowd the truth was a useless waste of time. The only way to control and influence a crowd was to tell them what they want to hear, and in so doing appeal to their emotions.

Is any of this sounding familiar? It should do... we saw it in the 1930's with Hitler's speeches at Der Reichsparteitagsgelände in Nuremburg, and at Der Sportpalastrede in Berlin, and we see it in The Fat Orange Turd's MAGA rallies and in his speech at the Ellipse on 1/6/2021.

As Le Bon states...

"the masses have never thirsted after truth they turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error if errors seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master, whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim."


The Fat Orange Turd's propaganda machine incessantly told them for months and months leading up to the election, that if he lost, then the Democrats must have rigged the election. He continually repeated this Big Lie until he drummed it into their feeble minds, so naturally, when he inevitably lost, the crowd of MAGA morons, whipped into a frenzy because The Fat Orange Turd kept telling them exactly what they wanted to hear, were only too willing to believe that which he had conditioned them to believe, and were easily convinced to attack Capitol.

IMO, the rise of Nazi Germany, and the subsequent World War and Holocaust should be a required reading in History for students from 8th grade onward, as it is in Germany...

"Teaching the subject of the Holocaust and the Nazi era is mandatory in German schools and in addition to the classroom curriculum, almost all students have either visited a concentration camp or a Holocaust memorial or museum."

It seems Germany of the only country where those lessons that cost 80+ million lives have not been forgotten.
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Old 13th September 2022, 02:37 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
In the same way that worldwide administering of the Polio vaccine could be called 'communist.' Action to assure the physical well-being of the community (commune) is perhaps the acme of a 'communist' philosophy, closest to the theoretical ideal.
No. You seem to be repeating something like the MSNBC version of what the right mean when they say "communist" rather than what I said. The whole point is the lack of consent angle, the compulsion and coercion. If nations were pressured to roll out the polio vaccine, or people were compelled and coerced to take the vaccine, then we would be back in the same ballpark. Communism is universalist, globalist managerialism. Fascism is particularist, nationalist managerialism.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Maybe we can rightly label the field of medicine as 'communism.'
It can be when it becomes managerial and serves managerial interests and values rather than the interests and values of the people it is supposed to serve. In as much as modern medicine tends to be dominated by globalised corporate bureaucracies increasingly dealing with trans-national regulators and politicians, the tendency seems to be in that direction.
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Old 13th September 2022, 05:45 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't call all supporters of Trump fascists by any stretch. Many are self-deluded, insensitive clods. I was just speaking with an old college friend the other day. He supports Trump, but he's not a fascist by any stretch.
Ergo you don't consider Trump a fascist. He is just some other kind of hard right want to be dictator.
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Old 13th September 2022, 05:51 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
So, as for the last big Nazi show, we all stand back and stand by until the Nazis completely rip the masks off before dealing with them. Got it.
Pretty much. That's what the new version of "Free Speech" means according to the same people who have turned "Freedom" into "You can't tell me what to do" and "Thinking for yourself" into "I'm gonna think the exact opposite of whatever I'm being told."

Basically every version of dealing with evil or wrongness has to wait until after it's too late, according to them.

But don't dare suggest they are on their side or the screeching will start.
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Old 13th September 2022, 05:53 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Were he a serious fascist, one who poses a physical threat to others, then yeah, I guess he would be estranged from me. That's a good point.

If he's a barroom fascist, all talk with no significant effect on others, I might still speak to him. Maybe I'm weak in that respect.
So Hitler in the early 20's before the beer hall putsch, and probably after it as well because so few nazis were actually involved in that attempt to over throw the government, it would be like thinking that when republicans tried to over throw the government on jan 6 it meant anything serious.

When did the Nazi party and its supporters become real fascists?
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:22 AM   #105
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There seem to be two questions here,

Is Trump a Fascist?

Does supporting a fascist make one a fascist?

The thing is people view fascist as such a negative connotation that it is divorced from its true meaning to many people. Kind of like how you can't discuss racial bias because observing the effect of racial bias equates to calling someone a racist and how can you slander someone like that, so we are forced to ignore proven institutional racism because talking about it makes people uncomfortable.
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:29 AM   #106
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Why would one support a Fascist?
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Why would one support a Fascist?
Ask supporters of Modi, he seems to have some pretty hard fascist leanings.
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:34 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ask supporters of Modi, he seems to have some pretty hard fascist leanings.
I am well aware of that. My question was in response to a poster stating that a friend who is an ardent supporter of Trump was not a Fascist.
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:38 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I am well aware of that. My question was in response to a poster stating that a friend who is an ardent supporter of Trump was not a Fascist.
Ah sorry, without a quote I mistook what post it was a reply to.
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:47 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Why would one support a Fascist?
10 years ago I would have said "Because they didn't know he was a Fascist."

Now it's "Look how much me sucking this Fascist off gets the liberals all tweaked!" and "Don't love fascists? How dare you tell me what to do. I'm going to love this fascists even MORE now just to prove to you that I'm a freethinker."
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Old 13th September 2022, 06:58 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I guess it doesn't seem to me that smartcooky's listed principles for determining that someone is a fascist doesn't really seem to be accurate. I don't think that those who are throwing the term "fascist" around are being careful at all. The term has, far as I can tell, more or less lost its original meaning except in specialized discourse.

I'll agree that misuse of "Communism" tends to be more egregious.

I'd prefer that people use terms that more obviously apply. Most of the time someone's called a fascist, a term like "white nationalist" is more apt and, I'd think, just as pejorative in normal company.

Anyway, we've more than strayed from the topic here. My original point is that arguments that there must be honest-to-gosh fascists or else there'd be no anti-fascists is just silly. (As is the related and even sillier argument, which I haven't seen lately, that if you're against Antifa, then you must be for fascism.)
I would have hoped that by now, as the masks have fallen off over the years of Trump and after, that the discussion wouldn't be so much focused on the dangers of calling people fascist, but on the ****-load of (in many cases self-admitted) fascists that are running for office.
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Old 13th September 2022, 07:28 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Prolbme with Antifa is a very loose coalition, some of whom frankly, are unsavory. Yes,I a looking at the Anarchist wing.
Well...yeah. All of antifa is pretty loose and unsavory. They are the gutter level response team, not the treatise authors.

To phwium's point about antifa not being the arbiter of who is or isn't a fascist, agreed. They have plus or minus only been dealing with flagrantly out in the open white nationalist groups. If they started attacking random Republican city councilmen, they would lose support in a heart beat. So far, they +/- deal with the extreme public showings, and go pretty far out of their way to verify that the targeted groups (Proud Boys, Dickless Spencer, etc) are pretty blatantly neo-Nazi. They are not defining anything. They are reacting to the extremes.
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Old 13th September 2022, 08:56 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Like all those who voted and joined the nazi party while not being explicitly fascist themselves. We forget about all the good people who were members of the nazi party, and smear them with the label of fascist too readily, just like they do with republicans.
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, but Oskar Schindler springs to mind.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:22 AM   #114
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The Left reacts to police killing unarmed black people by burning down Wendy's and CVS. Food for thought.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Left reacts to police killing unarmed black people by burning down Wendy's and CVS. Food for thought.
That's not "the left". That's poor people pushed over the edge.

"The left" would be like Hillary Clinton supporters attacking the Capitol building during an election certification when she lost in 2016. I know, it's ridiculous to think of a presidential candidate and the rabble doing such a thing in this country, isn't it?
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:30 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's not "the left". That's poor people pushed over the edge.

"The left" would be like Hillary Clinton supporters attacking the Capitol building during an election certification when she lost in 2016. I know, it's ridiculous to think of a presidential candidate and the rabble doing such a thing in this country, isn't it?
"Poor people pushed over the edge"? You talk like there are no alternatives to rioting and arson.

We changed a nation with non-violent protest during the 1960s. Why cant non-violent protest and civil disobedience do it again?

Justifying the BLM rioting only gives ammo to folks who feel 1/6 was also justified.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:32 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well...yeah. All of antifa is pretty loose and unsavory. They are the gutter level response team, not the treatise authors.

To phwium's point about antifa not being the arbiter of who is or isn't a fascist, agreed. They have plus or minus only been dealing with flagrantly out in the open white nationalist groups. If they started attacking random Republican city councilmen, they would lose support in a heart beat. So far, they +/- deal with the extreme public showings, and go pretty far out of their way to verify that the targeted groups (Proud Boys, Dickless Spencer, etc) are pretty blatantly neo-Nazi. They are not defining anything. They are reacting to the extremes.
Yes, I think you and I have settled our brief disagreement. That was the only point I was originally trying to make. (I got sidetracked into the definition of fascist, but I've decided to drop out of that conversation.)

I am disappointed, of course, that you can't spell "phiwum". My feelings are hurt.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:40 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
"Poor pdeople pushed over the edge"? You talk like there are no alternatives to rioting and arson.

We changed a nation with non-violent protest during the 1960s. Why cant non-violent protest and civil disobedience do it again?

Justifying the BLM rioting only gives ammo to folks who feel 1/6 was also justified.
Look at Louisville where the Protests were peaceful until the police Started Firing Rubber Bullets at peoples faces,
Including the Fox 41 Reporter covering the protest Live.
The Police didn't want Peace they wanted Violence and to cover up a Murder by other police officers. As did Kentucky's attorney General.

http://youtu.be/gprIBmd_9go

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Old 13th September 2022, 09:40 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
"Poor people pushed over the edge"? You talk like there are no alternatives to rioting and arson.

We changed a nation with non-violent protest during the 1960s. Why cant non-violent protest and civil disobedience do it again?
Of course we could. It just wasn't what you were talking about. You said it was The Left. I disagree. It was the largely apolitical poor.

Quote:
Justifying the BLM rioting only gives ammo to folks who feel 1/6 was also justified.
There was no BLM rioting. Please don't believe everything the Fox say. Poor people rioted. Some were black. That doesn't make it a BLM sponsored event.
.
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Old 13th September 2022, 09:41 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Left reacts to police killing unarmed black people by burning down Wendy's and CVS. Food for thought.
In Louisville they reacted too police Firing ruber bullets directly into their faces caught on live TV.
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