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Tags DeSantis , electioneering , florida , immigration

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Old 16th September 2022, 11:36 PM   #81
Silly Green Monkey
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
getting them to the communities that support them and want them.
Who isn't one of the communities that will support people seeking refuge, who want to help others? Anyone who doesn't, isn't American.
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Old 16th September 2022, 11:52 PM   #82
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cruelty is the objective.
Republican voters don't expect their Party to do anything for them, they just want the party to hurt everyone else.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
cruelty is the objective.
Republican voters don't expect their Party to do anything for them, they just want the party to hurt everyone else.
Quote:
“I thought he [Trump] was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-voter-florida
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:04 AM   #84
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... and see how the people of Martha's Vineyard responded...

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/16/u...nts/index.html

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I AGREE


As the French would say... Magnifique!!

There are still truly decent people in the US, most of them are not the Republicans who live in Florida.
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Old 17th September 2022, 04:53 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the justification is self evident. I think those protesting it are betraying their principles and beclowning themselves. I think if they had the courage of their convictions, they'd be doing everything in their power to get these people out of Florida to somewhere they'll be welcomed and cared for and given real opportunities. I think they'd be condemning the president for leaving them to languish in border states, or shipping them to Florida(!), instead of getting them to the communities that support them and want them.
So you're ok with kidnapping? That's basically what's happening here.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm still trying to figure out the claim made that DHS was providing them with fake addresses. That is what "angry Jane Curtin" claimed in the linked vid.

Why would a federal agency be doing that?
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Could be DHS employees sympathetic to Abbott's and DeSantis' scheme of Reverse Freedom Busses.

Well, they need to get to the bottom of that. Because while I am not surprised by the actions of DeSantis, I am fairly shocked that DHS would be there providing fraudulent documentation to these asylum seekers.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:06 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you're ok with kidnapping? That's basically what's happening here.
Hey...as long as it produces "liberal tears."
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:10 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...The progressive one percenters on the island aren't really doing their faction any favors in all this.
That's what Republicans were hoping for, so they can crow about the NIMBY libruls being all hypocritical and everything. But of course, it didn't happen; in fact MV citizen rallied around them in a way Republicans can't understand and probably can't even recognize. So Republicans will continue to claim it happened anyway, revealing their ongoing war against reality.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:10 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Hey...as long as it produces "liberal tears."
Except it hasn't. But Abbott and Desantis just can't accept these sorts of stunts are failures.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:35 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
... and see how the people of Martha's Vineyard responded...

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/16/u...nts/index.html

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As the French would say... Magnifique!!

There are still truly decent people in the US, most of them are not the Republicans who live in Florida.
Man, those east coast elitist libs are sure making themselves look like hypocritical dicks, the way they took in those Florida/Texas kidnapped victims, gave them what they needed, and helped them get to where they actually wanted to go.

Such bad optics for thos libs, huh?
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:40 AM   #91
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Boy, that moral compass thing is for the birds. So much easier to subjugate women, treat immigrants like chattel, wantonly destroy the environment, coddle and encourage nazis and fascists, lionize proven grifters, and dry hump every conspiracy theory that catches your fancy.

I mean it's one thing to have a broken compass, maybe that could be fixed. But to willfully throw the thing down the deepest hole you can find and pile manure over top just in case anyone looks down... that's next level stuff.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:46 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine View Post
Boy, that moral compass thing is for the birds. So much easier to subjugate women, treat immigrants like chattel, wantonly destroy the environment, coddle and encourage nazis and fascists, lionize proven grifters, and dry hump every conspiracy theory that catches your fancy.
Don't forget Christian Nationalism, although maybe that's what you meant by "fascists".

You'd really have to be in a sanitized conservative hole in the ground to think DeSantis pulled something off here.
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:00 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Don't forget Christian Nationalism, although maybe that's what you meant by "fascists".

You'd really have to be in a sanitized conservative hole in the ground to think DeSantis pulled something off here.
Disagree with your last paragraph.

He pulled off the last remnants of the mask

/deliberate misunderstanding
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:05 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
...You'd really have to be in a sanitized napkin covering a conservative hole in the ground to think DeSantis pulled something off here.
FTFY.
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:13 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You'd really have to be in a sanitized conservative hole in the ground to think DeSantis pulled something off here.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. He is just laying the foundation to step into Trump's shoes for 2024. "Tough on immigration" will be the rhetoric. All of this "negative" national publicity won't hurt him a bit...it was anticipated.
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:53 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's Martha's Vinyard. How much skin off the residents' noses would it be, to put up pavilions and Porta potties on their back lawns, bring in a bunch of camp beds, hire some caterers to do low budget large quantity meals, and then take it from there? Shouldn't take more than a couple weeks for Biden to figure out how to get them to the sanctuary cities that actually want them and are prepared to house them and employ them.
Given that the Vineyard isn't well-suited for housing migrants and they would have to be moved elsewhere, where housing and jobs are more plentiful, the choice of Martha's Vineyard comes down to spite. It certainly was not intended to help the migrants at all.

I'm not sure the year-rounders on the Vineyard are all that wealthy, for that matter.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:00 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Tourist season is winding down if so there should be lots of vacant tourist accommodation available to house the migrants, at least temporarily and since this is a liberal area that just dripping with money one would expect that living wages are the norm. Spot on with the judges IMO.
The Post just had an article about the Island Shuffle. During tourist season, workers grab whatever accommodations they can -- spare room, camper trailer, whatever -- and when the tourists leave, they move to better winter lodgings.

In any case, it is clear that if you thought others should do more for migrants, and you genuinely wanted effective aid for them, you wouldn't move them to a ******* island.

I don't know what the wage for workers on the Vineyard is like. The less affluent Cape has a lot of people just scraping by and housing must surely be cheaper on the Cape than on the Vineyard. It's my anecdotal impression that the year-rounders on the Cape consist of a lot of lower middle class workers, aside from the retirees (most of whom are also middle class).

Anyway, offering to house them on the Cape made a hell of a lot more sense than on the Vineyard, where prices are ridiculous. And the talk of living wages for migrants doesn't make much difference until they have a right to work. (On the Cape, there's a decent population of Latinos, some of whom live there permanently, so there are a couple of grocery stores catering to Portugese and Brazilian tastes. I doubt that's the case on the islands.)
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:16 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yes, exactly. Gin up the outrage machine knowing the migrants would be provided with expert free legal help. In the news again and seen to be taking action against a perceived social problem. Why would these migrants care where they ended up. Martha's Vinyard vs Chicago, tough choice? I think not.

MV is pretty close to both Boston and NYC and these lawyers should have no problem getting the migrant's cases transferred to either one of those large urban centers.
Living on an island is not ideal, especially with winter coming. The winter is fairly mild in this area, but the island does not really have facilities catering to immigrants (aside, I suppose, from seasonal workers).

Boston is not so close. A ferry ride to the mainland (which is not free), followed by a trip of about an hour and a half by car, longer by bus. Figure three to four hours, reasonably.

New York City is not really close. From Falmouth (a natural ferry stop), it's more than six hours by bus. The NYC-Martha's Vineyard ferry is done for the season. The New Bedford ferry ends on Oct. 6, might save some time, at a cost of $45.

There is no good argument that Martha's Vineyard is somehow convenient for the migrants. Well, aside from the fact that immigration judges in that area are friendlier to asylum claims (which I've heard second hand).
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:22 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like good optics so far. The progressive one percenters on the island aren't really doing their faction any favors in all this.

It's almost like any American who actually wants more illegal immigrants only really wants them somewhere else.
How has the Vineyard not responded well? They found temporary shelter, fed the immigrants and provided transportation to a more suitable locale.

I haven't seen any NIMBY responses from Vineyard residents. Rather, an island in Massachusetts is not a good location for the migrants' sake. The resources are not well established and there are no immigration courts there.

Speaking of which, if I understand correctly, some of the migrants have court dates in Texas. They will be missing those.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:42 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I can kinda/sorta understand sending migrants to SF, LA, Boston, Chicago, and other Sanctuary Cities that have the infrastructure to deal with such people, but sending them to a little isolated town like Martha's Vineyard is tantamount to kidnapping and abuse.
Martha's Vineyard is an island, not a town. Its most populous towns are Vineyard Haven, Edgartown, and Oak Bluffs.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Housing is readily available on the Vineyard? They've already moved (some of?) the migrants to Otis Joint Base on the Cape as I understand it.

I also doubt that Vineyard wages for unskilled labor are terribly high. I guess they're higher than down South, but the cost of living is a lot higher too.
That's right.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's Martha's Vinyard. How much skin off the residents' noses would it be, to put up pavilions and Porta potties on their back lawns, bring in a bunch of camp beds, hire some caterers to do low budget large quantity meals, and then take it from there?
If you substitute "commons areas" for what I highlighted, that's pretty much what the residents did, immediately after authorities learned that 50 legal immigrants had been flown to the island.

The fact that residents of Martha's Vineyard reacted with compassion may have come as a great surprise to DeSantis and theprestige, but a lot of Americans are actually decent people.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
DeSantis tried to screw over these people. Apart from the fraud of telling them they were going to Chicago for processing and jobs then sending them somewhere else...

-They were given paperwork with deliberately misleading instructions, which puts their chances of being given asylum at risk.

-They were told to update their addresses with USCIS after being relocated, and that NOT being the correct agency this would put their chances of being given asylum at risk from not updating this information correctly.

-They were given false starting addresses from random homeless shelters far, far from Martha's Vineyard. They have to check in with ICE at the offices in these far off places and have court appearances in the counties of the offices as early as Monday, putting their chances of being given asylum at risk.

Their 'jackpot' was being trafficked in a way set up make their asylum claims be rejected and thus getting them deported, gaining DeSantis more of the headlines he wants. He sent a ******* videographer with them. He wanted them to be rejected from Martha's Vineyard and for his illegal sabotage of their asylum cases to get them deported.

The reason it isn't working is because people are more caring and more competent than he thought they were.
Yep.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, it takes clowns to object to falsifying documents to engage in politically beneficial human trafficking in ways likely to get them deported, sending them somewhere without telling the officials that could support them that they were coming. Certainly only clowns could protest all that.
The falsification of documents should have legal consequences for those who falsified the documents. I doubt whether it will, but it should.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Given that the Vineyard isn't well-suited for housing migrants and they would have to be moved elsewhere, where housing and jobs are more plentiful, the choice of Martha's Vineyard comes down to spite. It certainly was not intended to help the migrants at all.

I'm not sure the year-rounders on the Vineyard are all that wealthy, for that matter.
Some are. Most aren't.

According to the MV Commission's island's economic profile:
  • Seasonal homeowners and their guests generate more economic activity (38%) than do residents. Vacationers and day visitors generate about 26%.
  • The visitor-related component of the economy produces far more low-wage jobs than high-wage jobs.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Boston is not so close. A ferry ride to the mainland (which is not free), followed by a trip of about an hour and a half by car, longer by bus. Figure three to four hours, reasonably.

New York City is not really close. From Falmouth (a natural ferry stop), it's more than six hours by bus. The NYC-Martha's Vineyard ferry is done for the season. The New Bedford ferry ends on Oct. 6, might save some time, at a cost of $45.

There is no good argument that Martha's Vineyard is somehow convenient for the migrants.
Yep.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
How has the Vineyard not responded well? They found temporary shelter, fed the immigrants and provided transportation to a more suitable locale.

I haven't seen any NIMBY responses from Vineyard residents. Rather, an island in Massachusetts is not a good location for the migrants' sake. The resources are not well established and there are no immigration courts there.

Speaking of which, if I understand correctly, some of the migrants have court dates in Texas. They will be missing those.
Yep.
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Old 17th September 2022, 07:49 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Who isn't one of the communities that will support people seeking refuge, who want to help others? Anyone who doesn't, isn't American.

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.”
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Old 17th September 2022, 08:14 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The Post just had an article about the Island Shuffle. During tourist season, workers grab whatever accommodations they can -- spare room, camper trailer, whatever -- and when the tourists leave, they move to better winter lodgings.

In any case, it is clear that if you thought others should do more for migrants, and you genuinely wanted effective aid for them, you wouldn't move them to a ******* island.

I don't know what the wage for workers on the Vineyard is like. The less affluent Cape has a lot of people just scraping by and housing must surely be cheaper on the Cape than on the Vineyard. It's my anecdotal impression that the year-rounders on the Cape consist of a lot of lower middle class workers, aside from the retirees (most of whom are also middle class).

Anyway, offering to house them on the Cape made a hell of a lot more sense than on the Vineyard, where prices are ridiculous. And the talk of living wages for migrants doesn't make much difference until they have a right to work. (On the Cape, there's a decent population of Latinos, some of whom live there permanently, so there are a couple of grocery stores catering to Portugese and Brazilian tastes. I doubt that's the case on the islands.)
MV certainly beats languishing on the streets of San Antonio. We're told the migrants were given phones with US numbers so obviously those were lacking. Phones are cheap and necessary and if the migrants weren't able to afford those then their situation must have indeed been dire. MV residents also raised $175k for the migrants (at press time) which, when distributed equitably among the migrants would allow them to relocate to pretty much anywhere in the country they chose. This is what I meant by "hitting the jackpot".

The missing court appearances issue doesn't make any sense. The migrants knew they had court appearances yet chose to get on a presumably one way flight to a sanctuary location knowing full well that those court appearances would be missed. Maybe there's something wonky in the reporting here.
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Old 17th September 2022, 09:21 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You missed the edit, Stacy. They are asylum seekers. That changes my opinion of what is acceptable. But yeah, the woman was just screeching like Jane Curtin on the old SNL.
Wow. You’ve had forty years to get a few jokes and missed the point of every one.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:11 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Meanwhile instead of using living, breathing human beings as a pawn to get back at the Conservatives, the actually decent people of Martha's Vineyard are rushing to help the refugees.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/us/ma...nts/index.html
And meanwhile, republicans are boasting how the people of Martha's Vineyard are all pissed off and refusing to help.

It's 100% wrong, but Fox and claim it and they will believe it.

ETA: Sure enough, that attitude shows up in this thread.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:15 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I can kinda/sorta understand sending migrants to SF, LA, Boston, Chicago, and other Sanctuary Cities that have the infrastructure to deal with such people, but sending them to a little isolated town like Martha's Vineyard is tantamount to kidnapping and abuse. This **** needs to stop.
They were told they were going to a place where they could easily get work visas, and if they worked hard enough, they could earn freedom. I mean, like there was a camp or something like that where they could go.

Sadly, this is not all that far from reality.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:17 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
The migrants might just have hit the jackpot on this. I mean, think about it. You've spent months trekking through a bunch of countries unsuitable for resettling in only to reach the promised land and end up in some redneck haven like Texas or Florida. Where would you rather be, one of those states or a super wealthy liberal area where housing is readily available and wages are bound to be high?
And those people in Warsaw, man, they were so lucky to get out of the Ghetto and into a place where they could make an honest living working for the Germans.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:45 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I wouldn't be so sure of that. He is just laying the foundation to step into Trump's shoes for 2024.
The “performing political sounds with utter disregard for breaking the law to do it” shoes? Is this the future of the Republican Party?
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:47 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The “performing political sounds with utter disregard for breaking the law to do it” shoes? Is this the future of the Republican Party?

As long as the voters support it, sure. Why not?
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:50 AM   #109
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If the Repuglicans are debauched enough to think that Ron (The Poor Man's Putin) DeSalmonella can waft them into the White House, they'll b'god nominate him in '24. Question: Can an inmate of a federal prison run for national office?

I don't ask that lightheartedly. Quite the opposite.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:53 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As long as the voters support it, sure. Why not?
Because illegal. I thought that was fairly obvious.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:53 AM   #111
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OT as hell, but

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As long as the voters support it, sure. Why not?
Warp, everybody knows you're a nihilist. You don't have to keep demonstrating it.
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Old 17th September 2022, 10:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Because illegal. I thought that was fairly obvious.

Meh. I mean if it is prosecuted with some major impact, that will possibly impact votes. But otherwise, who cares? I would say on any of it, if you can get away with it, and the voters support it, do it.

If someone doesn't like it, do something about it other than whine. There is a lot of whining over this...let's see the action.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:15 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The “performing political sounds with utter disregard for breaking the law to do it” shoes? Is this the future of the Republican Party?
As long as the voters support it, sure. Why not?
And yet....

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And yet....

They are perfectly congruent. The way the system should work is that lawbreakers are prosecuted. If there is no prosecution, then what does that say? The fact of the matter is, a lot of "iffy" stuff goes on in politics.

For example, I don't care about what DeSantis has done here until it is proven to be a prosecutable offense. If he is prosecuted, and convicted of a crime, I will stand by that decision. If the law has clearly been broken, he should be held accountable.

That is independent of whether it was a douchey action. What you can "get away with" is the reality of how law is enforced (or not).
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Wow. You’ve had forty years to get a few jokes and missed the point of every one.
No ****.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:51 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Meh. I mean if it is prosecuted with some major impact, that will possibly impact votes. But otherwise, who cares? I would say on any of it, if you can get away with it, and the voters support it, do it.

If someone doesn't like it, do something about it other than whine. There is a lot of whining over this...let's see the action.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
They are perfectly congruent. The way the system should work is that lawbreakers are prosecuted. If there is no prosecution, then what does that say? The fact of the matter is, a lot of "iffy" stuff goes on in politics.

For example, I don't care about what DeSantis has done here until it is proven to be a prosecutable offense. If he is prosecuted, and convicted of a crime, I will stand by that decision. If the law has clearly been broken, he should be held accountable.
Your response is in no way surprising. Claiming that "I don't care that someone broke the law unless they are prosecuted and convicted for it," is not "perfectly congruent" with "I stand with the law and those who enforce it."

Quote:
That is independent of whether it was a douchey action. What you can "get away with" is the reality of how law is enforced (or not).
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Meh. [hilite]I mean if it is prosecuted with some major impact, that will possibly impact votes. But otherwise, who cares? I would say on any of it, if you can get away with it, and the voters support it, do it.
You mean like the Southern Manifesto that was supported by the voters of the southern states after Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954?


Who cares? Oh, I dunno...people with a moral compass, some understanding of right vs wrong....Oh, never mind. I see the problem.
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Old 17th September 2022, 11:58 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Who cares? Oh, I dunno...people with a moral compass, some understanding of right vs wrong....Oh, never mind. I see the problem.

This is probably the last place to be trotting out that pony, let me tell you.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:03 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You mean like the Southern Manifesto that was supported by the voters of the southern states after Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954?

A discussion of that particular matter would be entirely OT, as you are aware.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:14 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is probably the last place to be trotting out that pony, let me tell you.
The irony....she burns.


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
A discussion of that particular matter would be entirely OT, as you are aware.
What I'm aware of is that it exposes the flaw in your "if the voters support it, it's ok despite its illegality" stand.
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Old 17th September 2022, 12:33 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And those people in Warsaw, man, they were so lucky to get out of the Ghetto and into a place where they could make an honest living working for the Germans.
$175K, food, phones and visa carda...and you make a Holocaust comparison.

Better hope the ADL doesn't get ahold of that.
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