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Old 17th September 2022, 05:00 AM   #1
Hercules56
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Jewish college bans all clubs rather than allow LGBT club

https://news.yahoo.com/yeshiva-u-blo...ycsrp_catchall

Reads like something out of 1968 Mississippi. "University bans ALL clubs rather than be forced to integrate".

Basically Yeshiva University has decided that if they must allow a LGBT club, then NO clubs will be allowed.

And I thought this was about "religious freedom". I guess they believe "freedom" means the right to be jerks and discriminate.

Sadness.
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Old 17th September 2022, 05:32 AM   #2
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Bet it's the "T+" bit that did it.
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:05 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bet it's the "T+" bit that did it.
The college has made no such claim. I wonder if they think Christian colleges should be allowed to ban Jews?
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Old 17th September 2022, 09:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The college has made no such claim.
Of course they haven't made such a claim. If they were, I would be stating a fact instead of speculating.

Quote:
I wonder if they think Christian colleges should be allowed to ban Jews?
Why would you wonder that? It has nothing in common with the issue being discussed here.
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Old 17th September 2022, 09:47 AM   #5
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The university has argued it is a religious institution. Orthodox Judaism, unlike Conservative and Reform Judaism, does not approve of same-sex relationships.

I don't have a problem with the above. But I think they need to make it clear up front that the school ain't for none of them gays and stuff. It's not right to take their money, and then bar them from having their own club.
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Old 17th September 2022, 06:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course they haven't made such a claim. If they were, I would be stating a fact instead of speculating.


Why would you wonder that? It has nothing in common with the issue being discussed here.
One can choose their religion, they can't choose to not be Gay.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:11 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
One can choose their religion, they can't choose to not be Gay.
What about trans?
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What about trans?
Yeshiva University has said nothing about being willing to accept a Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual club, just not for Transgenders.
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:38 AM   #9
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Discrimination is only thing when it happens to us, not them.

One more reason why education should be firmly separated from religion.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:11 PM   #10
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There was a pretty good documentary a few years back, Trembling before G-d, about gay and lesbian orthodox Jews. A synopsis is available on wikipedia for anyone interested.

Suffice it to say, I don't think religious communities where men are generally not permitted to shake hands with women because it's a road that leads ineluctably to sexual congress and thus violates Levitican law is really going to be cool with the L, G and B, but not T. That's just projection on the part of secular transphobes.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:42 PM   #11
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If it’s a private school that doesn’t receive any government support I have zero problems with it.
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Old 18th September 2022, 12:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
If it’s a private school that doesn’t receive any government support I have zero problems with it.
I don't have a problem with them banning all clubs, either. It shows how extreme they are willing to go to discriminate.
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Old 18th September 2022, 01:48 PM   #13
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Mod WarningDo not attempt to discuss anything trans-related in this thread that does not directly relate to the specific subject of this thread
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:sarge
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Old 18th September 2022, 03:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
If it’s a private school that doesn’t receive any government support I have zero problems with it.
I'd have some problems with it, at least insofar as I would think it was ******. I mean, it's perfectly legal to run a country club with a no-Jews-allowed policy, but if a friend of mine joined such a club, we would at the very least have words.

I kind of doubt there are any private schools in NYC that receive no city, state or federal funding. The relevant controversy seems to be about whether Yeshiva U meets the definition of religious corporation for the purposes of NYC's human rights law, and thus can be exempted from the expectation of non-discrimination in public accommodation.

Not being a lawyer, I don't have much to say about that, but as a layperson I will say that Yeshiva University can go **** itself.
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Old 18th September 2022, 05:03 PM   #15
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If SCOTUS let's them ban LGBT clubs, will LBGT students be next?
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Old 18th September 2022, 06:29 PM   #16
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let us know..
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Old 18th September 2022, 09:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If SCOTUS let's them ban LGBT clubs, will LBGT students be next?

If it is not a government-funded institution, is there a problem with not allowing LGBT students?

Personally, I don't think so. I would say the same about the opposite, or any say, "all female", "all male", or all "fill in the ethnicity" club/group.
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Old 19th September 2022, 05:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If it is not a government-funded institution, is there a problem with not allowing LGBT students?

Personally, I don't think so. I would say the same about the opposite, or any say, "all female", "all male", or all "fill in the ethnicity" club/group.
So long as they are not publicly funded in any way, students can not use governmental loans, scholarships or grants to go there, they are not accredited, and they make no profit, then they can exclude anyone they wish without upsetting me.
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Old 19th September 2022, 05:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
So long as they are not publicly funded in any way, students can not use governmental loans, scholarships or grants to go there, they are not accredited, and they make no profit, then they can exclude anyone they wish without upsetting me.

I agree with all of the above, with the exception of profit and perhaps accreditation. For example, are any all-female schools accredited? If so, I see no difference. I also don't see where profit matters at all? Can you elaborate?
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Old 19th September 2022, 07:30 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I wonder if they think Christian colleges should be allowed to ban Jews?
Private religious colleges are already allowed to require students and faculty to share their faith, at least in the United States.
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Old 19th September 2022, 08:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I agree with all of the above, with the exception of profit and perhaps accreditation. For example, are any all-female schools accredited? If so, I see no difference. I also don't see where profit matters at all? Can you elaborate?
You don’t see a difference between all-female schools and schools that prohibit LGBTQ+ students? I do. I see the same distinction as I see between an all-boys school and one that prohibits African-Americans from attending.

If a business (any for-profit institution) is prohibited from discriminating against people based on sex, age, race, ethnicity, etc, then the same institutions should be prohibited from discriminating based on sexual orientation. Their religious objections should not be given any weight. It is long past time for the US to marginalize out of existence all religious exceptions allowing these institutions to ignore basic civil rights.
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Old 19th September 2022, 10:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
You don’t see a difference between all-female schools and schools that prohibit LGBTQ+ students? I do. I see the same distinction as I see between an all-boys school and one that prohibits African-Americans from attending.

I don't see a problem with your latter example either, if it is a private institution.

Quote:
If a business (any for-profit institution) is prohibited from discriminating against people based on sex, age, race, ethnicity, etc, then the same institutions should be prohibited from discriminating based on sexual orientation. Their religious objections should not be given any weight. It is long past time for the US to marginalize out of existence all religious exceptions allowing these institutions to ignore basic civil rights.

The above sounds a lot like baking gay wedding cakes...and we know what the SCOTUS ruled on that. Religious objections are given weight. I doubt we are going to see a change in that anytime soon, with the current bench. And the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of this country has some sort of religious belief.
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Old 19th September 2022, 11:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't see a problem with your latter example either, if it is a private institution.
To make sure I understand, you would support the right of a private university to ban black students?

Quote:
The above sounds a lot like baking gay wedding cakes...and we know what the SCOTUS ruled on that. Religious objections are given weight. I doubt we are going to see a change in that anytime soon, with the current bench. And the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of this country has some sort of religious belief.
You asked what I find objectionable, not what I believe the rest of the US believes. Fortunately, the portion of the citizenry that wishes to impose their religious beliefs on others in the US is dying out. They are a minority now, and are shrinking with the death of every person who views the ‘50s as the ‘good old days’.

And the current crop of bat-crap crazies on the bench won’t last forever. Fundies are dying out. If we can just avoid another Trump/DeSantis/Cruze type for two decades, the US can become a first-world country that actually supports the civil rights of its citizens. Until then, we’ll just have to suffer bigots, like the ‘university’ that prompted this thread.
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Old 19th September 2022, 11:24 AM   #24
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I find it a bit odd that official clubs are even a thing. Let students make their own clubs without university approval or support, and this isn't even an issue.
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Old 19th September 2022, 11:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I find it a bit odd that official clubs are even a thing. Let students make their own clubs without university approval or support, and this isn't even an issue.
They usually require some form of funding to hold their meetings, etc. At least that's how it was in my school. That's probably where some of this comes in.

You can have clubs all you want without approval, but the students expect support.
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Old 19th September 2022, 11:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
If it’s a private school that doesn’t receive any government support I have zero problems with it.
Yea but they want to keep their tax exempt status, like the big to do when christian schools had to let in black students to keep their tax exempt status.
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Old 19th September 2022, 11:49 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
To make sure I understand, you would support the right of a private university to ban black students?

Yeah, and vice-versa. I mean, we have Universities that are definitely known as "black" schools. They may not officially ban others, but they definitely cater to their own. For example, only 1.2% of Howard students are white. Howard receives federal funding. There are plenty of schools that are nearly 90% white, as well.

Male, Female, White, Black, Gay, Hetero..I see it all about the same in these matters. As I say, I would only find this acceptable at a private institution. No government support whatsoever.
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Old 19th September 2022, 12:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
To make sure I understand, you would support the right of a private university to ban black students?
Supposing we did allow that, what would happen? And would that outcome be worse than if we didn't?

Seems to me that if a university did that, it would quickly become a pariah. Very few students would want to go there, very few employers would want to hire graduates from there. Seems like it would essentially be institutional suicide. I'm not sure we really need to prevent schools from doing that.

And if it did survive, well, there's some value in letting people self-identify. As Hank Hill said, "I think body piercings are a good thing. That way, you can tell if something's not right with a person." If a university bans black students, there's really no plausible deniability anymore that they're racist. That's useful information to have made public.

I think I might be OK with that.
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Old 19th September 2022, 01:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Supposing we did allow that, what would happen? And would that outcome be worse than if we didn't?

Seems to me that if a university did that, it would quickly become a pariah. Very few students would want to go there, very few employers would want to hire graduates from there. Seems like it would essentially be institutional suicide. I'm not sure we really need to prevent schools from doing that.

And if it did survive, well, there's some value in letting people self-identify. As Hank Hill said, "I think body piercings are a good thing. That way, you can tell if something's not right with a person." If a university bans black students, there's really no plausible deniability anymore that they're racist. That's useful information to have made public.

I think I might be OK with that.
Allowing discrimination would turn a university or even a state into a pariah? That's exactly what they said would happen if a state decided to ban abortion.

Huh....
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Old 19th September 2022, 01:34 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't see a problem with your latter example either, if it is a private institution.




The above sounds a lot like baking gay wedding cakes...and we know what the SCOTUS ruled on that. Religious objections are given weight. I doubt we are going to see a change in that anytime soon, with the current bench. And the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of this country has some sort of religious belief.

If we are going to allow colleges to have discriminatory policies, they should lose their tax exempt status. Somehow I think you don't agree with me.
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Old 19th September 2022, 01:54 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If we are going to allow colleges to have discriminatory policies, they should lose their tax exempt status. Somehow I think you don't agree with me.

I'm not going to say I disagree. Because that is not direct government funding, but in an indirect way it is. So, that is probably a reasonable suggestion. Something to put on the table, for sure.
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Old 19th September 2022, 04:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yeah, and vice-versa. I mean, we have Universities that are definitely known as "black" schools. They may not officially ban others, but they definitely cater to their own. For example, only 1.2% of Howard students are white. Howard receives federal funding. There are plenty of schools that are nearly 90% white, as well.

Male, Female, White, Black, Gay, Hetero..I see it all about the same in these matters. As I say, I would only find this acceptable at a private institution. No government support whatsoever.
We have no universities that ban, openly or otherwise, white students. Indeed, HBCU’s actively recruit them. Bluefield State, in WV, is an HBCU with 90% white enrollment. HBCUs average more than double the percentage of students that are white than non-historically black colleges do black students. I attended Hampton University myself, and am distressingly white. And, of course, HBCUs exist solely as a legacy of actively racist policy in state universities prior to the 1960s.

No institution that makes a profit or receives any form of public support, including tax advantages, should be allowed to practice discrimination based on race, ethnicity, religion, or orientation.
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Old 19th September 2022, 07:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
So long as they are not publicly funded in any way, students can not use governmental loans, scholarships or grants to go there, they are not accredited, and they make no profit, then they can exclude anyone they wish without upsetting me.
Sounds reasonable to me.

I'll betcha that isn't the case, however. Almost certainly students can use governmental loans, scholarships or grants to go there. In fact Yeshiva University has a web page explaining to prospective students how to apply for government aid to pay for tuition.

Also this:
https://www.yu.edu/cares-act-emergency-grants
Quote:
The total amount of HEERF I funds that Yeshiva University has received from the Department of Education pursuant to the Yeshiva University’s CARES Certification and Agreement for Emergency Financial Aid Grants to Students is $1,239,898. The total amount of HEERF II funds that Yeshiva University has received from the Department of Education pursuant to the Yeshiva University’s Certification and Agreement for Emergency Financial Aid Grants to Students under CRRSAA is $1,239,898. Yeshiva University has received $3,261,605 of HEERF III funds from the Department under the ARPA (a) and (a)(4) program for Emergency Financial Aid Grants to Students.
There's no question that they receive money from taxpayers. I'm not going to bother to try to make an exhaustive list of other grants that they probably receive, but I have no doubt that the above is but one example which was easy to Google.
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Old 19th September 2022, 07:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bet it's the "T+" bit that did it.
No, it's also the LGB bit. Maybe even primarily that.

Quote:
The university has argued it is a religious institution. Orthodox Judaism, unlike Conservative and Reform Judaism, does not approve of same-sex relationships.
In fact, if you look at the arguments being made in court, nothing about transgender issues is mentioned. Only same-sex relationships.

https://becketnewsite.s3.amazonaws.c...tion-Reply.pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...4_new_0971.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/22A184

As far as I can find, Yeshiva University has not publicly explained exactly why they want to ban this group. Nothing in their legal brief suggests that only the "T+ bit" is objectionable to them.

This is an official University statement though:
Quote:
Yeshiva is committed to ongoing dialogue with its students, but has concluded that an official Yeshiva Pride Alliance club is inconsistent with its Torah values.
(That's from their own brief)

https://reason.com/volokh/2022/09/14...student-group/

Quote:
A student group, the YU Pride Alliance (the Alliance), "vehemently disagreed" with Yeshiva's interpretation of Torah with respect to sexual relations between members of the same sex, so it applied for recognition as an official student group in order to "'make a statement'" and promote "'cultural changes'" in the institution.
(From Justice Alito's dissent.)
Again, nothing about transgender issues specifically. Only LGB issues are even mentioned.
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Old 20th September 2022, 05:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Allowing discrimination would turn a university or even a state into a pariah? That's exactly what they said would happen if a state decided to ban abortion.

Huh....
Who is "they"? I certainly never did.

And abortion isn't equivalent for many, many reasons. Most obvious for our present purposes, abortion is a very split issue, with lots of popular support on both sides. Racial discrimination has very little popular support. So why on earth would you expect the response to be similar? That's such an obviously unsupported position to take, I'm surprised you even tried it.
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Old 20th September 2022, 02:55 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
We have no universities that ban, openly or otherwise, white students. Indeed, HBCU’s actively recruit them. Bluefield State, in WV, is an HBCU with 90% white enrollment. HBCUs average more than double the percentage of students that are white than non-historically black colleges do black students. I attended Hampton University myself, and am distressingly white. And, of course, HBCUs exist solely as a legacy of actively racist policy in state universities prior to the 1960s.

No institution that makes a profit or receives any form of public support, including tax advantages, should be allowed to practice discrimination based on race, ethnicity, religion, or orientation.
Bluefield State is sort of interesting because they did something similar to the thread topic in that they made a categorical facially neutral change to effectively expel most of the Black students from a HBCU...

It was historically a Black school with most of the Black students from the African American pockets in the coal fields. Places like Gary in McDowell County. Bluefield itself is and was mostly white.

These institutions integrated in the late 50s. During the 60s Bluefield State started trending towards being a mostly white commuter school. In response to racial tension resulting from this the school closed all their dorms, effectively making it an overwhelmingly white commuter school.
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Old 20th September 2022, 09:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bet it's the "T+" bit that did it.
No, I am sure Yeshiva has never had to deal with attempts to start LBG clubs before, it just happened in 2022.

Err, okay you may have a point here.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:24 AM   #38
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Have fun with your smug pontificating but the students have been trying to get this club going since at least 2009 (according to students speaking about the issue) and yes it is the gay stuff full stop and not just new trans hotness that is being vehemently opposed by the guys where the buck stops. (Obviously a lot of students and faculty etc are in support of the club.)

Btw, the club has temporarily agreed to suspend itself during the stay so that the university doesn’t have to punish all the other clubs just to spite them.

A little background, from the school student paper:

“Students’ efforts to gain recognition for the LGBTQ club began in Feb. 2019, then under the name Gay-Straight Alliance. Following the university overruling their club approval, the students behind the effort restructured themselves as the “YU Pride Alliance” in Jan. 2020, hoping to gain approval by avoiding using LGBTQ terms in its name.

That effort failed as well, with student council presidents abstaining from approving the club and deferring to the administration, who refused to grant the club recognition.”

A lot of Jewish students are feeling really disheartened about this as this kind of thing brings both the genuinely deeply anti-gay orthodox minority, and the people who make broad accusations of Judaism in general of being rampantly homophobic, out of the woodwork.

Last edited by Lithrael; 21st September 2022 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:08 PM   #39
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NYT coverage

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/21/n...gbtq-club.html

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Old 21st September 2022, 07:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Private religious colleges are already allowed to require students and faculty to share their faith, at least in the United States.
Catholic and Anglican schools in Australia are allowed to discriminate on the basis of faith. But they do not. With the massive number of students mainly from China and India flocking here to pay tens of thousands of dollars a term for private education, they would be stupid to do so. I suspect the (relative few) fundamental Christian schools and Jewish schools have very strict entry requirements.
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