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Old 21st September 2022, 05:22 AM   #41
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.

Few men would ever dream of presenting as female in any way. My ex- would fret if his t-shirt was too long as he didn't want anyone to think he was wearing 'a skirt'.

That is the kind of toxic masculinity/femininity that I suspect of playing a role in gender dysphoria.
I had a girlfriend who objected to my pink sleeveless shirt, the kind that is often called a wife beater, because people (!) might not find it sufficiently masculine.

Remember the mutually assured humiliation of Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders?
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:27 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.
Then you haven't watched a scrum, ruck or maul in action. You haven't watched a big forward tackling a relatively lightweight back who's in full flight.

Relying on fear of being seen as 'cissy' misses the point entirely. 'What are we going to allow?' is the point that should be discussed.
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility. I doubt very much an 18st man would ever condescend to join a team of ladies. There is a taboo against men appearing to be 'cissy'.

Few men would ever dream of presenting as female in any way. My ex- would fret if his t-shirt was too long as he didn't want anyone to think he was wearing 'a skirt'.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Don’t comment on things you know nothing about.
I don't know if that's really fair on Vixen.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:15 AM   #45
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We seem to have returned to the suggestion, well, there are some transwomen who aren't a threat/pass well/are really needy. Can't we let these ones in?

Nobody has yet explained how, once you allow some males legal access to women's protected spaces and categories, you can keep any others out.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is the kind of toxic masculinity/femininity that I suspect of playing a role in gender dysphoria.
I had a girlfriend who objected to my pink sleeveless shirt, the kind that is often called a wife beater, because people (!) might not find it sufficiently masculine.

Remember the mutually assured humiliation of Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders?
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One occasion that hit this issue home with me is when my ex-sister-in-law, who was a trans man lesbian in a relationship with an 'ordinary' lesbian invited my then husband and I to a k.d.lang concert at Wembley. I knew k.d.lang was a female gay icon but I was amazed at the cosplay in place amongst the audience, which was largely female (I'd guess at least, 80%):
  • ex-sis-in-law was wearing a beautifully embroidered tuxedo, stylish haircut, male clothing
  • her partner, her usual jeans and t-shirt
  • almost all of the other members of the audience were in [lesbian] couples.
  • These couples had one partner who looked decidely male (butch)
  • and their partner decidely 'femme'.
I was not only shocked by the sheer 'coupledom' but also the parodying of heterosexual coupledom almost as a satire.

Of course one knows about sex roles but that was gobsmacking for me, tantamount to a culture shock. (Some of the 'femmes' were likely actual males.)
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:58 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
I'm probably somewhere in between where you were at the start of this thread and where you say you are now.
I don't have absolute answers to your questions, cause I don't know. A couple months ago I had zero knowlege of this subject, and I certainly am no expert now.

But I think my question is pertinent--should the transmen whose photo I linked above (or transwomen if you prefer) be denied access to traditional male(female) spaces or positions simply because they were born in the 'other' biological sex?
The conversation about trans rights would be a lot different if it were actually about people who can successfully pass, to the point where nobody is even aware that social norms are being flouted. But it's not.

And like I said, I'm not interested in the question of "passing".

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You (and most here) clearly think they should. I'm not so sure.
One thing you should be absolutely sure about is that I'm not interested in that question. Feel free to bring it up with anyone who is, but leave me out of it.

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Which is why I think it's absurd when you ask me for reasoning of why dob is easier than sex determination. To me, it's patently obvious. Whether you think the DSD or intersex population is .1% or 2%--that implies a challenge to the binary sex assumption that just isn't present when you have a timer and watch a baby emerge from a womb. That's why there are several other whole threads devoted to these subjects. Along with gender and gender ID. And how that relates to policy and societal measures is a whole other subject.

So I see it as complex--not necessarily as "sex is a spectrum" but also not "Its Man and Woman and that's it, baby!"
Fair enough. I appreciate you satisfying my curiosity about what you actually meant by that claim about DOB. But as you say, there's whole other threads for debating that particular issue. Which isn't relevant to the central issues being discussed in this thread.

Issues having to do with male access to sex-segregated spaces for females, under the banner of trans rights. I'd much rather have your take on those issues, than more sidetracks and red herrings about passing and DSDs.
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Old 21st September 2022, 07:58 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We seem to have returned to the suggestion, well, there are some transwomen who aren't a threat/pass well/are really needy. Can't we let these ones in?

Nobody has yet explained how, once you allow some males legal access to women's protected spaces and categories, you can keep any others out.
And that's the one thing I came into this thread looking to see explained, and have yet to see explained.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One occasion that hit this issue home with me is when my ex-sister-in-law, who was a trans man lesbian
The only way there's such a thing as a trans man lesbian is if trans, man, and lesbian have no useful meaning at all.
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Old 21st September 2022, 08:28 AM   #50
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A butch lesbian who identified as a trans man, perhaps temporarily, given the past tense in the sentence? There are quite a few of them, many posting blogs about how they were consumed by internalised homophobia when they transitioned, now regret it profoundly (if they had non-reversible body modifications) and feel so much better having embraced their true sex and understanding that butch lesbianism is a perfectly cromulent way to be a woman.
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Old 21st September 2022, 09:06 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A butch lesbian who identified as a trans man, perhaps temporarily, given the past tense in the sentence? There are quite a few of them, many posting blogs about how they were consumed by internalised homophobia when they transitioned, now regret it profoundly (if they had non-reversible body modifications) and feel so much better having embraced their true sex and understanding that butch lesbianism is a perfectly cromulent way to be a woman.
This is one of the weird things. Man and woman were not narrow words. I was just reading The Faerie Queene. There is room in that for a female knight, Britomart, who does all sorts of knightly stuff, while being unquestionably a woman. Once you start claiming all these other genders are necessary, you necessarily narrow people's idea of what "man" and "woman" means.

It's been a long while since I read the transcript of Joan of Arc's trial, but my recollection of that is that there is no suggestion that she isn't a woman. She is just a woman who claims God has told her to wear men's clothes and do manly things. The word "woman" was adequate to describe her without confusion or difficulty.

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Old 21st September 2022, 10:15 AM   #52
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Brienne of Tarth, in Game of Thrones, too. She's not even a lesbian. Spends quite a bit of time carrying a torch first for a character who is gay (Renly?) and then for Jaime Lanister, whom she doesn't know is already taken.

In the Volsunga Saga we see Brynhild and Bekkhild, the former liking battle and warfare (although surprisingly turning out to be a whizz at embroidery too), the latter preferring to stay at home and be a traditional woman. Nobody thinks Brynhild is a man though. Least of all Sigurd. Or Gunnar.

When I was younger, adults told us we could be what we wanted to be, and our sex shouldn't dictate our life choices. Now, the slightest sign of a "wrong" toy preference and girls are being told they're really boys and need puberty blockers, testosterone and a mastectomy. It's horrific.
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Old 21st September 2022, 10:22 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Brienne of Tarth, in Game of Thrones, too. She's not even a lesbian. Spends quite a bit of time carrying a torch first for a character who is gay (Renly?) and then for Jaime Lanister, whom she doesn't know is already taken.

In the Volsunga Saga we see Brynhild and Bekkhild, the former liking battle and warfare (although surprisingly turning out to be a whizz at embroidery too), the latter preferring to stay at home and be a traditional woman. Nobody thinks Brynhild is a man though. Least of all Sigurd. Or Gunnar.

When I was younger, adults told us we could be what we wanted to be, and our sex shouldn't dictate our life choices. Now, the slightest sign of a "wrong" toy preference and girls are being told they're really boys and need puberty blockers, testosterone and a mastectomy. It's horrific.
:-) I was thinking about you saying something like this in the past as I wrote my last post. Clearly there were societal expectations on men and women, but you didn't stop being a man or a woman when you went outside them.

ETA: The Volsunga Saga is on my reading list. Is it any good?

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Old 21st September 2022, 10:30 AM   #54
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I have to say it's kind of refreshing to have someone in this thread who's willing to take a stand for traditional, stereotypical, regressive gender roles and expressions. For literally years now we've been asking the TRAs what exactly it means to "be a woman" and "be treated like a woman". Finally Vixen is here with an answer.

Of course it's a terrible, incoherent mess of an answer. Which is probably why most TRAs have wisely pretended not to hear the question.
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Old 21st September 2022, 10:51 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
:-) I was thinking about you saying something like this in the past as I wrote my last post. Clearly there were societal expectations on men and women, but you didn't stop being a man or a woman when you went outside them.

ETA: The Volsunga Saga is on my reading list. Is it any good?

I think it's a cracker. Short, but packing in a great deal of action. A lot of the time the reader is left to imagine how the protagonists feel about what has happened while the story cracks on, but the characterisation is surprisingly sophisticated. Especially Sigurd, who is portrayed as this great hero, but there's something else going on there.

A family saga spanning six or seven generations in which everyone has in-law trouble. Dominated by three women all absolutely consumed by the desire for vengeance. (Well four if you count Borghild, but I'm not sure I do, she's not very interesting, why did Sigmund even marry her in the first place?)
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Old 21st September 2022, 11:08 AM   #56
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Now, of course, the TRAs are transing all the gender nonconforming women from the past. From Miranda Barrie to Joan of Arc. All men, you know, because women couldn't possibly have done these things.
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Old 21st September 2022, 11:27 AM   #57
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Again and again we see that one of the core principles of trans rights activism is that men make the best women.

"Why can't a woman be more like a man?"

- Henry Higgins

"Hold my beer and pretend it's a cosmo."

- Darren Merager
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Old 21st September 2022, 12:11 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What about contact sports? Is it okay for a male bodied transwoman boxer to beat up women?
That's my bottom line.

Put a pair of panties on Tyson Fury and let him legally kill some chick and you know what? The idiot pro-trans lobby would cheer.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rugby, like football, is largely a game of agility.


That's funny.

Protip: if you know absolutely nothing about a sport it's a good idea not to make idiotic comments about it.
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And a little more on the "trans" teacher with the big boobies:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-breasts.html

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The Halton District School Board said it would be against the Ontario Human Rights Code to criticize Oakville Trafalgar High School teacher Kayla Lemieux
It's The Fail, so take it as you will.
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Old 21st September 2022, 12:31 PM   #59
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As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.
They're so insanely huge I'm tempted to think that s/he's doing it as a protest of some kind.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by d4m10n
Imma call it "DSDodging" until someone coins a better term.
Oh, yes, I'll be using this from now on.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No average swimmer can beat an Olympic-class swimmer. What is your point, caller?

It has been shown multiple times that if you match élite athletes in a particular sport, men and women, for height, weight and wingspan, then men are still about 10% better than the women. Across the board.


That 10% advantage for identical sized athletes seems way too narrow. On what basis was that calculated?

Never mind, I found the study.
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Old 21st September 2022, 01:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They're so insanely huge I'm tempted to think that s/he's doing it as a protest of some kind.
When this thread first started, I kinda thought Rolfe's idea that the trans rights movement is a trojan horse for AGPs who get off on causing discomfort was uncharitable, conspiracy-theoretical, and quite possibly hateful.

Nowadays, I'm not so sure.
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Old 21st September 2022, 02:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They're so insanely huge I'm tempted to think that s/he's doing it as a protest of some kind.
A protest against Gaia, perhaps, for falling down on the job?

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Old 21st September 2022, 02:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay so I came across this passage which sums up the core of the issue quite nicely: Source

I'm taking the trouble to paste this passage in from an awkwardly formatted PDF b/c it's nice to see the central issue summed up succinctly in the words of an early advocate.
Someone let me know when we start reproducing using brain waves.
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Old 21st September 2022, 02:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
But I think my question is pertinent--should the transmen whose photo I linked above (or transwomen if you prefer) be denied access to traditional male(female) spaces or positions simply because they were born in the 'other' biological sex?

You (and most here) clearly think they should. I'm not so sure.
There are topics that we have discussed ad nauseum in this thread, and which many of us get tired of having to reiterate. But I'll give it another go.

Females that identify as transmen and take hormones pass significantly better as men than the other way around. Testosterone is a one-way street. It causes physiological changes that cannot be undone. Muscle mass is the very least of it, and the only thing that is somewhat "reversible" if a female stops taking testosterone. Facial hair, on the other hand, does not go away. Once the biological switches have been tripped, even if a female stops taking testosterone, they will not stop producing facial hair. Similarly, once their voice drops - which is a result of testosterone - it will never rise again. These changes are permanent in females.

Males that identify as transwomen and take hormones almost never pass even a little bit unless they have considerable cosmetic surgery. Estrogen alone will result in a repositioning of fat on the body, leading to marginally softer hips and face, as well as deposits of fatty tissue in the breast. But estrogen will not stop a male from growing facial hair, nor will it raise their voice, nor will it alter their skeletal structure. If a male stops taking estrogen, they will revert back to a male-typical muscle and fat distribution in relatively short order. The visual changes caused to a male by taking exogenous estrogen are not permanent.

In humans, females are better at sexing other humans than males are, although both are very good at it. Shown faces alone, in monochrome, without hair or make-up or clothing indicators, females correctly sex an unaltered human about 98% of the time, and males do so about 90% of the time. I have my speculations about why that is, but it's a bit off topic.

Facial hair is a strong indicator of sex in humans, as it's an element that is dimorphic in all but extremely rare cases of female hirsuitism. If a person has a beard, we will - all of us - assume they are male and rarely look closer.

The net result of all of these factors is that females who identify as transmen are less likely to be accurately sexed by cursory glance than are males who identify as transwoman.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On the topic of females who identify as transmen being required to use the single sex spaces of their biology... well, to be frank, most of us don't care which spaces they use. Some males would undoubtedly be put out by the presence of a female body being naked in their presence, and I can definitely empathize with that.

But the situations are not parallels.

I know some people don't want to admit it, but statistically males are materially more likely to be aggressive and violent, and to be sexual predators than females are. So there's an element of agency and risk involved in which spaces a transgender person uses, dependent on their sex.

I'll attempt a poor analogy here. Let's make the illustrative assumption that males are foxes and females are hens. If a hen decides that they are a "fox in spirit" and decides to go visit the fox's den... well, that's on them. They are the one who is accepting the known risk to themselves. The foxes may not like the hen in their den... and the foxes are completely capable of forcing that hen to either leave or face the easily foreseeable consequences of their presence.

On the other hand... if a fox decides they are a "hen in spirt" and decides to wander on into the hen coop... well that's something altogether different, isn't it? The hens are certainly not a threat to the fox, even if they greatly outnumber the fox. A single fox in a henhouse could cause immense harm if they so desired. And despite there being many hens to only one fox, it is the fox that represents the threat.

To break this analogy down to its salient point: When a female that identifies as a transman enters a male-only space, they are willingly accepting a risk to themselves. When a male that identifies as a transwoman enters a female-only space, they are imposing a risk on everyone except themselves.
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Old 21st September 2022, 02:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The only way there's such a thing as a trans man lesbian is if trans, man, and lesbian have no useful meaning at all.
I disagree a female that identifies as a transman, and is attracted to females, would by definition be a same-sex attracted female, and thus properly referred to as a lesbian.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:28 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I disagree a female that identifies as a transman, and is attracted to females, would by definition be a same-sex attracted female, and thus properly referred to as a lesbian.
"Lesbian" is among the many terms which must be redefined for the sake of the Central Tenet.

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Old 21st September 2022, 04:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
"Lesbian" is among the many terms which must be redefined for the sake of the Central Tenet.

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Indeed. Lia Thomas claims to be a lesbian.
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Old 21st September 2022, 04:35 PM   #70
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I am less exercised by the threat issue personally. I recognise it's a big issue, but somehow it doesn't seem real to me on an emotional level. My principle concern is one I have explained before. To have true freedom of choice human females exercise control over which males they allow to see them in an intimate situation. If we allow a male to see us undressed or partly undressed, that is a positive choice, and we choose to do that only with males we are intimate with or are signalling we are prepared to be intimate with.

Taking that choice away from us is a very real violation. It says, you do not get to choose who you permit to see you in an intimate situation, you do not have agency, you are being forced.

No, it's not rape, but it's a personal violation that has the same taste to it. And that applies whether the male who is in our space is domineering or considerate, violent or self-effacing.
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Lia Thomas claims to be a lesbian.
Does she? I'ven't heard.



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Old 21st September 2022, 05:14 PM   #72
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He has a girlfriend. He's heterosexual. That's part of the reason the swimming girls are so concerned.

Of course he claims to be a lesbian.
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Old 21st September 2022, 05:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I am less exercised by the threat issue personally. I recognise it's a big issue, but somehow it doesn't seem real to me on an emotional level. My principle concern is one I have explained before. To have true freedom of choice human females exercise control over which males they allow to see them in an intimate situation. If we allow a male to see us undressed or partly undressed, that is a positive choice, and we choose to do that only with males we are intimate with or are signalling we are prepared to be intimate with.

Taking that choice away from us is a very real violation. It says, you do not get to choose who you permit to see you in an intimate situation, you do not have agency, you are being forced.

No, it's not rape, but it's a personal violation that has the same taste to it. And that applies whether the male who is in our space is domineering or considerate, violent or self-effacing.
Also true. The consent aspect of it bothers me a huge amount.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:00 PM   #74
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This is an interesting conundrum for self-ID fetishists:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...22.893783/full

Research article suggests that the kinds of benefits you get from exercising at different times of day vary depending on whether you're a man or a woman.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:12 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.
It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:40 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.
The joke is in the assumptions that have to be made, to conclude that this man is or should be protected by the anti-discrimination laws and values.

The joke is one of those "it's funny because it's true" type jokes. People really are making those assumptions and applying those laws and values to this situation.
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Old 21st September 2022, 11:59 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It just seems amusing that people who are anti-transgender rights have to make out they are really concerned about female prisoners all of a sudden.
Why is that amusing to you? Actually, never mind your amusement which isn't of interest, why is it even a surprise to you?

Since day one of this thread chain (about 5 years back), the defence against trans rights activism has been focused on their claim for the right of males to unfettered access to female-only settings. This grossly violates the agency of women, such that opponents to this strand of TRA think the case for preservation (of female-only settings) substantially outweighs any case for biological males (including transwomen) to transgress it.

So of course this would extend to female-only settings in prisons as well, without prejudice. Women in prison have been penalised of liberty; they do not deserve to be penalised of the agency and dignity and safety associated with sex-segregated settings, which exist inside prison just as they do outside (in fact more so).

To not extend this concern to female prisoners would be decidedly misogynistic. Well that rings a bell in respect of your views.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:12 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.

Someone found the very item on sale. There is a word for it. It's in relation to a specific genre of Japanese animé porn.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 04:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Why is that amusing to you? Actually, never mind your amusement which isn't of interest, why is it even a surprise to you?

Since day one of this thread chain (about 5 years back), the defence against trans rights activism has been focused on their claim for the right of males to unfettered access to female-only settings. This grossly violates the agency of women, such that opponents to this strand of TRA think the case for preservation (of female-only settings) substantially outweighs any case for biological males (including transwomen) to transgress it.

So of course this would extend to female-only settings in prisons as well, without prejudice. Women in prison have been penalised of liberty; they do not deserve to be penalised of the agency and dignity and safety associated with sex-segregated settings, which exist inside prison just as they do outside (in fact more so).

To not extend this concern to female prisoners would be decidedly misogynistic. Well that rings a bell in respect of your views.

Exactly. The prisons issue has been a major concern from day one, or from the day it became clear that the authorities were actually going to give in to the trans lobby in respect of prisons.

I actually thought the prisons issue would be the one that would peak most people. The idea that women who are locked up and can't get away are being forced to share their accommodation with violent male sex offenders in bad wigs and lipstick should horrify anyone.

I heard a former governor of a woman's prison in Scotland speak on the issue and what she said was heartbreaking. The women in prison have very low self-esteem, and one of the things that was organised to improve this was a monthly fitness prize, to encourage the women to exercise healthily and compete for prizes that were really worth something - little treats that are hard to get in prison. Then this trans guy is admitted to the prison and just swans up and wins it. No contest. And the women are so cowed they had to say all the right things about how they respected "her" and her right to be her "authentic self" when a journalist found out about it and came calling.

But hey, out of sight out of mind. It seems to be the sports issue that's getting the most traction in public discourse.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 09:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Someone found the very item on sale. There is a word for it. It's in relation to a specific genre of Japanese animé porn.
I think it's fair to say some parents would still complain if a cisgender female wore those things while teaching a class.
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