Intruder enters and attacks Pelosi's Husband

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by plague311

But to me they're the same thing. Recognizing what could have been done is not all that different than stating would could be done in the future. You're recognizing areas that need improvement and coming up with solutions.

Is anyone here under the impression the cops and Nancy aren't going to do the same thing with him? If they have an alarm system, I bet they'll tell him to set it. I bet they'll find ways to secure the house a bit more. If something like this happened to my parents, or someone in my family, that's the first damn thing we'd do. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't you?

I can only speak to my individual case - my parents had an alarm system that had to be removed because they kept screwing it up and auto-dialing the cops. That gets really expensive after a while. They were approximately the same age as Mr. Pelosi when this all happened.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I can only speak to my individual case - my parents had an alarm system that had to be removed because they kept screwing it up and auto-dialing the cops. That gets really expensive after a while. They were approximately the same age as Mr. Pelosi when this all happened.

The cops charged them for coming out and looking at an alarm going off? I had no idea that was a thing, so I learned something new today.

Ok, then no security systems for old people. Deal. I'll drop it now.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by plague311

The cops charged them for coming out and looking at an alarm going off? I had no idea that was a thing, so I learned something new today.

Ok, then no security systems for old people. Deal. I'll drop it now.

There was a grace rate of 2-3 alarms a month.

[Thermal]

So Congress is authorizing $10,000 per congressperson for home security, and $150/month for monitoring and maintenance. Seems like people above a certain net worth should not need to dip into taxpayer funds for freebies. The Pelosis are awash in cash, IIRC? Seems they could pony up for their own home security, much like a building contractor pays for his own safety equipment as "part of the job". Also, 10G and a buck and a half per month seems like an awfully generous package. Things like new deadbolts are included. I mean, come on. That's generic homeowner level. Might be overly cynical, but it sounds a like a little free home improvement gift on the taxpayer dime.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Thermal

So Congress is authorizing $10,000 per congressperson for home security, and $150/month for monitoring and maintenance. Seems like people above a certain net worth shoild not need to dip into taxpayer funds for freebies. The Pelosis are awash in cash, IIRC? Seems they could pony up for their own home security, much like a building contractor pays for his own safety equipment as "part of the job". Also, 10G and a buck and a half per month seems like an awfully generous package. Things like new deadbolts are included. I mean, come on. That's generic homeowner level. Might be overly cynical, but it sounds a like a little free home improvement gift on the taxpayer dime.

I agree. It's not like they're making peanuts working for the government either. My job doesn't give me a damn thing for home security. I have installed several security camera systems and you can put in a really, really nice 5-8 camera system for no more than $1k, maybe $1.5k if you're going high end. I could do one for my house on $300.

It's obvious that, at least the Pelosi's, aren't using the monitoring either.

The idea that alarm systems are tough for older people has got me a little confused too. Nowadays it's nothing more than a button in an app. Press it, done. Link it to Alexa and tell her to do it, or siri or google or whomever.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I like how quickly this thread has gone from Obvious MAGA to crazy person to let's talk about home security.

I came in to check to see if it had moved on to denouncing Elon Musk.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A functional alarm system would have dialed 911 automatically when the first window was smashed,

Maybe, maybe not.

From what I understand, many/most alarm systems here in Canada do not call 911 directly. They call the security/alarm company, who tries to follow up (is there a real emergency or false alarm?) before having either security guards or police contacted.

If that's the case, it might have made the response slower than Pelosi simply calling 911 directly when he did. (Especially if Pelosi thought "no need to call 911... my security system did it already.)

ETA: Its also possible that, due to the number of false alarms, police put triggered security alarms at a lower priority than actual 911 calls.

Quote:

Bright motion-sensing lights switching on might even have discouraged him as soon as he entered the yard.

I have heard different opinions on the value of motion-sensing lights.

One claim is that they do help deter break-ins by highlighting when someone is trespassing.

The other is that they are counter-productive... Since people often ignore the lights when the come on (false positives and all), they can help the criminal break in by providing extra light to work with.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I like how quickly this thread has gone from Obvious MAGA to crazy person to let's talk about home security.

False dichotomy - he could be both.

[JoeMorgue]

Also there's no steps between "Obvious MAGA" and "Crazy Person" they are the same thing.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Thermal

So Congress is authorizing $10,000 per congressperson for home security, and $150/month for monitoring and maintenance.
...
Might be overly cynical, but it sounds a like a little free home improvement gift on the taxpayer dime.

A few questions we might ask:
1) Is the $10,000 across the board, or just a maximum that they could spend? I can imagine a situation where many/most congress critters spend only a fraction of the allotted value
2) How closely are the expenses monitored? Do congress critters have to submit receipts? Get multiple quotations for the work to be done? Or is the money just given to them with the hopes that they will spend it wisely for the purpose it is intended to?

[sackett]

Now that de Pape has shown the way, others will follow. Will they all be as crazy and inept?

Not that I'm proposing a wager.

[RecoveringYuppy]

I don't know that every Congress person needs unusual security and I'm sympathetic to the idea that many of them want to live normal lives but the top leadership would seem to be a legitimate exception. I tend to think that security for them and their immediate family ought to be mandatory and they can't turn it off (at least not completely). I'm thinking something along the lines of remotely monitored, heat/motion activated perimeter cameras to detect trespassers. That can be done at reasonable cost for four to eight residences.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Bob001

For the sake of discussion, if the guy is "mentally ill," should he be exempted from prosecution? Suppose he spends three months in a hospital and his docs say "He's made great progress. We'll treat him as an outpatient." Should he be back on the streets? (Maybe he could be a spokesman for an alarm company.)

Actual discussion should probably have a thread of its own, but in short, the Bene Gesserit approach strikes me as a useful framing: Either you're a human being, or an animal. And we have very few compunctions about putting down animals that inconvenience human society.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Darat

False dichotomy - he could be both.

Yeah, but he's not.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

A few questions we might ask:
1) Is the $10,000 across the board, or just a maximum that they could spend? I can imagine a situation where many/most congress critters spend only a fraction of the allotted value
2) How closely are the expenses monitored? Do congress critters have to submit receipts? Get multiple quotations for the work to be done? Or is the money just given to them with the hopes that they will spend it wisely for the purpose it is intended to?

From the link I posted above:

Quote:

Driving the news: Beginning Aug. 15, the House sergeant-at-arms will cover certain security system equipment and installation costs at lawmakers' personal residents up to a combined total of $10,000.

The sergeant-at-arms will pay for fixed-rate monitoring and maintenance costs of up to $150 per month for each lawmaker, per the memo.

Members with multiple residences will determine how the $10,000 installation allotment and the $150 monthly monitoring and maintenance allowance will be utilized, the memo said.

Equipment can include motion sensors, enhanced locks and cameras, exterior lighting and recorders, among other systems.

Lawmakers will select a bona fide security company, which will be reviewed by the sergeant-at-arms, to install any of the equipment.

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/27/hou...anced-security

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Maybe, maybe not.

From what I understand, many/most alarm systems here in Canada do not call 911 directly. They call the security/alarm company, who tries to follow up (is there a real emergency or false alarm?) before having either security guards or police contacted.

If that's the case, it might have made the response slower than Pelosi simply calling 911 directly when he did. (Especially if Pelosi thought "no need to call 911... my security system did it already.)

ETA: Its also possible that, due to the number of false alarms, police put triggered security alarms at a lower priority than actual 911 calls.
....

It could work in all those ways. The security company would call the home and ask "Do you need help?," and call the cops if the answer was yes or there was no answer. That wouldn't keep the homeowner from dialing 911 himself, and the neighbors might start calling 911 themselves. And the police keep records of false alarm calls. I suspect they would respond pretty quickly to an alarm in the middle of the night to a location that hadn't been a problem.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by plague311

But to me they're the same thing. Recognizing what could have been done is not all that different than stating would could be done in the future. You're recognizing areas that need improvement and coming up with solutions.

Is anyone here under the impression the cops and Nancy aren't going to do the same thing with him? If they have an alarm system, I bet they'll tell him to set it. I bet they'll find ways to secure the house a bit more. If something like this happened to my parents, or someone in my family, that's the first damn thing we'd do. Who wouldn't and why wouldn't you?

Sure, the "logical ways to prevent it from happening again" will be the same as, or similar to, those that one might have done to prevent it happening in the first place, but the circumstances are different when it happens for the first time, and if you did not mean "again," then perhaps you shouldn't have said it. After your dog bites someone, you can say the dog should have a muzzle, and rightly assign blame if it does not, and you can say it's too bad the dog didn't already have a muzzle, but it's not the same observation.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Thermal

So Congress is authorizing $10,000 per congressperson for home security, and $150/month for monitoring and maintenance. Seems like people above a certain net worth should not need to dip into taxpayer funds for freebies. The Pelosis are awash in cash, IIRC? Seems they could pony up for their own home security, much like a building contractor pays for his own safety equipment as "part of the job". Also, 10G and a buck and a half per month seems like an awfully generous package. Things like new deadbolts are included. I mean, come on. That's generic homeowner level. Might be overly cynical, but it sounds a like a little free home improvement gift on the taxpayer dime.

Do you and your family routinely get death threats because of your job? Somebody was almost murdered in his home because his wife is a member of Congress. $10 grand per member is a trivial expense, compared to the cost of one death or severe injury.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

....
His doctors said they expect him to make a full recovery. If there's brain damage, they'd know it by now.
....

Would they? They can be sure he'll recover from the fracture. It might be too early to know about long-term aftereffects.

Quote:

The University of Cincinnati Health Center (UC Health) says that a skull fracture, or a break in the skull bone, can be mild and cause few problems over time. However, severe breaks to the skull can lead to bleeding, brain damage and seizures.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/oth...ed/ar-AA13v3d9

Quote:

Pelosi’s doctors have expressed optimism about his recovery. But according to Dr. Angela Lumba-Brown, a traumatic brain injury expert at Stanford Health and associate vice chair of emergency medicine, victims of assault are more likely to have a traumatic brain injury than are people who fall, get into car crashes or suffer sports injuries — the other leading causes of head trauma.

“The unique thing about brain injury from assault is that it has been linked to a higher risk of post-traumatic stress,” she said. “Which makes sense” because the person has been attacked.

Abrams of UCSF also cautioned that older people “tend not to do as well with brain injuries in general,” and noted that such injuries can be made worse by underlying problems that have accumulated over the years, including cognitive deficiencies.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...e-17542594.php

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

.....
Tell that to Osama bin Laden, Haiti's President Jovenel Moïse, Guinea-Bissau President Joao Bernardo Vieira who were all assassinated at home by professionals.
.....

None of those were Americans, and those attacks didn't occur in the U.S.

.....

Quote:

Sharon Tate, along with several others, including a friend of my late FIL's, were killed by a hit team sent by Charles Manson.

None of those victims were public officials, and Manson was just crazy -- another lunatic at work -- not part of a plot to overthrow the government ("Helter Skelter" notwithstanding).

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I really don't understand the usefulness of the "security measures" discussion. The patio doors are plainly like 90% glass and there's absolutely no configuration of locks you could have theoretically put on them that was going to inconvenience a guy who came with a hammer and is fine with smashing through as much glass as he needs to because he obviously gives less than a damn about making any noise or being detected.

That would be the place for tasteful security doors and shatterproof safety glass.

[JoeMorgue]

Donald Trump Jr. is an awful human being.

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status...027714/photo/1

[Bob001]

Federal charges filed. State charges to come.

Quote:

CNN — The man alleged to have attacked Paul Pelosi, husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has been charged with assault and attempted kidnapping following last week’s break-in at the couple’s San Francisco home, the US attorney’s office announced on Monday.

David DePape, 42, was charged with one count of “attempted kidnapping of a US official,” according to the US attorney’s office for the Northern District of California. That charge relates to Nancy Pelosi and carries a maximum of 20 years in prison. CNN has reported that DePape allegedly shouted “Where’s Nancy?” after breaking into their home.

DePape also was charged with one count of assault of an immediate family member of a US official with the intent to retaliate against the official. That charge relates to a crime allegedly committed against Paul Pelosi and carries a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison.

The federal charges against DePape are in addition to state charges that may also be announced on Monday.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/31/polit...ged/index.html

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Do you and your family routinely get death threats because of your job? Somebody was almost murdered in his home because his wife is a member of Congress.

No, I don't get threats. I'm facing the actual Reaper more or less constantly. The difference is, I'm not asking you to pay for more safety for me while I chill to Netflix in my multi-million dollar digs. I'll run the casualty risk of my line of work against theirs any day.

Yes, I get the obvious difference. My objection is that when you are drowning in cash, you really don't need to suckle at the taxpayer teat at every opportunity. How about leaving those funds alone for those in genuine need?

Quote:

$10 grand per member is a trivial expense, compared to the cost of one death or severe injury.

Only 10 large, my balls. It's millions of dollars, man, and they are damn well paid highly enough to foot that bill on their own dime. I'd much rather see discretionary funds go to the homeless or any of a host of other programs for the non-millionaire contingent of the US of A. When kids aren't going hungry, we can treat congresspeople to freebie stuff that everybody else ponies up out of pocket. You can afford to live in a multi million dollar neighborhood? You can afford your own ******* ADT contract.

As noted already, $10k + $150/mo is an awful lot of money for security and cameras and deadbolts. Like, a ridiculous amount. Sounds more like a little free home upgrade package is going to get tucked into such a fat budget, or at least the potential is there. Like, instead of a $40 Schlage deadbolt, the contractor can be dropping a nice new $1000 Baldwin leverset with coordinated smartlock to vanish in the paperwork.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I like how quickly this thread has gone from Obvious MAGA to crazy person to let's talk about home security.

Well...isn't that a good thing? We could have a dozen pages of "see? The Right are a bunch of mad dogs". Instead, we talk about reasonable protections for high profile civil servants, with the occasional sidebar to how these things might work for our own home security, too, since the subject is on the table and all.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

It goes back farther than that, Barry Goldwater started the republican party on the road to is current position as a treasonous terrorist group by allying the party with southern neo-confederates and far right fundamentalist christians. Trump is a symptom of the disease in the US body politic, not a cause.

When I said it goes back to Trump, I was referring to all this rigged election nonsense which is the cause of the current violent crop of idiots threatening politicians and their families, election workers, etc. Trump not just a symptom, he is also a cause. We did not see this level of political violence before Trump.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Would they? They can be sure he'll recover from the fracture. It might be too early to know about long-term aftereffects.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/oth...ed/ar-AA13v3d9


https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...e-17542594.php

The quotes you provided are general statements about brain injuries. In this case, Pelosi's doctors know how severe the injury was and have evaluated him both pre- and post-op concerning his speech, memory, cognitive abilities, etc.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

None of those were Americans, and those attacks didn't occur in the U.S.

.....


None of those victims were public officials, and Manson was just crazy -- another lunatic at work -- not part of a plot to overthrow the government ("Helter Skelter" notwithstanding).

Oh, good God Almighty! You said "And I don't understand the complaints that "nothing will stop a determined assassin." It doesn't MATTER if they were Americans or that they happened in the US or not! They were still assassinated in their home while under protection. Or are American assassins and victims somehow different than those in other countries?
You totally ignore the one that DID happen in the US, or will you now nit-pick the fact that Seward survived when you said "killed"?

Again, you're resorting to nit-picking irrelevant details in an effort to stand your ground. It doesn't MATTER that the Tate murder victims weren't public officials; neither is Paul Pelosi. As for Manson being crazy--he wasn't actually involved in the murders himself, so his mental condition has zero to do with the fact that he sent assassins--who were NOT crazy-- to kill and they did.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
False dichotomy - he could be both.

Yeah, but he's not.

How do you know he's not?

From Politico:

Quote:

In more recent years, DePape has embraced the false claims that the November 2020 election was stolen, reposting on Facebook — in an account since removed from the platform — bogus claims by MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell and others associated with the campaign.

He reposted a video on YouTube denouncing the investigation into the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol as a “farce,” according to CNN.

A blog featuring content authored by DePape offers a patchwork embrace of bigoted and fringe topics, including posts that feature anti-Semitic language, allege the existence of a “communist” agenda in schools and repeat many of the tropes of the online fever dream known as QAnon, which alleges without evidence that leading figures engage in pedophilia.

Sounds pretty MAGA to me.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Thermal

So Congress is authorizing $10,000 per congressperson for home security, and $150/month for monitoring and maintenance. Seems like people above a certain net worth should not need to dip into taxpayer funds for freebies. The Pelosis are awash in cash, IIRC? Seems they could pony up for their own home security, much like a building contractor pays for his own safety equipment as "part of the job". Also, 10G and a buck and a half per month seems like an awfully generous package. Things like new deadbolts are included. I mean, come on. That's generic homeowner level. Might be overly cynical, but it sounds a like a little free home improvement gift on the taxpayer dime.

With what their salary is, a congressman can freaking afford 150 A month for security.
Not to mention you have to have a fair amount of money just to run for congress nowdays.
This crap is why most people dislike congress, no matter which party is in control.
And you have to be awash in cash to afford a home in Pacific Heights in SF to begin with. Just read one of the big money palyers for the 49ers only live a block or so away from Pelosi.
Nothing againsy Pelosi, but this congress bill is pure Pork.

[dudalb]

Elon Musk just tweeted a BS conspiracy theory about the Pelosi attack.
Man, that Time Man Of The Year award went to his head.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by bruto

Sure, the "logical ways to prevent it from happening again" will be the same as, or similar to, those that one might have done to prevent it happening in the first place, but the circumstances are different when it happens for the first time, and if you did not mean "again," then perhaps you shouldn't have said it. After your dog bites someone, you can say the dog should have a muzzle, and rightly assign blame if it does not, and you can say it's too bad the dog didn't already have a muzzle, but it's not the same observation.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Well...isn't that a good thing? We could have a dozen pages of "see? The Right are a bunch of mad dogs". Instead, we talk about reasonable protections for high profile civil servants, with the occasional sidebar to how these things might work for our own home security, too, since the subject is on the table and all.

Honestly, how much is there left to talk about until more is known? The basics of the case are known. Paul was attacked by a MAGA turd that wanted to kill\kidnap his wife. There's some pretty limited conversation left.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've been saying. She lives in a $4 million house, and she's made more than $10k just by being in the government, and I ain't talking about wages. She\they can pay for their own home security, and if they don't want to then that sucks for them but it shouldn't be on us.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Elon Musk just tweeted a BS conspiracy theory about the Pelosi attack.
Man, that Time Man Of The Year award went to his head.

Beclowning Time's MOTY award is an awesome responsibility, and Elon Musk is just the man to fulfill it.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Beclowning Time's MOTY award is an awesome responsibility, and Elon Musk is just the man to fulfill it.

Why? Trump didn't do a good enough job at it already?

[Stacyhs]

DePape threatened to break Nancy P's kneecaps:

Quote:

Mr. DePape was looking for Ms. Pelosi, who was in Washington at the time, to interrogate the speaker on an unspecified political matter, according to the federal complaint. If she told the “truth,” he would let her go, but if she “lied,” he intended to break her kneecaps — forcing her to be wheeled into Congress as a lesson to other Democrats, Mr. DePape told police officers in an interview.

Quote:

Officers with the San Francisco Police Department arrived eight minutes later to find the two men struggling over a hammer.

Earlier reports said the police arrived within 2 minutes, not 8.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Oh, good God Almighty! You said "And I don't understand the complaints that "nothing will stop a determined assassin." It doesn't MATTER if they were Americans or that they happened in the US or not! They were still assassinated in their home while under protection. Or are American assassins and victims somehow different than those in other countries?
You totally ignore the one that DID happen in the US, or will you now nit-pick the fact that Seward survived when you said "killed"?

Again, you're resorting to nit-picking irrelevant details in an effort to stand your ground. It doesn't MATTER that the Tate murder victims weren't public officials; neither is Paul Pelosi. As for Manson being crazy--he wasn't actually involved in the murders himself, so his mental condition has zero to do with the fact that he sent assassins--who were NOT crazy-- to kill and they did.

And in 1918 Bolsheviks massacred the entire Russian royal family. So what? The discussion here is about what are the threats that senior U.S. public officials actually face, and what are reasonable and practical precautions against them. Are you comparing Paul Pelosi to Osama Bin Laden? Or David DePape to Seal Team Six? Or do you say nothing short of an infantry battalion could have prevented Pelosi's near-murder? Or what? I honestly don't understand the point you are trying to make, or the indignant tone of your posts.

To summarize, I contend that moderately priced, widely available measures would have kept DePape (and his ilk) out of Pelosi's house, and particularly out of his bedroom, long enough for police to respond. What do you find objectionable in that position?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by plague311

Honestly, how much is there left to talk about until more is known? The basics of the case are known. Paul was attacked by a MAGA turd that wanted to kill\kidnap his wife. There's some pretty limited conversation left.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've been saying. She lives in a $4 million house, and she's made more than $10k just by being in the government, and I ain't talking about wages. She\they can pay for their own home security, and if they don't want to then that sucks for them but it shouldn't be on us.

Right. I get that being an outspoken public servant will attract negative attention, some outright crazy, that most of us don't have to deal with. Jim Brady might have some thoughts on that. Maybe a freshman representative like a fledgling AOC could use a boost. But after a certain point of net worth, the handouts should cease.

I remember being pissed at McCain when he said he was drawing Social Security, while still serving as a Senator and being married to the freaking heiress to the Anheuser-Busch fortune. He didn't need to pump a floundering system for some extra cash, entitled to it or not.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

The quotes you provided are general statements about brain injuries. In this case, Pelosi's doctors know how severe the injury was and have evaluated him both pre- and post-op concerning his speech, memory, cognitive abilities, etc.

Have you seen his medical records? Pelosi is still in the ICU. I hope he recovers completely. But the links I saw and others seem to indicate that consequences might not be immediately apparent, especially for an 82-year-old victim.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

And in 1918 Bolsheviks massacred the entire Russian royal family. So what? The discussion here is about what are the threats that senior U.S. public officials actually face, and what are reasonable and practical precautions against them. Are you comparing Paul Pelosi to Osama Bin Laden? Or David DePape to Seal Team Six? Or do you say nothing short of an infantry battalion could have prevented Pelosi's near-murder? Or what? I honestly don't understand the point you are trying to make, or the indignant tone of your posts.

To summarize, I contend that moderately priced, widely available measures would have kept DePape (and his ilk) out of Pelosi's house, and particularly out of his bedroom, long enough for police to respond. What do you find objectionable in that position?

My tone is frustration at your nit-picking and absurd LOOK! SQUIRREL! attempts. I'm done.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by plague311

Why? Trump didn't do a good enough job at it already?

Apparently not, if people are still taking it seriously.