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Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

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Old 27th January 2020, 03:52 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It was Sheila Caffel.
Nonsense.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
She misaligned inflicted flesh wound then figured where her brain was located.
Oh good grief, that is beyond silly.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is incomprehensible to me how anyone on ISF can believe in this appalling hoax.
By what is seemingly an exotic procedure; logical reasoning.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Are you aware of the Dunning–Kruger effect?.
Are you aware of the idea of the presumption of innocence?
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:33 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Are you aware of the idea of the presumption of innocence?
I am. That ended with the entirety appropriate conviction of that mass murdering sociopath.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:50 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I am. That ended with the entirety appropriate conviction of that mass murdering sociopath.
Nicely circular.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:36 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Nicely circular.
Not really. The way it generally works is this:

1. Presumed Innocent.
2. Tried and convicted.
3. No longer presumed innocent.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:55 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Not really. The way it generally works is this:

1. Presumed Innocent.
2. Tried and convicted.
3. No longer presumed innocent.
As for 3, No longer presumed innocent.

This says nothing about facts, but a lot about belief and opinion. In the case of Bamber Anne Eaton is believed to have planted evidence. We know she got Bamber's house, and should undoubtedly be arrested as JB is currently advocating.
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Old 12th February 2020, 06:00 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
As for 3, No longer presumed innocent.

This says nothing about facts, but a lot about belief and opinion. In the case of Bamber Anne Eaton is believed to have planted evidence. We know she got Bamber's house, and should undoubtedly be arrested as JB is currently advocating.
Your position is a great example of "belief and opinion".
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:21 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Your position is a great example of "belief and opinion".
Research is king of the castle.
I have read all case material and Carol Ann Lee’s book.
It is more certain Jeremy Bamber is innocent than gravity makes an egg break on the ceiling.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:41 AM   #409
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Even the drama "White House Farm", that is sympathetic to the prosecution, makes it clear that there was nowhere near sufficient credible evidence to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

The failures in evidence gathering, the credible exculpatory evidence and alternative explanation and the failure to disclose evidence are all reasons why Bamber's conviction is unsafe.

We should all be worried about a CJ system that will convict in such circumstances. The problem is that too many people think it will never happen to them or one they care for, so there is not the will to change.
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Old 13th February 2020, 01:56 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Nicely circular.
Oh good grief.
No. Just no. Try and produce a coherent argument.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:06 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
As for 3, No longer presumed innocent.

This says nothing about facts, but a lot about belief and opinion.
Sigh. No. The mass murdering Bamber was convicted based on facts and evidence.
A tiny group of people don't accept these facts.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
In the case of Bamber Anne Eaton is believed to have planted evidence. We know she got Bamber's house, and should undoubtedly be arrested as JB is currently advocating.
Bollocks. Bamber may fool a few gullible people but that doesn't mean his drivel has any credence.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

Last edited by zooterkin; 13th February 2020 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Fixing broken tag
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:55 PM   #412
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It's not the strongest of cases, but I think there's no reasonable alternative to considering Bamber guilty.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:09 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
It's not the strongest of cases, but I think there's no reasonable alternative to considering Bamber guilty.
Which simply means you haven't read competing reconstructions.

One works the other doesn't.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:14 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Which simply means you haven't read competing reconstructions.

One works the other doesn't.
I've read this thread as well as other things, and I don't accept your narrative as plausible. I don't think Sheila could've done these murders. I think Jeremy most likely did.
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Old 14th February 2020, 04:32 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I am. That ended with the entirety appropriate conviction of that mass murdering sociopath.
... hence...

Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Nicely circular.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh good grief.
No. Just no. Try and produce a coherent argument.
The investigation was slapdash and the conviction didn't pass he beyond reasonable doubt test. PACE '84 came in not too long before the investigations and I don't think it's stretching things too much to assume that some police officers were still wedded to older methods.

This in not an argument, just an opinion.
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Old 14th February 2020, 05:19 AM   #416
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With these guys firghting his corner I cant see Jeremy getting out anytime soon:

Quote:
it seems very likely that Sheila was unconscious in the kitchen when the police broke into the house and they left her unattended. She then regained consciousness and went upstairs to the master bedroom where she shot herself and died.
WTF!

Quote:
The police then drafted in large numbers of officers for police training exercises where they used Sheila Caffell to practice taking the gun on and off of her body. This is shown in the photographs. This is the secret Essex police have tried to hide for 26 years in the name of British Justice.
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/alibis-1
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Old 14th February 2020, 01:44 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. No. The mass murdering Bamber was convicted based on facts and evidence.
A tiny group of people don't accept these facts.


Bollocks. Bamber may fool a few gullible people but that doesn't mean his drivel has any credence.
Do you accept the Bamber camp claim that there is evidence that was not disclosed at the time of the original trial?
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I've read this thread as well as other things, and I don't accept your narrative as plausible. I don't think Sheila could've done these murders. I think Jeremy most likely did.
That is simply an argument from incredulity. The evidence suggests she shot herself when surrounded, which is not dissimilar to the Bain case.
For some odd reason people seem more comfortable shooting others than themselves, and in these two similar cases the evidence shows it was at the last minute. The discomfort of shooting oneself becomes outweighed by the anticipation of the opprobrium imminent in explaining to the world killing ones own children.

Robin Bain killed his family then some hours later himself, and Sheila Caffel did the same thing (a few years earlier).

There is no doubt in either case.
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:26 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That is simply an argument from incredulity. The evidence suggests she shot herself when surrounded,
Not even remotely true.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 14th February 2020, 02:39 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
With these guys firghting his corner I cant see Jeremy getting out anytime soon:



WTF!



https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/alibis-1
This is very suspect;

"Message Log (7:37am)
“One dead male and one dead female in Kitchen”

Message Log (7:40am)
“The police entered the premises and found 1 male dead and 1 female dead.”

We also see at 8:10am on the same log, that the police found a further three bodies upstairs. This clearly contradicts the official line that they found one male downstairs and a further four bodies upstairs."
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Old 14th February 2020, 03:55 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That is simply an argument from incredulity.
It's no such thing. We simply don't accept the same evidence as relevant. I think that you accept the rather desperate, scattershot claims of the defense as true because that's the narrative you support. I'm not pretending to be certain, as you are, because I'm not interested in proving anything, which you are.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The evidence suggests she shot herself when surrounded
I don't think it does. I think we can agree that there was some bad police work, and I think that there were inconsistent reports that confused the issue. For example, the idea that Sheila was alive in the kitchen when the police arrived is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
which is not dissimilar to the Bain case.
Please don't muddy the thread with comparisons to other cases. They are not relevant.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
For some odd reason people seem more comfortable shooting others than themselves, and in these two similar cases the evidence shows it was at the last minute. The discomfort of shooting oneself becomes outweighed by the anticipation of the opprobrium imminent in explaining to the world killing ones own children.
Also please don't muddy the thread with maundering, purely speculative generalities such as these. They add nothing to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Robin Bain killed his family then some hours later himself, and Sheila Caffel did the same thing (a few years earlier).

There is no doubt in either case.
Clearly there's enough doubt in this case that Bamber is in prison, and is likely to remain there. I'd love to hear some theory of why the police would conspire to put him there when they already had a closed case for murder/suicide that required zero additional effort and definitely pleased the public. The path of least resistance was obviously to consider Sheila the murderer. The only problem was the facts in evidence.
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Last edited by eerok; 14th February 2020 at 04:20 PM.
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