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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 22nd April 2018, 07:29 AM   #3081
Vixen
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Vixen, you claim to be so smart. Consider the facts;

o You know eye witnesses routinely misidentify people. This has nothing to do with Curatolo, this is a statistical fact.

o You know Curatolo claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele at night, from a distance. Under the best of circumstances this can make identifying people difficult, even if you know them personally.

o You know Curatolo was adamant that he saw Amanda and Raffaele on the night the disco buses were running, people were in costume and were partying. In other words, there is no doubt his testimony is that he saw them Halloween night.

Given this, please explain how anyone can conclude anything other than he saw two kids on Halloween night who he thought were Amanda and Raffaele but was wrong.

Here is what Nencini wrote in his report, referring to (and concurring) with the reasoning of the Cheiffi court;

"The Supreme Court went on to examine the weight given to the evaluation of the witness Curatolo, in relation to whom it emphasized the non-logical reasoning of the judgment and the incorrect exercise of the evaluation power of the appeal Judge because of solid case facts that certainly ruled out that the event described by the witness could have happened in the night between 31 October and 1 November 2007, being that both the defendants, on the evening of 31 October 2007, were busy in different places, Amanda Marie Knox at Diya Lumumba's pub and Raffaele Sollecito at a graduation party."

This reasoning ONLY works if you know for certain that Curatolo DEFINITELY saw Amanda and Raffaele. Since there is no proof of this, and we know how often eye witnesses misidentify people, there is no basis for either court to reach the conclusion they do. It is classic confirmation bias. Hellmann and Marasca got it right, Cheiffi and Nencini did not.

So Vixen, how about a logical explanation for why Cheiffi and Nencini ruled as they did - without the poetry.
That is why identification from an identification parade is not acceptable evidence in court on its own.

There were buses running that night. That his memory is fallible shows integrity, as a liar would make sure their account was spot on perfect. (cf Knox shoehorning her alibi to rule out her presence at the murder. For example, put back the time of dinner later and later, and then 'at 11:00pm' to clash with the forensic police setting TOD circa this time.)
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Old 22nd April 2018, 07:39 AM   #3082
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Fact is, Curatalo was an eyewitness to some of the antics of Raff and Amanda on the murder evening after they both simultaneously switched off their phones.

The kiosk owner nearby where Curatalo sat verified he was indeed there that evening.

His account of the men in forensic suits arriving next day is also verifiable.

No. It's not a "fact".

Fact is, Curatolo claimed - several months after the event - that he saw Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder.

But another fact is that he claimed that on the same night he saw Knox and Sollecito there were white buses in the square picking up students who'd gathered there in hoards wearing costumes. Which corresponds ONLY with the evening/night of Halloween - the evening/night BEFORE the murder.

And another fact is that Curatolo was a chronic abuser of heroin all throughout the time period around the murders, and by his own admission had almost certainly used heroin on the evening/night in question.

And another fact is that Curatolo had been busted by Perugia police dealing heroin (with incontrovertible evidence of him dealing to an undercover police officer) several years before the Kercher murder, yet he still had not been charged at the time of the Kercher murder. He was subsequently charged and convicted as soon as his "use" to the police and prosecution in the Knox/Sollecito trial process was over.


It doesn't take a genius, Vixen, to take all these facts as a whole and draw one single, inevitable conclusion. (Hint: it's not the conclusion to which you subscribe.....).
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Old 22nd April 2018, 07:45 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is why identification from an identification parade is not acceptable evidence in court on its own.

There were buses running that night. That his memory is fallible shows integrity, as a liar would make sure their account was spot on perfect. (cf Knox shoehorning her alibi to rule out her presence at the murder. For example, put back the time of dinner later and later, and then 'at 11:00pm' to clash with the forensic police setting TOD circa this time.)


Oh. My. Word.

You're actually claiming that the fact that Curatolo states there were disco buses and hoards of students in costumes on the same night as he saw Knox and Sollecito in the square (when the disco buses and students can only correspond with the night before the murder) ENHANCES the credibility of his claim to have seen Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder???!!!!

You've become totally and utterly blinded by confirmation bias. And a shocking lack of critical thinking.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 07:53 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh. My. Word.

You're actually claiming that the fact that Curatolo states there were disco buses and hoards of students in costumes on the same night as he saw Knox and Sollecito in the square (when the disco buses and students can only correspond with the night before the murder) ENHANCES the credibility of his claim to have seen Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder???!!!!

You've become totally and utterly blinded by confirmation bias. And a shocking lack of critical thinking.
..... and this is before considering that if Curatolo is right and that the night in question had been Nov 1, his testimony gives the pair an alibi....

But don't tell Vixen.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 08:51 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He did. Several people have been to the former Piazza Grimana and verified there is a clear view of the cottage from where Toto sat.
Statement analysis tells us that it is crucial to this claim to find out who those "several people" are. Statement analysis also implies that we should note that it is only these people and not all people.

My bet? One is an astrologer. If several=2 my bet is that the other is an astrologer too.

Statement Analysis also tells us that Vixen listens to these "several", rather than the vast majority of disinterested people who've been in Piazza Grimana and conceded that the cottage is quite invisible from there.

It would have been unanimous except for these "several" who know what's at stake for Curatolo's credibility.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 09:27 AM   #3086
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Fact is, Curatalo was an eyewitness to some of the antics of Raff and Amanda on the murder evening after they both simultaneously switched off their phones.

The kiosk owner nearby where Curatalo sat verified he was indeed there that evening.

His account of the men in forensic suits arriving next day is also verifiable.
As is his statement to the police that day, which is that he saw nothing and knew nothing, which was verified by everyone else in the area (including the tow truck party etc).

Both Quintavalle and Curatolo made statements to the police shortly after the crime, and their statements are given considerable weight by me and any thinking person.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 09:37 AM   #3087
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PGP have often shown stupidity by coming up with ridiculous ideas and the discussion of the witnesses is an example of this. One ridiculous idea PGP come up is the idea unreliable witness testimony becomes reliable if courts accept it. This idea is completely stupid and I will use an example to illustrate my point. Prisoner A says whilst he was in prison prisoner B confessed to him he committed the crime prisoner B is awaiting trial for. Records show prisoner A was in a completely different prison from prisoner B. Despite this a court accepts the testimony of prisoner A and use this as evidence against prisoner B. It would be physically impossible for prisoner A to have heard prisoner B make a confession and the testimony of prisoner A clearly has no credibility. It would be ridiculous to suggest the testimony of prisoner A becomes credible because the courts say so and the courts would be stupid to accept the testimony of prisoner A.
The links below show the testimony of Nara, Quintavelle and Curalto lacked credibility and were full of holes. It is ridiculous to suggest the testimony of these people miraculously become credible and the numerous holes in their testimony vanished because the Massei and Nencini court accepted their testimony. The judges in these courts were extremely stupid in accepting the testimony of witnesses who provided unreliable testimony riddled with flaws. It is a sign of how corrupt and dysfunctional the Italian justice system is when evidence lacking in credibility can be used to convict people. Massei and Nencini were kangaroo courts which meant these courts were more than happy to use unreliable evidence to convict people.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...mised-witness/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/marco-quintavalle/

If the police/prosecution had a mountain of solid, credible and damming evidence and a slam dunk case against Amanda and Raffaele, why did the police/prosecution have to resort to using evidence with no credibility full of holes such as the testimony of Nara, Quintavelle and Curalto and over a decade after Meredithís murder PGP have to base their arguments on this evidence. Having to rely on such evidence indicates the police/prosecution have such a chronic lack of evidence and a weak case they have to resort to using evidence with no credibility which is a sign of desperation. If the testimony of Curalto is to be accepted, he has Amanda and Raffaele, away from the cottage at the time of the murder and gives Amanda and Raffaele an alibi which actually damages the prosecutionís case. This indicates the prosecution had such a weak case and lack of evidence, the prosecution and PGP in desperation are prepared to use evidence which damages their case.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:13 PM   #3088
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh. My. Word.

You're actually claiming that the fact that Curatolo states there were disco buses and hoards of students in costumes on the same night as he saw Knox and Sollecito in the square (when the disco buses and students can only correspond with the night before the murder) ENHANCES the credibility of his claim to have seen Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder???!!!!

You've become totally and utterly blinded by confirmation bias. And a shocking lack of critical thinking.
Buses were running. It's feasible there were still Halloween parties going on. Here in London, many of them fall on a weekend or Friday rather than 31 October itself, if it happens to be midweek.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:18 PM   #3089
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
..... and this is before considering that if Curatolo is right and that the night in question had been Nov 1, his testimony gives the pair an alibi....

But don't tell Vixen.
No. Raff was at a graduation party on Halloween (Catholic Italains don't much bother with Halloween).

Knox was <sfx opening bars of All By Myself> kicking her heels, stewing, whilst popular Mez was out having fun with all her friends and having the time of her life.

Can you imagine the resentment, when Amanda arrived back at the cottage first thing next day to confront Mez, and she had to wait and wait and wait, until Mez pulled herself out of the pit at circa 2:00, only to go out with friends...again, leaving green-eyed Knox to plot revenge with her flaky boyfriend itching to try out his knives on a real person.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:27 PM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Statement analysis tells us that it is crucial to this claim to find out who those "several people" are. Statement analysis also implies that we should note that it is only these people and not all people.

My bet? One is an astrologer. If several=2 my bet is that the other is an astrologer too.

Statement Analysis also tells us that Vixen listens to these "several", rather than the vast majority of disinterested people who've been in Piazza Grimana and conceded that the cottage is quite invisible from there.

It would have been unanimous except for these "several" who know what's at stake for Curatolo's credibility.

Here you go:

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/per...reets/5106.pdf
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:34 PM   #3091
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
PGP have often shown stupidity by coming up with ridiculous ideas and the discussion of the witnesses is an example of this. One ridiculous idea PGP come up is the idea unreliable witness testimony becomes reliable if courts accept it. This idea is completely stupid and I will use an example to illustrate my point. Prisoner A says whilst he was in prison prisoner B confessed to him he committed the crime prisoner B is awaiting trial for. Records show prisoner A was in a completely different prison from prisoner B. Despite this a court accepts the testimony of prisoner A and use this as evidence against prisoner B. It would be physically impossible for prisoner A to have heard prisoner B make a confession and the testimony of prisoner A clearly has no credibility. It would be ridiculous to suggest the testimony of prisoner A becomes credible because the courts say so and the courts would be stupid to accept the testimony of prisoner A.
The links below show the testimony of Nara, Quintavelle and Curalto lacked credibility and were full of holes. It is ridiculous to suggest the testimony of these people miraculously become credible and the numerous holes in their testimony vanished because the Massei and Nencini court accepted their testimony. The judges in these courts were extremely stupid in accepting the testimony of witnesses who provided unreliable testimony riddled with flaws. It is a sign of how corrupt and dysfunctional the Italian justice system is when evidence lacking in credibility can be used to convict people. Massei and Nencini were kangaroo courts which meant these courts were more than happy to use unreliable evidence to convict people.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...mised-witness/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/marco-quintavalle/

If the police/prosecution had a mountain of solid, credible and damming evidence and a slam dunk case against Amanda and Raffaele, why did the police/prosecution have to resort to using evidence with no credibility full of holes such as the testimony of Nara, Quintavelle and Curalto and over a decade after Meredith’s murder PGP have to base their arguments on this evidence. Having to rely on such evidence indicates the police/prosecution have such a chronic lack of evidence and a weak case they have to resort to using evidence with no credibility which is a sign of desperation. If the testimony of Curalto is to be accepted, he has Amanda and Raffaele, away from the cottage at the time of the murder and gives Amanda and Raffaele an alibi which actually damages the prosecution’s case. This indicates the prosecution had such a weak case and lack of evidence, the prosecution and PGP in desperation are prepared to use evidence which damages their case.
That's some conspiracy theory you've got there! Not only are three totally independent witnesses suddenly in collusion with each other 'to fix it so that Knox and Sollecito get the blame', although we are given no reason why they would do that other than a half-baked theory, 'the mad Catholic satan-obsessed prosecutor managed to hypnotise them into doing his will as he had an unhealthy fixation on the promiscuous American girl', and not only that, he bewitched Massei, Chieffi and Nencini and at least 21 lay judges, even though he wasn't even on the case after Massei.
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Last edited by Vixen; 22nd April 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:34 PM   #3092
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Raff was at a graduation party on Halloween (Catholic Italains don't much bother with Halloween).

Knox was <sfx opening bars of All By Myself> kicking her heels, stewing, whilst popular Mez was out having fun with all her friends and having the time of her life.

Can you imagine the resentment, when Amanda arrived back at the cottage first thing next day to confront Mez, and she had to wait and wait and wait, until Mez pulled herself out of the pit at circa 2:00, only to go out with friends...again, leaving green-eyed Knox to plot revenge with her flaky boyfriend itching to try out his knives on a real person.
Can you imagine taking a crime where the killer was found standing over the victim dripping blood with knife marks on his hand and obsessively inventing some Disney teen movie drama about the two casually acquainted flatmates that lived there for like a month. Just imagine
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:35 PM   #3093
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Once again, vixen posts something which proves nothing.

But vixen has confirmed who these "several people" are. Yet another bogus claim from a bogus, and known to be bogus source.

The pic of the window below Filomena's room cannot be far behind.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:36 PM   #3094
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Please stop using the familiar name for the victim. Show some decency.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:39 PM   #3095
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Please stop using the familiar name for the victim. Show some decency.
William, stop trolling.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:40 PM   #3096
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Raff was at a graduation party on Halloween (Catholic Italains don't much bother with Halloween).

Knox was <sfx opening bars of All By Myself> kicking her heels, stewing, whilst popular Mez was out having fun with all her friends and having the time of her life.

Can you imagine the resentment, when Amanda arrived back at the cottage first thing next day to confront Mez, and she had to wait and wait and wait, until Mez pulled herself out of the pit at circa 2:00, only to go out with friends...again, leaving green-eyed Knox to plot revenge with her flaky boyfriend itching to try out his knives on a real person.
Please stop using the familiar name for the victim.

You also have a theory of premeditation, a theory that no court accepted. Why you keep going despite all judges disagreeing with you - judges from all sides - is a mystery.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:42 PM   #3097
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
William, stop trolling.
Please at least show some decency. Playing tit for tat does not address anything but a willingness to continue this disrespectful practice of yours.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:45 PM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Buses were running. It's feasible there were still Halloween parties going on. Here in London, many of them fall on a weekend or Friday rather than 31 October itself, if it happens to be midweek.

No. I suggest you go back and read Curatolo's statements once again. You will see that he was unequivocally referring to the buses picking students up to go to the out-of-town discos. He was not referring to regular scheduled municipal buses. And he was also unequivocally referring to hoards of student revellers wearing costumes.

In 2007, Halloween (31st October) fell on a Wednesday. All of the big out-of-town discos had Halloween costume parties on that evening. The evening before the murder. The buses picked up the (predominantly student) partygoers from the square (Piazza Grimana).

Now, in Perugia the big out-of-town discos usually had a major night on Thursday nights. BUT in 2007, because they were all holding huge Halloween parties on the Wednesday night of 31st October, they all closed the following day, Thursday 1st November. The night of the murder.

And it's farcical to suggest that "it's feasible that there were still Halloween parties going on - for three significant reasons: 1) All the big clubs had Halloween parties on Wednesday - the day of Halloween itself - and all were closed on the following day; 2) Why on earth would there be any Halloween parties on 1st November? Halloween is, very specifically and exclusively, 31st October; 3) in Italy, the day after Halloween (1st November) carries a special significance of reverence and observance - it's All Saints' Day (a holy day of obligation in Catholic Italy), when families traditionally meet up and have a dinner to commemorate deceased family members. It's in effect inconceivable that there would have been "Halloween" parties on Thursday 1st November in Perugia.


Curatolo was wrong. His testimony was worthless. He was a heroin addict at the time and by his account would have used heroin on the days in question. He unquestionably mixed up the night on which he claimed to have seen Knox and Sollecito with the revelries and disco buses of the night before, Halloween. He told the police shortly after the murder that he'd seen nothing relevant, he only "remembered" when prompted by a journalist several months later, and even then he had to have several goes at "remembering" in his police statements before he stumbled on a version the police/prosecutor thought they could use against Knox and Sollecito. Oh and - as many other have pointed out - even if he DID see Knox and Sollecito on the night of the murder (which, as I say, is flatly contradicted by other elements in his "recollection"), his version of events would actually tend to exonerate Knox and Sollecito!

All in all, a shambles. As the Supreme Court could so easily see. The far bigger question is why the convicting courts were so shockingly craven to this prosecution witness (and to the entire prosecution case in general). Even a fool could see from the get-go that Curatolo was entirely worthless as a "witness".
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:47 PM   #3099
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Buses were running. It's feasible there were still Halloween parties going on. Here in London, many of them fall on a weekend or Friday rather than 31 October itself, if it happens to be midweek.
LMAO at your hail Mary attempt to excuse Curatolo's claim about the busses. Is Nov. 1 always a school holiday in London as well as in Italy? HINT: No, it's not.

The disco busses which Curatolo described were NOT running on Nov. 1 as testified to by the disco owners.

Quote:
Disco owners and bus drivers testified that most discos were closed on the night of Nov. 1, 2007 because they had their big Halloween events on the night before. Bus drivers said buses to the discos were not running that night.

One owner of a discotheque on the outskirts of Perugia who testified on Saturday told the Appeals court that his disco was closed that night as were all the other big discos.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=13227541

Despite your claim otherwise, the cottage is not visible from the benches where Curatolo was sitting. A friend of mine was in Perugia a few years ago and specifically checked if the cottage was visible. She said it was absolutely not visible from where Curatolo was sitting. That is supported by the pictures here:
http://perugia-injustice.blogspot.co...a-grimana.html

Unless you can provide evidence to support your claim (other than "several people have said"), I suggest you stop repeating this falsehood.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:50 PM   #3100
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Vixen - you appeal to the Massei, Chieffi, and Nencini courts as a reason why Curatolo should be believed.

Yet you continue to push premeditation as an element of this crime, an element no judge agreed with, including ones of those courts.

Why do you champion some courts on some issues, but ignore them when they're finding something that does not agree with your guilter-PR campaign?
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:54 PM   #3101
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Another weird thing about the PGP is they aren't upset at Quintavalle for not thinking to mention his supposed encounter with Knox when the police were literally asking him about it while holding up a picture of her.

Like if I was PGP I would be like...Quintavalle you *********** idiot, that was a great time to bring it up, holy **** you are hurting the case with your antics m8.

But they defend him as if his behavior didn't potentially compromise the case, even though he is literally cited as unreliable by two acquitting judicial panels at this point, including definitively.

There's something different and weird about the PGP, the way they view the case. It's not a position or a viewpoint. They aren't internally consistent. Their beliefs are incompatible with their actions which are counter to their cause.

Some guilter talking points are actually grounded in a position of viewing Amanda Knox as innocent. Like calling her a convicted felon as a pejorative is something that only works if she's innocent. Why would a secretly guilty murderer care if they are technically a convicted felon?

If there was a button to push to reveal the historical reality of what happened, those least likely to push are PGP, which is crazy when you consider they're the group that comprehends what happened the least and don't even have a coherent version of events they believe. It's a strange group.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 12:55 PM   #3102
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Raff was at a graduation party on Halloween (Catholic Italains don't much bother with Halloween).

Knox was <sfx opening bars of All By Myself> kicking her heels, stewing, whilst popular Mez was out having fun with all her friends and having the time of her life.

Can you imagine the resentment, when Amanda arrived back at the cottage first thing next day to confront Mez, and she had to wait and wait and wait, until Mez pulled herself out of the pit at circa 2:00, only to go out with friends...again, leaving green-eyed Knox to plot revenge with her flaky boyfriend itching to try out his knives on a real person.
Wow. That's some wild imagination you have there! Have you thought of writing for sites like TJMK and True Crime podcasts or even teaming up with NvdL? They really appreciate this kind of writing.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:00 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LMAO at your hail Mary attempt to excuse Curatolo's claim about the busses. Is Nov. 1 always a school holiday in London as well as in Italy? HINT: No, it's not.

Yes. The additional fail to Vixen's "argument" is that she suggested that if Halloween fell in midweek, it's possible that some parties might get deferred to "Friday or the weekend". And in theory this seems to make some sense.

But....

As you correctly point out, the day following Halloween in 2007, Thursday 1st November, was a public holiday anyhow. Very few people had to go to work or college etc the day after Halloween. And indeed that's PRECISELY why all the big clubs held their Halloween costume parties on the day of Halloween itself, even when it fell on a Wednesday. And what makes Vixen's "argument" even more of a fail in respect of 2007 is that Friday 2nd November was a regular work day. It makes it even more inconceivable that there would have been Halloween parties on the night of Thursday 1st November.

There were no Halloween costume parties in Perugia on the evening of Thursday 1st November 2007. For numerous obvious reasons which all competent critical thinkers can easily figure out, when they examine the evidence. And, in turn, this drives a coach and horses through Curatolo's attempt at being a witness.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:17 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
William, stop trolling.
I have never requested that you stop hurling ad hominem at either me or any other ISF poster. Accuse away, since it is the mods' job to prevent that. Accuse away.

Just show some decency in relation to the victim and her family.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:22 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes. The additional fail to Vixen's "argument" is that she suggested that if Halloween fell in midweek, it's possible that some parties might get deferred to "Friday or the weekend". And in theory this seems to make some sense.

But....

As you correctly point out, the day following Halloween in 2007, Thursday 1st November, was a public holiday anyhow. Very few people had to go to work or college etc the day after Halloween. And indeed that's PRECISELY why all the big clubs held their Halloween costume parties on the day of Halloween itself, even when it fell on a Wednesday. And what makes Vixen's "argument" even more of a fail in respect of 2007 is that Friday 2nd November was a regular work day. It makes it even more inconceivable that there would have been Halloween parties on the night of Thursday 1st November.

There were no Halloween costume parties in Perugia on the evening of Thursday 1st November 2007. For numerous obvious reasons which all competent critical thinkers can easily figure out, when they examine the evidence. And, in turn, this drives a coach and horses through Curatolo's attempt at being a witness.
If Curatolo had said he'd seen Knox and Sollecito beam into the square and out a la Star Trek, Vixen would claim he was still a credible witness. It's been rather amusing watching her attempts to validate Curatolo, Quintavalle, and Kokomani.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:30 PM   #3106
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BTW if Grinder were here he would remind us that technically Curatolo should have been a star witness for the defense, since he provided an alibi for the duration of the crime.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:32 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
BTW if Grinder were here he would remind us that technically Curatolo should have been a star witness for the defense, since he provided an alibi for the duration of the crime.
I miss Grinder.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 01:42 PM   #3108
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
BTW if Grinder were here he would remind us that technically Curatolo should have been a star witness for the defense, since he provided an alibi for the duration of the crime.

Yes, he did.

But there's another factor at work, and one which IMO carried far more weight with the convicting courts. And that's to do with the intended destruction of Knox's/Sollecito's alibi - that they were together alone in Sollecito's apartment all that evening/night. See: if Curatolo's claim to have seen Knox/Sollecito in and around the square over the period of a few hours that evening/night is accepted, then this necessarily means that Knox/Sollecito must have been lying about being in Sollecito's apartment. And - so the thinking continues - why would they lie about their location unless they had something big to hide.

In my view, the moment the convicting courts accepted Curatolo's testimony, they went a long way towards convicting Knox and Sollecito on this issue alone, for the reason given above. The courts could always find a way to "finesse" Curatolo's timings, while satisfying themselves that the important component of his testimony was that he saw Knox/Sollecito in/near the square at all on that evening/night. And that meant Knox and Sollecito were lying about their alibi. And that meant they MUST be guilty, right?

(The convicting courts were wrong about Curatolo, of course. His testimony is fundamentally flawed and entirely lacking in credibility and reliability.)
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:45 PM   #3109
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LMAO at your hail Mary attempt to excuse Curatolo's claim about the busses. Is Nov. 1 always a school holiday in London as well as in Italy? HINT: No, it's not.

The disco busses which Curatolo described were NOT running on Nov. 1 as testified to by the disco owners.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=13227541

Despite your claim otherwise, the cottage is not visible from the benches where Curatolo was sitting. A friend of mine was in Perugia a few years ago and specifically checked if the cottage was visible. She said it was absolutely not visible from where Curatolo was sitting. That is supported by the pictures here:
http://perugia-injustice.blogspot.co...a-grimana.html

Unless you can provide evidence to support your claim (other than "several people have said"), I suggest you stop repeating this falsehood.
Ann Wise, the writer of the ABC News article is a paid shill. She doesn't even hide it. She writes gushingly:

Quote:
Knox appeared more relaxed on Saturday than she had at recent hearings. Her younger sister Deanna was in court along with her stepfather Chris Mellas and friend Madison Paxton.

Deanna Knox had not seen her sister since her conviction in December 2009.

"I got to see her yesterday alone, for the first time," Deanna Knox told ABC News. "We were very excited, jumping up and down, and we kind of held each other the whole time, for an hour, basically" she said.

Asked how she found her sister after all this time, Deanna replied "Amanda is always going to be just Amanda, but every time a court date comes around she gets nervous. I can tell that about her, even if she won't admit it."

Deanna also added, however, that her sister is "very, very hopeful" regarding her appeal.

She is a two-bit hack who has nothing at all to do with the process of a criminal court.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:50 PM   #3110
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LMAO at your hail Mary attempt to excuse Curatolo's claim about the busses. Is Nov. 1 always a school holiday in London as well as in Italy? HINT: No, it's not.

The disco busses which Curatolo described were NOT running on Nov. 1 as testified to by the disco owners.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=13227541

Despite your claim otherwise, the cottage is not visible from the benches where Curatolo was sitting. A friend of mine was in Perugia a few years ago and specifically checked if the cottage was visible. She said it was absolutely not visible from where Curatolo was sitting. That is supported by the pictures here:
http://perugia-injustice.blogspot.co...a-grimana.html

Unless you can provide evidence to support your claim (other than "several people have said"), I suggest you stop repeating this falsehood.

You are able to see people coming and going from the cottage from the spot Toto says the pair were craning over the railings.

The defence accept the view is verifiable, so the claims of Ann Wise and co are simply products of her anal sphincter.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:51 PM   #3111
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ann Wise, the writer of the ABC News article is a paid shill. She doesn't even hide it. She writes gushingly:




She is a two-bit hack who has nothing at all to do with the process of a criminal court.
That you would offer that as an example of Ann Wise being a "paid shill" and a hack is all anyone needs to read to get a bead on your agenda.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:52 PM   #3112
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Vixen - you appeal to the Massei, Chieffi, and Nencini courts as a reason why Curatolo should be believed.

Yet you continue to push premeditation as an element of this crime, an element no judge agreed with, including ones of those courts.

Why do you champion some courts on some issues, but ignore them when they're finding something that does not agree with your guilter-PR campaign?
The three were charged with Aggravated Murder, which attracts the maximum sentences. There was thus no requirement for the prosecution to argue premeditation.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:54 PM   #3113
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
That you would offer that as an example of Ann Wise being a "paid shill" and a hack is all anyone needs to read to get a bead on your agenda.
Do convicted murderers usually get such a sympathetic write up in the media?
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:55 PM   #3114
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are able to see people coming and going from the cottage from the spot Toto says the pair were craning over the railings.

The defence accept the view is verifiable, so the claims of Ann Wise and co are simply products of her anal sphincter.
Your claim was that Curatolo could see the cottage from the piazza, then you post a pick from the view on the east side of the basketball court, which itself doesn't show the cottage....

Then you move the goalposts by claiming the issue was the comings ang goings "to and from the cottage".

How would anyone know that esp. if they had no idea who lived where?
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:59 PM   #3115
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The three were charged with Aggravated Murder, which attracts the maximum sentences. There was thus no requirement for the prosecution to argue premeditation.
Once again you display a serious reading comprehension issue.

Either that our you are willfully moving the goalposts.

We were not talking about what the prosecution did or did not argue. We were talking about ALL the courts finding no premeditaion. Two of the courts even invented out of whole cloth innocent reasons why they'd thought Knox had innocently carried a knife.

And all that was after you had gone on a rant that Amanda had been so hurt about Halloween that she had purposely devised a plan to kill. No one believes that except for you any maybe a handful of the most bizarre guilters!

Try again. At least have the courtesy to read the posts - in a thread you yourself started!
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Old 22nd April 2018, 03:00 PM   #3116
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do convicted murderers usually get such a sympathetic write up in the media?
You first have to prove that Ann Wise was a paid shill. It's your accusation, so prove it.

Oh wait. It's not up to you to prove any of your assertions. Got it.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 03:03 PM   #3117
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Your claim was that Curatolo could see the cottage from the piazza, then you post a pick from the view on the east side of the basketball court, which itself doesn't show the cottage....

Then you move the goalposts by claiming the issue was the comings ang goings "to and from the cottage".

How would anyone know that esp. if they had no idea who lived where?

I have seen pictures showing Toto's exact view from where he sat and his testimony stands up.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 03:05 PM   #3118
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Once again you display a serious reading comprehension issue.

Either that our you are willfully moving the goalposts.

We were not talking about what the prosecution did or did not argue. We were talking about ALL the courts finding no premeditaion. Two of the courts even invented out of whole cloth innocent reasons why they'd thought Knox had innocently carried a knife.

And all that was after you had gone on a rant that Amanda had been so hurt about Halloween that she had purposely devised a plan to kill. No one believes that except for you any maybe a handful of the most bizarre guilters!

Try again. At least have the courtesy to read the posts - in a thread you yourself started!
Massei found as a fact she carried a knife all the way from Raff's apartment. Add to that, the pair switching off their phones, I think there is a strong argument for premeditation. The police have got their minimum standard of Aggravated Murder. Why complicate it by adding unnecessary knobs and bells?
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Old 22nd April 2018, 03:06 PM   #3119
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have seen pictures showing Toto's exact view from where he sat and his testimony stands up.
Then why did you post a photo from a position that had nothing to do with this?

You have not seen that photo, that photo doesn't exist, your original point in this was that "several people" said that Curatolo could see the cottage from where he'd been sitting, not that you'd ever seen a photo.

Why are you waiting until now to claim that you are one of those "several people"? You do not know what you are talking about and are simply making things up.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 03:07 PM   #3120
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Once again you display a serious reading comprehension issue.

Either that our you are willfully moving the goalposts.

We were not talking about what the prosecution did or did not argue. We were talking about ALL the courts finding no premeditaion. Two of the courts even invented out of whole cloth innocent reasons why they'd thought Knox had innocently carried a knife.

And all that was after you had gone on a rant that Amanda had been so hurt about Halloween that she had purposely devised a plan to kill. No one believes that except for you any maybe a handful of the most bizarre guilters!

Try again. At least have the courtesy to read the posts - in a thread you yourself started!
Stop calling people by a familiar name.
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